The Rapture is True and Pre Trib

veteran said:

Is it feeding time? Need a bottle?

Click to expand...

Did I hit a nerve? You told me to quit being "Politically Correct"...so I called a spade a spade.

Underneath you claims to only care for others and want them to know the truth, you seem to have a deep need to be right and others wrong. How many others here have asked for you to stop being so nasty, but you push that request aside as foolishness and a sign of our 'character assassination'...yeah, we ask you to stop being nasty as part of our devious plan to push doctrines we found under a rock rather than in the bible. I find that sort of amusing really, considering the scriptures you provide for your 'proof' of a future, literal millennium, don't even speak of it...you have to do a whole lot of fancy work to even think it!

Is the raising of the dead, and the rapture of God's chosen people a pre tribulation event?


Let's see what exactly Jesus taught concerning the resurrection.


John:6:54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


John:6:39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John:6:40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Joh:6:44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


What did the people of Jesus' time believe, did they believe in a pre tribulation resurrection?


John:11:23: Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
John:11:24: Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


Unless there's more than one last day, and there's not, I'd have to say that the pre trib and mid trib people don't have a leg to stand on. And furthermore, I believe that they are teaching a false doctrine.

I believe they are preaching a false doctrine too brother ronnie. The question though is, why do they do that?

Because they follow and listen to "another spirit". Thus God has blinded them.

justaname said:

What does the resurrection of the dead have to do the rapture of the church?

Click to expand...

Surely you're not serious in not knowing how the resurrection and Christ's return are directly related. Try 1 Thess.4 and 1 Corinthians 15.

Do you think yourself smarter than the text, or the church destined for wrath, and scripture a lie?

Click to expand...

The Scriptures aren't lying, it's men's doctrines that lie. The wrath which Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5 he linked with the time of "sudden destruction" he also taught there. And that he linked with the time of Christ's coming as a thief on the day of The Lord.

The "day of the Lord" event per both the Old Testament and New Testament Books is what ends... the tribulation Jesus mentioned.


But the doctrines of men, like the Pre-trib Rapture theorists, try to teach that 'wrath' Paul mentioned happens DURING... the tribulation.

justaname said:

I am saying the rapture and Christ's return are not at the exact same time.

Click to expand...

What your espousing is a doctrine of men from the Pre-trib Rapture school; it's not taught in God's Word.


What is taught, is a one-time return of our Lord Jesus Christ that ends the tribulation at the same time as He gathers us.

Christ's coming "as a thief in the night" per Paul and Peter is a term for the deceived being surprised when Christ returns. That's why our Lord Jesus warned that those who do not watch won't know in what hour He will come and He will come on them "as a thief"...

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV)


That's why Paul said the following about Christ's faithful not being overtaken (in deception) on that day "as a thief"...

1Thes 5:4
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(KJV)


That day Peter linked with "the day of the Lord" event first taught back in the Old Testament prophets...

2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)

That's the "sudden destruction" upon the wicked that Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.5. That's the day that the Pre-trib Rapture school has tried to move up to occur prior... to the tribulation. But instead per God's Word, that's the day of Christ's return, day of our gathering to Him, and the day of destruction upon the wicked to end the tribulation.

justaname said:

What does the resurrection of the dead have to do the rapture of the church?
Do you think yourself smarter than the text, or the church destined for wrath, and scripture a lie?

My entire claim has been built on the text of the Bible. Nothing I have written can be disproven.

To be absent of the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8
Thereby we can assume that when the Lord comes back, so does everyone present with him. On that last day they will be resurrected to their new bodies.

I think men are fearing their doctrines are being disproven and their abject view of the scriptures are being exposed. They attempt to defend their doctrines by becoming accusers, an old tactic, but one as transparent as glass.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure people realize how complicated and spread out the pretrib doctrine has become. It has to be that way because no one would be stupid or naive enough to believe it otherwise.


1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.


There's more to that statement than just not being appointed to wrath. If you would read what happens to unbelievers in the end of Revelation, you'd understand what wrath we're not appointed to suffer. The destruction comes upon those are saying, "Peace and safety."

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The dead in Christ must rise before there can be a rapture.


Revelation 20:4-5

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Unless the beast, his image, and his mark are pretrib, then the first resurrection occurs after the tribulation. If the dead must be raised before those who are alive will be caught up, then there cannot be a rapture prior to the tribulation.



Food for thought:

Luke 17:30-37

“It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. Remember Lot’s wife! Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

“Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

Revelation 19:11-21

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Jesus said that it would be like the days of Noah and Lot. God gave Noah seven days notice on when the flood would begin, but He gave Noah additional instructions for what to bring into the ark. Noah and his family did not enter the ark until the rain began to fall. Lot endured great tribulation in Sodom (2 Peter 2:7-8) prior to his escape, and he was told of the destruction the night before. In Exodus, the Israelites endured great tribulation, too, but they did not escape Egypt until after the plagues were finished.

The destruction of the wicked and the salvation of the righteous happening at the same time is no foreign concept in the Bible.

2 Peter 2:9
If this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Matthew 24:30-31
“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Pretrib doctrine requires that the elect be Israel, otherwise it falls apart completely. However, this creates a distinction between the Church and Israel.

Galatians 3:7-9
Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Galatians 3:26-29
So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1 Peter 1:1-2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

justaname said:

Just as the Jews believed Jesus bringing a physical kingdom at His first arrival, you seem to expect wrath at the churches gathering.
What you are doing is confusing separate events into one.

Click to expand...

TWC is not confusing those events, you are.

And it's because of the doctrines of men of the pre-trib rapture theory which are not Biblical.

Only the faithful among Christ's Church will not experience God's wrath at Christ's returning to gather His Church on the day of The Lord.

There will be a sealing of the 144,000, and others will turn to Christ, during the tribulation. These will endure the tribulation. The church is not destined for wrath; that starts at least at the opening of the sixth seal. Those who stack the seals and trumpets and bowls deny the text, John, and God.

Click to expand...

The majority on the 144,000 list of Rev.7 aren't even Jews!

Per God's Word:
"house of Judah" = tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi = Jews
"house of Israel" = all the rest of the tribes, 10 tribes = non-Jew Israelites.

So only 3 tribes on that Rev.7 list represent Jews today. The rest represent scattered remnants of the lost ten tribes, which per archaeology mainly migrated to Asia Minor and Europe, and founded the western Christian naitons!

Furthermore, that 144,000 group are elect sealed servants of Christ Jesus! That's what the main subject is about in Rev.7, the SEALING of God's elect for the tribulation time!

Then at Rev.7:9, John is given a vision of a "great multitude" out of ALL nations that came out of tribulation, having washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb. That's the elect Gentiles that belong to Christ Jesus. They go through the tribulation too, as that shows they went through it to wash their robes in Christ Jesus. Rev.15 reveals more about their having gotten the victory over the beast, and his image, etc.

This matter is not about some political side-show. The minute you open up God's Word for yourself on the matter, and ask Him for understanding, then He will show you. But you first have to quit listening to those pre-trib doctrines you're listening to. I well realize that we each have to listen to God in His Word over anything... man teaches. That's why I implore you to go back verify with God's help.

justaname said:

Revelation 7:4

And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

All of the tribes are described as the sons of Israel.

If it is you can explain the rapture or snatching away without stacking the seals, trumpets, and bowls, without placing the church under God's wrath I could be more swayed to your point of view. As it stands I see no way yet. Also it is written that Christ returns with all His saints, not to all His saints. This means His church must be with Him before His final return.

Please see this in my point of view, I am not some know it all. I seek truth, under the guidance of the HolySpirit. Many of the points made by all are relevant, yet there is only one truth that is God's. His timing is just that, His! We are servants seeking to sharpen ourselves against each other.

I can only pray you seek after your own advice.

Click to expand...

I think I've already proven how well I understand the pre-trib rapture doctrine and its various ideas. But understanding that doctrine really isn't the point, because we should both... want to understand what God's Word teaches regardless of man's doctrine.

1. Per Bible history, God split old Israel into TWO separate kingdoms. Documentation of that starts at 1 Kings 11 and continues until the northern ten tribed kingdom of the "house of Israel" was totally... removed from the holy land, captive to Assyria and the land of the Medes. Many brethren has never studied that Bible history, which is a must to understand who those 144,000 of Rev.7 are.

2. to this day, the majority of Israelites, the ten tribes, have never been joined with Judah (i.e., Jews of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, which made up the southern "kingdom of Judah" per that same 1 Kings 11 > history.)

3. Per the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.), the ten tribes were still scattered abroad to Assyria and the land of the Medes in his day, and he said they were too numerous a people to count.

4. Josephus also said the title of 'Jew' first began to be officially used for the small remnant of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi that returned from Babylon back to Jerusalem. He said all living in the lands of Judea also took that title of 'Jew'.

5. The rest of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi chose to stay... in Babylon after the 70 years captivity. Then they, like the ten tribes were around 200 years before, were also scattered among the nations. This is how Jews have migrated throughout the nations.

6. The Jews kept their heritage as being of Israel. The ten tribes did not, for God foretold they would be lost, per the Book of Hosea.

7. God has promised to join both 'houses' back in the holy lands of promise in final, and that prophecy is set only for Christ's second coming.

8. Thusly, the Jews and lost Israel are still... two separate nations today, even though they all are from Jacob as their father.

9. Therefore, when the tribes of Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Isaachar, Zebulon, Joseph, are mentioned, as per Rev.7, those are NOT Jews. (Dan is left out of that Rev.7 list, but included in the Ezekiel 48 list).

10. Only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi on that Rev.7 are Jews.


Thus the real idea of that 144,000 per God's Word, is that 2/3rds of those are sealed Israelites who think they are Gentiles, having been scattered centuries ago among the Gentiles. Only a small remnant among them realize their heritage from old Israel. What does that mean? It means a LOT... of those scattered Israelites of the ten tribes are CHRISTIANS dwelling among Gentile Christians!

justaname said:

Revelation 7:4

And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

All of the tribes are described as the sons of Israel.

If it is you can explain the rapture or snatching away without stacking the seals, trumpets, and bowls, without placing the church under God's wrath I could be more swayed to your point of view. As it stands I see no way yet. Also it is written that Christ returns with all His saints, not to all His saints. This means His church must be with Him before His final return.

Please see this in my point of view, I am not some know it all. I seek truth, under the guidance of the HolySpirit. Many of the points made by all are relevant, yet there is only one truth that is God's. His timing is just that, His! We are servants seeking to sharpen ourselves against each other.

I can only pray you seek after your own advice.

Click to expand...

Well, here's what Paul taught in the 1 Thess.4 Chapter again, a chapter that the pre-trib rapture schools strongly admits.


1Thes 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

The subject? Those in Christ Jesus that have already died. Paul doesn't want us to be sorrow thinking those are lost, for they are not.


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

Which ones is Paul talking about there? Still about the saints that have already died. Paul says if we believe our Lord Jesus rose from the dead, even those saints that have already died, He will bring with Him. What's that bring with Him about? It's about the resurrection at Christ's return, those saints He brings from HEAVEN back to earth with Him.

But what about the saints still alive on earth? Paul covered that too...

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul was clear there will also be saints still alive on the earth when He comes. That's 2 separate groups of saints 1) the asleep saints Jesus brings WITH Him from Heaven when He comes, and then the saints still alive on earth at that same coming. Paul is even more specific with that word "prevent", because the original Greek word actually means 'precede' or go beforehand. He's simply saying the saints still alive on earth will in no way 'precede' the asleep saints to be with Jesus.


16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

There's that same trump Paul declared in the 1 Cor.15 Scripture, the "last trump". The last trump per Revelation is the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11. It occurs along with the last 3rd Woe period.

Our Lord Jesus will DESCEND from Heaven with the sound of that trumpet, and then the resurrection of the saints He brings with Him, and then... what?


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)

Then, at that same time of the resurrection, we which are still alive and remain on earth, will be changed at the twinkling of an eye, and caught up together with those asleep saints Christ brings with Him at His coming. The saints still alive on earth being 'changed' is part of this, even though it is written in the 1 Cor.15 and not here specifically.

Then what happens after both groups of saints are gathered together? Then we all go to Jerusalem per Zech.14.

The time of that resurrection is also the timing of "the day of the Lord" events, the time of God's consuming fire burning the elements of man's works off this earth, and the time of God's wrath upon the wicked involving the Armageddon events. And all that is going to happen very quickly.

justaname.

do not let others lead you to believe what is contrary to your beliefs. if things don't feel right or sound right then you are probably right. as long as you have a seeking heart then God will warn you. which i believe he is doing by what you are saying. let me reassure you with what i tell you about the rapture to confirm your beliefs. i am not here to argue points but it sounds like you need truth to confirm your beliefs. so this is for you and any others that truely seek the truth.

i agree in pretrib and mid trib rapture. both have convincing scriptural evidence but i lean more towards pretrib then mid trib rapture. the tribulation was meant for isreal and not for the gentiles. the gentiles will be dragged into it but the focus was not on us. it was not designed for the church or gentile but both will be effected. there are 3 basic things that the tribulation is all about and they are the revelation of Jesus Christ to his people(the book is called The Revelation of Jesus Christ) , the rebellion of isreal(which leads to the rebellion of the world), and the establishing of righteousness. the last half of the trib is God pouring out his wrath because we have a problem and people are buying in on the problem and refusing to turn to God so God is pouring out his wrath in the llast 3 and a half years. i fully expect to be gone by the middle because first of all that period of time was not designed for the church but for isreal. second God never appointed us to wrath but the unbelievers and isreal. so i am pretty sure we will be gone sometime before the last 3 and a half years whether that is pre trib or mid trib i don't plan on being around before the wrath kicks in. because the wrath is not for his bride but is dealing with the sin, wickness, and ect of isreal. (1 thes 5:9, rom 5:9) show that his church will be saved from the wrath.

pre trib scriptures
1 thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. sleep is referred to as death but there are 3 deaths. the first in scripture is dead in tresspasses and sins and we are separated from God(eph 2:1). the second death is the lake of fire(rev 20:14). the third death is physical death. (v 14-18) is talking all about comfort and not written for the time and ect about the rapture. v13-18 show how it will work and 1 thes 5:1-9 tells us when it will occur. 1thes 4:13-18 if you look at the context you will see that the main point is to comfort, encourage each other. 1 thes 5:9-11 are encouraging words again showing us that we are not going to take part in his wrath.

i can post other scripture to prove mid and post trib if you prefer. these are the main verses for pre trib but by no means are they all of them. i hope this helps.

if anyone wishes to debate these points then i will not respond but if anyone wishes to discuss them with open minds then i am willing to listen to your views and see what scripture you stand on and we can go from there.

may God be with us

7angels said:

justaname.

i agree in pretrib and mid trib rapture. both have convincing scriptural evidence but i lean more towards pretrib then mid trib rapture.

Click to expand...

Romans:3:4: God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


John:12:48: He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


John:6:44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John:6:39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John:6:40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John:6:54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

justaname said:

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

There's that same trump Paul declared in the 1 Cor.15 Scripture, the "last trump". The last trump per Revelation is the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11. It occurs along with the last 3rd Woe period.

This is the leap I still do not accept, as it is not described as the last trump by Paul. I comprehend what it is you are saying, yet the leap you make, I can not. To me it is not scripturally sound. I honestly appreciate the time you have taken to attempt to explain your view, yet we must agree to disagree.

Click to expand...

And I cannot grasp why... the mention of that trumpet in both those 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 Scriptures are a "leap" for you.

You are aware Paul's main subject in 1 Cor.15 is the resurrection, the raising of the dead, right? How then, haven't you realized that's also his subject in the 1 Thess.4:16-17 verses???


The resurrection is about putting on the kind of body our Lord Jesus has had since His resurrection. So we're not to get confused with the difference of those that have already died in Christ that are 'asleep', and those of us that will still be alive on earth when Jesus comes.

Those us still alive on earth won't have died. So we will not need to be 'raised from the dead' like those who now sleep in Jesus. But we will... need to go through a change to the same type body our Lord Jesus has. The asleep saints will be raised to that type body, and we who remain alive on earth to that time will be 'changed' to that type body.

And Paul teaches that 'change' will occur quickly, at the "twinkling of an eye", fast as one can blink. It's almost at an instant.

The only difference with 1 Thess.4:16-17 about that 'change' for those still alive on earth, is that Paul did not cover it there, but went past it to the "caught up" (harpazo) idea. That "caught up" idea actually does cover the being 'changed' idea of 1 Cor.15, because of Scripture like 2 Corinthians 12 about the one Paul said was 'caught up' to Paradise, to the third Heaven. And he said whether that was in the body, or out of the body, he did not know, that God knew.

Per the John 5:28-29 Scripture, at the sound of His voice, all will be either of the "resurrection of life", or of the "resurrection of damnation". But everybody is going to be in a 'resurrection' type body when that occurs at Christ's coming. The only difference is where one is... when that trumpet sounds.


As for Paul mentioning the "last trump" for that "trumpet", that is... the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11, the same "trump of God" that sounds per the 1 Thess.4:16-17 Scripture. And if you'll look more closely at the events AFTER the 7th Trumpet, you'll notice that's when Christ takes rule over all, and the time of reward for the saints happens.

Matthew 13:24-29
Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

“‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

Matthew 13:36-43
Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Revelation 14:14-20

I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”

So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

...CONSIDER DANEIL 12:12 When you consider the time area of the rapture. Consider who the rapture is for.
Many will be beheaded becasue they will not take the beast's mark. Those unwilling to take the mark will be christains. Consider the first half of Tribulation is not a time of wrath but of bounty... no need for a rapture...yet
However, the second half is a time of woe and therefore a need for the rapture. When does Jesus return? at Armageddon... the end of Tribulation and therefore no need for any rapture. So... consider daneil 12:12.

terry
so you believe in a mid trib rapture. nothing wrong with that. there is enough evidence to support your views as being true.

peace be with you