The Rapture is True and Pre Trib

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justaname

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1 Thessalonians 1:10
and wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead-Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Paul writes to the Thessalonians describing this event. Yes the word "rapture" is never used, but what is termed is "caught up." Something similar is described in the book of Acts that happened to Phillip, Acts 8:39 yet this is a bit different.

Now some discredit this, and say we will endure the tribulation, yet from 1 Thessalonians 1:10 1 Thessalonians 5:9 we do know we are not destined for God's wrath.
Now it does say in John 16:33 "In the world you have tribulation..." Yet to keep this in context, Jesus was speaking about the realities of this planet, and the hardships they must endure until He retrieves them.

Revelation 6:16-17
and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
This is echoed in Luke 23:30 and Hosea 10:8

Notice in verse 17 the great day of their wrath has come. This is spoken at the opening of the sixth seal. I understand the church must be gone before any of God's wrath comes upon them if we are to believe Paul and his writings.

Now what post tribulation proponents say is the order of the seals, trumpets, and bowls are not sequential, and they stack them together, meaning they happen all at the same time. John's description does not present them that way, and in fact discredits that entirely.

Revelation 8:1-2
When He opened the seventh seal, there was a silence in heaven for about a half an hour. And I saw seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

Clearly after opening the seventh seal, about a half of an hour goes by, and seven angels are given seven trumpets. They do not have trumpets at the first seal through unto the sixth seal. The seals do not parallel the trumpets.

Now to be sure, all of the bowls are God's wrath. If the bowls parallel the seals then we will endure God's wrath, and Paul is contradicted, which I reject.
Revelation 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth."

The rapture is a real event, in fact the Thessalonians believed they had missed it in relation to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. Paul assures them they did not miss anything.

Shalom
 
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Retrobyter

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Shalom, justaname.

And yet, "to rescue us from the coming wrath" does NOT necessitate a removal from this earth! Furthermore, as I'm getting used to pointing out to pre-tribbers (and getting used to being ignored about it), Paul does NOT say where we go next! We meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we always be with the Lord, but WHERE WILL THE LORD BE AFTER THAT?! The verses of 1 Thes. 4:13-17 do not say!

(As an aside, one should also note that the word "harpazo" means "I snatch away," not "I catch up." Indeed, there's no word for "up" within this passage at all! It's simply that the sky and the clouds are above us; therefore, it is ASSUMED that such a snatching away would be in an upward direction.)

I'm tired and I need to get to bed. I'll deal with the rest of your arguments tomorrow, Lord willing.
 

Lively Stone

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'Snatching away' is exactly right. We will be snatched away in the sense of one who snatches something away that is owned by that person. We are Christ's rightful possession and His snatching us away as the ancient Jewish bridegroom would snatch away His beloved betrothed bride is a very appropriate use of the word, 'harpazo'.
 

Rach1370

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I believe there will be a Rapture, the Bible clearly states that we will be called to meet the Lord in the air. But it's the timing that just sticks for me. I really don't have time to get into it now, but the more I read, study, pray, the more I am coming to believe that the Rapture will occur when Jesus physically returns...at the end of it all, just before the new heaven and earth is ushered in.
It's a subject that I'm growing in...one that interests me. I honestly think that it doesn't matter so much the circumstances of His return (in terms of our salvation!), just that He will, and that we live life until then in a way that glorifies Him. I love speaking to others about the subject, but I do wish that people wouldn't fight over it so much! Remember, it's all about Jesus, and Him being crowned and glorified...I think that's something we can all get behind!
 
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veteran

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Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

I don't have time to show how pre-tribbers chop up God's Word in trying to prove their theory either, especially not to one who doesn't care to heed the simple words of our Lord Jesus in the above Scripture examples.
 
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Lively Stone

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I believe there will be a Rapture, the Bible clearly states that we will be called to meet the Lord in the air. But it's the timing that just sticks for me. I really don't have time to get into it now, but the more I read, study, pray, the more I am coming to believe that the Rapture will occur when Jesus physically returns...at the end of it all, just before the new heaven and earth is ushered in.
It's a subject that I'm growing in...one that interests me. I honestly think that it doesn't matter so much the circumstances of His return (in terms of our salvation!), just that He will, and that we live life until then in a way that glorifies Him. I love speaking to others about the subject, but I do wish that people wouldn't fight over it so much! Remember, it's all about Jesus, and Him being crowned and glorified...I think that's something we can all get behind!

Amen to that!
 

veteran

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It does matter that we find out 'now', just when Christ gathers us. Reason is because of His warning about a false one coming to work great signs and miracles on earth who will demand the whole earth to worship him instead. This is why our Lord Jesus revealed the times and seasons when to expect our gathering to Him.
 
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Rach1370

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It does matter that we find out 'now', just when Christ gathers us. Reason is because of His warning about a false one coming to work great signs and miracles on earth who will demand the whole earth to worship him instead. This is why our Lord Jesus revealed the times and seasons when to expect our gathering to Him.

Hey Veteran! Do you really think that will happen? I mean, the Bible tells us that when Jesus comes again we will KNOW!! So, if we see someone doing miracles...say, on the tv, or on the street corner...it may seem to be awesome, but we would have known instantly when Jesus returned to earth. We wouldn't be discovering 'his return' through some miraculous sign some dude is doing.
I believe that when Jesus returns it will be at the end of the 'tribulation' (although to be honest I'm not sure the whole 7 year trib is correct)....and at that point the Bible tells us that everyone will bow before Him and recognise Him...believers and unbelievers alike.
So, with that in mind...wouldn't you think it's more important to get the word out there about the certainty of His coming...."listen people, if someone has to tell you 'oh, there's this guy, doing amazing things...turn on you tv and you'll see' then that is NOT Jesus"...rather than trying to pin point when Jesus will come back, which will be as evident as lightning flashing across the world?
ps...not trying to troll for an argument here....honestly interested in your thoughts here....
 

Lively Stone

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It does matter that we find out 'now', just when Christ gathers us. Reason is because of His warning about a false one coming to work great signs and miracles on earth who will demand the whole earth to worship him instead. This is why our Lord Jesus revealed the times and seasons when to expect our gathering to Him.

Why is that such a bothersome probability for Christians? It isn't. We know the false from the true. The sheep know His voice and will not listen to another. Jesus isn't expected to come and preach or teach or do miracles or to elicit worship. He is expected to come in the clouds and gain victory over His enraged enemies and to set up His Kingdom with His righteous saints by His side.

John 10:4b-5
...his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”
 

justaname

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Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

I don't have time to show how pre-tribbers chop up God's Word in trying to prove their theory either, especially not to one who doesn't care to heed the simple words of our Lord Jesus in the above Scripture examples.
What I propose to explain this is simple. First of all, during the time of the tribulation there will be people who are converted, and those who are killed. Revelation 6:9 Revelation 7:14
We see this group mentioned again at His return. Revelation 19:14 Jesus does not return alone.

Second, the book of Revelation explains an elect of 144,000 that are sealed by God that are on earth. Revelation 7:4-8

Now, to keep all things in context Matthew 24:29-31 is a portion of a response given to a three part question.
Matthew 24:3

A key verse given by our Lord in His response to this three fold answer.
Matthew 24:9
I propose this is already happening now, just not in its fullness. I never said the church will not suffer persecution or tribulation, just not the wrath of God. I suppose for arguments sake, I could call myself a pre-wrather. :lol:
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, justaname.

As I said in post #2 above, I was just too tired to continue. Now, however, I have answered why I do not feel that the Rapture is pretribulational at all in the other Rapture thread, "What Should A Person Do If They Miss The Rapture?"

It really boils down to three main thoughts:

1. The Kingdom that Yeshua` receives, He brings with Him in the Second Coming.
2. The "Marriage Supper of the Lamb" must occur within the Kingdom at the beginning of the Millennium.
3. The "Judgment Seat of the Messiah" must occur within the Kingdom at the beginning of the Millennium.

After reading some of these posts, I should also like to point out that there are TWO main time periods yet to come: The Millennium and the Eternal State. They are different and distinct!

The character of the Millennium is described in Psalm 2:1-12, Yeshua`s parables in Matthew 13, and I Corinthians 15:22-28.
The character of the Eternal State is described in Revelation 21 and 22, I Corinthians 15:24, 28, I Peter 3:13, and the end of the parable of the Wheat and the Tares in Matthew 13:43.

What confuses people most about these distinctions is equating the parables of Matthew 13 with the entity called the "church" today instead of the "Kingdom" when Yeshua` brings it with Him when He returns at His Second Advent or Second Coming.

Both time periods are times of peace; however, the Millennium is a MILITARILY ENFORCED peace as the Messiah takes more and more control of the earth, whether other kingdoms and nations like it or not! As such, it is a time of peace that is marked with confrontation, often of the sort as described in Psalm 2:1-12. Yeshua` SUBDUES HIS ENEMIES during the Millennium! It's a peace for HIS people, regardless how others feel about that!

The Eternal State is a peace that no longer has any enemies: haSatan is gone, the "Beast" is gone, death is conquered, sin has been eliminated, as well as tears, death, sorrow, crying, and pain (Rev. 21:4). There won't be any more conflict or confrontation in the Eternal State.
 

veteran

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What I propose to explain this is simple. First of all, during the time of the tribulation there will be people who are converted, and those who are killed. Revelation 6:9 Revelation 7:14
We see this group mentioned again at His return. Revelation 19:14 Jesus does not return alone.

Second, the book of Revelation explains an elect of 144,000 that are sealed by God that are on earth. Revelation 7:4-8

Now, to keep all things in context Matthew 24:29-31 is a portion of a response given to a three part question.
Matthew 24:3

A key verse given by our Lord in His response to this three fold answer.
Matthew 24:9
I propose this is already happening now, just not in its fullness. I never said the church will not suffer persecution or tribulation, just not the wrath of God. I suppose for arguments sake, I could call myself a pre-wrather. :lol:

The Rev.19:14 verse does not prove that Christ had already gathered His Church on earth. That verse is about those in Heaven already with Him, that He brings with Him when He comes.

I think you need to study the 1 Thess.4 Scripture again, instead of just wanting to heed one little part of it that the Pre-trib School abuses...

1Thes 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Apostle Paul said he didn't want us to be ignorant about the asleep saints that have already died in Christ Jesus.


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

If we believe our Lord Jesus died and rose from the dead, so likewise will those who sleep in Jesus, and He will bring them WITH Him went He returns back to this earth. When is He returning? As a thief in the night on the day of The Lord, which Paul covers in the very next 1 Thess.5 chapter. (The Pre-trib School doesn't like to address that timing in 1 Thess.5, but only stress that we are not assigned to wrath per that Scripture. Why don't they? Because their doctrine conflicts with the false idea of a rapture prior... to the day of The Lord events! The Pre-trib School teaches that a rapture by Christ of His saints on earth happens prior... to the tribulation He mentioned. But it doesn't, not according to Scripture. The "day of the Lord" timing is when Paul showed this gathering of the saints will occur.)


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

We that are alive and remain where? On earth. We will not prevent them which are asleep. The real meaning of "prevent" is precede per Greek phthano, which means 'to be beforehand, anticipate or precede' (Strongs 5348).


16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

That shout, and voice of the archangel, with the trumpet of God, is the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11. It's the same "last trump" Paul spoke of in 1 Cor.15.

In the next 1 Thess.5 chapter, Paul says nothing of being raptured in order to not suffer God's wrath. The reason is simple, because God's wrath is upon the wicked, not His servants through Christ Jesus.


Paul then gives the timing of Christ's coming to gather His Church, continuing the matter...

1Thes 5:1-9
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Paul had no need to tell them about "the times and the seasons"? What's that about? It's about the times and the seasons of our Lord Jesus' return. He's saying they already knew the correct timing, and to show it he repeats that idea in verse 2 to them. And that verse reveals Christ's second coming is on "the day of the Lord" and will come "as a thief in the night". Quite a bit of detail of what events are to occur on that "day of the Lord" written by the Old Testament prophets. ALL... of that is included in Paul's statement there. Yet the Pre-trib School won't teach about it from the OT prophets. Why? Because it conflicts with their false idea of a rapture prior to the tribulation Jesus mentioned.


3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul is pulling directly from the Old Testament prophets with the above. That travail upon a woman with child was used as a spiritual metaphor for the deceived per the prophets. Likewise, that idea of fake peace was also covered in the OT prophets, and it is a specific time marker for the tribulation timing just prior to Christ's return. So why would Paul bring that up here like we should recognize that time when the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety"? Because it's a time marker within the times and the seasons he was talking about.

The tribulation time is going to be a time of world peace and safety, not all out WWIII like many in the Pre-trib School wrongly teach. Jesus showed us that as long as we hear of wars and rumours of wars, the end is not yet. The opposite of wars and rumours of war is that time of "Peace and safety" Paul was talking about. That's... a sign of having reached the very end, and when to expect Christ's coming very soon after that time of peace has begun.


4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

What day? The "day of the Lord" he mentioned in verse 2. What's to occur on that day of the Lord? A DESTRUCTION! Upon whom? Satan's host and the wicked, on this earth. That's why Paul mentioned that when the deceived say, "Peace and safety", that's when the destruction will come, on that "day". And that "day" is... the day of Christ's return "as a thief in the night" and the gathering of His Church per the previous chapter!


5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Are we to be found saying that "Peace and safety" when Christ appears? No way! If you're caught saying that along with the deceived, what will it mean? Some false prophets among the Thessalonians had tried to twist this matter about the times and seasons of Christ's return and our gathering to Him. So Paul made it plain in his 2nd Epistle to the Thessalonians that a specific false one, the man of sin, that Wicked, must... come first, prior to our gathering to Christ Jesus and His coming.

And that's why Paul is admonishing them to remain sober and on watch, not spiritually drunken and spiritually asleep like the deceived who will be saying "Peace and safety". Why will they be saying that anyway? Well, what's that false one of 2 Thess.2:3-4 going to do? He's going to sit in God's temple and proclaim himself as God, and exalt himself over all that is called God, or that is worshipped. Would that coming false one use "Peace and safety" to accomplish that deception? YOU BET HE WILL! So those saying that would mean they are deceived into worshipping that coming false one instead of waiting on Christ's true coming later. That's why Paul is saying to stay spiritually sober and watching.


8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(KJV)

Is Paul saying we are going to raptured to Heaven before all that? NOPE! He's simply pointing out that God's wrath is not upon His people that stay sober and on watch, and not in spiritual darkness like the deceived. What about a believer that doesn't stay sober and awake watching during that short time of "Peace and safety"? What if one in Christ declares that Peace and safety along with deceived? Those may expect God's wrath to come upon them, for they will be worshipping the false messiah instead. Our Lord Jesus will not be happy with those, and will tell them to depart away from Him, that He never knew them.
 
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justaname

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I do not have a ton of time right now, but during my studies I thought this relevant to post.
1 Thessalonians 3:13

so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. This does suggest Lord Jesus comes with His saints.
 

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I may get in trouble for posting this, and I'll surely anger at least one person, but it has to be said.

Those of you who are so blinded by doctrine that you can't comprehend what's written before you in plain English (or pretty much any other language you may speak), those of you who choose to "explain away" passages because it doesn't fit with your doctrine, those of you who change the definitions of words to make your doctrine fit, those of you who refuse to put aside your bias and preconceived beliefs to study the Bible to find out what it actually says, and those of you who simply ignore passages that refute your doctrine shouldn't worry about the rapture. You'd miss it anyway.
 
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justaname

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Veteran,
With everything you have posted, you have not attempted to reconcile Rev 6:16 and us not being destined for wrath. I easily explain my position and what you present, yet you can not do the same. You simply post what you believe. I have shown you the seals, trumpets, and bowls can not be stacked. What in what I present do you not understand? Or is it you still hold to your doctrine instead of what the text presents?
 

Rach1370

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Has anyone considered the fact that we may 'see' these passages differently, for a reason?? Just think...of the different opinions here, no one is doubting who Jesus is or that He will return, no one is proving their point by going outside scripture...they just see the different texts as saying something other. And maybe, just maybe, this is God's purpose.
Those who believe in a pre trib rapture...they encourage people, non Christian and Christians alike...whether they want to or not...to consider Jesus' imminent return. So that as they are going about their day, they may look to the clouds and ask themselves...today? It's not a bad thing to live in the light of Christ's imminent return!
And for those who consider Jesus' return to be post trib...post everything...they use their time wanting to get the message of salvation to as many as possible. But this can only be improved by the added message of Jesus' return! Our hope is not just in redemption, but in His return!
So, in a way, we all work together...pre trib's help others look up and hope, and post trib's help others look down and work!
Both are important, and both serve to glorify God...really, how can that be so bad?
 

Lively Stone

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Rach said:
So, in a way, we all work together...pre trib's help others look up and hope, and post trib's help others look down and work!

God thoughts, Rach, but as a 'pre-Tribber', I emphasize both, and not because of my eschatological beliefs, but because I am a born again child of God.
 

Rach1370

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God thoughts, Rach, but as a 'pre-Tribber', I emphasize both, and not because of my eschatological beliefs, but because I am a born again child of God.

Oh, I know! Most people do both. But I've also met lots of both who do tend to loose themselves a little! There are those who are so into the good works here on earth that they never seem to think of Christ's return! And conversely there are those who spend so much time looking into that future time when Jesus shows up, that they don't see the multitude of lost around them.
I'm not a pre tribber...but I love to read about it. I love thinking that Jesus could just show up! Actually, I think He could...I just don't think it will be in the rapture. But still, the idea that today could be the last day...that I could see Jesus today! Well, it sort of makes every day new and amazing. I think that's something every Christian could grab hold of, but still work tirelessly until the actual day arrives!
I suppose what I'm trying to say, is that I really don't understand why the second coming has to be a point of such argument between believers. Shouldn't it be something we rejoice in together? I understand debating it, discussing it, even disagreeing on it. But some people get so angry...like it's such a major point it effects salvation. I just want to yell "people, calm down...Jesus is coming, and it will be awesome...the end!"
 
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veteran

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Veteran,
With everything you have posted, you have not attempted to reconcile Rev 6:16 and us not being destined for wrath. I easily explain my position and what you present, yet you can not do the same. You simply post what you believe. I have shown you the seals, trumpets, and bowls can not be stacked. What in what I present do you not understand? Or is it you still hold to your doctrine instead of what the text presents?

I shouldn't have to reconcile the Revelation 6:16 Scripture for you. All you needed to do was to read the 15th verse just prior to know just who that will be upon...

Rev 6:15
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(KJV)

Their act of wanting the mountains and rocks to fall upon them, is because of Christ's appearance on earth at His second coming. Their wanting to hide is from wanting to hide their shame when Jesus appears.


Ps 2:9-12
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
(KJV)

Christ is to break the rebellious with that rod when He comes, but that rod is not upon His servants who remain faithful to Him when He appears.


Paul revealed this matter also in the 2 Thessalonians 1 chapter, and he showed the time of our gathering to Christ hard-linked to wrath events upon the wicked that occur at the same time...

II Th 1:3-10
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;
10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
(KJV)

Paul says rest with us, when The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels. Paul is pointing to our time of gathering to Christ with those events, not our returning with Him. Paul saying "rest with us" in waiting for Christ's coming. And those events of His wrath specifically upon the wicked, is associated with that timing.

This is why the Revelation 16:15 verse on the 6th Vial is our Lord Jesus still warning His Church on earth to wait for Him, keeping our garments (not deceived), for His coming will be "as a thief". He then gathers the wicked at Armageddon on the 7th Vial to pour out His wrath upon them... at His appearing.


Can God be accurate with His wrath upon the wicked, with it not touching His servants? YES! And there's examples written about it...

II Ki 1:9-15
9 Then the king sent unto him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him: and, behold, he sat on the top of an hill. And he spake unto him, "Thou man of God, the king hath said, Come down."

Ahaziah, the king of Israel (in Samaria over ten tribes only after God split Israel) fell and was injured, and sent messengers to inquire of Baalzebub (false god of Ekron) if he would live or not. God then told His prophet Elijah to meet the king's messengers in the way and send them back to king Ahaziah, and tell the king The LORD said he would surely die. So the king then sent fifty messengers to Elijah to bring him to the king.


10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, "If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty." And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

Whoah! Elijah petitioned for fire to come down from heaven and consume them. Elijah had been standing there talking to the captain of the fifty, and was not harmed by God's fire from heaven.


11 Again also he sent unto him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he answered and said unto him, "O man of God, thus hath the king said, Come down quickly."

So king Ahaziah sent another fifty to get Elijah and bring him to him. What do you think happened next?


12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, "If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty." And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

Same thing happened again; God brought fire down from heaven and it consumed the second group of fifty and their captain. Do you think the king sent another fifty, and they figured they'd better ask Elijah nicely to come with them?


13 And he sent again a captain of the third fifty with his fifty. And the third captain of fifty went up, and came and fell on his knees before Elijah, and besought him, and said unto him, "O man of God, I pray thee, let my life, and the life of these fifty thy servants, be precious in thy sight.
14 Behold, there came fire down from heaven, and burnt up the two captains of the former fifties with their fifties: therefore let my life now be precious in thy sight."
15 And the angel of the LORD said unto Elijah, "Go down with him: be not afraid of him. And he arose, and went down with him unto the king."
(KJV)

The third captain had heard what happened to the two previous groups, so he humbled himself before Elijah, and God, and they were spared. Do you realize man does not even have a weapon that accurate, where fire can consume a group like that while not even touching one standing next to them?

Even in 1 King 18, God brought fire down from heaven which devoured the sacrifice, wood, and all the waters poured over it, including the water poured in the trench around the altar, and that fire did not touch anything else. In Dan.3 also, Shadrach, Meshech, and Abednego were cast into a hot firey furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary, and they came out of it, their clothes not even smelling of smoke. But the servants of Babylon only got near that furnace, they were incinerated. A Fourth Man was also seen in the midst of the furnace standing with Meshech, Shadrach, and Abenego, appearing as The Son of God.

That's showing us that His wrath upon the wicked will not touch His faithful saints.
 

justaname

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Quoted from you.
This is why the Revelation 16:15 verse on the 6th Vial is our Lord Jesus still warning His Church on earth to wait for Him, keeping our garments (not deceived), for His coming will be "as a thief". He then gathers the wicked at Armageddon on the 7th Vial to pour out His wrath upon them... at His appearing.

Quoted from scripture.
Revelation 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth."

From here God's wrath is in all the bowls. Again I see the wrath starting at the sixth seal at least, but probably at the first seal. The seventh seal is the seven trumpets, and the seventh trumpet is the seven bowls. This is how it is presented by John in scripture.

Now I will not discount the idea that God can protect us in any situation, this I can see. I simply think His way of protecting us is by way of the rapture before the earth under goes His wrath. The 144,000 will be here at our return with Him. These or converts during the tribulation period are the people He warns at the sixth vile.

Again 1 Thessalonians 3:13
at the coming of the Lord Jesus with all His saints.