The Lake of Fire

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Do people or souls enter eternal punishment?


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Lively Stone

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Pagan concept? My goodness, man. Letting one's mind run amok is carnality, and the Lord warns us against it. We are to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. Taking in the word of God, taking it seriously as well as being careful not to be enticed by teachings of men are all necessary in order to be found in truth.

2 Corinthians 10:5
We destroy every proud obstacle that keeps people from knowing God. We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ.

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
 

Rach1370

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35 “Love your enemies! Do good to them. Lend to them without expecting to be repaid. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked.36 You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate.
Luke 6:35-36 (NLT)


If it were true that God will endlessly torment His enemies in hell then in light of what Jesus said in Luke 6, if we want to be like our Father in heaven we should torment our enemies as well. Yet Jesus says love your enemies and then you will be acting like your Father in Heaven.

I'm not commenting on what I think "hell" will be, but clearly, it exists...and just because it does doesn't mean we don't treat others with love. Heck...I would suggest that the reality of it means the lost and blind need it all the more!
Seriously Jiggy, why do you think the Bible goes past Jesus dying on the cross. If His sacrifice was enough for all people, for all time, no matter if they repented or not, why didn't God just brush His hands together and leave it at that? Instead He calls for us to repent, to believe and accept Jesus as the only way to heaven (His words, not mine), and to spread the word of salvation to as many as we can. Why that order if all were saved anyway? Why the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in those who are saved? The Bible is clear that being regenerated and having the Spirit is a clear sign that one is saved. How many people out there do not have the Spirit? How about Hitler...Osama? You can't say they had the Holy Spirit...they may have had a spirit, but not The Spirit. Do you honestly believe that those people, living a life of evil and direct rebellion and hatred towards God, will be given the same afterlife considerations as those who are thankfully covered by the blood of the lamb? The Bible is explicit...only those who have their sinfulness replaced with Christ's righteousness will be welcomed into the Kingdom of God. It cannot be both. Either we need to repent and believe to be saved, or stuff it all, no matter what we do or who we believe in, we'll be saved anyway. In which case major parts of scripture are wrong.
So, it comes down to this...either you imagine that the evil people who hate Jesus will be welcomed into the Kingdom where we are supposed to spend all our time singing His praises and loving Him, or that there needs to be some separation between those covered by Jesus, and those not. The bible chooses to call that separation heaven and hell. What goes on in either place is not for us to decide or rule, just to try and usher as many people into the place where we love Jesus and worship Him.
 

jiggyfly

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I'm not commenting on what I think "hell" will be, but clearly, it exists...and just because it does doesn't mean we don't treat others with love. Heck...I would suggest that the reality of it means the lost and blind need it all the more!
Seriously Jiggy, why do you think the Bible goes past Jesus dying on the cross. If His sacrifice was enough for all people, for all time, no matter if they repented or not, why didn't God just brush His hands together and leave it at that? Instead He calls for us to repent, to believe and accept Jesus as the only way to heaven (His words, not mine), and to spread the word of salvation to as many as we can. Why that order if all were saved anyway? Why the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in those who are saved? The Bible is clear that being regenerated and having the Spirit is a clear sign that one is saved. How many people out there do not have the Spirit? How about Hitler...Osama? You can't say they had the Holy Spirit...they may have had a spirit, but not The Spirit. Do you honestly believe that those people, living a life of evil and direct rebellion and hatred towards God, will be given the same afterlife considerations as those who are thankfully covered by the blood of the lamb? The Bible is explicit...only those who have their sinfulness replaced with Christ's righteousness will be welcomed into the Kingdom of God. It cannot be both. Either we need to repent and believe to be saved, or stuff it all, no matter what we do or who we believe in, we'll be saved anyway. In which case major parts of scripture are wrong.
So, it comes down to this...either you imagine that the evil people who hate Jesus will be welcomed into the Kingdom where we are supposed to spend all our time singing His praises and loving Him, or that there needs to be some separation between those covered by Jesus, and those not. The bible chooses to call that separation heaven and hell. What goes on in either place is not for us to decide or rule, just to try and usher as many people into the place where we love Jesus and worship Him.

Thanks for sharing Rach, but honestly you can only see things that fit within the religious paradigm created by how you were taught. I have never suggested that no one goes unpunished. In your paradigm there are only two options and it must be one or the other, much like many view election or free will, they are opposed so it must be one or the other, obviously both cannot be right. But both can still be very wrong. So it is with your your to options for salvation.

You are misunderstanding my view of salvation, and the redemption of mankind and I would ask you to study more about UR but I am doubt you would do so without bias.

I will not debate it with you, but rather leave it here. If you would like to actually discuss my last post employing logic then I am game. :)

Our Position in Christ

1. Our position in Christ refers to all that is involved in the believers' spiritual union with Christ; our new position "in Christ" or "in Him" which occurs at salvation for ALL believers in the Church Age.​

2. Our New Position constitutes a new beginning for the believer, neutralizing the effects of our previous position in Adam. 1 Cor.15:22​
a. Our position in Adam is the result of the imputation of Adam's original sin [AOS] to the indwelling sin nature resulting in spiritual death; one is born physically alive but spiritually dead.​
b. Position in Christ replaces spiritual death with eternal life and guarantees us a future resurrection.​
Eternal Life replaces death - Rom. 6:23;
Resurrection is guaranteed - 1 Cor.15:51-52; 1 Ths. 4:13-16

3. Our New Position is totally the work of God. 1 Cor. 1:30

4. Our New Position begins with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, [BHS], which is one of the 5 things that God the Holy Spirit [G/HS] does for every believer in the church age at SALVATION.​
a. Regeneration - [new birth] Jn 3:1-16; Titus 3:5 (done by G/HS for every believer from Adam to the end of millennium)​
b. BHS - 1 Cor 12:13 (entrance into a royal relationship)
c. Sealing - 2 Cor 1:22; Eph 4:30; 1:13,14
d. Indwelling - Rom 8:9; 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19,20; Gal 3:2; 4:6;
e. Giving of a Spiritual gift - 1 Cor 12:11 (gifts are designed to provide for the local church's function so that we can fulfill our responsibility as believers)​

5. Our New position qualifies us as believers to live with God forever; If we are to live with God forever we must:​
a. have forgiveness for all sins - accomplished by faith in His work on the cross bearing our sins - being judged on behalf of us. 1 Pet 2:24; 3:18​
b. be as righteous as God - accomplished through the imputation of +R, God's righteousness which is credited to us at salvation and therefore God can say JUSTIFIED! 2 Cor 5:21​
c. have the same life as God - eternal life - also imparted at salvation to the Believer. 1 Jn 5:11,12; as a result of regeneration.​

6. The carnal, negative, or rebellious believer as well as the believer who is in fellowship share equally in their position in Christ. 1 Cor. 1:2,30 cf. 3:1-3​
- The sin nature's rulership is not an issue as to one's position;​
- It has everything to do with our day to day fellowship with Christ.​

7. Our new position protects us as believers from eternal judgment. Rom 8:1​

8. Our new position produces a new creature in Christ. 2 Cor 5:17​
- what grace accomplishes at SALVATION is based on who and what Christ is [it is the change of position that provides the foundation, the basis for all changes in life.]
- All bona fide changes in time, in the life of the believer are the result of a response to the Word of God, BD.
- As the Norms and Standards [N&S] of the conscience are being renewed and applied, one is said to be growing in grace.
- This is a transformation not a reformation.

9. Our new position guarantees the eternal security of the believer. Rom 8:38-39

10. Positional truth exists in two categories:​
a. Retroactive positional truth: [RAPT] Rom. 6:3-8; Col. 2:12,​
1) The believer is identified with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection, which guarantees that we share in His victory on the cross.​
2) This results in the rejection of human good as a basis for salvation. Titus 3:5​
3) It becomes the basis for victory in the Christian life, the application of positional truth to experience because the SIN NATURE has been dealt with by the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. Rom 6:6​
Point is that the sin nature no longer has to rule you; you have died to the sin nature, [6:2] and are freed from it [6:7].​

b. Current positional truth: [CPT] Col. 3:1-4; Eph 2:4-6
1) This speaks of the believer being identified with Christ at the right hand of Father in the heavenlies.​

11. On the basis of this new position, the believer shares certain things which Christ possesses:​
(CPT - is the present reality for each believer)
a. The life of Christ, eternal life; 1 Jn 5:11-12; Jn 20:31
b. The righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ; 2 Cor 5:21
c. The election of Christ; Eph 1:4
d. The destiny of Christ; Eph 1:5
e. The Sonship of Christ; Rom. 8:16-17; Gal. 3:26
f. The heirship of Christ; Rom. 8:16-17; 1 Pet. 1:4-5
g. The priesthood of Christ; Heb. 10:10-14; 1 Pet. 2:5-9
h. The eternal kingdom of Christ [eternity]; 2 Pet 1:11

12. Summary observations related to our position in Christ:
a. It is not an experience nor is it associated with emotion or ecstatics.​
b. It is not progressive - it can not be improved upon in time or in eternity.​
c. It is not related to human merit or human good (an implication of retroactive positional truth, being identified with Christ).​
d. Positional truth is eternal therefore will last forever and cannot be changed by God, Angels, or man's actions.​
e. Positional truth is obtained in a second, in a moment of time, accomplished by the BHS at the point of faith in Christ.​

My thanks to this source:​



Scripture itself refutes damnation as remedial:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7 And God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.

Matthew 25:46
46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

Matthew 18:8
So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet.
Maybe I missed it but where is there any scripture here that supports your statement here?

God doesn't torment anyone, nor will He. People don't seem to understand that it is our POSITION to God that dictates what our eternal destiny is. If we do not have the blood covering over our sin, then we cannot be in the presence of holy God. torment is the result of one's rejection of Christ. God doesn't DO it, nor does He desire it, because He loves people! People do it.

Been there, done that.

So, where is the scripture that says that damnation is temporary that the Lake of Fire is merely a refining process? Can you answer that question?


.

Maybe in your own mind but certainly not in any of your posts.
 

Lively Stone

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I'm not commenting on what I think "hell" will be, but clearly, it exists...and just because it does doesn't mean we don't treat others with love. Heck...I would suggest that the reality of it means the lost and blind need it all the more!
Seriously Jiggy, why do you think the Bible goes past Jesus dying on the cross. If His sacrifice was enough for all people, for all time, no matter if they repented or not, why didn't God just brush His hands together and leave it at that? Instead He calls for us to repent, to believe and accept Jesus as the only way to heaven (His words, not mine), and to spread the word of salvation to as many as we can. Why that order if all were saved anyway? Why the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in those who are saved? The Bible is clear that being regenerated and having the Spirit is a clear sign that one is saved. How many people out there do not have the Spirit? How about Hitler...Osama? You can't say they had the Holy Spirit...they may have had a spirit, but not The Spirit. Do you honestly believe that those people, living a life of evil and direct rebellion and hatred towards God, will be given the same afterlife considerations as those who are thankfully covered by the blood of the lamb? The Bible is explicit...only those who have their sinfulness replaced with Christ's righteousness will be welcomed into the Kingdom of God. It cannot be both. Either we need to repent and believe to be saved, or stuff it all, no matter what we do or who we believe in, we'll be saved anyway. In which case major parts of scripture are wrong.
So, it comes down to this...either you imagine that the evil people who hate Jesus will be welcomed into the Kingdom where we are supposed to spend all our time singing His praises and loving Him, or that there needs to be some separation between those covered by Jesus, and those not. The bible chooses to call that separation heaven and hell. What goes on in either place is not for us to decide or rule, just to try and usher as many people into the place where we love Jesus and worship Him.

Excellent. Universalism makes a mockery of even this depiction of a place of separation for unbelievers in SCRIPTURE:

Luke 16:19-31
[sup]19[/sup] Jesus said, “There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed in purple and fine linen and who lived each day in luxury. [sup]20[/sup] At his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus who was covered with sores. [sup]21[/sup] As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich man’s table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores.
[sup]22[/sup] “Finally, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, [sup]23[/sup] and his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side.
[sup]24[/sup] “The rich man shouted, ‘Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.’
[sup]25[/sup] “But Abraham said to him, ‘Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. [sup]26[/sup] And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.’
[sup]27[/sup] “Then the rich man said, ‘Please, Father Abraham, at least send him to my father’s home. [sup]28[/sup] For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them so they don’t end up in this place of torment.’
[sup]29[/sup] “But Abraham said, ‘Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote.’
[sup]30[/sup] “The rich man replied, ‘No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God.’
[sup]31[/sup] “But Abraham said, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead.’”




Jiggyfly, please answer my question as you promised:

Where is the scripture that says that damnation is temporary that the Lake of Fire is merely a refining process?


.
 

Rach1370

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Thanks for sharing Rach, but honestly you can only see things that fit within the religious paradigm created by how you were taught. I have never suggested that no one goes unpunished. In your paradigm there are only two options and it must be one or the other, much like many view election or free will, they are opposed so it must be one or the other, obviously both cannot be right. But both can still be very wrong. So it is with your your to options for salvation.

You are misunderstanding my view of salvation, and the redemption of mankind and I would ask you to study more about UR but I am doubt you would do so without bias.

I will not debate it with you, but rather leave it here. If you would like to actually discuss my last post employing logic then I am game. :)

Hey Jiggy! Granted, it is hard to break away from thinking along the lines you were raised under. And yes, I haven't made much of a study of UR, so I can't make much of a statement about or against it. But I can comment on what I truly feel the Bible says...and that's after digging into it for various reasons to confirm or deny what I was indeed 'raised with'.
As far as 'hell' goes I simply cannot go past the very dire warnings the Bible repeats again and again for those who are not seen as 'righteous' in God's eyes. I haven't a clue as to the nature of hell....I know many people hold to the 'burning forever', and I acknowledge that could be true...the Bible certainly mentions it, along with a terrible darkness and a constant wailing and gnashing of teeth...doesn't really sound great. But I also recognise that our God is good and perfectly just. When we, as people, thinking of 'burning alive forever' we imagine a torture that lasts forever. But 'torture'...they way humans use it and think it up...is just plain evil...something that God is not. So I'm not dismissing the idea that hell is actually a constant state away from the amazing love of God, guilt twisting incessantly over their sin in His face, and knowing they have no way to stop or change it. Guilt and shame can be a fire burning inside you. And of course there is the consideration that a sinful person cannot stand to be in the presence of a holy God. I believe in a way all veils will be ripped away after death...so even if they're not living in the light of His love (as we will be) they'll still have to contend with His presence, which is everywhere.
So, the long and short of it is this...I really have no idea what hell is, the Bible presents it in such a way that we could suppose for a long time. But the thing I am sure about, is that the Bible teaches it is a place we want to avoid. That it is so undesirable that Jesus Himself came and died so that we could escape it. We are told to preach and pray for the Spirit to move among many, praying that they too may escape God's 'wrath'. Put succinctly, hell is not a place that anyone will want to be.
As far as the salvation issue goes...sorry, that's one subject I won't 'consider differently' or be open to 'reason'. My guiding star on that one is scripture and scripture alone...and it is very clear. Salvation is through Christ alone, through faith alone, through grace alone. It's not weakness or closed mindedness to believe this...it's faith. It's trust in God and His word being true. And it simply backs up what any truly honest person knows. That without Jesus and His gift of grace...I wouldn't stand a chance. I live with me...so I know how useless all my own efforts to 'conform' are. I may manage to bottle up external signs of sin....but inside, my mind and heart run wild. Through grace and the Holy Spirit I manage to take small steps forward, but it always feels that any time I succeed in killing some fault, another one pops up. Trying to earn righteousness ourselves is pointless...we aren't capable of it...and anyone who thinks we can, is guilty of the sin of pride and religiousness!! So Salvation....that's not one I'm gonna change on!!

So, I dunno about the 'reason' conversation....depends on how smart I'm feeling on a particular day! But I promise you this...before I get into a UR conversation with you...I'll read up on it so I don't sound like an ignorant, self righteous moron!! Do you recommend any good sights that sum up your position that I can go to??? That would help narrow it down!
 
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logabe

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It appears you misapprehend what 'reconciled' means, and also that it is by faith we are saved by God's grace. No faith in Jesus, no life. That is the Gospel's message. Universalists present a false Gospel that those who are unbelievers, the unregenerate, and also the reprobate and apostate will eventually be saved, despite their choice to follow Satan. Some believe that these folk will even suffer condemnation, but then they add to the words of the Book by stating that condemnation, or the Lake of Fire is a temporary punishment, that they will serve their time and get out.
Where is that in scripture??

Matthew 18:31-35,

31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were
deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had
happened.
32 Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,
I forgave you all that debt because you entreated me.
33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, even
as I had mercy on you?
34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the
torturers [basanistes, "jailers,"] until he should repay all that was
owed him.
35 So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does
not forgive his brother from your heart.

Notice: UNTIL means someday he will get out of prison. In other words, he will not
stay in prison forever but he will be released after he has paid his debt.

It will be the same for the unbeliever. God is no respecter of persons.

Logabe
 

jiggyfly

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Excellent. Universalism makes a mockery of even this depiction of a place of separation for unbelievers in SCRIPTURE:

Luke 16:19-31
[sup]19[/sup] Jesus said, “There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed in purple and fine linen and who lived each day in luxury. [sup]20[/sup] At his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus who was covered with sores. [sup]21[/sup] As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich man’s table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores.
[sup]22[/sup] “Finally, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, [sup]23[/sup] and his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side.
[sup]24[/sup] “The rich man shouted, ‘Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.’
[sup]25[/sup] “But Abraham said to him, ‘Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. [sup]26[/sup] And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.’
[sup]27[/sup] “Then the rich man said, ‘Please, Father Abraham, at least send him to my father’s home. [sup]28[/sup] For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them so they don’t end up in this place of torment.’
[sup]29[/sup] “But Abraham said, ‘Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote.’
[sup]30[/sup] “The rich man replied, ‘No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God.’
[sup]31[/sup] “But Abraham said, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead.’”




Jiggyfly, please answer my question as you promised:

Where is the scripture that says that damnation is temporary that the Lake of Fire is merely a refining process?


.
Like I said earlier you post some scriptures that support you statement here, because you were asked first then I will post mine

. God doesn't torment anyone, nor will He. People don't seem to understand that it is our POSITION to God that dictates what our eternal destiny is. If we do not have the blood covering over our sin, then we cannot be in the presence of holy God. torment is the result of one's rejection of Christ. God doesn't DO it, nor does He desire it, because He loves people! People do it.
 

Lively Stone

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Jiggyfly~ I am not playing games. I did respond to your request, asking about how we have position with God. If you don't want to respond I am not about to hound you as you do me. Have a nice day.



Matthew 18:31-35,

31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were
deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had
happened.
32 Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,
I forgave you all that debt because you entreated me.
33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, even
as I had mercy on you?
34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the
torturers [basanistes, "jailers,"] until he should repay all that was
owed him.
35 So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does
not forgive his brother from your heart.

Notice: UNTIL means someday he will get out of prison. In other words, he will not
stay in prison forever but he will be released after he has paid his debt.

It will be the same for the unbeliever. God is no respecter of persons.

Logabe

That is a completely false interpretation borne out of wishful thinking and not understanding the character of God. It takes forever for a person to pay for his sin when they spurn Christ's life's blood payment! God's mercy doesn't apply to those who are not His.
 

jiggyfly

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Jiggyfly~ I am not playing games. I did respond to your request, asking about how we have position with God. If you don't want to respond I am not about to hound you as you do me. Have a nice day.

I am not surprised that you think being challenged to support your opinion with logic and scripture is a game.
You have yet to support your post with scripture, the parable you posted about the blind beggar and the rich man, does not support your post.

. God doesn't torment anyone, nor will He. People don't seem to understand that it is our POSITION to God that dictates what our eternal destiny is. If we do not have the blood covering over our sin, then we cannot be in the presence of holy God. torment is the result of one's rejection of Christ. God doesn't DO it, nor does He desire it, because He loves people! People do it.

Who does the tormenting? Do people torment them selves? Who sends people to the place of torment? Do people willfully go to the place of torment? Who determines our position with God? Do we draw, reconcile, save ourselves? I do not see how the parable you posted supports your opinion and answers here.

Can you possible post more scriptures that actually deal with the subject of your post in question???

That is a completely false interpretation borne out of wishful thinking and not understanding the character of God. It takes forever for a person to pay for his sin when they spurn Christ's life's blood payment! God's mercy doesn't apply to those who are not His.

Ok then give a correct interpretation and post scripture, if you can. :wacko:
 

Lively Stone

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I am not surprised that you think being challenged to support your opinion with logic and scripture is a game.
You have yet to support your post with scripture, the parable you posted about the blind beggar and the rich man, does not support your post.

You can't see the scripture? Who's playing games, here? You were asking about our position with God. The parable I offered is also a good reply demonstrating the fact that there is a separation of sinners from the righteous after death. Jesus isn't about to speak a parable that has no basis in reality and truth. You just don't like that you need to make some adjustment in your thinking.

Your move.



Who does the tormenting? Do people torment them selves? Who sends people to the place of torment? Do people willfully go to the place of torment? Who determines our position with God? Do we draw, reconcile, save ourselves? I do not see how the parable you posted supports your opinion and answers here.

Torment is intrinsic to the place. God casts people to the Lake of Fire because they cannot stay in His presence. They must go where their father, Satan goes. Our position with God is determined by our faith in Jesus Christ---or not. the parable most definitely reveals the truth about what happens to the unrighteous and what happens to the righteous. There is a great separation forever.

Can you possible post more scriptures that actually deal with the subject of your post in question???

Maybe. I am waiting on yours.


Ok then give a correct interpretation and post scripture, if you can. :wacko:

Been there, done that.
 

Lively Stone

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That's the whole point. There are two distinct seeds that cannot live in the same house.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'seeds', but yes, only those who belong to the Father are citizens of heaven, their names written in the Book of Life, and those who reject Christ belong to Satan, their names not found in the Book of Life, and they go where he goes.


Revelation 20:11-15
The Final Judgment

[sup]11[/sup] And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. [sup]12[/sup] I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. [sup]13[/sup] The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. [sup]14[/sup] Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. [sup]15[/sup] And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.
 

logabe

Active Member
Aug 28, 2008
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Jiggyfly~ I am not playing games. I did respond to your request, asking about how we have position with God. If you don't want to respond I am not about to hound you as you do me. Have a nice day.





That is a completely false interpretation borne out of wishful thinking and not understanding the character of God. It takes forever for a person to pay for his sin when they spurn Christ's life's blood payment!
God's mercy doesn't apply to those who are not His.

First of all, we must understand Christ bought everyone and is responsible for our
salvation. He has a plan to extend His Mercy from generation to generation. Psalm
118:1-4 says,

1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: because
his mercy endureth for ever.
2 Let Israel now say , that his mercy endureth for ever.
3 Let the house of Aaron now say , that his mercy
endureth for ever.
4 Let them now that fear the LORD say , that his mercy
endureth for ever.

The justice of God is tempered by mercy. The level of mercy that one receives
is measured by the mercy that the sinner has shown to others. James 2:13 says,

13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown
no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

This works both ways. If a person is totally merciless, then God will be merciless
to him, and he will pay the last farthing (Matt. 18:34). But on the other hand, if
the sinner has been merciful to others and has had compassion for others who
have sinned against him, then that is the level of mercy that God will grant to
him.

This principle is established by the law of equal weights and measures in Deut.
25:13-16. This is also what Jesus meant in Matt. 7:2 when He said,

2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by
your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

What does this have to do with people not having to stay in the Lake of Fire for
eternity. Well, it is very important when you can understand how Mercy works,
because you are saved by Mercy. If you want to know what God's character is like,
just meditate upon His Mercy scriptures. God is merciful! Romans 8:32 says,

32 For God hath concluded [sugkleio, “locked up, or shut up”]
them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.

For an example, Saul (Paul) was in the house of Judas for 3 days until God sent
Ananias to pray for him and heal his blindness. Ananias means whom God has
graciously given. The root of the word means mercy. In other words, Saul—and
Israel in general—is in a helpless state of blindness with scales over their eyes
until God has mercy upon us and sends His word of healing . It is an act of a
sovereign God. We are helpless to see the truth until He reveals it.

The lesson we must learn from this is that God has blinded the eyes of His people,
and the pattern of Israel under Moses is that they would remain blinded during the
pentecostal age of “the Church in the wilderness.”

By knowing this... the Church today is as helpless as Israel was under Moses. We
need to pray that God will send forth His Ananias people and have mercy upon
Israel and the rest of the world.

The fact that God chose Israel and yet blinded them to the truth of the Word
means that they are “enemies” of God.

Nonetheless, God had purpose in this. Israel as a whole cannot see the truth and
cannot break free of its antinomian spirit of lawlessness until God has mercy
upon them. Everywhere in the Scriptures, God takes the credit for blinding all of
Israel except for the remnant of grace.

Paul says the gifts (graces) and callings of God are unregretted. It is a good plan,
but only a remnant of grace even begins to understand what God is really doing.
Romans 11:30-31 says,

30 For AS YE in times past have not believed God, yet
have now obtained mercy through their [Israel's]
unbelief;
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that
through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

So the world was blessed through Israel's blindness and “obtained mercy
through their unbelief.” Only God could come up with a plan of that
magnitude and His Greatness is unmeasurable. It completely blows my mind.

That tells me that God has complete control over a person's salvation. He
knows when a person will come into the Kingdom of God because He shows
the Mercy this is required to cause a person to repent. He also blinds people
that want except His requirements at this time and will deal with them at a
later date just as He will do to the Israelites in the wilderness that God never
gave eyes to see and ears to hear in (Deuteronomy 29:4).

4 "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart
to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.

In essense, God blinded them because they didn't have enough faith to be
obedient to His Word. That disqualified them from entering the Promise Land
@ that time. It will also disqualify the present day Christians and unbelievers
alike if they refuse to repent or become obedient to the Word (Law) of God.

God want throw them into the Lake of Fire for eternity but He will throw the
unbelievers in the Lake of Fire for correction until they have paid their last
pence but ultimately God will open their eyes which He has blinded by His
Mercy (Titus 3:5).

5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we
have done in righteousness, but according to His
mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing
by the Holy Spirit,

By not accepting Him now, you will pro-long your salvation to another day in
the future just as the Israelites are waiting that refused to accept the Plan
of God in their day. Is it better to accept Him now?

No doubt about it... What a God... What a Plan!

Logabe
 

Lively Stone

New Member
Jan 15, 2012
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Ontario, Canada
Salvation is like a river---you have to dive in to partake of it. Those who stay on the shore miss it. you can look at it this way also: We are shipwrecked at sea. Jesus is the lifesaving Rock which we climb out of the sea of sin onto to save our lives. We beckon people to come out of the water to this Rock, but many won't come. They die in the sea.

In other words, Jesus died and poured out His life;s blood for me and you and the whole world, but only those who plunge in and are covered with that blood are saved. Jesus doesn't force it on anyone---it is a free will choice.

There is NOTHING in God's inspired word where he tells us that the fires of hell are remedial or temporary for anyone--especially for Christians. You are mistaking the passage about refiner's fire, and the passage about Jesus' Bema Seat Judgment where only our works are put through a test of fire.
 

jiggyfly

New Member
Nov 27, 2009
2,750
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North Carolina
Salvation is like a river---you have to dive in to partake of it. Those who stay on the shore miss it. you can look at it this way also: We are shipwrecked at sea. Jesus is the lifesaving Rock which we climb out of the sea of sin onto to save our lives. We beckon people to come out of the water to this Rock, but many won't come. They die in the sea.

In other words, Jesus died and poured out His life;s blood for me and you and the whole world, but only those who plunge in and are covered with that blood are saved. Jesus doesn't force it on anyone---it is a free will choice.

There is NOTHING in God's inspired word where he tells us that the fires of hell are remedial or temporary for anyone--especially for Christians. You are mistaking the passage about refiner's fire, and the passage about Jesus' Bema Seat Judgment where only our works are put through a test of fire.

We save ourselves eh, what about those who cannot swim, guess it's just to bad.

First of all, we must understand Christ bought everyone and is responsible for our
salvation. He has a plan to extend His Mercy from generation to generation. Psalm
118:1-4 says,

1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: because
his mercy endureth for ever.
2 Let Israel now say , that his mercy endureth for ever.
3 Let the house of Aaron now say , that his mercy
endureth for ever.
4 Let them now that fear the LORD say , that his mercy
endureth for ever.

The justice of God is tempered by mercy. The level of mercy that one receives
is measured by the mercy that the sinner has shown to others. James 2:13 says,

13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown
no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

This works both ways. If a person is totally merciless, then God will be merciless
to him, and he will pay the last farthing (Matt. 18:34). But on the other hand, if
the sinner has been merciful to others and has had compassion for others who
have sinned against him, then that is the level of mercy that God will grant to
him.

This principle is established by the law of equal weights and measures in Deut.
25:13-16. This is also what Jesus meant in Matt. 7:2 when He said,

2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by
your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

What does this have to do with people not having to stay in the Lake of Fire for
eternity. Well, it is very important when you can understand how Mercy works,
because you are saved by Mercy. If you want to know what God's character is like,
just meditate upon His Mercy scriptures. God is merciful! Romans 8:32 says,

32 For God hath concluded [sugkleio, “locked up, or shut up”]
them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.

For an example, Saul (Paul) was in the house of Judas for 3 days until God sent
Ananias to pray for him and heal his blindness. Ananias means whom God has
graciously given. The root of the word means mercy. In other words, Saul—and
Israel in general—is in a helpless state of blindness with scales over their eyes
until God has mercy upon us and sends His word of healing . It is an act of a
sovereign God. We are helpless to see the truth until He reveals it.

The lesson we must learn from this is that God has blinded the eyes of His people,
and the pattern of Israel under Moses is that they would remain blinded during the
pentecostal age of “the Church in the wilderness.”

By knowing this... the Church today is as helpless as Israel was under Moses. We
need to pray that God will send forth His Ananias people and have mercy upon
Israel and the rest of the world.

The fact that God chose Israel and yet blinded them to the truth of the Word
means that they are “enemies” of God.

Nonetheless, God had purpose in this. Israel as a whole cannot see the truth and
cannot break free of its antinomian spirit of lawlessness until God has mercy
upon them. Everywhere in the Scriptures, God takes the credit for blinding all of
Israel except for the remnant of grace.

Paul says the gifts (graces) and callings of God are unregretted. It is a good plan,
but only a remnant of grace even begins to understand what God is really doing.
Romans 11:30-31 says,

30 For AS YE in times past have not believed God, yet
have now obtained mercy through their [Israel's]
unbelief;
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that
through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

So the world was blessed through Israel's blindness and “obtained mercy
through their unbelief.” Only God could come up with a plan of that
magnitude and His Greatness is unmeasurable. It completely blows my mind.

That tells me that God has complete control over a person's salvation. He
knows when a person will come into the Kingdom of God because He shows
the Mercy this is required to cause a person to repent. He also blinds people
that want except His requirements at this time and will deal with them at a
later date just as He will do to the Israelites in the wilderness that God never
gave eyes to see and ears to hear in (Deuteronomy 29:4).

4 "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart
to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.

In essense, God blinded them because they didn't have enough faith to be
obedient to His Word. That disqualified them from entering the Promise Land
@ that time. It will also disqualify the present day Christians and unbelievers
alike if they refuse to repent or become obedient to the Word (Law) of God.

God want throw them into the Lake of Fire for eternity but He will throw the
unbelievers in the Lake of Fire for correction until they have paid their last
pence but ultimately God will open their eyes which He has blinded by His
Mercy (Titus 3:5).

5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we
have done in righteousness, but according to His
mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing
by the Holy Spirit,

By not accepting Him now, you will pro-long your salvation to another day in
the future just as the Israelites are waiting that refused to accept the Plan
of God in their day. Is it better to accept Him now?

No doubt about it... What a God... What a Plan!

Logabe

Very good post Logabe, thanks for posting scriptures to support your beliefs B)
 

WhiteKnuckle

New Member
Mar 29, 2009
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Although I don't believe in an eternal burning and suffering, I am not convinced that everyone will eventually be saved. I see evidence that every knee will bow and every tongue confess the Lord Jesus Christ. Although, I do see how people can believe that everyone will eventually come to be saved, I just don't believe that's what the Bible says.
 
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logabe

Active Member
Aug 28, 2008
880
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Only Jesus can save.

Acts 15:11
We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.

Romans 10:9
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


I believe that we are all saved the same way also. That's why I believe in
Isa. 45:23 so strongly.

23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone
forth from My mouth in righteousness And will
not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow,
every tongue will swear allegiance.

God will definitely do this by Himself and He want need any help from our
free will. Every knee and every tongue will bow and confess and be saved
the same way as we are in Romans 10:9.

Have you ever seen a rebellious person bow down and confess that Jesus
Christ is Lord? NO... a thousand times NO. But when God sheds His Mercy
and Love upon that rebellious no count sinner, his carnal mind will melt away
and his/her heart will be softened by the Love that Jesus shed on the Cross
and that sin ridden soul will rejoice and shout with gladness.

Not because I say it, but because God swore to it!


Logabe