Amillenialism, True or False?
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Nice try Arnie, but I find lack of denial either way concerning your own proclivities in your rhetorical retort, and likewise it was you who asked me if I "wear a dress" insinuating that I might be a homosexual. I told you I do not wear a dress and now have made that fact even more clear: and what other way should one take the things you say and write when you proudly confess that you see everything as literal and physical? Yet you would attempt to turn what you have said into the fault of someone else again here just as your buddy Retrobyter. Do the two of you not know what it means to be a spiritual Sodomite? It is anyone who forces himself, his dogmas, and his own will upon other people; and especially through bully-pulpit intimidation tactics such as you and your comrades in arms have exhibited throughout these forums, ("veteran" is likewise included even as shown in this thread from the start and in many other places). For the same reason the Prophets used the terms Sodom and Gomorrah against the priesthood, the rulers of the people, and the false prophets proclaiming peace and safety for their own benefit when there was none, (Isaiah 1:10-15, Isaiah 3:9, Jeremiah 23:14-18, Ezekiel 16). Perhaps it is not even a wise idea for one such as yourself to go around calling people "bananas" much less all the murmuring and complaining you do as you continue your trek through the desert.Arnie Manitoba said:
Hi daq,
1 Samuel 25: 23 And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, 24 And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, upon me let this iniquity be: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid. 25 Let not my lord, I pray thee, regard this man of Belial, even Nabal: for as his name is, so is he; Nabal is his name, and folly is with him: but I thine handmaid saw not the young men of my lord, whom thou didst send. 26 Now therefore, my lord, as the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, seeing the Lord hath withholden thee from coming to shed blood, and from avenging thyself with thine own hand, now let thine enemies, and they that seek evil to my lord, be as Nabal. 27 And now this blessing which thine handmaid hath brought unto my lord, let it even be given unto the young men that follow my lord. 28 I pray thee, forgive the trespass of thine handmaid: for the Lord will certainly make my lord a sure house; because my lord fighteth the battles of the Lord, and evil hath not been found in thee all thy days. 29 Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the Lord thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, as out of the middle of a sling. 30 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord shall have done to my lord according to all the good that he hath spoken concerning thee, and shall have appointed thee ruler over Israel; 31 That this shall be no grief unto thee, nor offence of heart unto my lord, either that thou hast shed blood causeless, or that my lord hath avenged himself: but when the Lord shall have dealt well with my lord, then remember thine handmaid.
Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. 14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Yep! Perhaps even from when the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4. This is not New Covenant news, either.rather, it is that his name was already written therein at the Cross and Resurrection of Messiah and now it remains his or her own to maintain in faithfulness because it is the High Priest Yeshua that has the power and authority from the Father to blot out names from the Book of Life, (Revelation 3:5).
1 Samuel 25: 23 And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, 24 And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, upon me let this iniquity be: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid. 25 Let not my lord, I pray thee, regard this man of Belial, even Nabal: for as his name is, so is he; Nabal is his name, and folly is with him: but I thine handmaid saw not the young men of my lord, whom thou didst send. 26 Now therefore, my lord, as the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, seeing the Lord hath withholden thee from coming to shed blood, and from avenging thyself with thine own hand, now let thine enemies, and they that seek evil to my lord, be as Nabal. 27 And now this blessing which thine handmaid hath brought unto my lord, let it even be given unto the young men that follow my lord. 28 I pray thee, forgive the trespass of thine handmaid: for the Lord will certainly make my lord a sure house; because my lord fighteth the battles of the Lord, and evil hath not been found in thee all thy days. 29 Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the Lord thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, as out of the middle of a sling. 30 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord shall have done to my lord according to all the good that he hath spoken concerning thee, and shall have appointed thee ruler over Israel; 31 That this shall be no grief unto thee, nor offence of heart unto my lord, either that thou hast shed blood causeless, or that my lord hath avenged himself: but when the Lord shall have dealt well with my lord, then remember thine handmaid.
Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. 14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Hebrew mindset from the Epistle to the Hebrews:dragonfly said:
Hebrews 7:9-10 ASV
9. And, so to say, through Abraham even Levi, who receiveth tithes, hath paid tithes;
10. for he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchizedek met him.
If then Levi is considered to have paid tithes to Melchizedek before he was even born, because he was in the loins of father Abraham, then how does this thinking apply to these things? The first chapter of John says: "In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in darkness; and the darkness cannot overcome it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John, (the Baptist). The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:4-9). Yeshua then says: "I am Light having come into the world; that all who are believing into me shall not remain in the darkness" (John 12:46). If then that Light which lightens every man which comes into the world was slain what happens to every man? His Light, (which is Messiah) has died; thus, every man died when Yeshua was crucified because the Light that lightened the man died. This is exactly what Paul likewise states to be the case:
2 Corinthians 5:14-17 ASV
14. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;
15. and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again.
16. Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.
17. Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.
We thus judge that one died for all and therefore ALL DIED.
And if all died according to the Scripture then all men were raised back up in the Resurrection of Messiah with a clean slate. And as Paul writes we were literally buried with him in the baptism of his death and raised up anew with him in that Great Day. It is therefore expedient that every true disciple of Yeshua walk out the plan of the Good News and reveal the truth to his neighbor; preaching the Good News to all nations, carrying out the great commission, for there is a resurrection to everlasting life and a resurrection to shame and everlasting contempt, (Daniel 12:2) for those who choose to receive not the love of the Truth. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. The name of the Son is all of his Word-Doctrine just as the name of the Father is all of his Word-Doctrine.
In the day that Messiah died all men likewise died, for the Light of every man died, even every living soul that was in the Sea died in that Great Day of the Atonement of the world, (Revelation 16:3) even though every one of us were merely "swimmers" at that time in a sea of humanity; for it is no different than Levi, (and thus the Levitical Priesthood) who paid tithes to Melchizedek while Levi was yet in the loins of father Abraham. Yeshua says "My kingdom is not of this kosmos-world-order" and his kosmos-world-order was founded in the day of his crucifixion and inaugurated with his Resurrection and the Shavuot-Pentecost which followed in Acts 2. That which was Spirit and Above in the Beginning did come to pass below in the literal and in the flesh in the End, which End is in the Cross of Yeshua, and his Testimony is therefore Law, and now the flesh profits absolutely nothing.
Wormwood
Chaps
Daq,daq said:So your belittling of yet another person here is the fault of someone else besides yourself? I suppose I do not not need to wonder too long so as to understand who that "someone else" might be that you imply here since it is mainly myself that you have felt you have had to "war against" since the day I first arrived here, (anyone can quickly and easily peruse the only four threads I have posted here in the eschatology board from the links in my signature to see that this is the truth). Is it the fault of someone else that you cannot help belittling those who disagree with you? The truth according to the Master is that what proceeds from your mouth came forth from your own heart. How can you lecture anyone about "diplomacy" when what you yourself appear to practice is a form of "Mabus-Mao-Stalin" diplomacy. Is it also the fault of one of the former presidents that you say and do the things you say and do? :lol: Your version of "meeting someone half way" or "agreeing to disagree" is the same as Mabus, Mao, and Stalin also; which is so long as the opposing opinions either fall silent or totally concede and fall at your feet. You cannot resist doing what you do even when it comes to speaking with a moderator; and surely it is because you spoke to a moderator that what you have said herein is indeed very mild compared to your own set of standard operating procedures laid out for all to see in many threads throughout this same eschatology forum board. No wonder this board appears to be dying on the vine; for who wants to enter into a discussion and express what they believe knowing that "Retrobyter" will be along to castigate and berate them without cause? Your tactics are those of a dictator and a dictator knows nothing of true diplomacy because he believes himself to be above everyone else around him.
If you do not have a comment about the topic of the thread, its probably best that you keep the comment to yourself. Retro apologized for the way the comments came across to Rach and that should be applauded. Let's not kick someone when they are down. These comments add nothing to the discussion nor do they address the OP.
It always amazes me how people get so violent over their 'end times' philosophies. I mean, I get the pull of it....it's fascinating stuff, and it's talking about one of the most amazing topics ever....Jesus returning!
Most of us have an understanding of what scripture says in regards to this event....most often they aren't the same understanding.
The thing I don't get is....just because I see the bible saying something different to what you see, does it then hold that I am a slug and must be treated as such?? Becuase most times, whenever I venture onto an 'end times' forum or board....thats all I see. People fighting and name slinging.
Come on people....as different as all the 'positions' are, they still focus on one thing: Jesus....and Him returning.
And it doesn't matter if thats before or after the Tribulation (if there is one) or before or after a physical 1000 year reign (if there is one)...all that matters is that as you are my brothers and sisters, when that time comes, we're all going to be celebrating together in Christ's presence.....isn't that worth just a bit of unity and effort of civility??
And Retro, thanks for the apology....I may have responded very defensively, but as I've said....I've yet to meet someone "into" the end times, that has not been out to strip me raw over my views. But thanks again.
Most of us have an understanding of what scripture says in regards to this event....most often they aren't the same understanding.
The thing I don't get is....just because I see the bible saying something different to what you see, does it then hold that I am a slug and must be treated as such?? Becuase most times, whenever I venture onto an 'end times' forum or board....thats all I see. People fighting and name slinging.
Come on people....as different as all the 'positions' are, they still focus on one thing: Jesus....and Him returning.
And it doesn't matter if thats before or after the Tribulation (if there is one) or before or after a physical 1000 year reign (if there is one)...all that matters is that as you are my brothers and sisters, when that time comes, we're all going to be celebrating together in Christ's presence.....isn't that worth just a bit of unity and effort of civility??
And Retro, thanks for the apology....I may have responded very defensively, but as I've said....I've yet to meet someone "into" the end times, that has not been out to strip me raw over my views. But thanks again.
Sorry daqdaq said:Nice try Arnie, but I find lack of denial either way concerning your own proclivities in your rhetorical retort, and likewise it was you who asked me if I "wear a dress" insinuating that I might be a homosexual. I told you I do not wear a dress and now have made that fact even more clear: and what other way should one take the things you say and write when you proudly confess that you see everything as literal and physical? Yet you would attempt to turn what you have said into the fault of someone else again here just as your buddy Retrobyter. Do the two of you not know what it means to be a spiritual Sodomite? It is anyone who forces himself, his dogmas, and his own will upon other people; and especially through bully-pulpit intimidation tactics such as you and your comrades in arms have exhibited throughout these forums, ("veteran" is likewise included even as shown in this thread from the start and in many other places). For the same reason the Prophets used the terms Sodom and Gomorrah against the priesthood, the rulers of the people, and the false prophets proclaiming peace and safety for their own benefit when there was none, (Isaiah 1:10-15, Isaiah 3:9, Jeremiah 23:14-18, Ezekiel 16). Perhaps it is not even a wise idea for one such as yourself to go around calling people "bananas" much less all the murmuring and complaining you do as you continue your trek through the desert.
.... but it was YOU a while back had endless posts and pictures of some kind of a dress representing some kind of a temple representing YOU
So please dont get confused about who is doing what . OK ??
Now lately you have pictures of rib cages .
I still think it is completely bananas
But that's just me.
veteran said:
Retrobyter said:
veteran said:
Retrobyter said:
veteran said:
veteran said:
Rach said:
veteran said:
veteran said:
Retrobyter said:
veteran said:
Retrobyter said:
Retrobyter said:
Arnie Manitoba said:
Matthew 5:29 KJVWormwood said:
29. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 6:23-24 KJV
22. The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Wormwood
Chaps
Daq-
Most of those comments were given in reference to a point debated in a forum. Although I do not agree with the tone of some of them and I am not excusing them, they are very different from your comment against Retro that was simply an attack after an apology. It had nothing to do with a doctrinal debate or the OP. That was my point. If you want to debate a point passionately, that's fine. Lets just not go after someone about something that has nothing to do with the forum or a doctrinal discussion.
Most of those comments were given in reference to a point debated in a forum. Although I do not agree with the tone of some of them and I am not excusing them, they are very different from your comment against Retro that was simply an attack after an apology. It had nothing to do with a doctrinal debate or the OP. That was my point. If you want to debate a point passionately, that's fine. Lets just not go after someone about something that has nothing to do with the forum or a doctrinal discussion.
Daqdaq said:Matthew 5:29 KJV
29. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 6:23-24 KJV
22. The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
If we pluck our eyes out we will not be able to read your wild posts
But if it keeps us from being cast into hell , maybe we should
It would be like killing two birds with one stone
This is a false premise and has been proven false time and time again. The Kingdom of God does not come with ocular-visual-observational evidence. The Kingdom of God does not come by observation. This kind of "observation" is "visual-ocular evidence" meaning "to be seen with the eyes of the flesh" and is purely physical in nature. Thus Yeshua plainly and clearly states exactly what he means according to the definitions of the words which the authors employed in their respective contexts:Retrobyter said:
Luke 17:20-21 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: [GSN#3907 parateresis]
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Original Strong's Ref. #3907
Romanized parateresis
Pronounced par-at-ay'-ray-sis
from GSN3906; inspection, i.e. ocular evidence:
KJV--obervation.
Yes Yeshua speaks in plural, and yes he speaks to the Pharisees, and yes the Kingdom of God is potentially inside of all men because that is the specific purpose for which the Creator made us, (to be his holy temples). Of course Yeshua speaks to them in plural yet he also speaks to each in his or her own appointed times even though he speaks to them all at the same time. The word employed here ("entos") translated "within" comes from GSN#1722 "en" which most definitely means "IN" like the particle "in" which is used to form the English word "inside".
Luke 17:21 Transliterated Unaccented Bible
21. oude erousin, "Idou hode!" e"{*} Ekei!" Idou gar he basileia tou Theou entos humonestin."^
Original Strong's Ref. #1787
Romanized entos
Pronounced en-tos'
from GSN1722; inside (adverb or noun):
KJV--within.
BDB -- Strong's Greek Definition for #1787
1787 // entov // entos // en-tos' //
from 1722 ; prep
AV - within 2; 2
1) within, inside
1a) within you i.e. in the midst of you
1b) within you i.e. your soul
http://www.apostolic...s/luke_17.shtml
http://www.apostolic...greek&stnm=1787
The modern definition from BDB makes your case more flimsy because the soul is used to describe "entos" being "within" the man.
In addition when you change the meaning of "entos" you alter the implications of "mesos" ("midst") from other passages. It does not matter to whom the Master speaks directly in the passage, (i.e. the Pharisees) because the Gospel accounts are written by apostles and disciples to the entire congregation and that includes the account from Luke irrespective of to whom it is addressed, (i.e. "Theophilus"). Are we to now say that the entire Gospel of Luke is not for us because it is addressed to a priest of the name Theophilus? In addition you are attempting to force the Luke passage to say something that it does not so as to force your own physical paradigm of a literal and physical kingdom of God, ruling with an iron fist, over a global world-wide planetary empire of the fleshly kingdoms of men. The Luke passage clearly disputes what you profess because Yeshua tells them that the kingdom of God does not come with observation and neither shall they say, "See here! or, see there!", "Look here! or, look there!" As stated time and again: "For the kingdom of God is inside you", (GSN#1787 entos-inside). If you desire to prove your point that the kingdom of God is all around us and in our midst then you have an alternative passage which you have either not recognized, neglected, or ignored in making your case. However, it does not read "entos" (inside) but rather "mesos" (midst).
AGAIN:
Luke 17:20-21 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within [GSN#1787 entos] you.
Original Strong's Ref. #1787
Romanized entos
Pronounced en-tos'
from GSN1722; inside (adverb or noun):
KJV--within.
Matthew 18:19-20 KJV
19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst [GSN#3319 mesos] of them.
Original Strong's Ref. #3319
Romanized mesos
Pronounced mes'-os
from GSN3326; middle (as an adjective or [neuter] noun):
KJV--among, X before them, between, + forth, mid[-day, -night], midst, way.
Your argument requires changing the definitions of words to suit your paradigm.
Luke 17:21 KJV
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within [GSN#1787 entos] you.
Matthew 18:20 KJV
20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst [GSN#3319 mesos] of them.
You have essentially lifted the meaning of "mesos" and applied it to "entos" so as to preach a physical global empire.
Temples - Post#89
Temples - Post#128
Christ will come again - Page 4
Desolating Abomination - Post#4-13
Desolating Abomination - Post#51
So….The New Earth and Heaven - Post#6-25
I'm going to say something else you may not agree with, as others probably won't either, because no one likes to admit they might have been duped by what is taught in some pulpits.Rach said:
There also is a doctrine that believes Christ's Kingdom has already manifested but does not believe in Christ's second coming as a literal return back to this earth to take reign. Those are trying to say He is reigning already today too.
That doctrine is designed specifically to serve the wicked, since a truthful look at events going on in today's world reveals evil still exists here on earth, and is in strong process today of persecuting the body of Christ.
These particular ones who believe this think it's their duty from Christ to create a literal kingdom here on earth today, without His literal return to this earth. It is what the ideas of one-world globalism is partly about, because these I speak of are believers on Christ Jesus and not unbelievers. They support the idea of a one world government, and often work with unbelievers who are busy establishing that system today also. These believers on Christ just don't know how they have been played into Satan's hand, yet.
How will these believers on Christ that work with Satan's host for that one-world goal be when our Lord Jesus does finally appear in our near future? That is actually what the closed door is about when our Lord returns, and He says something like, "Get away from Me, I never knew you."
This is why it's so important today to be studying God's Word as written for ourselves, and be careful what kind of ideas we pick up on from the pulpit and from system organizations of men. That's what this final one-world beast kingdom being setup today on earth is about, pruning those who would rather listen to men and their ideas rather than our Lord directly in His Word of Truth.
The teaching that there is no corporeal (bodily) resurrection is a foundational concept of amillennialism. It probably originates with Hymenaeus, whom Paul called a blasphemer. Here is a literal translation of what Paul said he taught:
And their word will eat as gangrene, of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus, who swerve concerning the truth saying the resurrection has come into being currently, and are overthrowing the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:17-18
In other words, Hymenaeus taught that the resurrection was not something future, but a present reality. This is exactly what amillennialists teach; that the new birth is the first resurrection; that those who believe have already been resurrected; that the first resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20 is NOT a bodily resurrection.
And their word will eat as gangrene, of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus, who swerve concerning the truth saying the resurrection has come into being currently, and are overthrowing the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:17-18
In other words, Hymenaeus taught that the resurrection was not something future, but a present reality. This is exactly what amillennialists teach; that the new birth is the first resurrection; that those who believe have already been resurrected; that the first resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20 is NOT a bodily resurrection.
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
The NIV is a "literal translation" of what Paul said he taught? :lol:
I think perhaps you know better but if not then please note the following true literal translations:
2 Timothy 2:18 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
18. hoitines peri ten aletheian estochesan, legontes ten anastasin ede gegonenai, kai anatrepousin tentinon pistin.
2 Timothy 2:18 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
18. who concerning the truth did swerve, saying the rising again to have already been, and do overthrow the faith of some;
The "rising again" is not necessarily the same as the "first rising" and therefore your comparison of all amillennialists to Hymenaeus and Philetus, (and thus labeling all amillennialists as blasphemers) is based in a misunderstanding of the Scripture from a not-so-literal version of the Bible which you claim to be a literal version of the Bible.
What I presented is a literal translation from the Greek. I don't ever use the NIV.daq said:The NIV is a "literal translation" of what Paul said he taught? :lol:
I think perhaps you know better but if not then please note the following true literal translations:
2 Timothy 2:18 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
18. hoitines peri ten aletheian estochesan, legontes ten anastasin ede gegonenai, kai anatrepousin tentinon pistin.
2 Timothy 2:18 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
18. who concerning the truth did swerve, saying the rising again to have already been, and do overthrow the faith of some;
The "rising again" is not necessarily the same as the "first rising" and therefore your comparison of all amillennialists to Hymenaeus and Philetus, (and thus labeling all amillennialists as blasphemers) is based in a misunderstanding of the Scripture from a not-so-literal version of the Bible which you claim to be a literal version of the Bible.
I don't know why you posted such nonsense. The Greek word for resurrection is the same in Revelation 20 and 2 Timothy 2:18.
You are the one posting nonsense because you are outside of the Testimony of Messiah:ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Revelation 20:4 TUA
4. Kai eidon thronous kai ekathisan ep autous kaikrima edothe autois, kai tas psuchas ton pepelekismenon dia ten marturian Iesou kai dia ton logon tou Theou kai hoitines ou prosekunesan to therion oude ten eikona autou kai ouk elabon to charagma epito metopon kai epi ten cheira auton. Kai ezesan kai ebasileusan meta tou Christou chilia ete.
Revelation 20:4 KJV
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived [GSN#2198 zao (ezesan)] and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Original Strong's Ref. #2198
Romanized zao
Pronounced dzah'-o
a primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively):
KJV--life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.
John 5:21 KJV
21. For as the Father raiseth up [GSN#1453 egeiro] the dead, and quickeneth [GSN#2227 zoopoieo] them; even so the Son quickeneth [GSN#2227 zoopoieo] whom he will.
Strong's Ref. #2227
Romanized zoopoieo
Pronounced dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
from the same as GSN2226 and GSN4160; to (re-)vitalize (literally or figuratively):
KJV--make alive, give life, quicken.
Original Strong's Ref. #2226
Romanized zoon
Pronounced dzo'-on
neuter of a derivative of GSN2198; a live thing, i.e. an animal:
KJV--beast.
A "zoon" or "living creature" is a neuter derivative of "zao" which is "to live" and is the same word employed in Revelation 20:4 which states "they lived" (GSN#2198 zao - ezesan). According to the Testimony of Yeshua the Father egeiro-raises up the dead and zoopoieo-quickens them into living creatures; likewise the Son has power to zoopoieo-quicken and make a man alive, into a living creature, though the man was dead in his trespasses and sins. Yet this is only the beginning:
John 5:24-27 KJV
24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, [GSN#2222 zoe] and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life [GSN#2222 zoe].
25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live [GSN#2198 zao].
26. For as the Father hath life [GSN#2222 zoe] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [GSN#2222 zoe] in himself;
27. And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Original Strong's Ref. #2222
Romanized zoe
Pronounced dzo-ay'
from GSN2198; life (literally or figuratively):
KJV--life(-time). Compare GSN5590.
John 5:28-29 KJV
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection [GSN#386 anastasis (anastasin)] of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection [GSN#386 anastasis (anastasin)] of damnation.
Not only must we understand the words and what they mean but we must understand them in their contexts.
Paul speaks in perfect harmony with both Revelation 20:4 and the John 5 passage:
John 5:21-29
21. For as the Father egeiro-raiseth up the dead, and zoopoieo-quickens them; even so the Son zoopoieo-quickens whom he will.
22. For the Father judges no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23. That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honors not the Son honors not the Father which hath sent him.
24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting zoe-life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto zoe-life.
25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall zao-live.
26. For as the Father hath zoe-life in himself; so has he given to the Son to have zoe-life in himself;
27. And has given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the anastasin-rising-again-resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the anastasin-rising-again-resurrection of damnation.
According to the statement of Yeshua "the hour which now is" corresponds exactly to the statement from Revelation 20:4 and the zoopoieo-zoe, quickened-life, of everyone who hears the voice of Messiah and zao-lives. Yet he says marvel not at that because "the hour which is to come" concerns the anastasin-rising-again-resurrection which is not even mentioned in Revelation 20:4 but rather after the "thousand years" at the end of Revelation 20:5. You are taking statements and words and their meanings out of their proper contexts and making your own version of eschatology, which is outside the Testimony of Yeshua, while at the same time using Scripture as a weapon to label your perceived "enemies" to be blasphemers the likes of Hymenaeus and Philetus. The Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of prophecy and especially this prophecy of the book of the Revelation of Yeshua from where that quote derives.
daq said:
Not true, because the subject of John 5:28-29 is about the time of Christ's literal return to BEGIN the "thousand years" of Rev.20.
On the final day of this present world when Christ appears, He brings those who are 'asleep' in Him from Heaven with Him back to this earth, and those of His still alive on earth changed to the spiritual body in order to meet Him and those He brings, this per the 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 Scripture. That is when both... of those type of resurrections will manifest, one for the just and the other one for the unjust or wicked, both to occur at the same time of Christ's second coming.
The subject time of John 5:25 was right after Christ's death on the cross and going to preach The Gospel to the "spirits in prison" of 1 Peter 3:19.
By your getting caught up in scrible word-play, you've missed the essence of that Scripture.
people like a good Jewish fairy tale .. .where Christ kicks butt makes the jews rich and they rule with him on this earth.
a Jesus who is a savior from sin is not what they want .. they want a Obama TYPE OF ..Jesus who gives them LOTS OF NEAT STUFF..
LIKE. ENTITLEMENTS SUCH AS RICHES AND . glory on this earth.. FOR GET ABOUT THAT SAVIOR FROM SIN STUFF WHO WANTS THAT? ""A MILLENIAL SINNERS""..WANT THAT
IF YOU REALLY KNEW SCRIPTURES YOU WOULD SEE HOW EVEN JESUS DECIPLES FELL FOR SUCH JEWISH FAIRY TALES ..
AND HOW Jesus had to heal a solders ear because of t..
A Millenialism is the theology of the cross
JEWISH FAIRY TALES AND OPINIONS IS A OBAMA TYPE OF JESUS WHO SAYS HELL GETS YOU LOTS OF NEAT STUFF ON THIS EARTH A THEOLOGY OF GLORY..
a Jesus who is a savior from sin is not what they want .. they want a Obama TYPE OF ..Jesus who gives them LOTS OF NEAT STUFF..
LIKE. ENTITLEMENTS SUCH AS RICHES AND . glory on this earth.. FOR GET ABOUT THAT SAVIOR FROM SIN STUFF WHO WANTS THAT? ""A MILLENIAL SINNERS""..WANT THAT
IF YOU REALLY KNEW SCRIPTURES YOU WOULD SEE HOW EVEN JESUS DECIPLES FELL FOR SUCH JEWISH FAIRY TALES ..
AND HOW Jesus had to heal a solders ear because of t..
A Millenialism is the theology of the cross
JEWISH FAIRY TALES AND OPINIONS IS A OBAMA TYPE OF JESUS WHO SAYS HELL GETS YOU LOTS OF NEAT STUFF ON THIS EARTH A THEOLOGY OF GLORY..
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, horsecamp.
Jeremiah 31:31-40
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD.
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar —
the LORD Almighty is his name:
36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."
37 This is what the LORD says:
"Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,"
declares the LORD.
38 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this city (Jerusalem) will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished."
NIV
This passage can't be describing past events, because the city (Jerusalem) HAS been uprooted and demolished in 70 A.D. and again in 135 A.D. This isn't "figurative language," my friend! This is literal and descriptive of a time in the future.
And if YOU really knew the Scriptures, you would be CHAGRINED by your own words! They are not "Jewish fairy tales"; they are words of prophecy which Hebrew prophets spoke and wrote down at the command of YHWH Eloheinu, YHWH our God! And, YHWH was not being covert in symbology! He spoke plainly in the Scriptures of a time when Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Messiah or the Christ) SHALL reign over the earth! You not only need to re-read the prophecies of the Tanakh (the O.T., the ONLY BIBLE YESHUA` AND HIS DISCIPLES HAD), but you need to re-read the New Testament passages, such as Romans chapters 9 through 11, Ephesians chapters 1 and 2, and Hebrews chapters 9 through 11! Read them in their entirety and preferably in a single sitting! Read them in a good reference Bible so that you will see just how many O.T. verses were quoted within these passages! And, most importantly, read them for what THE PASSAGES say, not what you think they SHOULD say! Get information FROM the text; don't try to read INTO the text things the Scriptures don't say! You may discover passages such as ...horsecamp said:
Jeremiah 31:31-40
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD.
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar —
the LORD Almighty is his name:
36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."
37 This is what the LORD says:
"Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,"
declares the LORD.
38 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this city (Jerusalem) will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished."
NIV
This passage can't be describing past events, because the city (Jerusalem) HAS been uprooted and demolished in 70 A.D. and again in 135 A.D. This isn't "figurative language," my friend! This is literal and descriptive of a time in the future.
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