Amillenialism, True or False?

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veteran said:

I'm starting this thread on Amillenialsim for those who wish to participate. I want to understand why some support that view.

Definition of Amillenial position:

This view rejects the idea of a future literal thousand years reign by our Lord Jesus, and instead treats that period of Rev.20 as 'symbolic' only. It instead supports the Rev.20 thousand years idea as Christ's reign having begun with the so-called Church Age when Jerusalem was destroyed in 69 A.D. by the Romans.

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We do not have license to reject what is clear in the bible

Arnie Manitoba said:

The problem begins as highlighted in red below .

We do not have license to reject what is clear in the bible

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Ain't that the truth! :lol:

daq said:

I can't believe I read this entire thread! :huh: Rach you rock!

Deuteronomy 11:18-21 KJV
18. Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
19. And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
20. And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:
21. That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth.

The Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the Lord God of Israel, which had appeared unto him pa`amayim, (1Kings 11:9) and the Preacher knew what it was to live a thousand years pa`amayim, (Ecclesiastes 6:6).

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Ok, now the floor is yours Arnie . . .

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If we are living in the Kingdom right now and Jesus is reining right now ....

God Help us !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Veteran

Arnie Manitoba said:

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The problem begins as highlighted in red below .
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We do not have license to reject what is clear in the bible

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Its also "clear" that a giant sea-dragon is going to emerge out of the sea and that angels will scoop people out of the earth with giant sickles...and in heaven Jesus will have the appearance of a wrathful four hoved creature with wool. I mean, these statements are all very "clear" and we wouldnt want to ignore their clarity by symbolizing them...right?

Wormwood said:

Its also "clear" that a giant sea-dragon is going to emerge out of the sea and that angels will scoop people out of the earth with giant sickles...and in heaven Jesus will have the appearance of a wrathful four hoved creature with wool. I mean, these statements are all very "clear" and we wouldnt want to ignore their clarity by symbolizing them...right?

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Looked like a dragon
Looked like a beast
Looked like a lamb

A great sign appeared in heaven
Then another sign appeared in heaven
an enormous red dragon

The great dragon was hurled down
that ancient serpent
called the devil
or Satan

Shalom, Wormwood.

Wormwood said:

Its also "clear" that a giant sea-dragon is going to emerge out of the sea and that angels will scoop people out of the earth with giant sickles...and in heaven Jesus will have the appearance of a wrathful four hoved creature with wool. I mean, these statements are all very "clear" and we wouldnt want to ignore their clarity by symbolizing them...right?

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I don't believe that ANYONE here thinks that there weren't symbols in the Bible. However, there's a BIG difference between symbology (the study of symbols) and symbolatry (a "coined" word for the WORSHIP of symbols for symbols' sake)!

The allegorical method of interpretation is just that. It teaches that symbols are REPLETE throughout the Bible, whether identified as symbols or not!

The people of the Land of Isra'el were FARMERS AND RANCHERS! They knew LIVESTOCK and they knew FARMING AND HARVESTING! They also KNEW the God of the Bible and the sacrificial system that HE set up for them. Indeed, their ancestors had actually SEEN the mountain on fire and the glory of God! They hid in their tents from it! They begged Mosheh (Moses) to meet with God for them! Therefore, it is to be EXPECTED that they would use such analogies. The PROPHECIES OF GOD through His spokesmen the prophets gave them the symbology of the Lamb (haKeves)!

Jeremiah 11:11-20
11 Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.
12 Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.
13 For according to the number of thy cities were thy gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem have ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even altars to burn incense unto Baal.
14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.
15 What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest.
16 The Lord called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
17 For the Lord of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.
18 And the Lord hath given me knowledge of it, and I know it: then thou shewedst me their doings.
19 But I was like a lamb (Hebrew: keves) or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.
20 But, O Lord of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause.
KJV

Ezekiel 46:13-15
13 Thou shalt daily prepare a burnt offering unto the Lord of a lamb of the first year without blemish: thou shalt prepare it every morning.
14 And thou shalt prepare a meat offering for it every morning, the sixth part of an ephah, and the third part of an hin of oil, to temper with the fine flour; a meat offering continually by a perpetual ordinance unto the Lord.
15 Thus shall they prepare the lamb, and the meat offering, and the oil, every morning for a continual burnt offering.
KJV

Yechezk'el (Ezekiel) describes the daily sacrifice! This is precisely echoed in Hebrews 9 and 10:

Hebrews 9:11-10:22
11 But Christ (the Messiah) being come an high priest (Hebrew: cohen hagadol) of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle (Greek: skeenee = tent), not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his OWN blood he entered in ONCE into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ (the Messiah), who through the eternal Spirit (the Ruach haQodesh) offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament (will) is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now ONCE in the END of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the SECOND time without sin unto salvation (rescue).
10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a BODY hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered ONE SACRIFICE for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth EXPECTING till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by ONE OFFERING he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus (Yeshua`),
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV

And, what is that "skeenee," that "tent?"

Revelation 21:1-4

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ouranos = sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: skeenee = tent) of God is with men, and he will dwell (Greek: skeenoosei = he-will-tent) with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV


So, is it so wrong to see Yeshua` as the Lamb, haKeves, the One-Time Sacrifice for all perfected men that is acceptable FOREVER? He was called "The Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world!" The better method of the interpretation of the Scriptures is the grammatical-historical method. Accept the Word of God as a book written by individual men AND by an infinite God. The men kept it real, simple, and as clear as the telling of any history. God kept it consistent throughout its development down through the centuries!

Arnie,

Do you really want to go there? I assure you I can provide you a list of about 100 obvious symbols in Revelation (including numbers) that do not say anything about "looked like" or "appeared" to indicate they are symbols.

Revelation 2:10 - Everyone in the church was going to be tested exactly 10 days and no longer? Then how can he say "be faithful even to death"?
Revelation 7:1 - four angels at the "four corners" of the earth holding the "four winds"
Revelation 5:6 - the lamb has seven horn and seven eyes...why is that again?
Revelation 12:14 - a woman is given wings like an eagle to fly away into a desert
Revelation 14:14 - the reaping with a sickle does not say "looked like." It simply says "I saw."

Look, all the numbers in Revelation are symbolic. 7 churches, 7 seals, 7 horns, 7 eyes, 7,000 die in an earthquake (7x1,000), 144,000 dressed in white (12x12x1,000), 10 days of persecution, 10 horns, 10 crowns, 10 thousand x 10 thousand + 1,000 x 1,000 angels (Rev. 5:11), 10 thousand x 10 thousand x 2 soldiers (Rev. 9:16), and the 1,000 year release of Satan to name just a few. If we are going to embrace all this as "clear" and exact, then the number of mounted troops in Revelation 9:16 is exactly 100,000,000 x 2 and the angels in heaven number exactly 101,000,000.

This is silly. This is imposing a modern Western scientific mindset on a poetic and apocalyptic book. This is not to say that Revelation is not real and true...but it is to say that these images communicate spiritual truths and are not to communicate exact scientific facts. When a woman is called a "10" it signifies her beauty and is not to an attempt to measure her quantitatively or describe her appearance in terms of literal numerals. Angels aren't going to scoop us up with million mile long sickle blades nor did John go through in his vision and count every single angel or soldier.

In my estimation, the 1,000 (10 x 10 (numbers signifying completion)) in Revelation 20 is pretty much the ONLY number in the book that people DONT understand symbolically and I find that to be a little odd. I propose we look at the book consistently and not impose western standards on eastern apocalyptic writings describing visions that go beyond human language.

Retro-

I was being facetious. I do not interpret the entire Bible allegorically or symbolically. The apocalyptic visions in Revelation and Daniel are another matter. You should read some apocalyptic literature during this time period and you have a better appreciation for what Revelation communicates.

( A) lutheran millianialists believe Jesus reign is for ever and ever .

Jesus was even keeping the universe together as a little babe in a manger .

we thought every one knew that..

the bible tells us God's reighn is forever !


have you ever heard a mighty force is our God? Jesus holds the one true God title forever .. as the song says

have you ever heard handels messiah? and he shall reign for ever and ever!!

horsecamp-

who are you talking to? to what are you referring?

Wormwood said:

horsecamp-

who are you talking to? to what are you referring?

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no one in paticular--- i am just answering the question and giving a reason why its true..
Amillenialism, True or False?

confessional Lutherans are A or better said Non Millenial.

we believe Jesus ALWAYS HAS AND ALWAYS WILL reign


we also believe a person-- convinced against there will--- will be of the same opinion still.

so there is not much use in arguing with people..

you see we believe the holy Ghost must make the unwilling willing to believe spirtual matters.

Arnie Manitoba said:

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If we are living in the Kingdom right now and Jesus is reining right now ....

God Help us !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Well......um. He kinda is alreadly ruling and reigning right now.....

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. (Ephesians 1:20-23, ESV)

Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matthew 26:64, ESV)

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (Matthew 28:18, ESV)

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. (John 5:26-27 ESV)

Whether Amillenialism is right or wrong.....the bible clearly teaches that Jesus is even now seated at the Right hand of the Father, ruling and reigning. He is above all other power or authority.

So then....the question becomes....and it's a question that leads us closer to the subject at hand....how is it that Christ can be 'ruling and reigning' in a world that is far from perfect yet?

Arnie Manitoba said:

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The problem begins as highlighted in red below .
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We do not have license to reject what is clear in the bible

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exactly it is clear by the whole chapter God here was talking in picture language

it is also clear that John made it very clear he was CAUGHT UP IN THE SPIRIT ..
another indication God would be talking to us in picture language And should not be taken as we normaly do..

and guess what the christian church closist to the time of Christ also took this chapter as God intended
picture language ..or as non millineal .. we know this by the testamony of the early church..`

taking God literly is taking him to be talking to us in picture language when he indicates to us he is doing so..

it is not A millinealists who are not taking God Literaly IT IS You .. another indication your wrong is

you will find no mention of this supposed kingdom that God will set up any where in the bible.

if Christ was to have a earthly reign for a thousand years he would talk about it would he not?

instead he tells pilot ---------- My kindom is not of this earth.

Lutheran pastor challenged the teacher to find a single Bible passage in which Jesus sets up a thousand year reign on the earth. The teacher tells of his amazement as he searched the Scriptures and realized that the millennium as he thought of it was nowhere in the Bible.


http://www.whataboutjesus.com/jesus-christ/his-return-judgment-day-series/when-will-jesus-1000-year-reign-beginhttp://www.whataboutjesus.com/jesus-christ/his-return-judgment-day-series/when-will-jesus-1000-year-reign-begin

Arnie Manitoba said:

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If we are living in the Kingdom right now and Jesus is reining right now ....
God Help us !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Jesus told pilot his kingdom is not of this earth .. Do you think he was lying to him?

and yes he is reighning who do you think keeps the planets in there orbits
And allows you and me to live ?

Rach said:

Well......um. He kinda is alreadly ruling and reigning right now.....

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. (Ephesians 1:20-23, ESV)

Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matthew 26:64, ESV)

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (Matthew 28:18, ESV)

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. (John 5:26-27 ESV)

Whether Amillenialism is right or wrong.....the bible clearly teaches that Jesus is even now seated at the Right hand of the Father, ruling and reigning. He is above all other power or authority.

So then....the question becomes....and it's a question that leads us closer to the subject at hand....how is it that Christ can be 'ruling and reigning' in a world that is far from perfect yet?

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one way is that Christ makes even the bad work for the good of those who love him .

AND WE MUST NEVER FORGET PSALM 2..or the other psalms .. The evil ones may think they have the upper hand but they do not its at Gods pleasure they live or die

Shalom, horsecamp.

Millennialists (at least, those who study the Scriptures) know that Yeshua` will indeed reign forever (Luke 1:30-33). However, there is also the mention of a "millennium," Latin contraction for "a thousand years" (Greek: chilia etee, using "ee" for eta), in Revelation 20:1-7. To some, they merely gloss this over by saying a "thousand years" is just a long time. To others, they let the Scriptures mean what they say and agree that the number of years is (...998, 999, ...) 1000.

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

The problem is a lacking in definition and detail: WHAT determines this 1,000-year period? When one says "1000-year reign of Christ," the phrase itself is misleading. It IMPLIES that the DURATION of Christ's reign is just 1,000 years, and that we know (from the Scripture passage above) is WRONG!

So, it would be wise to investigate the passage that is used for the "millennium" for its details (I include 1 more verse to complete the sentence):

Revelation 20:1-8
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
KJV

Thus, the timing of this passage is that at the beginning of this 1000-year period, haSatan is chained and incarcerated in the abussos-the pit with "no bottom" or the "unsounded depth" of the pit; at the end of the 1000-year period, he is released. During that time, Yeshua` the Messiah (Christ) will be reigning, and others from the first resurrection will be reigning with Him. The first resurrection is at the beginning of the 1000-year period and the second death (which includes the second resurrection) is after the 1000-year period.

At first, I thought that Yeshua` reigns forever but the saints only reign with his for the 1000-year period, but that is NOT right, for in Revelation 22:3-5 John said,...

Revelation 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

So, the saints continue to reign after the 1000-year period. Therefore, the ONLY things that distinguish the 1000-year period are (1) the incarceration of haSatan and (2) the Great White Throne Judgment after the 1000-year period.

Thus, it is not the "thousand-year reign of Christ"; it is the "FIRST one thousand years of Christ's reign."

And, we are NOT in this "1000-year period," yet, because of haSatan it is said,

1 Peter 5:8-9
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
KJV

He has both the freedom to "walk about" and he is looking for "whom he may devour." Some mistakenly say that this "lion" already has his teeth pulled, but this verse suggests he still has the power to devour the unsuspecting!

-------

Shalom, Rach.

Rach said:

Well......um. He kinda is alreadly ruling and reigning right now.....

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. (Ephesians 1:20-23, ESV)

Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matthew 26:64, ESV)

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (Matthew 28:18, ESV)

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. (John 5:26-27 ESV)

Whether Amillenialism is right or wrong.....the bible clearly teaches that Jesus is even now seated at the Right hand of the Father, ruling and reigning. He is above all other power or authority.

So then....the question becomes....and it's a question that leads us closer to the subject at hand....how is it that Christ can be 'ruling and reigning' in a world that is far from perfect yet?

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Well, ... um ... NO, He is NOT reigning right now, not even "kinda!" When Yeshua` reigns as King, it will be so obviously different than what people think is His "kingdom" today, that the very thought that THIS could be His Kingdom will be LAUGHABLE when He returns! A LOT of people are going to be embarrassed even to admit that they thought THIS could be the Kingdom!

Let's back up a bit in Ephesians chapter 1:

Ephesians 1:15-23
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope (Greek: "elpis" = "expectation; confidence; assurance") of his calling, and what the riches of the glory (Greek: "doxa" = "apparency; brightness") of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places (Greek: "en tois epouraniois" = "in the [places] above-the-sky"),
21 Far above (Greek: "huperanoo" = "over the top of; greatly higher in position than") all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
KJV

This passage does NOT say that He is reigning; it says that he is PHYSICALLY BEYOND THE REACH of all principalities, powers, might, and dominions! Everything is LITERALLY under His feet! Nowhere in this passage is a form of basileuoo (NT:936) meaning "to rule" or "to reign!"

Look carefully at Matthew 26:64:

Matthew 26:62-64
62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
KJV

The passage does NOT say that He is currently reigning! In fact, it says "HEREAFTER!" The NIV says "IN THE FUTURE!" The Greek words are "ap' arti" meaning "off/away-from now." And, frankly, that is not what the cohen hagadol (the high priest) was asking anyway!

In Matthew 28:18, Yeshua` was NOT saying that He was already come into His Kingship role! He said all AUTHORITY or POWER (Greek: exousia = right). While He was given every RIGHT to rule and has the AUTHORITY to rule, it does NOT mean that He is RULING, yet!

And, in John 5:26-27, it is likewise important for you all to understand that having the AUTHORITY to judge does NOT mean that He is currently judging! Indeed, the context talks about His having the power to raise the dead to execute judgment IN THE FUTURE!

John 5:25-30
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
KJV

So, don't make the mistake of reading into ANY of these passages the thought that the Messiah is currently reigning! The Bible does NOT "clearly teach that Jesus is even now seated at the Right hand of the Father, ruling and reigning." That is a LIE! So the answer to your question is simple: The reason why this world is as bad as it is is BECAUSE He is NOT currently reigning!

Hey Retro......sorry, I happen to disagree with you, strongly...and I really must question your use of sarcasm....was it truly called for? I don't recall having a conversation with you before, so I must wonder what it is about me that you find offensive enough to make those low blows?

I don't believe I particularly want to get into this with you, as any conversation started as you just did will lead nowhere edifying. I've also found that those who 'argue' for their end times beliefs get nasty beyond reason. I refuse to lower myself to that, so we'll leave it at: I disagree with you and your interpretation of scripture.

Good day.

Shalom, Rach.

Rach said:

Hey Retro......sorry, I happen to disagree with you, strongly...and I really must question your use of sarcasm....was it truly called for? I don't recall having a conversation with you before, so I must wonder what it is about me that you find offensive enough to make those low blows?

I don't believe I particularly want to get into this with you, as any conversation started as you just did will lead nowhere edifying. I've also found that those who 'argue' for their end times beliefs get nasty beyond reason. I refuse to lower myself to that, so we'll leave it at: I disagree with you and your interpretation of scripture.

Good day.

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I have offended you, and I am truly sorry for my offense. I was too aggressive in my approach, and no, it was not (or should not) have been directed at you personally. Please understand: sarcasm can be interpreted as mere irony, although it can also be taken as causticity.

Of course you're free to disagree with me, strongly or otherwise, but I still think I'm right. Go figure. Anyway, we can agree to disagree, and I'm good with that. Call it sensitivity to some of the "conversations" I've had here with others who are less ... well ... diplomatic.

Again, I am sorry for offending you.

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Rach.


I have offended you, and I am truly sorry for my offense. I was too aggressive in my approach, and no, it was not (or should not) have been directed at you personally. Please understand: sarcasm can be interpreted as mere irony, although it can also be taken as causticity.

Of course you're free to disagree with me, strongly or otherwise, but I still think I'm right. Go figure. Anyway, we can agree to disagree, and I'm good with that. Call it sensitivity to some of the "conversations" I've had here with others who are less ... well ... diplomatic.

Again, I am sorry for offending you.

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So your belittling of yet another person here is the fault of someone else besides yourself? I suppose I do not not need to wonder too long so as to understand who that "someone else" might be that you imply here since it is mainly myself that you have felt you have had to "war against" since the day I first arrived here, (anyone can quickly and easily peruse the only four threads I have posted here in the eschatology board from the links in my signature to see that this is the truth). Is it the fault of someone else that you cannot help belittling those who disagree with you? The truth according to the Master is that what proceeds from your mouth came forth from your own heart. How can you lecture anyone about "diplomacy" when what you yourself appear to practice is a form of "Mabus-Mao-Stalin" diplomacy. Is it also the fault of one of the former presidents that you say and do the things you say and do? :lol: Your version of "meeting someone half way" or "agreeing to disagree" is the same as Mabus, Mao, and Stalin also; which is so long as the opposing opinions either fall silent or totally concede and fall at your feet. You cannot resist doing what you do even when it comes to speaking with a moderator; and surely it is because you spoke to a moderator that what you have said herein is indeed very mild compared to your own set of standard operating procedures laid out for all to see in many threads throughout this same eschatology forum board. No wonder this board appears to be dying on the vine; for who wants to enter into a discussion and express what they believe knowing that "Retrobyter" will be along to castigate and berate them without cause? Your tactics are those of a dictator and a dictator knows nothing of true diplomacy because he believes himself to be above everyone else around him.

.

Some folks are completely bananas

Symbolically , of course

Arnie Manitoba said:

.

Some folks are completely bananas

Symbolically , of course

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So your own personal opinion of someone, ( i.e. "bananas") justifies your entering into a new member introduction thread and asking a male if he "wears a dress" in what can only be described as an obvious attempt to create an embarrassing situation for that person? The only alternative, if you want to deny that you were attempting to embarrass that person in front of everyone, is that perhaps you were serious. Who is truly "bananas" if not the man who would ask another man in a Christian introduction board if indeed he wears a dress? Perhaps the biggest problem for the ego-monsters here in the eschatology board is the fact that they have failed to humiliate someone into submission and silence? Symbolism or not I submit to Messiah and no other man when it comes to men and their doctrines: likewise I distinctly remember having told you that I do not wear a dress; and hereafter please know also that I would still not be your type even if I did lean toward your apparent choice of unbiblical lifestyles. :lol:

Matthew 13:12-15 KJV
12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

John 12:37-41 KJV
37. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38. That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39. Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40. He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. [Yeshayah 6]

Arnie Manitoba said:

If we are living in the Kingdom right now and Jesus is reining right now ....

God Help us !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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veteran said:

That's where you and I both agree.


Got to agree on that too. Just because of how all the evil still exists on earth ought to be a big enough sign to understand that Christ is not reigning here on earth yet.

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And whose carcasses were they that fell in the wilderness? They were the murmurers, complainers, lusters after the flesh, seeing all things according to the belly of the flesh, (which is to walk upon the belly as that old serpent from the beginning) and those likewise died because they were stiff-necked, full of all rebellion with uncircumcised hearts, and refused to receive that true Manna which God gave from heaven, (which is every word which proceeds from the mouth of God). Anyone who thinks that he or she cannot end up the same way is mistaken, for it is not that anyone prayed a simple "sinners prayer" and his name was then written in the Book of Life; rather, it is that his name was already written therein at the Cross and Resurrection of Messiah and now it remains his or her own to maintain in faithfulness because it is the High Priest Yeshua that has the power and authority from the Father to blot out names from the Book of Life, (Revelation 3:5).

Hebrews 3:7-19 KJV
7. Wherefore ( as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8. Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9. When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest. )
12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15. While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18. And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19. So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.