The Rapture is True and Pre Trib

veteran said:

You take me totally wrong when I speak of that history, wrongly thinking I'm against my Jewish brethren. The "mystery of iniquity" is not something that's supposed to be a secret for us who have believed on Christ Jesus unto Salvation. That mystery of iniquity involves much worse falseness than Judaism's refusal of Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

Christ taught a distinction between true Jews, and false Jews...

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(KJV)

That was specifically what Christ's parable of the 'tares' of the field was about. We are to understand it (Matt.13).

In simple terms, there's a false element among Judah that has deceived the majority of those among them that truly do love our Heavenly Father. Paul noted them, as did the other Apostles at Jerusalem, per Acts 15, 2 Cor.11:26 and Gal.2:4. Those specifically are the wolves in sheep's clothing. Not all Jews, but those who claim to be but are not, and do lie, like Jesus said. That's why Paul was led to persecute Christ's Church before he was converted, delivering up Christians in chains to be brought back to Jerusalem to be jailed, wtih some of them executed. It's why Paul had to appeal to Caesar in Rome instead of allowing the Jews to try and execute him in Jerusalem.

That's who is deceiving true Judah today, a false element mixed among the Jews.


A little Bible history lesson?

Judg 2:2-4
2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed My voice: why have ye done this?
3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
4 And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept.
(KJV)

Those among Judah today who love The LORD should be weeping, because of those false ones among them that are a "snare" to them. No, but instead, Judah is still... doing this same thing they did there in the time of Judges, making leagues with the sons of the enemy that dwells right among them.


Judg 2:16-18
16 Nevertheless the LORD raised up judges, which delivered them out of the hand of those that spoiled them.
17 And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; but they did not so.
18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.
(KJV)

Just who... were those which The LORD was talking about which vexed Israel then, and oppressed them, that spoil His people? He's going to reveal it here in a little bit.


Judg 2:19-23
19 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way.
20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto My voice;
21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.
(KJV)


What nations were those? The nations of Canaan, the Canaanites, pagan idolaters.

Per Joshua 9, they crept in among Israel. Per 1 Kings 9:19-22 they were still there. Per 1 Chron.2:55 they became the SCRIBES among Judah. Per Ezra 2, 8 and 9, they returned with the remnant of the "house of Judah" from Babylon back to Jerusalem as Nethinim priests; Nethinim means 'given to temple service', the old Canaanite temple bondservants under Solomon. Per Nehemiah 3:26 they took up dwelling right in the city of David at the tower of Ophel.

By the time of Christ's first coming, the stage was set, as those who had crept in among Judah that are false Jews were prepared to contest Him; had Him crucified even, all in order to keep the people in bondage under their false 'traditions' added to Israelite history. They still dwell hidden among Judah today, and will continue as the "tares" until Christ returns to separate them from true Judah. And then... there shall no more be the Canaanite in the House of The LORD of hosts (Zech.14:21).

This is why Jews for Jesus, Messianic Jews, etc., need to be very careful of what and who they follow from Jewish traditions.

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so you're one of those people who believe jews to be pagans?? shame on you veteran..

teamventure said:

so you're one of those people who believe jews to be pagans?? shame on you veteran..

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Shame on your for thinking that, and trying to use that ploy, because all it does is keep protecting the false Jews that Jesus warned His elect about in Rev.3:9.

The Bible history of the crept in unawares is clearly written for all to see (who can read)...

Jude 1:4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)


But of course anyone claiming to be of Judah would never want to admit that Bible history of the crept in unawares, since they might think it would apply to them too. Same goes for an Israelite of the ten lost tribes. Yet it is... written in God's Word, however controversial a subject it may appear to be. But no worry, for our Lord Jesus revealed how to recognize His enemies that creep in among His people; it's according to their 'fruits'. A sign of true Judah will always involve one who seeks to produce good fruit, even if they still are blinded away from Christ Jesus as Messiah. Thus one of true Judah, even one that is an orthodox Jew, would never want to kill Christians, nor persecute Christianity, nor covet David's throne.

For those not familiar with this Bible history, it begins with Cain being cast east of Eden away from God's Presence. Then with the Canaanite nations which God commanded Israel to completely wipe out, but they failed to do, and God said He would leave those peoples of Canaan among His people of Israel to be a snare to them, to see if His people would follow Him or not (Judges 2 & 3).

In Joshua 9, a group of Canaanites masqueraded as foreigners acted as if they came from a long journey, hiding the fact that they were Canaanites. They feared Israel's destruction of the Canaanite nations per God's commandment. They asked Joshua to let them join with the children of Israel, and Joshua agreed not knowing they were Canaanites. Then it was discovered who they really were, Canaanites disguised as foreigners from a far land. It was too late, Joshua had already made a pact with them. So he made them become hewers of wood and bondservants to Israel.

In 1 Kings 9:19-22, there they still are, as bondservants unto Israel.

Per 1 Chron.2:55, there some of them are, as Kenites from Gen.15:19 that lived among the Canaanites, having already become "scribes" in Israel. The duty of the scribe was protect God's Holy Writ and transcribe copies of it, and to teach the people.

Then per Ezra 2, with the remnant of the house of Judah that returned to Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity, there they still are, having returned with the Judah remnant from Babylon, and they had become 'priests' and Nethinim temple servants unto the house of Judah, even though their heritage was not found among Israel. Ezra even looked at the people returning from Babylon and noticed none... of the sons of Levi returning. So he sent the head Nethinim, Iddo, to go back to Babylon to fetch Levite priests (Ezra 8).

Then in Nehemiah 3, another post-captivity Book about that returning remnant of Judah (Jews), the Nethinim foreigners had taken up residence at the tower of Ophel, which was right inside the city of David in Jerusalem...

Neh 3:26
26 Moreover the Nethinims dwelt in Ophel, unto the place over against the water gate toward the east, and the tower that lieth out.
(KJV)


Ophel in the city of David was the original site of the city of Jebus, what the Canaanites called Jerusalem when they had control of it before God gave it to the children of Israel through David.


Thus when our Lord Jesus Christ appeared at His first coming, He warned His servants about this matter...

Matt 23:1-7
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to His disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
(KJV)


When Christ returns this next time, those are going to be cast out from among His people.

One of the clearest ways not to be deceived concerning when Jesus will return, whether before or after the Great Tribulation is; will The Lord's return be visible or invisible.

Acts 1:9-11


9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

… while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.


If anyone tries to tell you the Lord's return in invisible, have them show you scripture!


Revelation 1:7

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
This is a reference from the old testament –
Zechariah 12:10
10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.



Matthew 24:29-31

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



The scriptures are clear about this, yet people still wonder and debate.


IF JESUS RETURNED BEFORE THE ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED WHO IN THE WORLD WOULD FOLLOW HIM AFTER SEEING THE TRUE CHRIST!!!

2 THESSALONIANS 2 1-4

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin <a name="b"> is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

good scripture jlb.

JLB said:

IF JESUS RETURNED BEFORE THE ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED WHO IN THE WORLD WOULD FOLLOW HIM AFTER SEEING THE TRUE CHRIST!!!

2 THESSALONIANS 2 1-4

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin <a name="b"> is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

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That's just it, Paul in that 2 Thess.2 Scripture is revealing that the Antichrist must come first. And then our Lord Jesus will return to destroy that "man of sin"...


II Th 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
(KJV)


So that's definitely... NOT about some secret Pre-trib rapture idea.

Justaname,

you wrote-

The rapture is a real event, in fact the Thessalonians believed they had missed it in relation to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. Paul assures them they did not miss anything.


So that I might understand what you are saying here, I would like to ask you a question.

Do you believe The Day of The Lord to be when Jesus Christ returns to earth after the tribulation?


Thanks, JLB

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2
(1) Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
(2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Of course, different manuscripts show this as either "the day of the Lord" or "the day of Christ", Who is, of course, the Lord.

That notwithstanding, how do we know that this day of the Lord is not the looked for rapture? Because the announcement of its arrival was troubling to them. They would not be troubled by someone saying the rapture has arrived. They likely just look up, and expect to go . . .

But if they believed that the rapture was to precede the Day of the Lord, and they were being told the Day of the Lord has arrived, then they'd be troubled if they believed the report, thinking either that they were wrong, or that they missed it.

So then, which is the event that must follow these signs, the apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin? The "our gathering", or "the Day of the Lord"? Paul says, "Don't be troubled by someone telling you the Day of the Lord has arrived - first come the apostasia and the man of sin be revealed."

So you can know that the Day of the Lord hasn't arrived, since neither the apostasia nor the revealing of the man of sin have happened. Therefore, you needn't be troubled thinking that you are in the Day of the Lord, having missed the rapture . . .

But, if you think of "that day" that can't come before these two signs as being the rapture itself, then you are left with explaining why they would be so troubled by someone saying the rapture has arrived.

Love in Christ,
Mark

mark s said:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2
(1) Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
(2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Of course, different manuscripts show this as either "the day of the Lord" or "the day of Christ", Who is, of course, the Lord.

That notwithstanding, how do we know that this day of the Lord is not the looked for rapture? Because the announcement of its arrival was troubling to them. They would not be troubled by someone saying the rapture has arrived. They likely just look up, and expect to go . . .

But if they believed that the rapture was to precede the Day of the Lord, and they were being told the Day of the Lord has arrived, then they'd be troubled if they believed the report, thinking either that they were wrong, or that they missed it.

So then, which is the event that must follow these signs, the apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin? The "our gathering", or "the Day of the Lord"? Paul says, "Don't be troubled by someone telling you the Day of the Lord has arrived - first come the apostasia and the man of sin be revealed."

So you can know that the Day of the Lord hasn't arrived, since neither the apostasia nor the revealing of the man of sin have happened. Therefore, you needn't be troubled thinking that you are in the Day of the Lord, having missed the rapture . . .

But, if you think of "that day" that can't come before these two signs as being the rapture itself, then you are left with explaining why they would be so troubled by someone saying the rapture has arrived.

Love in Christ,
Mark

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Thanks Mark,

I am beginning to see how you come up with alot of the different things you believe.

Could you please answer with a yes or no.

Do you believe The Day of The Lord to be when Jesus Christ returns to earth after the tribulation?


Thanks for your answer, although I was hoping Justaname would join in as well, JLB

I believe "the day of the Lord" is when Christ returns and gathers His saints to Him. It's because Apostle Paul said that, in 1 Thess.5.

Yet those who'd rather listen to men's doctrines, and read Left-Behind type books, they don't really care that Paul said that, do they?

I find it most interesting, that once you've shown those on the Pre-trib secret rapture theory what the Scriptures actually state, they then get busy trying to push a pry bar into it in order to keep picking at the Scripture until it says what they 'want'... it to say.

Those have not 'the love of the Truth'.

JLB said:

If anyone tries to tell you the Lord's return in invisible, have them show you scripture!


Revelation 1:7

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Click to expand...

JLB said:

This is a reference from the old testament –
Zechariah 12:10
10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Matthew 24:29-31

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


The scriptures are clear about this, yet people still wonder and debate.


IF JESUS RETURNED BEFORE THE ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED WHO IN THE WORLD WOULD FOLLOW HIM AFTER SEEING THE TRUE CHRIST!!!

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The pre-trib rapture doctrinists once had a rebuttal for that event of all eyes seeing Christ at His coming. It was the claim of John Darby (1830's Britain) that the rapture would be a 'secret' coming, only those raptured would 'see' Jesus coming.

But the pre-trib rapture school later dropped preaching that 'secret' idea, and now say we will simply disappear in front of non-believers, which really still... is suggesting a secret coming against the Scriptures.

One would think all that foul play with modifying the original pre-trib rapture doctrine would wake a lot of people up who believe them, but most likely the majority who believe it are not aware of this exact point you make that all eyes will see Christ coming in the clouds when He comes to gather His Church.

My personal favorite is that because the pretrib rapture is both a loud event (trumpet and shout) and a quiet event at the same time, those left behind won't be able to hear it.

Whenever a part of the doctrine doesn't fit with scripture, more doctrine has to be added to reconcile the two enough to still be believable. Those are the very characteristics of a lie.

mark s said:

So you can know that the Day of the Lord hasn't arrived, since neither the apostasia nor the revealing of the man of sin have happened. Therefore, you needn't be troubled thinking that you are in the Day of the Lord, having missed the rapture . . .

But, if you think of "that day" that can't come before these two signs as being the rapture itself, then you are left with explaining why they would be so troubled by someone saying the rapture has arrived.

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You can only ask those questions if you think in the paradigm of modern life.

In their day, they didn't have twitter. They didn't have the Drudge Report on the internet. They didn't have CNN. They didn't have cell phones, radios, or even newspapers.

Paul's explanation to the Thessalonians has to be couched in their understanding of what they thought would happen.

As Paul taught that the Rapture came on the Day of the Lord because he links the two: we can surmise that if they thought that the Day of the Lord HAD come: which Paul says in the Greek perfect tense so it could be read as: 'is now present, and since more than one day has passed and they're still on the earth in their mortal bodies - they would have surmised that they missed the Rapture!

veteran said:

Like I said, Christianity did NOT... originate from Judaism.

Even Judaism today is... Phariseeism, their philosophical traditions that began with the 70 years Babylon captivity and return to Jerusalem. That's why their main treatise is the Babylonian Talmud writings, and not Old Testament Scripture. And the fact that it's called the 'Babylonian' Talmud should make it clear when that tradition began, and what they were influenced by.

You prove yourself to be a hypocrite, because you falsely accuse me of anti-Semitism and hate for pointing out historical facts about the religion of Judaism, facts that even Jewish scholars admit.

Here's what Apostle Paul said "the Jews' religion" made him do...

Gal 1:13-14
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
(KJV)


Christ Jesus had something to say to those Pharisees and scribes about their 'tradition' too...

Matt 15:2-9
2 "Why do Thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread."
3 But He answered and said unto them, "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, 'Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.'
5 But ye say, 'Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free.' Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 'This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me.
9 But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.'
(KJV)

Mark 7:7-9
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And He said unto them, "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."
(KJV)

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The most obvious answer is the most ignored. The word Christian is derived from one who follows Christ.
The last time anyone looked it up, Jesus was a Jew born into a Jewish family in a Jewish nation (albeit one under Roman jurisdiction - does that make Christ an Italian?), subservient to Jewish tradition.

Jesus took many of the Jewish traditions, turned them upside down and inside out and made them new again. The primary example is the eucharist. Originally a Jewish tradition, breaking bread was adapted into a religious liturgy by the church (following Christ's command of course). I could go on with this, but why waste bandwidth on an argument that will be rejected before the last sentence is read.

Perhaps the single most enduring proof of all is Phariseeism. It too is a Jewish tradition which has been adapted and heartily adopted by the church community throughout the years. It's alive and well today in the contemporary church, under a new name of course; legalism. Taught in sermons and Sunday school lessons as a thing to be avoided, the advice is broken before the first dollar of tithe money is collected and before the first sermonette is preached. If there is any lasting proof of Christianity as a derivative of Judaism apart from the person and work of Jesus Himself, it is Phariseeism.

Bad tradition, like bad habits, is very hard to break.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[email protected] said:

The most obvious answer is the most ignored. The word Christian is derived from one who follows Christ.
The last time anyone looked it up, Jesus was a Jew born into a Jewish family in a Jewish nation (albeit one under Roman jurisdiction - does that make Christ an Italian?), subservient to Jewish tradition.

Jesus took many of the Jewish traditions, turned them upside down and inside out and made them new again. The primary example is the eucharist. Originally a Jewish tradition, breaking bread was adapted into a religious liturgy by the church (following Christ's command of course). I could go on with this, but why waste bandwidth on an argument that will be rejected before the last sentence is read.

Perhaps the single most enduring proof of all is Phariseeism. It too is a Jewish tradition which has been adapted and heartily adopted by the church community throughout the years. It's alive and well today in the contemporary church, under a new name of course; legalism. Taught in sermons and Sunday school lessons as a thing to be avoided, the advice is broken before the first dollar of tithe money is collected and before the first sermonette is preached. If there is any lasting proof of Christianity as a derivative of Judaism apart from the person and work of Jesus Himself, it is Phariseeism.

Bad tradition, like bad habits, is very hard to break.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

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The title Pilate put up on Christ's cross of "JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS" was only to rile up the blind scribes and Pharisees who pushed for Christ's death. They even asked Pilate to remove it!!!


John 19:19-22
19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, "Write not, 'The King of the Jews'; but that He said, 'I am King of the Jews.'"
22 Pilate answered, "What I have written I have written."
(KJV)


Fact of the matter is, Jesus NEVER... proclaimed Himself as "King of the Jews".

But many who then believed on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ did believe on Him as "King of Israel" (John 12:13; John 1:49).

So the Jews did not accept Him, and He did not accept the Jews. Pretty clear the Jews cannot claim Jesus as their King, for the majority of them STILL... REJECT HIM as their King.


And Judaism IS Phariseeism, even as they themselves have admitted.

[email protected] wrote -

The last time anyone looked it up, Jesus was a Jew born into a Jewish family in a Jewish nation...


The last time I looked, The Lord Jesus made a covenant with Abraham the Gentile of which we are grafted in Christ!


If you get right down to it, Judaism came from the teaching of Christ.


The Jews turned the teaching of Christ into the "religion" of Judaism.

One command became 10, which then evolved into 613, so now were back to 1.

"Walk before Me and be blameless" which is the same as walk in The Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh!

I could go on with this, but I'm sure it will be rejected before the last word is read.


Thanks, JLB

To many preachers teach a rapture pre-trib and for all Christians. Prophecy does not support this idea. This idea fills the pews.
Being taken in a rapture AFTER mid point of Tribulations still saves one of the wrath of Tribulations for that begins AFTER mid point. For it is AFTER mid point of Tribulations that the Mark of the Beast is made mandatory. Believers will be be-headed for not taking the Mark of the Beast... Who are these people? Of course, there are those that are STRONG or THOSE being TESTED further, and did not go in any rapture! So the churches have addressed the strong and claimed they will also go in the rapture --------bad teachings. We may all "like" to think when all the bad things in Tribulations begins and ends that we will have had a seat on the sidelines watching the game from the bleachers and safety, but that would be an error, expect to be a participant. prepare for the worst and hope for the best. This teaching may not fill many pews... but it is sound. OH and in this manner..if no rapture transpires you are still prepared. I firmly believe in the rapture, but alas, and Gladly, I will NOT be going.

terry said:

To many preachers teach a rapture pre-trib and for all Christians. Prophecy does not support this idea. This idea fills the pews.
Being taken in a rapture AFTER mid point of Tribulations still saves one of the wrath of Tribulations for that begins AFTER mid point. For it is AFTER mid point of Tribulations that the Mark of the Beast is made mandatory. Believers will be be-headed for not taking the Mark of the Beast... Who are these people? Of course, there are those that are STRONG or THOSE being TESTED further, and did not go in any rapture! So the churches have addressed the strong and claimed they will also go in the rapture --------bad teachings. We may all "like" to think when all the bad things in Tribulations begins and ends that we will have had a seat on the sidelines watching the game from the bleachers and safety, but that would be an error, expect to be a participant. prepare for the worst and hope for the best. This teaching may not fill many pews... but it is sound. OH and in this manner..if no rapture transpires you are still prepared. I firmly believe in the rapture, but alas, and Gladly, I will NOT be going.

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That's still the teaching of a false pre-trib rapture theory, for that theory is about the idea of being taken ANYTIME BEFORE THE TRIBULATION TIME. The time when the beast image and mark are instituted IS... tribulation time. Christ said in Matthew 24:29-31 His coming and our gathering to Him is AFTER... that tribulation.

what you have a hard time understanding is that there are 2 times that the Lord comes back. there is the rapture and the day of the Lord. 2 thes 2:1-3 says Now we beseech you, brethren, aby the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by bour gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or cbe troubled, neither dby spirit, nor eby word, nor eby letter as from us, as that fthe day of Christ is at hand. 3 gLet no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, hexcept there come ia falling away first, and jthat man of sin be revealed, kthe son of perdition;

Notice that right from the beginning Paul separated the coming of the Lord from our being gathered to Him. That’s because they’re two different events

7angels said:

what you have a hard time understanding is that there are 2 times that the Lord comes back. there is the rapture and the day of the Lord. 2 thes 2:1-3 says Now we beseech you, brethren, aby the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by bour gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or cbe troubled, neither dby spirit, nor eby word, nor eby letter as from us, as that fthe day of Christ is at hand. 3 gLet no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, hexcept there come ia falling away first, and jthat man of sin be revealed, kthe son of perdition;

Notice that right from the beginning Paul separated the coming of the Lord from our being gathered to Him. That’s because they’re two different events

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1 Thessalonians 4 & 5 are one thought. The word "but" links what Paul said with what he is about to say.


1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4


13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven [see Acts 1:11] with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.


The coming of The Lord with the resurrection and then the rapture is in fact The Day of The Lord.

All the components of what you say are separate events are found to be clearly one in the same event, according to the Word of God!


The is only ONE SECOND COMING!


Thanks, JLB

We can’t tell their relative timing from this, but we can tell they’re not the same thing. One is when He comes back down to Earth, while from 1 Thes. 4:16-17 we know the other has us going up to meet Him in the air and continuing to Heaven. The 2nd coming will be witnessed by everyone (Matt. 24:30), but the rapture is an instantaneous disappearance (1 Cor. 15:51-52) that happens without warning. they are separate events. the second coming and the day of the Lord are the same thing.