The Rapture is True and Pre Trib

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ronniechoate34

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John:14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


It's absolute insanity to be pouring over this issue. This matter has been forever settled
in heaven already, and the answer to this connundrum should be obvious to anyone with enough brain cells to clack two sticks together.


Psalms:119:89: For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.


Now pay close attention to this please.


John:6:44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It's like people have gone crazy or something. :wacko:
 

TWC

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John:14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


It's absolute insanity to be pouring over this issue. This matter has been forever settled
in heaven already, and the answer to this connundrum should be obvious to anyone with enough brain cells to clack two sticks together.


Psalms:119:89: For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.


Now pay close attention to this please.


John:6:44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It's like people have gone crazy or something. :wacko:

There really should be no debate at all, but it's a doctrine that people have been taught for most of their lives. It's often accompanied by a false teaching about salvation (just pray the prayer and you'll be saved) as a scare tactic. Pray this prayer and you'll never have to worry about that nasty, burning hell, and if you act now, you won't have to deal with the great tribulation and the antichrist.

Preachers selling fire insurance love using the rapture as a selling point.
 

justaname

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And I cannot grasp why... the mention of that trumpet in both those 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 Scriptures are a "leap" for you.

You are aware Paul's main subject in 1 Cor.15 is the resurrection, the raising of the dead, right? How then, haven't you realized that's also his subject in the 1 Thess.4:16-17 verses???


The resurrection is about putting on the kind of body our Lord Jesus has had since His resurrection. So we're not to get confused with the difference of those that have already died in Christ that are 'asleep', and those of us that will still be alive on earth when Jesus comes.

Those us still alive on earth won't have died. So we will not need to be 'raised from the dead' like those who now sleep in Jesus. But we will... need to go through a change to the same type body our Lord Jesus has. The asleep saints will be raised to that type body, and we who remain alive on earth to that time will be 'changed' to that type body.

And Paul teaches that 'change' will occur quickly, at the "twinkling of an eye", fast as one can blink. It's almost at an instant.

The only difference with 1 Thess.4:16-17 about that 'change' for those still alive on earth, is that Paul did not cover it there, but went past it to the "caught up" (harpazo) idea. That "caught up" idea actually does cover the being 'changed' idea of 1 Cor.15, because of Scripture like 2 Corinthians 12 about the one Paul said was 'caught up' to Paradise, to the third Heaven. And he said whether that was in the body, or out of the body, he did not know, that God knew.

Per the John 5:28-29 Scripture, at the sound of His voice, all will be either of the "resurrection of life", or of the "resurrection of damnation". But everybody is going to be in a 'resurrection' type body when that occurs at Christ's coming. The only difference is where one is... when that trumpet sounds.


As for Paul mentioning the "last trump" for that "trumpet", that is... the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11, the same "trump of God" that sounds per the 1 Thess.4:16-17 Scripture. And if you'll look more closely at the events AFTER the 7th Trumpet, you'll notice that's when Christ takes rule over all, and the time of reward for the saints happens.
So do you believe in a bodily resurrection or the resurrection of a spirit body? Is Jesus the Christ not flesh and bone like he says? Did He not appear and eat with His own?
...CONSIDER DANEIL 12:12 When you consider the time area of the rapture. Consider who the rapture is for.
Many will be beheaded becasue they will not take the beast's mark. Those unwilling to take the mark will be christains. Consider the first half of Tribulation is not a time of wrath but of bounty... no need for a rapture...yet
However, the second half is a time of woe and therefore a need for the rapture. When does Jesus return? at Armageddon... the end of Tribulation and therefore no need for any rapture. So... consider daneil 12:12.
This is why I say the church must be gone at least by the opening of the sixth seal. I can not contend as others to think I know it all as to how it will unfold, only that evidence of the text supports the church will not endure the wrath of God. Quite honestly I am tired of debating, because minds are already decided; I just hope share the light God gave me on the subject.

Jesus will return with all His saints as it is written, and the church will not endure God's wrath. In this I am content, and do not worry for today let alone tomorrow. Those who are His saints will be gathered at His appointed time, and those who are sleeping are already with Him.

My God's Love be to all the brethren, and let this not divide us in Christ.

Peace be with you all.
 

tgwprophet

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TWC wrote: Preachers selling fire insurance love using the rapture as a selling point.

Good point TWC, For in so much as I do not wish to attacck churches that have spent many decades or even centuries trying to understand scripture, it seems so very painted with the view of their pews being filled. The first half of tribulation is a time of abundance not temptation. Once that abundance is given... the temptation is to "keep it" which can only be done by taking the ( now manditory ) mark of the beast. It is made mandatory half way through tribulation and therefore any rapture would not be necessary until the mark is made manditory. Which is why i added - consider Daniel 12:12. The churches also fill their pews by telling their congregation that EVERY christain goes in the rapture... but, understand that is false... it fills pews but none the less, is false. Christains unwillingg to take the mark of the beast will bee persecuted even unto being beheaded - guess what.. they were NOT raptured - yet they did not deny Jesus! Consider the rapture as an evacuation of christains unable to prevent anyone with installing them with the beast's mark.

Filling the pews by spreading false summations to their congregration is something God will allow them to atone.

Why do I believe in a "rapture" --- one main reason... What of the believers unable to stop the evil ones from forcing the mark upon them? If they are too young - too old... too weak, physically or mentally... in a coma. in prison - rightly or wrongfully. or in any postition of which they cannot escape and their consent is not needed. Certainly, the rapture does have merit.
 

veteran

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So do you believe in a bodily resurrection or the resurrection of a spirit body? Is Jesus the Christ not flesh and bone like he says? Did He not appear and eat with His own?

Can a flesh body like we have enter a room without going through an open door like our Lord Jesus did? Can the angels eat man's food? Can man eat angel's food? Have angels appeared on earth with the image of man per God's Word? Did Paul not really mean what he said in 1 Cor.15:50?

Obviously, the resurrection body is NOT... the same as our flesh body of today. Our bodies we have today gets sicks, dies, feels hot and cold and pain, etc. Our Lord Jesus in Matt.22:30 and Mark 12:25 said those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven". And Apostle Paul taught the resurrection body is one of "incorruption", a "spiritual body", not one of "corruption" like our flesh bodies of today.

So what kind of picture does all that draw for you? A flesh body like we have today? Or a ghost-like body? Isn't that really what you're trying to get me to say, an idea that the resurrection body is some ghost disimbodied spirit state?
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

LOL! What sort of food is "angel's food?" Besides cake, what do we really know? You're surmising that there IS such a thing! I propose that angels DO eat "man's food," because first and foremost, an "angel" (Greek: aggelos) is a "MESSENGER" and that may as easily be a HUMAN messenger as a supernatural messenger! We assume too much when it comes to angelology, which is FAR too spotty when it comes to Scriptural background. Not everywhere do the word "aggelos" in Greek and the word "mal'akh" in Hebrew refer to some supernatural being, and you CERTAINLY should NOT be using an English translation or concordance when it comes to THIS topic! Quite the opposite, there are many times when they refer to HUMAN messengers! (Gen. 32:3, 6; Num. 20:14, 21; 22:5; 24:12; Deut. 2:6; Josh. 6:17, 25; 7:22; Judges 6:35; 7:24; 9:31; 11:12, 13, 14, 17, 19; 1 Sam. 6:21; 11:3, 4, 7, 9; 16:19; 19:11, 14, 15, 16, 20, 21; 23:27; 25:14, 42; 2 Sam. 2:5; 3:12, 14, 26; 5:11; 11:4, 19, 22, 23, 25; 12:27; 1 Kings 19:2; 20:2, 5, 9, 22:13; 2 Kings 1:2, 3, 5, 16; 5:10; 6:32, 33; 7:15; 9:18; 10:8; 14:8; 16:7; 17:4; 19:9, 14, 23; 1 Chron. 14:1; 19:2, 16; 2 Chron. 18:12; 35:21; 36:15, 16; Neh. 6:3; Job 1:14; 33:23; Prov. 13:17; 16:14; 17:11; Isa. 14:32; 18:2; 30:4; 33:7; 37:9, 14; 44:26; Jer. 27:3; Ezek. 17:15; 23:16, 40; 30:9; Nah. 2:13; Mal. 2:7; 3:1; Matt. 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 7:24, 27; 9:52; James 2:25; and Rev. 22:6-9. All these verses use the SAME WORDS and yet are indisputedly human beings who were messengers!)

I would even contend that 1 Peter 1:12 is talking about HUMAN messengers because of verse 10! They are the HUMAN messengers of God, the PROPHETS!
 

veteran

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Shalom, veteran.

LOL! What sort of food is "angel's food?" Besides cake, what do we really know? You're surmising that there IS such a thing! I propose that angels DO eat "man's food," because first and foremost, an "angel" (Greek: aggelos) is a "MESSENGER" and that may as easily be a HUMAN messenger as a supernatural messenger! We assume too much when it comes to angelology, which is FAR too spotty when it comes to Scriptural background. Not everywhere do the word "aggelos" in Greek and the word "mal'akh" in Hebrew refer to some supernatural being, and you CERTAINLY should NOT be using an English translation or concordance when it comes to THIS topic! Quite the opposite, there are many times when they refer to HUMAN messengers! (Gen. 32:3, 6; Num. 20:14, 21; 22:5; 24:12; Deut. 2:6; Josh. 6:17, 25; 7:22; Judges 6:35; 7:24; 9:31; 11:12, 13, 14, 17, 19; 1 Sam. 6:21; 11:3, 4, 7, 9; 16:19; 19:11, 14, 15, 16, 20, 21; 23:27; 25:14, 42; 2 Sam. 2:5; 3:12, 14, 26; 5:11; 11:4, 19, 22, 23, 25; 12:27; 1 Kings 19:2; 20:2, 5, 9, 22:13; 2 Kings 1:2, 3, 5, 16; 5:10; 6:32, 33; 7:15; 9:18; 10:8; 14:8; 16:7; 17:4; 19:9, 14, 23; 1 Chron. 14:1; 19:2, 16; 2 Chron. 18:12; 35:21; 36:15, 16; Neh. 6:3; Job 1:14; 33:23; Prov. 13:17; 16:14; 17:11; Isa. 14:32; 18:2; 30:4; 33:7; 37:9, 14; 44:26; Jer. 27:3; Ezek. 17:15; 23:16, 40; 30:9; Nah. 2:13; Mal. 2:7; 3:1; Matt. 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 7:24, 27; 9:52; James 2:25; and Rev. 22:6-9. All these verses use the SAME WORDS and yet are indisputedly human beings who were messengers!)

I would even contend that 1 Peter 1:12 is talking about HUMAN messengers because of verse 10! They are the HUMAN messengers of God, the PROPHETS!

Your propensity for assigning God's Heavenly order as if it were a flesh earthly existence was already noted on another thread. That kind of fleshy thinking is carnal, and denies a separation between flesh and spirit according to God's Word.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

Your propensity for assigning God's Heavenly order as if it were a flesh earthly existence was already noted on another thread. That kind of fleshy thinking is carnal, and denies a separation between flesh and spirit according to God's Word.

I quite disagree. I believe that your "separation between flesh and spirit" is fabricated to theological specifications and has NOTHING to do with God's Word!
 

veteran

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Shalom, veteran.

I quite disagree. I believe that your "separation between flesh and spirit" is fabricated to theological specifications and has NOTHING to do with God's Word!


John 3:6
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(KJV)

Rom 8:4-8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(KJV)

1 Cor 15:48-50
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(KJV)


You don't know what you're talking about. Heeding the Jews' religion has blinded you.
 

Retrobyter

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...

You don't know what you're talking about. Heeding the Jews' religion has blinded you.

Oh, and you do?! Tell me, this: How would you define "flesh" and "spirit?" Be careful how you answer; your answer will belie your understanding!

And, when one says, "Heeding the Jews' religion has blinded you," just goes to show how LITTLE one knows about the Jewish roots of his own faith! Don't be ignorant!
 

veteran

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Oh, and you do?! Tell me, this: How would you define "flesh" and "spirit?" Be careful how you answer; your answer will belie your understanding!

And, when one says, "Heeding the Jews' religion has blinded you," just goes to show how LITTLE one knows about the Jewish roots of his own faith! Don't be ignorant!

The Jews' religion (Judaism) has a problem with believing that God's Salvation will not involve flesh bodies like we have today. It cannot grasp non-carnal matters, like this one. And a lot of those old Jewish beliefs have accompanied Jews that have converted to Christ Jesus as The Messiah. Acts 15 is proof of how that started among them even in the Apostle's days.


Nor does Christianity have anything to do with some "Jewish roots" idea!

That's a falsehood, always has been a falsehood, because the Jews per history only involved the 3 tribed "house of Judah" that were separated by God from the larger group of 10 tribed Israelites of the "house of Israel" (1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 18). The title of 'Jew' comes from the sole tribe of Judah. The tribes of Benjamin and Levi joined with Judah at Jerusalem to form the southern kingdom of the "house of Judah" per God's Word and history.

Christians DO NOT have to go through any fleshy priesthood system, but to The Father through Jesus Christ only. Christ Jesus ONLY... is our High Priest, not some flesh man nor some fleshy religion of men like Judaism which originated from the Babylonian Talmud sage writings that formed their 'tradition'.
 

veteran

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no reason to be antisemetic veteran.

No reason for you to claim that I am such a thing.

Maybe you do believe the lie that Christianity originated from the doctrines of Judaism.

Study a little history about the origin of the name Jew per the Jewish historian Josephus, and you might learn enough to actually have a valid comment on this subject.
 

rockytopva

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Whether your...

Pre-Trib
Mid-Trib
Post-Trib

You are commanded in scripture to be ready for it to happen at any moment and at and day... Thus the doctrine of expectancy...

[sup]38[/sup]For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
[sup]39[/sup]And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[sup]40[/sup]Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[sup]41[/sup]Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[sup]42[/sup]Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
[sup]43[/sup]But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
[sup]44[/sup]Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
[sup]45[/sup]Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
[sup]46[/sup]Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
[sup]47[/sup]Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
[sup]48[/sup]But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
[sup]49[/sup]And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
[sup]50[/sup]The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
[sup]51[/sup]And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 24:38-51
 

teamventure

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No reason for you to claim that I am such a thing.

Maybe you do believe the lie that Christianity originated from the doctrines of Judaism.

Study a little history about the origin of the name Jew per the Jewish historian Josephus, and you might learn enough to actually have a valid comment on this subject.

listen to yourself. christianity didn't come from judaism, but Christ was a jew and so was josephus. seems like you're a fool. oh and it says ye shall know them by their fruits and that the greatest of these is love. you are the least loving person on these boards. time to check yourself brother. if that's what you are...
 

veteran

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listen to yourself. christianity didn't come from judaism, but Christ was a jew and so was josephus. seems like you're a fool. oh and it says ye shall know them by their fruits and that the greatest of these is love. you are the least loving person on these boards. time to check yourself brother. if that's what you are...

Like I said, Christianity did NOT... originate from Judaism.

Even Judaism today is... Phariseeism, their philosophical traditions that began with the 70 years Babylon captivity and return to Jerusalem. That's why their main treatise is the Babylonian Talmud writings, and not Old Testament Scripture. And the fact that it's called the 'Babylonian' Talmud should make it clear when that tradition began, and what they were influenced by.

You prove yourself to be a hypocrite, because you falsely accuse me of anti-Semitism and hate for pointing out historical facts about the religion of Judaism, facts that even Jewish scholars admit.

Here's what Apostle Paul said "the Jews' religion" made him do...

Gal 1:13-14
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
(KJV)


Christ Jesus had something to say to those Pharisees and scribes about their 'tradition' too...

Matt 15:2-9
2 "Why do Thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread."
3 But He answered and said unto them, "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, 'Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.'
5 But ye say, 'Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free.' Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 'This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me.
9 But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.'
(KJV)

Mark 7:7-9
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And He said unto them, "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."
(KJV)
 

teamventure

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well veteran, although they have it wrong about their belief of the messiah, we still read the same torah..
 

veteran

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well veteran, although they have it wrong about their belief of the messiah, we still read the same torah..

You take me totally wrong when I speak of that history, wrongly thinking I'm against my Jewish brethren. The "mystery of iniquity" is not something that's supposed to be a secret for us who have believed on Christ Jesus unto Salvation. That mystery of iniquity involves much worse falseness than Judaism's refusal of Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

Christ taught a distinction between true Jews, and false Jews...

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(KJV)

That was specifically what Christ's parable of the 'tares' of the field was about. We are to understand it (Matt.13).

In simple terms, there's a false element among Judah that has deceived the majority of those among them that truly do love our Heavenly Father. Paul noted them, as did the other Apostles at Jerusalem, per Acts 15, 2 Cor.11:26 and Gal.2:4. Those specifically are the wolves in sheep's clothing. Not all Jews, but those who claim to be but are not, and do lie, like Jesus said. That's why Paul was led to persecute Christ's Church before he was converted, delivering up Christians in chains to be brought back to Jerusalem to be jailed, wtih some of them executed. It's why Paul had to appeal to Caesar in Rome instead of allowing the Jews to try and execute him in Jerusalem.

That's who is deceiving true Judah today, a false element mixed among the Jews.


A little Bible history lesson?

Judg 2:2-4
2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed My voice: why have ye done this?
3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
4 And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept.
(KJV)

Those among Judah today who love The LORD should be weeping, because of those false ones among them that are a "snare" to them. No, but instead, Judah is still... doing this same thing they did there in the time of Judges, making leagues with the sons of the enemy that dwells right among them.


Judg 2:16-18
16 Nevertheless the LORD raised up judges, which delivered them out of the hand of those that spoiled them.
17 And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; but they did not so.
18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.
(KJV)

Just who... were those which The LORD was talking about which vexed Israel then, and oppressed them, that spoil His people? He's going to reveal it here in a little bit.


Judg 2:19-23
19 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way.
20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto My voice;
21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.
(KJV)


What nations were those? The nations of Canaan, the Canaanites, pagan idolaters.

Per Joshua 9, they crept in among Israel. Per 1 Kings 9:19-22 they were still there. Per 1 Chron.2:55 they became the SCRIBES among Judah. Per Ezra 2, 8 and 9, they returned with the remnant of the "house of Judah" from Babylon back to Jerusalem as Nethinim priests; Nethinim means 'given to temple service', the old Canaanite temple bondservants under Solomon. Per Nehemiah 3:26 they took up dwelling right in the city of David at the tower of Ophel.

By the time of Christ's first coming, the stage was set, as those who had crept in among Judah that are false Jews were prepared to contest Him; had Him crucified even, all in order to keep the people in bondage under their false 'traditions' added to Israelite history. They still dwell hidden among Judah today, and will continue as the "tares" until Christ returns to separate them from true Judah. And then... there shall no more be the Canaanite in the House of The LORD of hosts (Zech.14:21).

This is why Jews for Jesus, Messianic Jews, etc., need to be very careful of what and who they follow from Jewish traditions.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.
The Jews' religion (Judaism) has a problem with believing that God's Salvation will not involve flesh bodies like we have today. It cannot grasp non-carnal matters, like this one. And a lot of those old Jewish beliefs have accompanied Jews that have converted to Christ Jesus as The Messiah. Acts 15 is proof of how that started among them even in the Apostle's days.


Nor does Christianity have anything to do with some "Jewish roots" idea!

That's a falsehood, always has been a falsehood, because the Jews per history only involved the 3 tribed "house of Judah" that were separated by God from the larger group of 10 tribed Israelites of the "house of Israel" (1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 18). The title of 'Jew' comes from the sole tribe of
Judah. The tribes of Benjamin and Levi joined with Judah at Jerusalem to form the southern kingdom of the "house of Judah" per God's Word and history.

Christians DO NOT have to go through any fleshy priesthood system, but to The Father through Jesus Christ only. Christ Jesus ONLY... is our High Priest, not some flesh man nor some fleshy religion of men like Judaism which originated from the Babylonian Talmud sage writings that formed their 'tradition'.


Wow. I had no idea you were that far behind in your learning of your Jewish heritage. That's what I mean when I mention your Jewish roots. I'm sorry. Had I known the depth we had to go, I would have taken a different approach. It's just that I really like your take on the 10 lost tribes in post #93, and I thought that meant you knew something about Y'hudah as well.

Let's start here: The problem with modern Christianity is that they've leaned too far in the opposite direction, presumably from trying to get away from any similarities to the Jewish religion. This all started with the anti-Semitism of the 200s and 300s A.D. The Gentile “Christians” were beginning to out-number the Jewish “Christians,” and they resented the Jewish influence and lordship (as they saw it) over the “Church.” There was such an aversion as to be blind hatred during that time period. They destroyed much of the Syriac versions of the Bible, and the Aramaic versions were almost totally destroyed! They are only now discovering some 1[sup]st[/sup]-century, Aramaic versions of the Bible through archaeology. Aramaic is closely related to Hebrew as Aram (ancient Syria) is "next door" to northern Isra'el (across the Golan Heights). There are many similarities between the two languages, as close as Portuguese is to Spanish. You can find out more about the research and the re-publishing of the Aramaic version at http://www.aent.org/.

But, there IS a Jewish heritage to Christianity! Yeshua` Himself was a Jew, and was born “King of the Jews”; His disciples were Jews; Paul was a Jew and a Pharisee (Acts 23:6)! Yeshua` said that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Isra'el (which was NOT just the 10 tribes, by the way, but all twelve or thirteen tribes, if you include both sons of Yosef, Matt. 15:24), He sent His disciples to the lost sheep of the house of Isra’el (Matt. 10:6), and He said "salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22). He purposely did not go to any town of the Goyim (Gentiles) and seldom went to the towns of Shomron (Samaria). Yeshua` was an observant Jew, keeping all the Law and the commandments (Matt. 5:17-20; John 15:10). Paul, too, was an observant Jew (Acts 21:23-26; Rom. 11:1; Phil. 3:4-6; 2 Cor. 11:22)

Josephus was NOT giving a definition of what a “Jew” is. The word “Jew” simply stems from the Middle English words, “jewe,” “gyu,” or “ju” (spelling was not very strict back then), which in turn came from the Old French words, “juieu” or “juiu,” which came from the Latin word “judaeus,” which came from the Greek word “ioudaios,” which came from the Aramaic word “yehudai,” which came from the Hebrew word “Yahudiy,” derived from the name “Y’hudah” or “Judah!” (In many “Romance languages,” languages that stem from Roman Latin, the “y” sound is mixed/confused with the “zh” sound. Today, we have adopted a more “dzh” sound and write it with the stylized iota “j.”)

So, strictly speaking, the word “Jew” simply means “a descendant of Y’hudah” or “a descendant of Judah.” Only since the days of the split during R’chav`am’s (Rehoboam’s) reign has the name been associated with the southern portion of David’s and Shlomo’s Kingdom.

Now, regarding the Babylonian Talmud, you should learn that there were two Torah’s – a written Torah and an oral Torah. Some things were passed on by word of mouth since the days of Mosheh (Moses). I won’t go into examples here, but not all of the details concerning the Tabernacle or the Temple were written down. Some things were learned from mentors who had learned information from their mentors, etc. It was not until some Isra’elis still living in Bavel (Babylon) after the captivity were running out of people who knew the information that they decided that the oral Torah should also be written down to preserve it for future generations, should the line of mentor succession be broken. This oral tradition or oral Torah became the Talmud, a written record of the oral Torah. The only portion to which we believers in the Messiah Yeshua` should object is the commentary secions by rabbis down through the years since then. As such, we may treat the Talmud as we would … say … the Apocrypha. We may not treat it as we would the rest of the Bible (i.e., as God’s Holy Word), but it is still a good source of information.

After all this happened, THEN Josephus came on the scene. Josephus was a Hellenized Jew. He further ENCOURAGED the Hellenization of Isra’el as a people, as they were incorporated into the Roman Empire. (Romans actually PREFERRED Koine Greek to Latin and only used Latin in Rome and for matters of state. Most of the civilized world at that time already spoke Koine Greek when Rome came to power, and they – like Alexander the Great – simply assimilated the cultures. That’s why, for the most part, the pantheons of the Greeks and the Romans are basically the same except for the names.) As a Hellenizer, Josephus is not the best authority on the origin or usage of the word “Jew,” anyway. Quite simply, he is biased!

Christianity has LOTS of Jewish roots! It is NOT a “falsehood” or a lie! Let’s look at a few examples:

The concept of baptism is from the Jewish usage of the mikvah, a pool that has constantly flowing water in which to bathe as a purification for sacrificing at the Temple! This was ORDERED in the Torah of Mosheh! Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) was given this ministry of purification in preparation for the arrival of God’s Messiah, and it has since passed on as an ordnance of the “church,” and some even count it as a “sacrament.”

The concept of “the Lord’s Supper” or “Communion” or the “Eucharist” comes from the final Passover Supper that Yeshua` shared with His disciples. This “Passover Supper” is known in Jewish circles as the “Pesach Seder,” a feast associated with the exodus from Egypt. During a Seder, there are four cups of wine served, two before the meal, one during the meal, and one after the meal:

1. The Cup of Sanctification
2. The Cup of Deliverance
3. The Cup of Redemption
4. The Cup of Praise

It was the third cup, the Cup of Redemption, that Yeshua` chose to be a reminder of His sacrifice on the cross. His blood sacrifice became the final atonement for our sins. He chose this to be His last drink before the ordeal He would suffer. He did not drink the fourth cup but said,

Matt. 26:29-30
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
KJV

Instead, He just sang a “hymn” with them, a “hallel,” or a SONG of “praise,” and then they retired to their camp site.

The concept of Pentecost, the memorial of the giving of the Ruach haQodesh, the Holy Spirit of God, happened upon the fiftieth day since the Passover. (“Pentecost” comes from the Greek word “penteekostee” meaning “fiftieth.”) This JEWISH holiday, kept by the “counting of the omer,” to count when the fiftieth day came, was a commemoration of when the Law was given by God on Mount Sinai! The two holidays coincide! It is the day of the year that God used for both writing the Law of tables of stone and writing the Law on “fleshly tables of the heart” (2 Cor. 3:3)!

That’s just three of the many ways that Christianity has borrowed from its Jewish origins, and the list would be incomplete without mentioning all the prophecies given to the Isra’elis in anticipation of the Messiah’s coming, both as haMashiach ben Yosef, the Messiah son of Joseph (Egypt’s Joseph, not the husband of Mary), the Suffering Messiah (the first Advent or Coming), and as haMashiach ben David, the Messiah son of David, the Victorious, Conquering Messiah, heir to David’s throne (the second Advent or Coming).

Shalom, veteran.

There's nothing wrong with the "traditions of the fathers." That's the oral Torah I was talking about. Yeshua` did not object to the traditions of the fathers; He objected to THEIR traditions, the traditions that THEY, the P'rushiym (Pharisees), started!

And, one should not by hypocritical regarding traditions, either. I dare say that most churches have their own sets of traditions. Some are exceedingly ritualistic and mechanical: two congregational songs, a prayer, another congregational song, a special number presented by a group or a solo, the sermon, and a benediction. Evangelical groups will often throw in an altar call between the sermon and the benediction for people to respond to the message. Many will even write down these traditions in fliers for the people who come so they may follow along and know what to expect and what is expected of them. Is that a bad thing? It depends! It's not a bad thing to be informative, but it may be a bad thing if people are just "going through the motions," and it has become a mindless habit for them to follow.

Those among Judah today who love the LORD ARE weeping for their nation and their people! And, please, learn to separate between those who "love the LORD" and those who have accepted Yeshua` as God's Messiah for them, who have become believers in Yeshua`. You should know that there is a PROCESS that one goes through in accepting Yeshua`, and it takes time to accomplish this process! While the actual moment of justification by God takes place instantaneously and is thus likened to a human birth, hence the "new birth," there is likewise a period of gestation that precedes the birth, a time of conviction from the Ruach haQodesh through which God instructs a person of his or her need for God's justification. Is it possible to "love the LORD" and be going through the time of conviction without yet experiencing the New Birth? OF COURSE IT'S POSSIBLE! That's why we should treat EVERYONE we meet as at least a POTENTIAL child of God, if he or she is not ACTUALLY a child of God, yet. The Jews are the same way!

Just because they may "hate" (FEAR) Christianity and Christianity's "Jesus Christ," most of that is because they DO NOT KNOW Yeshua` haMashiach, yet! However, they may respect and love the LORD God - YHVH the real God! It is WRONG to assume that Jews know what and whom they are rejecting when they reject Christianity and Christianity's "Jesus Christ!" Most do NOT have the background to know what and whom they are rejecting! They are merely following the leader, and they FEAR the history of Christianity and the atrocities that have been committed in the name of "Jesus Christ!" Most only know of the Roman Catholic Church as "Christianity" and have no other means by which to know otherwise!

Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about. Messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus, particularly in the State of Isra'el today, are considered "missionaries" (a derogatory term to the Jews there) and are "pariahs" among the religious Orthodox Jews! They are in constant danger from prejudices against them, but they stay there and serve there, considering themselves as emissaries for Yeshua` to the people of Isra'el and Jerusalem! Sure, they follow the traditions of their fathers, but only because God TOLD THEM TO FOLLOW THEM! They are still Jews, after all. Thus, they are to keep the commandments of God - not because the HAVE to do so to be right with God, but because they WANT to do so out of respect to God because they LOVE HIM!

Don't fall prey to the same fear out of ignorance that Jews do today from their own fears! You don't have to fear Messianic Jews just because they're DIFFERENT!
 

veteran

New Member
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Shalom, veteran.


Wow. I had no idea you were that far behind in your learning of your Jewish heritage. That's what I mean when I mention your Jewish roots. I'm sorry. Had I known the depth we had to go, I would have taken a different approach. It's just that I really like your take on the 10 lost tribes in post #93, and I thought that meant you knew something about Y'hudah as well.


I wouldn't be so quick to assume. I well understand Judah's history after the split of old Israel, even to today.


Let's start here: The problem with modern Christianity is that they've leaned too far in the opposite direction, presumably from trying to get away from any similarities to the Jewish religion. This all started with the anti-Semitism of the 200s and 300s A.D. The Gentile “Christians” were beginning to out-number the Jewish “Christians,” and they resented the Jewish influence and lordship (as they saw it) over the “Church.” There was such an aversion as to be blind hatred during that time period. They destroyed much of the Syriac versions of the Bible, and the Aramaic versions were almost totally destroyed! They are only now discovering some 1[sup]st[/sup]-century, Aramaic versions of the Bible through archaeology. Aramaic is closely related to Hebrew as
Aram (ancient Syria) is "next door" to northern Isra'el (across the Golan Heights). There are many similarities between the two languages, as close as Portuguese is to Spanish. You can find out more about the research and the re-publishing of the Aramaic version at http://www.aent.org/.

But, there IS a Jewish heritage to Christianity! Yeshua` Himself was a Jew, and was born “King of the Jews”; His disciples were Jews; Paul was a Jew and a Pharisee (Acts 23:6)! Yeshua` said that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Isra'el (which was NOT just the 10 tribes, by the way, but all twelve or thirteen tribes, if you include both sons of Yosef, Matt. 15:24), He sent His disciples to the lost sheep of the house of Isra’el (Matt. 10:6), and He said "salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22). He purposely did not go to any town of the Goyim (Gentiles) and seldom went to the towns of Shomron (Samaria). Yeshua` was an observant Jew, keeping all the Law and the commandments (Matt. 5:17-20; John 15:10). Paul, too, was an observant Jew (Acts 21:23-26; Rom. 11:1; Phil. 3:4-6; 2 Cor. 11:22)


Firstly, Christ Jesus was not, and is not, "king of the Jews". He never admitted to that title they mocked Him with (Matt.27:11-12). That was a sign which Pilate had put up on Christ's cross to mock the Jews who had Him crucified (John 19-19-22). The Jews complained about it. Christ Jesus is King of all Israel, since that's in relation to David's throne on earth which He is to inherit involving ALL the tribes of Israel, and there's more Israelites than just those who call themselves Judah or Jews.

According to Paul in Romans 9 and Ephesians 2, God's Israel now includes believing Gentiles. The lost sheep of the "house of Israel" is not specifically about Jews. The "house of Israel" is a specific title per Old Testament history about the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of israel that had already been scattered out of the holy land prior to Judah going into their Babylon captivity. When Christ said He was not sent but unto the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", He was making a prophetic statement of how The Gospel would eventually be rejected by the Jews at Judea, and instead be received by the lost remnants of the scattered ten tribes, along with Gentiles that would believe (Acts 28). It's what Jesus was talking about also in the parable of the husbandmen of the vineyard (Matt.21).

Christ gave His early disciples two different commissions in The Gospel at two different times. The first was before His crucifixion (Matt.10:5), which was when He told them to not go into any city of the Gentiles. But after His crucifixion, He told them to go and preach The Gospel to ALL nations (Matt.28:19). Amazing that you would leave that difference out while trying to say I'm the one far behind in learning. That second commission was especially concerning the history of Christ's Apostles taking The Gospel to the nations of Asia Minor and Europe after His crucifixion and resurrection. Then from there, The Gospel would go to all other nations.

In John 4:22, Christ made that remark to the Samaritan woman at the well, that salvation was of the Jews, because the only ones of Israel in the land at that time were those of the remnant of Judah that returned from the Babylon captivity which began to call theirselves Jews. The ten tribes, the majority of the people of Israel, had already been scattered to the nations and were not there any longer. He did NOT... mean that Salvation belongs only to the "house of Judah" or Jews, but to all of Israel. Since only a remnant of the house of Judah was left in the land, which was only about a small remnant of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, there wasn't anyone else there of Israel to refer to. The Samaritan woman well understood who the Jews were, because that's who was left in the southern lands around Jerusalem at the time.


Josephus was NOT giving a definition of what a “Jew” is. The word “Jew” simply stems from the Middle English words, “jewe,” “gyu,” or “ju” (spelling was not very strict back then), which in turn came from the Old French words, “juieu” or “juiu,” which came from the Latin word “judaeus,” which came from the Greek word “ioudaios,” which came from the Aramaic word “yehudai,” which came from the Hebrew word “Yahudiy,” derived from the name “Y’hudah” or “Judah!” (In many “Romance languages,” languages that stem from Roman Latin, the “y” sound is mixed/confused with the “zh” sound. Today, we have adopted a more “dzh” sound and write it with the stylized iota “j.”)


The Jewish historian Josephus was very specific that the title of 'Jew' came from the name 'Judah', and when it first began to be used, i.e., by the small remnant of the "house of Judah" that returned to Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity. It was specifically about those of Ezra 2, and it included foreigners. I suspect it was used a little earlier though, most likely right after God had split Israel into two separate kingdoms. The southern kingdom of the "house of Judah" is probably when it really first began to be used by Judah to distinguish themselves apart from the northern kingdom of Israel (ten tribes under king Jeroboam of Ephraim).

So what you're saying there doesn't prove anything against what he declared about that title of 'Jew'. An important thing about the history of that title per Josephus, is that it did NOT involve the ten tribes who had already been scattered prior to the "house of Judah" going into their later Babylon captivity. Judah at Jerusalem involved only the southern "kingdom of Judah" after the split per God's Word (2 Chron.11:17). The northern "kingdom of Israel" made up of the ten tribes were separated from Judah in Solomon's days, and then removed from the holy land (1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 18). And it has remained so unto this day, which is why the two sticks prophecy of Ezekiel 37 is still future.


So, strictly speaking, the word “Jew” simply means “a descendant of Y’hudah” or “a descendant of
Judah.” Only since the days of the split during R’chav`am’s (Rehoboam’s) reign has the name been associated with the southern portion of David’s and Shlomo’s Kingdom.


True. Which is what I've been saying all along. Josephus was speaking only of the small remnant of Judah that returned to Jerusalem from Babylon as Jews. Yet the majority of the "house of Judah" that went captive to Babylon chose to stay in Babylon, and were then further scattered through the countries, and also per history began using that title of Jew wherever they went. Since those kept their heritage as Israelites while scattered, when the ten tribes did not, what does that reveal to you? That's what God showed would happen (Hosea). Ten tribe Israel would lose their heritage as Israel, while most of Judah would not.


Now, regarding the Babylonian Talmud, you should learn that there were two Torah’s – a written Torah and an oral Torah. Some things were passed on by word of mouth since the days of Mosheh (Moses). I won’t go into examples here, but not all of the details concerning the Tabernacle or the
Temple were written down. Some things were learned from mentors who had learned information from their mentors, etc. It was not until some Isra’elis still living in Bavel (Babylon) after the captivity were running out of people who knew the information that they decided that the oral Torah should also be written down to preserve it for future generations, should the line of mentor succession be broken. This oral tradition or oral Torah became the Talmud, a written record of the oral Torah. The only portion to which we believers in the Messiah Yeshua` should object is the commentary secions by rabbis down through the years since then. As such, we may treat the Talmud as we would … say … the Apocrypha. We may not treat it as we would the rest of the Bible (i.e., as God’s Holy Word), but it is still a good source of information.


That may be what Jewish tradition says, but God through Moses already wrote down the specifics of tabernacle worship per the Old Covenant, even to how the ark of the covenant was to be fashioned. Oral tradition means just that, 'oral traditiion'. The real Torah is God's Holy Writ through Moses. By 'oral tradition', that's how the Jews began getting away from God's Holy Writ, until they formed their own... set of extra-Biblical traditions which Christ rebuked them for. That was especially manifested in Babylon with the Babylonian Talmud, a book of philosphical sage writings only roughly based on Torah tradition. It's the same kind of working as a certain Church system (I won't name) that reveres their own 'traditions' more than the actual written Word of God. By that 'oral tradition' working is also how the Jewish Kabbalistic system came about, a heavily mystical system outside of God's Holy Writ that proposes some very pagan type ideas, showing the Canaanite corruptions mixed among the oral traditiions of the Jews.


After all this happened, THEN Josephus came on the scene. Josephus was a Hellenized Jew. He further ENCOURAGED the Hellenization of Isra’el as a people, as they were incorporated into the
Roman Empire. (Romans actually PREFERRED Koine Greek to Latin and only used Latin in Rome and for matters of state. Most of the civilized world at that time already spoke Koine Greek when Rome came to power, and they – like Alexander the Great – simply assimilated the cultures. That’s why, for the most part, the pantheons of the Greeks and the Romans are basically the same except for the names.) As a Hellenizer, Josephus is not the best authority on the origin or usage of the word “Jew,” anyway. Quite simply, he is biased!


I'm well aware of how many of orthodox Judah hated Josephus, and still hate him today, which certainly is bias on their part. No doubt it's because of what he revealed in his histories, going outside their supposed authority, which makes him all the more credible, and is probably why his histories are often referred to by Christian scholars throughout Christian history, and still today.


Christianity has LOTS of Jewish roots! It is NOT a “falsehood” or a lie! Let’s look at a few examples:

Christianity comes from the word "Christian" which is a title first used at Antioch for the followers of Jesus Christ. The majority of Jews rejected Christ Jesus, and He rejected the Jews' religion exercised by the Pharisees and Sadduccee sects, which proves the distinctness of Christianity apart from Judaism. Just because the word Judaism comes from the name of the tribe of Judah, it does not... mean Judaism represents the same thing as God's Truth in His Holy Writ. Anyone reading Christ's warnings about the Jews' religion concerning their "leaven" doctrines of men should have easily recognized that (Matt.16:6-12).


The concept of baptism is from the Jewish usage of the mikvah, a pool that has constantly flowing water in which to bathe as a purification for sacrificing at the
Temple! This was ORDERED in the Torah of Mosheh! Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) was given this ministry of purification in preparation for the arrival of God’s Messiah, and it has since passed on as an ordnance of the “church,” and some even count it as a “sacrament.”


First mistake, that term 'Jew' was not used until after the split of old Israel into two separate kingdoms per history. In other words, Moses whom God gave His law through, was not a Jew, even though some have tried to move that title all the way back to his days, and even back to Abraham. Moses was a Hebrew. We don't even find that title of Jew used in the KJV Bible until 2 Kings 16.

The various washings required under the Old Covenant Levitical priesthood did include rites of purfication, but not for the remission of sins through Christ Jesus. The baptism for the remission of sins per John the Baptist was to represent The New Covenant under Jesus Christ. Different time, different Covenant. Those symbolic washings of the old Levitical priesthood didn't belong specifically to Judah and the Pharisees anyway. It was unto ALL Israel in the days of Moses. And Judah was not even responsible for administering them per that Old Covenant.

So referring to that as some 'Jewish' thing is supposition. Furthermore, notice the malefactor who believed crucified with Christ didn't have to go through water baptism to be saved. Jesus has The Power to save without water baptism also, but He did set the example for us to do it as He did, which is the reason why Christians still do it today, not as some kind of Jewish thing, but to represent remission of sins through Christ Jesus by The New Covenant of His Blood. And the fact that it is open to all peoples of all nations reveals all the more how that Baptism is not a Jewish thing today. So claiming the various washings per the Old Covenant is one thing, Christian Baptism is another. If not, then maybe you can tell me of an Orthodox Jew under Judaism today that gets baptized of water for remission of sins through Christ Jesus?


The concept of “the Lord’s Supper” or “Communion” or the “Eucharist” comes from the final Passover Supper that Yeshua` shared with His disciples. This “Passover Supper” is known in Jewish circles as the “Pesach Seder,” a feast associated with the exodus from
Egypt. During a Seder, there are four cups of wine served, two before the meal, one during the meal, and one after the meal:

1. The Cup of Sanctification
2. The Cup of Deliverance
3. The Cup of Redemption
4. The Cup of Praise

It was the third cup, the Cup of Redemption, that Yeshua` chose to be a reminder of His sacrifice on the cross. His blood sacrifice became the final atonement for our sins. He chose this to be His last drink before the ordeal He would suffer. He did not drink the fourth cup but said,

Matt. 26:29-30
29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
KJV

Instead, He just sang a “hymn” with them, a “hallel,” or a SONG of “praise,” and then they retired to their camp site.

The concept of Pentecost, the memorial of the giving of the Ruach haQodesh, the Holy Spirit of God, happened upon the fiftieth day since the Passover. (“Pentecost” comes from the Greek word “penteekostee” meaning “fiftieth.”) This JEWISH holiday, kept by the “counting of the omer,” to count when the fiftieth day came, was a commemoration of when the Law was given by God on Mount Sinai! The two holidays coincide! It is the day of the year that God used for both writing the Law of tables of stone and writing the Law on “fleshly tables of the heart” (2 Cor. 3:3)!

That’s just three of the many ways that Christianity has borrowed from its Jewish origins, and the list would be incomplete without mentioning all the prophecies given to the Isra’elis in anticipation of the Messiah’s coming, both as haMashiach ben Yosef, the Messiah son of Joseph (Egypt’s Joseph, not the husband of Mary), the Suffering Messiah (the first Advent or Coming), and as haMashiach ben David, the Messiah son of David, the Victorious, Conquering Messiah, heir to David’s throne (the second Advent or Coming).

There again you make mistakes by trying to group those Old Covenant matters under some 'Jewishness' thing, when those things per the Old Covenant were not given specifically to Judah, but to all the 12 tribes of Israel, the sons of Jacob. Those traditions do not belong specifically to the "house of Judah" or Jews. They belong to all of God's people, all Israel. And now, under Jesus Christ with His having made a change per The New Covenant, it's ludicrous to still want to be wrapped up in those old traditions of the Old Covenant. If you'll notice per 1 Cor.5:7, Jesus Christ BECAME... our Passover sacrificed for us. We are no longer held to following the Old Covenant passover tradition how old Israel did.

All the Torah was given because of transgressions of the people, and to point to Christ's coming to bring The New Covenant. If we try to go back to the old ways per the Old Covenant, the Gentiles would be left out of Christ's Salvation, and even those born of Israel would also! Israel cannot have Salvation without the believing Gentiles on Jesus Christ, and visa versa.


There's nothing wrong with the "traditions of the fathers." That's the oral Torah I was talking about. Yeshua` did not object to the traditions of the fathers; He objected to THEIR traditions, the traditions that THEY, the P'rushiym (Pharisees), started!

Mark 7:7-9
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And He said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
(KJV)

That kind of thing is what 'oral tradition' causes. Put 20 people in a circle and whisper something to one and tell them to pass it on, and most likely it'll come back corrupted somehow.


And, one should not by hypocritical regarding traditions, either. I dare say that most churches have their own sets of traditions. Some are exceedingly ritualistic and mechanical: two congregational songs, a prayer, another congregational song, a special number presented by a group or a solo, the sermon, and a benediction. Evangelical groups will often throw in an altar call between the sermon and the benediction for people to respond to the message. Many will even write down these traditions in fliers for the people who come so they may follow along and know what to expect and what is expected of them. Is that a bad thing? It depends! It's not a bad thing to be informative, but it may be a bad thing if people are just "going through the motions," and it has become a mindless habit for them to follow.

I whole-heartedly agree, traditions of men among the Christian Churches can be just as bad. For example, the Easter tradition is one such corruption, since the word Easter is not in God's Word (Acts 12:4 word "Easter" is actually the Greek word for passover in the Greek NT manuscripts). Instead, the word Easter comes from an old pagan name for their easter rites of sexual fertility. It's really a shame that word per tradition has come to be used to represent the time of Christ's death and resurrection. However, it may have a teaching purpose for the ten tribes of Israel, to remind them how they had rebelled against God and His Ways which is why they were scattered among the Gentiles, and went fully into Baalism before Christ Jesus came to reveal His Gospel to them. In the Christian west prior to Christ's first coming, they were following all sorts of pagan worship derived from ancient Baalism that originated in Babylon.


Those among Judah today who love the LORD ARE weeping for their nation and their people! And, please, learn to separate between those who "love the LORD" and those who have accepted Yeshua` as God's Messiah for them, who have become believers in Yeshua`. You should know that there is a PROCESS that one goes through in accepting Yeshua`, and it takes time to accomplish this process! While the actual moment of justification by God takes place instantaneously and is thus likened to a human birth, hence the "new birth," there is likewise a period of gestation that precedes the birth, a time of conviction from the Ruach haQodesh through which God instructs a person of his or her need for God's justification. Is it possible to "love the LORD" and be going through the time of conviction without yet experiencing the New Birth? OF COURSE IT'S POSSIBLE! That's why we should treat EVERYONE we meet as at least a POTENTIAL child of God, if he or she is not ACTUALLY a child of God, yet. The Jews are the same way!

But what I was speaking about per Scripture, was of recognizing the crept in unawares that are mentioned all throughout God's Word. Without knowing about that and staying on watch, the seed sowed (Word of God) will never... take root in the minds and hearts of God's people. Got to plough the dirt, clear away the stones, cut down the thorn bushes, and then plant seed in goodly soil. Otherwise one is wasting their time because the seed will always be eaten up by the enemy that creeps in. This is one of Judah's main problems today, as it is also within many of today's Churches. But among those in Christ Jesus that are ever on watch, it is not. Some will always require a rebuking, because Jesus showed we cannot always recognize the 'tares' among His people.


Just because they may "hate" (FEAR) Christianity and Christianity's "Jesus Christ," most of that is because they DO NOT KNOW Yeshua` haMashiach, yet! However, they may respect and love the LORD God - YHVH the real God! It is WRONG to assume that Jews know what and whom they are rejecting when they reject Christianity and Christianity's "Jesus Christ!" Most do NOT have the background to know what and whom they are rejecting! They are merely following the leader, and they FEAR the history of Christianity and the atrocities that have been committed in the name of "Jesus Christ!" Most only know of the Roman Catholic Church as "Christianity" and have no other means by which to know otherwise!

Not all orthodox Jews 'hate' Christianity, even at the behest of their religious elders that do. I know some. And I realize how the majority of them are still blinded today, and will remain so untli Christ's return (per Rom.11). Yet there are others among them that not only hate Christianity, but they literally hate God and all His people. Those are false Jews that have crept in, servants of the devil. Those are the ones mixed among the Jews that have been responsible for atrocities done in early Europe against Christians that caused the Jews to be banned from Europe on several occassions in past history. Those are the ones that could come up with oral traditions that the life of the goyim is worthless and murder of the goy (Gentiles) can be justified if one is a Jew. One of true Judah would never come up with that kind of mockery against God.


Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about. Messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus, particularly in the State of Isra'el today, are considered "missionaries" (a derogatory term to the Jews there) and are "pariahs" among the religious Orthodox Jews! They are in constant danger from prejudices against them, but they stay there and serve there, considering themselves as emissaries for Yeshua` to the people of Isra'el and Jerusalem! Sure, they follow the traditions of their fathers, but only because God TOLD THEM TO FOLLOW THEM! They are still Jews, after all. Thus, they are to keep the commandments of God - not because the HAVE to do so to be right with God, but because they WANT to do so out of respect to God because they LOVE HIM!

Then they should not be so ready to adopt many of the traditions of those orthodox unbelieving Jews, and claim to be Christians at the same time. I don't see my Christian brethren of Judah as 'Jews', since that word represents more towards the religion of Judaism than it does with a follower of Jesus Christ. They are Israelites, is how I see those of Judah that have believed on Jesus Christ. Remember how Paul rebuked Peter in Galatians for separating away from believing Gentiles when his Israelite brethren from Jerusalem came for a visit. That's a Biblical NT example that we are not to be separate, but one body in Christ Jesus.


Don't fall prey to the same fear out of ignorance that Jews do today from their own fears! You don't have to fear Messianic Jews just because they're DIFFERENT!

I haven't. I realize what Judah's responsibilities in The Gospel and among the Christian nations are today. I recognize God has left much of His history with them, the true traditions from the Old Testament Books apart from the Jews' religion. It's becaue of Bible prophecy in The Old Testament Books that I know that. It's not those among Judah today that concerns me. The one's among Judah today that concerns me, are the 'tares', false Jews. Those should be a concern of yours too, and that was my whole point of my previous post.