The Lake of Fire

justaname · Mar 9, 2012

All will confess Jesus Christ Lord. This is true, for all will be judged by Him. If He judges all, then He lords over all.
A note to Isaiah 45:23 the word "allegiance" is assumed; it is not in the original text. In fact it is not in the KJV at all.

Please refer to my previous post on eternal destruction given by Paul. 2 Thessalonians 1:9
Also Jesus speaks of eternal punishment. Matthew 25:46

Now there are other texts to bring to light also.
Isaiah 66:22-24
Daniel 12:1-2
Matthew 18:6-9
Mark 9:48
Jude 7
Revelation 14:9-11

So as for the thought of eternal punishment, we have it spoken of by the prophets, taught by Jesus, and continued by the apostles. I feel it is a sound biblical doctrine.

Another person who rejected the idea of eternal torment was Charles Taze Russell, who subsequently started the Jehovah's Witnesses movement. Just food for thought.

WhiteKnuckle · Mar 9, 2012

justaname said:
Another person who rejected the idea of eternal torment was Charles Taze Russell, who subsequently started the Jehovah's Witnesses movement. Just food for thought.

This is exactly why I held on to the idea of burning forever. It does stand to reason that an idea from a cult will be wrong. However, I remember a preacher (although a misguided, yet well meaning) told me, "There's only 1% poison in rat poison. The rest is good stuff"

I believe that many have stumbled upon a truth from the Bible, or even many truths, yet hold on to the bit of poison that ruins the rest of the good stuff.

At this moment, my understanding says, no eternal burning. Even though it sounds like a weak mind, I'm always open to the possibility that I am wrong, or rather, I think there may be a possibility that an eternal torment will happen. So, therefore, I continue to study and seek the truth. Even if I think I found the true meaning, I may find out I've been wrong.

It never hurts to re-examine your beliefs. That's how new truths are found.

jiggyfly · Mar 9, 2012

Wonder if Jim Jones believed in endless torment?

WhiteKnuckle · Mar 9, 2012

jiggyfly said:
Wonder if Jim Jones believed in endless torment?

Touche'

I also wonder, if any of the Greek mythology tought of such a place...........

justaname · Mar 9, 2012

This is just another thing I find interesting. Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire... Being that Jesus overcame death and also the one who had power over death, will those who are not found in the Lamb's book of life be able to overcome the second death, without Jesus doing it again? And being that Jesus did overcome this world, in order to rescue man from death once is He willing to do it again?

Now I do understand this is purely philosophical and truly can not be answered except by the HolySpirit, but I think it interesting. Being that I can not answer this is truly why I would rather preach the second death eternal as to me it is more scripturally sound.

To be sure though it is eternal destruction that is taught by Jesus and the apostles for the defiant unbelievers, eternal torment is reserved for the unholy trinity.

Now, for myself, I can only say this is how I see the text plainly. As for the other texts posted by others I can see alternate translations to what was posted, as opposed to the ideas they hold. If any alternate interpretations can be made about the texts I posted, please someone show me your views. I only ask to please stay scriptural.

logabe · Mar 9, 2012

justaname said:
All will confess Jesus Christ Lord. This is true, for all will be judged by Him. If He judges all, then He lords over all.
A note to Isaiah 45:23 the word "allegiance" is assumed; it is not in the original text. In fact it is not in the KJV at all.

Please refer to my previous post on eternal destruction given by Paul. 2 Thessalonians 1:9
Also Jesus speaks of eternal punishment. Matthew 25:46

Now there are other texts to bring to light also.
Isaiah 66:22-24
Daniel 12:1-2
Matthew 18:6-9
Mark 9:48
Jude 7
Revelation 14:9-11

So as for the thought of eternal punishment, we have it spoken of by the prophets, taught by Jesus, and continued by the apostles. I feel it is a sound biblical doctrine.

Another person who rejected the idea of eternal torment was Charles Taze Russell, who subsequently started the Jehovah's Witnesses movement. Just food for thought.

Okay, let's take "allegiance" out... I didn't like it there anyway. Let's focus
on swear so we want miss what God is telling us. He was telling us that
He will cause us to repent whether we like it or not. We know that a carnal
mind will look @ that and say "NO WAY" and I can tell you that most don't
believe it now. But that's not going to stop the Plan of God.

Every knee will bow in reverence to Jesus Christ whether we believe it or not.
It's our choice... but I choose to believe the Master's Plan because if you read
on they will be ashamed (Isa. 45:24).

24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are
righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

Notice what the men say and notice they were shamed of themselves for not
believing the Lord in their appointed time upon the earth. They felt like we
felt when we repented of our sins. I was ashamed of myself when God opened
my eyes and I could see the Power of the Cross.

What about Matthew 25:46?

In any discussion of the duration of the lake of fire, it inevitably boils down to
the meaning of the Greek word aionios and the Hebrew word olam. The words
literally mean “age” or “age-abiding,” but they are often translated “eternal”
or “everlasting” in the modern English translations. And so, this normally
becomes the central issue.

The judgments of God are aionios (and olam) in duration. This Greek term has
been misunderstood for about 1,500 years, but the early Church in Asia, Greece,
and Egypt understood it to mean “pertaining to an eon.” It is the adjective
form of the Greek word eon, that is, an AGE. In spite of this, many English
translations continue to translate the word to mean “eternal” or “everlasting,”
because of their doctrinal bias.

Strong's Concordance says this about the Greek word aion:

“aion: from the same as 104 [aei, ‘continued duration']; prop. an age; by
extens. perpetuity (also past); by impl. the world; spec. (Jewish) a Messianic
period (present or future).”

In other words, according to Strong's Concordance, aion properly means “an
age,” but he says that by extension it means “perpetuity.” Thus, he says that
it can mean either a limited period of time or an unlimited period of time. But
to make it an unlimited period of time requires extending its basic, usual
meaning, which is limited.

He also shows that in Jewish usage of the term, “The Age” referred to the
Messianic Age—that is, the age in which the Messiah would rule the earth.

Dr. Bullinger, in his Appendix 129 to The Companion Bible, says:

“aion = an age, or age-time, the duration of which is indefinite, and may
be limited or extended as the context of each occurrence may demand.

“The root meaning of aion is expressed by the Heb. olam . . . which
denotes indefinite, unknown or concealed duration; just as we speak of
'the patriarchal age', or ‘the golden age', etc. Hence, it has come to
denote any given period of time, characterized by a special form of Divine
administration or dispensation.

Thus, Dr. Bullinger agrees with Strong that the basic meaning of aion is an
age that lasts an indefinite period of time. In other words, some ages are
longer than others, but an age has both a beginning and an end.

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. IV, p. 643, says
under “Time,”

“The OT and the NT are not acquainted with this conception of eternity as
timelessness. God, according to Rev. 1:4, is the one ‘who is and who was
and who is to come'; and if in Rom. 16:26 (the only time in the NT) he is
called the ‘eternal [aionios] God,' this does not mean that as a timeless God
he would have nothing to do with time, but rather that he is also Lord of the
greatest spans of time, which he uses in his revelation (vs. 25).”

On page 644 of the same article, it says:

“The OT has not developed a special term for ‘eternity' which one could
contrast with ‘temporality'.”

On page 645 it says,

“The word aion originally meant ‘vital force,' ‘life;' then ‘age,' ‘lifetime.' It is,
however, also used generally of a (limited or unlimited) long space of time.
In many cases it should then be translated by ‘eternity.' To be sure, naturally,
one cannot assume a philosophical concept of eternity here either.”

This should be sufficient to show that it is by no means certain that the
Hebrew word olam (Old Testament) and the Greek word aionios (New
Testament) must be translated “eternal” or “everlasting.” This is plainly
stated in many theological dictionaries and other articles. It is unfortunate
that this fact is not transmitted to the average Christian believer—or even
to the preachers and teachers, who seem totally convinced that these words
can mean nothing other than unending time.

Hope that can clear up some things pertaining to Judgement.

Logabe

justaname · Mar 9, 2012

I understand your your standing on the word in context. Still there is the Isaiah and Mark passages that are not solved by your explanation. Also by excluding eternal related to the text as referenced to punishment you must also exclude the same from life. This is not something I am ready to so quickly dismiss as there are plenty of occasions where the text can be known as eternal as we know God to be. The covenant by which we have hope in is eternal, and the life we are given is also eternal, so by logic it should be thought the punishment for those the fire can not be quenched and the worm never dies is also eternal.

jiggyfly · Mar 10, 2012

justaname said:
I understand your your standing on the word in context. Still there is the Isaiah and Mark passages that are not solved by your explanation. Also by excluding eternal related to the text as referenced to punishment you must also exclude the same from life. This is not something I am ready to so quickly dismiss as there are plenty of occasions where the text can be known as eternal as we know God to be. The covenant by which we have hope in is eternal, and the life we are given is also eternal, so by logic it should be thought the punishment for those the fire can not be quenched and the worm never dies is also eternal.

Using this same logic since olam was used to describe how long the old covenant and all of its dynamics were to be in place, are they also forever or eternal? Then there is Jonah's time in the fish's belly, the word used there was also olam so is Jonah still in the fish's belly?

logabe · Mar 10, 2012

justaname said:
I understand your your standing on the word in context. Still there is the Isaiah and Mark passages that are not solved by your explanation. Also by excluding eternal related to the text as referenced to punishment you must also exclude the same from life. This is not something I am ready to so quickly dismiss as there are plenty of occasions where the text can be known as eternal as we know God to be. The covenant by which we have hope in is eternal, and the life we are given is also eternal, so by logic it should be thought the punishment for those the fire can not be quenched and the worm never dies is also eternal.

Let's use one of your scriptures to explain the vital position most of us are in.
Matthew 25:46 says,

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment;
but the righteous into life eternal.

One of the most tragic casualties of this mistranslation of aionian has been the
understanding of the Ages and specifically "The Age," which was a reference to
the Messianic Age to come. We read often of "the age to come" or "in the ages
to come" (Eph. 2:7). Of particular note is Mark 10:30, where Jesus says, "and in
the aion to come, aionian life."

The age to come is what they called the Messianic Age. Because we understand
two comings of Christ, we see this Messianic Age as beginning with the second
coming of Christ. I believe that it is the thousand-year period of Rev. 20:6. I call
it the Tabernacles Age, which follows the first resurrection.

Those overcomers who are raised in the first resurrection will be the first to
receive immortality during "The Age." The rest of the dead, however, will not be
so fortunate, but will have to wait until that Age is completed.

Hence, the Bible everywhere urges us to attain life in "The Age." Unfortunately,
this phrase is usually mistranslated "eternal life," as if to say "immortality." Thus,
we miss the real significance of the phrase. Yes, of course, it involves receiving
immortality, but it is telling us to strive to be an overcomer so that we may
receive this immortality in the first resurrection. That way we have immortal Life
during "The Age" to come and do not have to wait around for an extra thousand
years.

In short, aionian life specifically references TIMING, not merely the QUALITY of life.
It is immortal life IN THE AGE, not mere immortality by itself.

The point I want to make is this: when you read "everlasting" or "eternal" in the Bible,
you cannot take these translations at face value. The Hebrew word olam and its Greek
equivalent, aionian, properly mean "an age, an indefinite period of time." Hebrew
thinking in Jesus' day looked forward to the coming of the Messiah, in which He
would rule the earth with His people in a Great Sabbath millennium. This idea was
expressed in the phrase, "The Age" and "The aionian Kingdom" (2 Peter 1:11).

The things "OF HIS KINGDOM" will have no end, of course (Luke 1:33). But the
Kingdom Age itself is the final Age before the great Judgment introduces an
entirely different scenario in the earth. This comes forth in the Hebrew phrase olam
va'ad, "to the age and beyond." (used in Ex. 15:18; Ps. 9:5; Ps. 10:16; Ps. 45:6;
Dan. 12:3)

Jerome's translation, as misinterpreted by Augustine, largely eradicated the
understanding of the ages from the Latin Church, and this has carried into most
modern translations as well. Yet there are at least four translations which restore
the true meaning of aion and aionian.

So when you read Matthew 25:46 this should be the proper translation.

46 "Then they will go away to "age abiding" punishment,
but the righteous to "age abiding" life.

The proper understanding of age abiding life is you will be living in immortality in
time. Eternity is timeless. That's why all of the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 wanted
a better resurrection because they understood the significants of that Age. When
we begin to understand this pearl of great price the scriptures will begin to flow
like water.

35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again.
Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that
they might gain a better resurrection.

That scripture has a whole new meaning when you understand God's people were
using their faith to do exploits because they understood the benefits in the future
ages to come.

Paul in the New Testament says in Phil. 3:11-14,

11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from
the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already
become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold
of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid
hold of it yet ; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies
behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the
upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

That prize is called age abiding life where Paul and the rest of the Overcomers
will receive perfection and the ability to live among people who haven't received
their prize in the Tabernacles Age.

What a God... What a Plan!

Logabe

justaname · Mar 10, 2012

So are you then saying we do not have an Everlasting Father in heaven?
As far as your questions are concerned, we know the old covenant was made obsolete by the new. We know Jonah is not in the belly of the great fish. With words taking on different meanings, in times and cultures, you can play games all day long, yet there is a plain meaning about a worm that never dies and a fire that can not be quenched. Truth be told we are only attempting to decipher the meaning of language used by people long since past. You and I well too know this task is difficult at best if not impossible

olam owlam olawm

Definition of Olam: To Yoke, To Bind, To Tie Together, To Join, To Fasten, To Unite, To Weave, To be Ordered: Yoking, Binding, Tieing, Joining, Fastening, Uniting, Weaving, Ordering; Yoked, Bound, Tied, Joined, Fastened, United, Weaved or Orderly.

Please don't play games with words.

My question is when will those in hell be unyoked? Where does it say that in scripture?

logabe said:
Let's use one of your scriptures to explain the vital position most of us are in. Matthew 25:46 says, 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal. One of the most tragic casualties of this mistranslation of aionian has been the understanding of the Ages and specifically "The Age," which was a reference to the Messianic Age to come. We read often of "the age to come" or "in the ages to come" (Eph. 2:7). Of particular note is Mark 10:30, where Jesus says, "and in the aion to come, aionian life." The age to come is what they called the Messianic Age. Because we understand two comings of Christ, we see this Messianic Age as beginning with the second coming of Christ. I believe that it is the thousand-year period of Rev. 20:6. I call it the Tabernacles Age, which follows the first resurrection. Those overcomers who are raised in the first resurrection will be the first to receive immortality during "The Age." The rest of the dead, however, will not be so fortunate, but will have to wait until that Age is completed. Hence, the Bible everywhere urges us to attain life in "The Age." Unfortunately, this phrase is usually mistranslated "eternal life," as if to say "immortality." Thus, we miss the real significance of the phrase. Yes, of course, it involves receiving immortality, but it is telling us to strive to be an overcomer so that we may receive this immortality in the first resurrection. That way we have immortal Life during "The Age" to come and do not have to wait around for an extra thousand years. In short, aionian life specifically references TIMING, not merely the QUALITY of life. It is immortal life IN THE AGE, not mere immortality by itself. The point I want to make is this: when you read "everlasting" or "eternal" in the Bible, you cannot take these translations at face value. The Hebrew word olam and its Greek equivalent, aionian, properly mean "an age, an indefinite period of time." Hebrew thinking in Jesus' day looked forward to the coming of the Messiah, in which He would rule the earth with His people in a Great Sabbath millennium. This idea was expressed in the phrase, "The Age" and "The aionian Kingdom" (2 Peter 1:11). The things "OF HIS KINGDOM" will have no end, of course (Luke 1:33). But the Kingdom Age itself is the final Age before the great Judgment introduces an entirely different scenario in the earth. This comes forth in the Hebrew phrase olam va'ad, "to the age and beyond." (used in Ex. 15:18; Ps. 9:5; Ps. 10:16; Ps. 45:6; Dan. 12:3) Jerome's translation, as misinterpreted by Augustine, largely eradicated the understanding of the ages from the Latin Church, and this has carried into most modern translations as well. Yet there are at least four translations which restore the true meaning of aion and aionian. So when you read Matthew 25:46 this should be the proper translation. 46 "Then they will go away to "age abiding" punishment, but the righteous to "age abiding" life. The proper understanding of age abiding life is you will be living in immortality in time. Eternity is timeless. That's why all of the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 wanted a better resurrection because they understood the significants of that Age. When we begin to understand this pearl of great price the scriptures will begin to flow like water. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. That scripture has a whole new meaning when you understand God's people were using their faith to do exploits because they understood the benefits in the future ages to come. Paul in the New Testament says in Phil. 3:11-14, 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet ; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. That prize is called age abiding life where Paul and the rest of the Overcomers will receive perfection and the ability to live among people who haven't received their prize in the Tabernacles Age. What a God... What a Plan! Logabe

The word used here is aionios which is used 65 out of the 72 time the word eternal is translated. It is the same word used in this passage. Mark 3:29
Please explain this using your logic.

jiggyfly · Mar 10, 2012

So are you then saying we do not have an Everlasting Father in heaven?
As far as your questions are concerned, we know the old covenant was made obsolete by the new. We know Jonah is not in the belly of the great fish. With words taking on different meanings, in times and cultures, you can play games all day long, yet there is a plain meaning about a worm that never dies and a fire that can not be quenched. Truth be told we are only attempting to decipher the meaning of language used by people long since past. You and I well too know this task is difficult at best if not impossible

But none the less we are talking about the same exact words, the Hebrew word olam and the Greek word aion.

As far as the worm that never dies and the fire that can not be quenched, this is in regard to Gehenna the garbage dump out side of Jerusalem, which btw the worms are dead and the fires went out long, long ago. So again maybe the definition of these words you were given is incorrect.

If in fact the words used meant eternal, then wouldn't that indicate that the worms and fires have always existed? If so then wouldn't that mean hell has always existed?

WhiteKnuckle · Mar 10, 2012

justaname said:
This is just another thing I find interesting. Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire... Being that Jesus overcame death and also the one who had power over death, will those who are not found in the Lamb's book of life be able to overcome the second death, without Jesus doing it again? And being that Jesus did overcome this world, in order to rescue man from death once is He willing to do it again?

Now I do understand this is purely philosophical and truly can not be answered except by the HolySpirit, but I think it interesting. Being that I can not answer this is truly why I would rather preach the second death eternal as to me it is more scripturally sound.

To be sure though it is eternal destruction that is taught by Jesus and the apostles for the defiant unbelievers, eternal torment is reserved for the unholy trinity.

Now, for myself, I can only say this is how I see the text plainly. As for the other texts posted by others I can see alternate translations to what was posted, as opposed to the ideas they hold. If any alternate interpretations can be made about the texts I posted, please someone show me your views. I only ask to please stay scriptural.

Now, this is interesting. In order to understand, we need to know if demons and angels are immortal as they stand right now.

logabe · Mar 11, 2012

justaname said:
So are you then saying we do not have an Everlasting Father in heaven?
As far as your questions are concerned, we know the old covenant was made obsolete by the new. We know Jonah is not in the belly of the great fish. With words taking on different meanings, in times and cultures, you can play games all day long, yet there is a plain meaning about a worm that never dies and a fire that can not be quenched. Truth be told we are only attempting to decipher the meaning of language used by people long since past. You and I well too know this task is difficult at best if not impossible

olam owlam olawm

Definition of Olam: To Yoke, To Bind, To Tie Together, To Join, To Fasten, To Unite, To Weave, To be Ordered: Yoking, Binding, Tieing, Joining, Fastening, Uniting, Weaving, Ordering; Yoked, Bound, Tied, Joined, Fastened, United, Weaved or Orderly.

Please don't play games with words.

My question is when will those in hell be unyoked? Where does it say that in scripture?

The word used here is aionios which is used 65 out of the 72 time the word eternal is translated. It is the same word used in this passage. Mark 3:29
Please explain this using your logic.

Click to expand...

I do recognize that there are passages where the word seems to imply endlessness. For
this reason, I am willing to concede the point for the sake of argument. Conceding this
point in no way diminishes the force of our argument, because the Bible teaches the
Restoration of All Things from Genesis to Revelation without relying upon the word
aionios.

I can prove that God will save all men by showing that the divine law mandates a Jubilee,
which is a limit to all judgment. I do not need to rely upon the word aionios.

I can prove that God will save all men by the passages in the New Testament where
Jesus came to save not only us, but “the whole world” (1 John 2:2). I do not need
to rely upon the word aionios. I rely instead upon the phrase “the whole world.”

I can show it by Paul's writings, who said that all things (ta panta, “the all”) were created
by Christ and will be reconciled to him as well (Col. 1:16-20). In this, I rely upon the
phrase, ta panta, which is defined by the context as meaning the created universe.

I can show it again in Paul's writings, when he said that “as in Adam all die, even in
Christ will all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22). Even as ALL die in Adam, so will ALL be
made alive in Christ. I do not need to use aionios to prove this.

We can go to the last book of the Bible, where John sees all of creation praising God in
Rev. 5:13,

13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the
earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in
them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and
to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and dominion
forever and ever [aionas ton aionon, “for the ages of the ages”].

This passage uses the phrase aionas ton aionon, but our argument does not rest upon
that phrase, but upon the earlier phrase, “every created thing.” In these few passages
there are many ways in which God's great Restoration of creation is expressed and
established. All I must do is show that aionios does not have to mean endless time.
Once we have established that fact—as we have done—then it is self-evident that aionios
judgment cannot be used to contradict our view.

The bottom line is this: all we must do is show that aionios does not ALWAYS have to be
understood as endless time. Even our opposition concedes that there are MANY passages
where aionios cannot possibly mean endlessness. In fact, that is why they must fall back
upon the position that aionios has a double meaning. They would dearly love to make it
endless all the time, but even they know that this is impossible.

The fact is, THEY HAVE NO CASE, because these verses form the entire basis of their
doctrine. Their entire case rests upon the assumption that aionios and olam mean
endlessness.

Logabe

TruthSeeker2012 · Mar 11, 2012

Jesus talked about Gehenna and Gehenna was a literal rubbish dump, but English translators used the English word HELL for this, but in the Greek there is no such word as hell.

When Jesus used the term "Gehenna", his hearers clearly understood it to be a rubbish dump, situated south/west of Jerusalem where refuse and the bodies of criminals were burnt. But English translators made it into HELL an English word that never exists in the original Greek.

Since rubbish and dead criminals and bodies were continuously added, the fires were perpetually flamed and kept alight. However, individual bodies did not burn endlessly, they became ashes! Eternal hellfire is ONLY taught in English translations, it is not taught in the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts.

Not once did Jesus say a place will burn the lost forever! Certain people only get this understanding from the English Bible. Nowhere in the Hebrew or Greek manuscripts does it talk about an eternal hellfire!

justaname · Mar 11, 2012

I think the key understanding of Gehenna is it's location outside the city. My point being Hebrews 13:11-14

Being that the goats are separated from the sheep, some will be brought into the camp where others will be left outside. Then those outside will gnash their teeth and they will weep, they will try to knock but our Lord will say "I do not know you." I still have not seen one text that disproves the eternality or ultimate finality of that judgement.

If there is one please post it; this is more of a plea than a challenge.

Shirley · Mar 11, 2012

My personal understanding is that the goats are killed in gehenna. I studied long and hard and read every word of the Bible asking for wisdom all the while. Eternal death. Lake of fire = Second death in Gehenna. Final Judgement. the wages of sin is death. Thank you Jesus for forgiving me and giving me the hope of eternal life! Thankyou that I do not have to fear being eternally destroyed in Ghehenna,the second death. May I endure to the hope of eternal life, the gift you promised! May I be faithful to attain the first resurrection so that I need not fear the second death. I really want to stand at the judgement seat of Christ, our king!

TruthSeeker2012 · Mar 11, 2012

The redeemed are given 2 major things that the lost are not, which gives them the ability to live forever with God.

1. Immortality.

2. Access to the Tree of Life.

The lost will be denied those 2 things, hence, they will DIE and PERISH and be no more!

It's impossible for the lost to live forever in "eternal hell" because they will not have immortality and not have access to the Tree of Life, 2 important things needed to live forever.

veteran · Mar 13, 2012

Pointer to Satan...

Ezek 28:13-15
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(KJV)

Ezek 28:18
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(KJV)

Since Satan and his angels are already judged and sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire", that will be the fate of all those perish in that fire with him, being turned to ashes, just like what TruthSeeker2012 revealed.

justaname · Mar 13, 2012

veteran said:
Pointer to Satan... Ezek 28:13-15 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (KJV) Ezek 28:18 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. (KJV) Since Satan and his angels are already judged and sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire", that will be the fate of all those perish in that fire with him, being turned to ashes, just like what TruthSeeker2012 revealed.

Malachi 4:3

You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

Revelation 20:10

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

These speak of the same things, as far as Satan being overcome, yet the conclusion is different. Not that the text is confusing, only that it seems the devil never dies.

TruthSeeker2012 · Mar 14, 2012

justaname said:
What happens to the damned?

They are destroyed in the lake of fire and will cease to exist!

Eternal sleep[death] is the wages for those who reject Jesus - John 3:36, Rom 6:23, Psa 37:20,104:35. They will burn, and burn up and be no more in a lake of fire which will eventually burn out - Oba 1:16.

This is what Bible says will happen to the lost, suffer "death" (Romans 6:23) , suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30), "shall perish" (Psalm 37:20), will "burn" up [Not a root or a branch will be left to them.] (Malachi 4:1), Malachi 4:3 "Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the LORD Almighty.", "shall be destroyed together" (Psalm 37:38), the wicked shall not be (Psa 37:10), will "consume away" (Psalm 37:20), "shall be cut off" (Psalm 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3), God will "destroy" them (Psalm 145:20), "fire will devour them." (Psalm 21:9) They shall be as though they had not been.(Oba 1 16), they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish (Isa 41:11), the wicked be no more (Psa 104:35), the wicked no more (Pro 10:25)

In no way should these clear words be misunderstood by one who honestly desires to know truth. There is a fire reserved for the wicked, but a fire so hot it will utterly destroy all who are engulfed by it. When the fire has done its work, it will go out. Eternally burning fire is not taught anywhere in the Bible--not even in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The English word eternal[ Greek "aionios"] DOES NOT always mean unending as we know the word in the Bible.

God bless.

The Lake of Fire

Do people or souls enter eternal punishment?

Yes

No

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