Tithing

Axehead said:

Ok, I'll try to keep it a little bit shorter for you, Stan. But, you might have to get used to long posts because a lot of people write long ones, here.

In case you did not realize it, Jesus was still living under the OT covenant. That is why He fulfilled the Law. The New Covenant was ratified and sealed with His blood, so of course he will not speak evil of the tithe in this ONE verse, or the Sabbath, or circumcision, etc, etc.


2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

The New Testament Believer operates by grace and walks in the Spirit, Stan. God does not own 10% He owns 100% and we walk with Him seeking to bring our will into harmony with His will. As such, the New Testament Christian is freed from a "temple tax" or payment system and as he purposes in his heart (that means, as he decides) he/she will give.

Old Testament - Payment System - Law
New Testament - Giving System - Love


Did you know that there were 3 kinds of tithes? Did you know that there is no command whatsoever in the New Testament about tithing?

There were three sorts of tithes (bold are my words) to be paid from the people (besides those from the Levites to the priests); (1) To the Levites, for their maintenance, Num 18:21,24; (2) For the Lord's feasts and sacrifices, to be eaten in the place which the Lord should choose to put his name there Deut. 14:22-24; (3) Besides these two, there was to be, every third year, a tithe for the poor, to be eaten in their own dwellings. Deut. 14:28,29.

Do these things exist to, today? Do we have "Levites" maintaining the Temple sacrifice, or the Lord's feasts and sacrifices or do we only give to the poor every third year?

In the New Testament, neither Jesus nor the Apostles have commanded anything in this affair of tithes.

I am not against GIVING. I am against telling people that they must PAY.

There is a huge difference between the two. The NT teaches giving not paying.

To teach the Law will only result in believers being put in bondage. And the bondage of legalism will be harmful to the spiritual well being of any believer. This is true in the area of giving as well as any other area.

Tithing was an important part of the Old Testament Law. But it has no place in New Testament Grace.

Your argument is weak and does not line up with Scriptures. I thought you were all about context. You cannot build a doctrine on Jesus mentioning tithing. If you believe this, I am curious what other laws you think the New Testament Christian is still supposed to observe?

Religion propagates and perpetuates OT laws that are most advantageous to it and binds heavy burdens on people. I am glad that the Lord does no such thing.

Axehead

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Like I said Axehead, I tend to ignore long onerous one...no offence. I'll just not read them but since you asked and I responded, I will address your concerns.

FYI, I hear this a lot, that Jesus was under the OC. He wasn't, the Jews were until He died. Jesus WAS the NC and in many situations, He spoke of what the OC was supposed to say but teachings had polluted it. Fulfill meant He was to bring it into the NT in a way that would be written on men's hearts. The principle has been maintained but some will always rebel against anything established in the OT under the OC. As I pointed our before, Abraham tithed out of his understanding and relationship with God, NOT because it was a Mosaic or Levitical written law. He recognized WHO Melchizedek actually was.
Proper Biblical stewardship did NOT stop under the NC. We are just as responsible to honour God as they were under the OT/OC.
I think Romans 11:17-24 will give you a clearer perspective.

Hi Axehead,

Quite a few church organisations indicate to their members that they are expected to tithe to their home church. Sometimes this is because the denomination is requiring a proportion of the congregation's giving/tithing. This doesn't mean the believers cannot give more elsewhere, but the baseline is considered a tenth of their income. Personally, I don't add up what I give, to make sure it is a tenth of what I've received. That lays me open to the possibility I don't even give a tenth. Ought I to be worried about that?

i find it very odd that the whole New Testament does not contain any command for the titth??? yet some who have buildings to build, walls to paint TV equipment to buy etc.. find a way to teach it as new testament truth??? CLEARLY! it is NOT a doctrine found in New Testament!! the best aurgument for its being presented is in the faith of Abraham and that is the example by which i give.

dragonfly said:

Hi Axehead,

Quite a few church organisations indicate to their members that they are expected to tithe to their home church. Sometimes this is because the denomination is requiring a proportion of the congregation's giving/tithing. This doesn't mean the believers cannot give more elsewhere, but the baseline is considered a tenth of their income. Personally, I don't add up what I give, to make sure it is a tenth of what I've received. That lays me open to the possibility I don't even give a tenth. Ought I to be worried about that?

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Hi dragonfly,

If you don't have enough mammon, just drop a couple of chickens in the offering plate. I wonder if they would take them?

Deut 14:24-25 shows that TITHES have nothing to do with MONEY.

The OFFERINGS of Malachi are the sacrifices which the NT declares have ended.



Axehead

brother dave said:

i find it very odd that the whole New Testament does not contain any command for the titth??? yet some who have buildings to build, walls to paint TV equipment to buy etc.. find a way to teach it as new testament truth??? CLEARLY! it is NOT a doctrine found in New Testament!! the best aurgument for its being presented is in the faith of Abraham and that is the example by which i give.

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Then maybe you should read my post #59.

brother dave said:

i find it very odd that the whole New Testament does not contain any command for the titth??? yet some who have buildings to build, walls to paint TV equipment to buy etc.. find a way to teach it as new testament truth??? CLEARLY! it is NOT a doctrine found in New Testament!! the best aurgument for its being presented is in the faith of Abraham and that is the example by which i give.

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Hi Brother Dave,

I'm trying to keep my posts shorter for Stan, but I am going to fail, I think. However, this post will put the false teaching about Abraham and the tithe to rest. According to Stan my posts are not only "long" but also "onerous". I am beginning to understand why they are onerous to him and this will probably be the most onerous. Hmmm, what does it mean when Truth is onerous?

Ok, Dave, here goes. Let's look at Abraham, since you brought him up.

1. When Abraham gave a tenth to Melchizedek, king of Salem and "a priest of God Most High" (Genesis 14:17-20)

and Jacob (while we are at it).

2. When Jacob promised to give a tenth to God when he returned in safety to his father's house.

Both of these instances of "tithing" were ONE TIME EVENTS. There is no indication at all that these men practiced "tithing" on any consistent basis, whatsoever. And notice that Abraham gave a tithe from his spoils not from his increase.


Hebrews 7:4 confirms that it was a tenth of the spoils of the battle.


Don't you love it how "preachers" will use the Word for their own gain?

There are no commands from God for these men to give a tenth of what they had. There were commands from God to practice circumcision and to build altars, but no command was ever given about tithing until the institution of the Law.

Therefore you cannot make a logical or scriptural argument that Tithing was practiced before the Law, was a part of the Law and therefore should be practiced after the Law. (see post #49).

And why do we need rules and regulations and laws written in "stone", when we are born from above into the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus where we walk by the Spirit (the Spirit leads us) and not the flesh or man-made doctrines?

I can't wait until they want to talk about Malachi.


All the best,
Axehead

Hi Axehead,

Thanks for your reply.

I liked the verses from Deuteronomy, which pretty much sum up why I don't tally up my freewill offering to make sure it's over tenth of whatever I'm giving at the time.

Stan said:

Like I said Axehead, I tend to ignore long onerous one...no offence. I'll just not read them but since you asked and I responded, I will address your concerns.

FYI, I hear this a lot, that Jesus was under the OC. He wasn't, the Jews were until He died. Jesus WAS the NC and in many situations, He spoke of what the OC was supposed to say but teachings had polluted it. Fulfill meant He was to bring it into the NT in a way that would be written on men's hearts. The principle has been maintained but some will always rebel against anything established in the OT under the OC. As I pointed our before, Abraham tithed out of his understanding and relationship with God, NOT because it was a Mosaic or Levitical written law. He recognized WHO Melchizedek actually was.
Proper Biblical stewardship did NOT stop under the NC. We are just as responsible to honour God as they were under the OT/OC.
I think Romans 11:17-24 will give you a clearer perspective.

[sup]17 [/sup]If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, [sup]18 [/sup]do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. [sup]19 [/sup]You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” [sup]20 [/sup]Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. [sup]21 [/sup]For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.​

[sup]22 [/sup]Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. [sup]23 [/sup]And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. [sup]24 [/sup]After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!​

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Hi Stan,

I read post #59. It just demonstrates that you missed my point about Ananias and Sapphira. Did you read post #49?

Regarding Abraham and the tithe?

The tithe that Abraham made was only a one time event as far as the Scriptures divulge. What else do they divulge about Abraham?

1. God's original promise to Abraham was based on nothing except faith. It had nothing to do with tithing.
   
2. God's covenant with Abraham, which he made later to help Abraham believe, had nothing to do with tithing.
   
3. There is no scriptural basis to say that God instructed Abraham to give a tenth of the spoils to Melchizedek.
   
4. There is no scriptural basis to say that God ever instructed Abraham to give any tithe.
   
5. Abraham was not made rich by giving a tithe to Melchizedek. He was already exceedingly rich before he gave it. Genesis 13 tells us that Abraham was rich in cattle, in silver and in gold. His substance was so great that the land could not bear him and Lot together. He had at least 318 male servants born in his house. The total number of persons in his company would have been much greater counting the wives and children of the servants plus others who would have stayed behind to guard his possessions.
   
6. This is the one and only mention of Abraham giving a tithe to anyone.
   
7. There is no scriptural basis to teach that Abraham ever gave another tithe in his entire life.
   
8. The tithe was on the spoils of the battle.
   
9. Abraham didn't give a tithe of his personal possessions or the increase of his flocks and herds.
   
10. Abraham didn't give a tithe of something that he was going to keep a portion of, so it cost him nothing.
    
11. Neither tithes nor offerings were a condition for the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham.
    
12. God made Abraham rich in fulfillment of his promise alone, without any kind of tithing or giving.
    
13. There is no scriptural basis to say that Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek is God's pattern for Christians in the New Covenant.
    
14. God's command to Abraham was to leave his country and go to the land that God would show him.
    
15. God promised that he would make Abraham a great nation, he would bless him, he would make his name great, Abraham would be a blessing, he would bless them that bless Abraham, he would curse them that curse Abraham, and in Abraham all families of the earth would be blessed.
    
16. Abraham believed what God said and acted on it. God considered him righteous, fulfilled his promise, and made him rich on the basis of that faith alone. Tithing had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Axehead, the problem is you are looking for a written code that you will not find, except as expressed in the Mosaic Laws as they were established. You assume Abraham paid tithe without knowing what the principle was. Abraham's allegiance to God and to the High Priest Melchizedek(Jesus) was clear. He didn't need it to be written down. Moses eventually wrote it down 500 years later, AFTER the principle of tithing to God was well established.
The principle of good stewardship is learned through an allegiance to God.

Stan said:

Axehead, the problem is you are looking for a written code that you will not find, except as expressed in the Mosaic Laws as they were established. You assume Abraham paid tithe without knowing what the principle was. Abraham's allegiance to God and to the High Priest Melchizedek(Jesus) was clear. He didn't need it to be written down. Moses eventually wrote it down 500 years later, AFTER the principle of tithing to God was well established.
The principle of good stewardship is learned through an allegiance to God.

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Stan, that answer doesn't fly. Scripture interprets scripture and there is nothing to back up such blatant Phantom Hermeneutics. At the very minimum, your interpretation seems very "gnostic" to me.

Actually, we can only assume they were introduced in the Mosaic laws. There is no way that you or anyone can say they were well established 500 years previous. That is eisegisis, Stan. But, don't you think such an important and widely pervasive doctrine such as the Tithe in the New Testament would at least be seen in the New Testament Church and that Jesus and the Apostles would have confirmed it. Should not it have been talked about at the Jerusalem conference?

Tell me Stan, is obeying the outward laws of Circumcision still in effect since Abraham and Moses had such wonderful allegiance to God? I can't find a written "code" for it as you put it, but I guess that really doesn't matter, does it?

"Moses eventually wrote it down 500 years later, AFTER the principle of tithing to God was well established."
How do you know the principle of tithing to God was well established?

That is a most interesting way to interpret the Bible. So, "adding to Scripture" does not apply in this instance, eh?

I think Stan, that you are assuming much more than I am. Everything I have present is plainly spoken of in the Scriptures.

Axehead

Axehead said:

Stan, that answer doesn't fly. Scripture interprets scripture and there is nothing to back up such blatant Phantom Hermeneutics. At the very minimum, your interpretation seems very "gnostic" to me.

Actually, we can only assume they were introduced in the Mosaic laws. There is no way that you or anyone can say they were well established 500 years previous. That is eisegisis, Stan. But, don't you think such an important and widely pervasive doctrine such as the Tithe in the New Testament would at least be seen in the New Testament Church and that Jesus and the Apostles would have confirmed it. Should not it have been talked about at the Jerusalem conference?

Tell me Stan, is obeying the outward laws of Circumcision still in effect since Abraham and Moses had such wonderful allegiance to God? I can't find a written "code" for it as you put it, but I guess that really doesn't matter, does it?

"Moses eventually wrote it down 500 years later, AFTER the principle of tithing to God was well established."
How do you know the principle of tithing to God was well established?

That is a most interesting way to interpret the Bible. So, "adding to Scripture" does not apply in this instance, eh?

I think Stan, that you are assuming much more than I am. Everything I have present is plainly spoken of in the Scriptures.

Axehead

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It doesn't need to FLY Axe...it just needs to be true, which it is. A valid response would be, "no this is what scripture says etc..."
Your dismissiveness carries no weight.

Tithing, as I have already shown, started with Abram in Gen 14:20, giving a tenth to Melchizedek, and is continually mentioned from there. The first mention of 'tithe' is in Lev 27:30 (written Mosaic Law). You will note if you will, that a tenth was common in all kinds of written laws with the Jews.

1. Leviticus 5:11
   “‘If, however, they cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, they are to bring as an offering for their sin a tenth of an ephah of the finest flour for a sin offering. They must not put olive oil or incense on it, because it is a sin offering.
   Leviticus 5:10-12 (in Context) Leviticus 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
2. Leviticus 6:20
   “This is the offering Aaron and his sons are to bring to the LORD on the day he is anointed: a tenth of an ephah of the finest flour as a regular grain offering, half of it in the morning and half in the evening.
   Leviticus 6:19-21 (in Context) Leviticus 6 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
3. Leviticus 14:10
   “On the eighth day they must bring two male lambs and one ewe lamb a year old, each without defect, along with three-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with olive oil for a grain offering, and one log of oil.
   Leviticus 14:9-11 (in Context) Leviticus 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
4. Leviticus 14:21
   “If, however, they are poor and cannot afford these, they must take one male lamb as a guilt offering to be waved to make atonement for them, together with a tenth of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with olive oil for a grain offering, a log of oil,
   Leviticus 14:20-22 (in Context) Leviticus 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

There are many others...do your own word search. Then there are the ones using 'tithe'.

1. Leviticus 27:30
   “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD.
   Leviticus 27:29-31 (in Context) Leviticus 27 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
2. Leviticus 27:31
   Whoever would redeem any of their tithe must add a fifth of the value to it.
   Leviticus 27:30-32 (in Context) Leviticus 27 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
3. Leviticus 27:32
   Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the LORD.
   Leviticus 27:31-33 (in Context) Leviticus 27 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
4. Numbers 18:21
   “I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the tent of meeting.
   Numbers 18:20-22 (in Context) Numbers 18 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
5. Numbers 18:24
   Instead, I give to the Levites as their inheritance the tithes that the Israelites present as an offering to the LORD. That is why I said concerning them: ‘They will have no inheritance among the Israelites.’”
   Numbers 18:23-25 (in Context) Numbers 18 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
6. Numbers 18:26
   “Speak to the Levites and say to them: ‘When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the LORD’s offering.
   Numbers 18:25-27 (in Context) Numbers 18 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
7. Numbers 18:28
   In this way you also will present an offering to the LORD from all the tithes you receive from the Israelites. From these tithes you must give the LORD’s portion to Aaron the priest.
   Numbers 18:27-29 (in Context) Numbers 18 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
8. Deuteronomy 12:6
   there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks.
   Deuteronomy 12:5-7 (in Context) Deuteronomy 12 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
9. Deuteronomy 12:11
   Then to the place the LORD your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name—there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, and all the choice possessions you have vowed to the LORD.
   Deuteronomy 12:10-12 (in Context) Deuteronomy 12 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
10. Deuteronomy 12:17
    You must not eat in your own towns the tithe of your grain and new wine and olive oil, or the firstborn of your herds and flocks, or whatever you have vowed to give, or your freewill offerings or special gifts.
    Deuteronomy 12:16-18 (in Context) Deuteronomy 12 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

These are all to the point and proper EXEGESIS. I will NOT address your strawman.

Stan,

I am not looking for proof of the Tithe in the Old Covenant. I know it was part of the Mosaic law. I am contesting that you cannot show me in the New Testament that the Mosaic Tithe is still to be followed. Where do the Scriptures teach that the Tithe is an Eternal Law?

If You Don't Tithe You Are a God-Robber









The church is like it is today because of what it has been taught. It has not been taught the strong truth about the glorious relationship we have with God. It's time that Christians should be given the meat of God's word. (Heb. 5:12–14) It's time for them to be treated like sons who are capable of growing up into full stature in Christ.

Our standard today is not 10 percent, it is Christ himself who gave everything. Paul is an example for us:





God no longer wants His children to pay under compulsion, but to give cheerfully. It is impossible for the requirement of paying the tithe to remain if God says that our giving is not under compulsion. If you owe it, you are under compulsion to pay it. The very act of paying tithes creates an act of "necessity" and 2 Cor 9:7, says "not grudgingly, or of necessity".

You cannot have it both ways.

You cannot say out of one side of your mouth that you are not to act out of necessity, or under compulsion -- and then out of the other side of your mouth say that God requires you to pay tithes.

For those that know and understand the Spirit of Christ, this concept is so foreign to a child of the Spirit where all that he/she has belongs to the Lord, already.

Stan said:

Correctly is doing what God lays on your heart to do. 10% is our starting point, so for most people, that would be 10% of their gross paycheck. It's something God has to make real to you, just as He does to others, and like He did to Abraham.

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Wouldn't it to have been easier to simply state your not able?

Axehead said:

Stan,

I am not looking for proof of the Tithe in the Old Covenant. I know it was part of the Mosaic law. I am contesting that you cannot show me in the New Testament that the Mosaic Tithe is still to be followed. Where do the Scriptures teach that the Tithe is an Eternal Law?

If You Don't Tithe You Are a God-Robber

Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. (Mal. 3:8)​

Under the Old Covenant the tithe was the Lord's and the children of Israel were robbing God when they didn't give it to him. We have a completely different relationship to God. The New Covenant is actually between God the Father and Jesus. Therefore, it is perfect and eternal because it does not depend on a fallible human who might break it. We are included in the New Covenant by our spiritual union with Jesus and we share his covenant relationship with the Father.​

The Father has already given everything there is to the Son. Jesus Christ is the rightful Lord and owner of all things. By virtue of being in Christ and being his body we are joint owners of all things with him.​

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. (Rom. 4:13)​

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16)​

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3:29)​

Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. (1 Cor. 3:21–23)​

We have no possessions that are ours separately from Jesus Christ. Everything belongs to him and us together, so there is no such thing as robbing God by not tithing. The commitment in this covenant is 100 percent from both parties. The issue is not tithing; it's following the Holy Spirit's leading at all times.​

Our relationship to God as a born-again son is superior to anything previous. We are not our own, we have been bought with a price, the blood of Jesus. God is not his own either because he has committed himself to us, to be a Father and total savior to us. We no longer live on the level of a tither. We live in the high calling of absolute abandonment to God and his purposes on earth. That is the new standard of 100 percent commitment in the New Covenant.​

So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:33)​

…they loved not their lives unto the death. (Rev. 12:11b)​

The church is like it is today because of what it has been taught. It has not been taught the strong truth about the glorious relationship we have with God. It's time that Christians should be given the meat of God's word. (Heb. 5:12–14) It's time for them to be treated like sons who are capable of growing up into full stature in Christ.

Our standard today is not 10 percent, it is Christ himself who gave everything. Paul is an example for us:

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (Phil. 3:7–8).​

2Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.​

God no longer wants His children to pay under compulsion, but to give cheerfully. It is impossible for the requirement of paying the tithe to remain if God says that our giving is not under compulsion. If you owe it, you are under compulsion to pay it. The very act of paying tithes creates an act of "necessity" and 2 Cor 9:7, says "not grudgingly, or of necessity".

You cannot have it both ways.

You cannot say out of one side of your mouth that you are not to act out of necessity, or under compulsion -- and then out of the other side of your mouth say that God requires you to pay tithes.

For those that know and understand the Spirit of Christ, this concept is so foreign to a child of the Spirit where all that he/she has belongs to the Lord, already.

Axehead​

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From the perspective that they practised it long before it was written law, at least 500 years if you check out the time-line, which is easily available online. I showed you when scripture established the principle in Genesis and you deny it. I'm Sorry I can't MAKE you see it if you refuse to. Making tithe a minimum is just that. You need to read Hebrews 6 and 7 in it's entirety to see God's will and way. Hebrews 6 starts with; Therefore let us leave standing the elementary teaching about Christ and let us move on to maturity. Verse 20 shows us again who Melchizedek is, and going into Heb 7, we see this tithe explained and justified. It was not something that the writer had to explain a lot, as he was writing to Hebrews, who understood the principle for the most part. Hebrews enforces and continues the practise of tithing to Melchizedek, which in today's setting, is the church. The law of sowing and reaping still exists, as does the law of gravity. The law/principle of tithing still exists. You just need to have a complete allegiance to Jesus, to get it.
Yes God loves a cheerful giver. Yes God want a faithful steward. As all things in Christ, there are minimums, like how we love, how we look at the commandments, how we excercise our freedoms. The message/principle of tithing is right in front of you, if you will just open your eyes. Nothing we do as a Christian, should be done grudgingly, but everything we do is out of necessity, as we honour God. It's NOT a matter of compliance, as much as it is a matter of honour and allegiance.
Galatians 5:13
For you, brothers, were called to freedom. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
James 2:12
So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law that brings freedom.
1 Peter 2:16
Live as free people, not as those using freedom as a cover-up for evil, but as servants of God.

Hi Stan,

I took your advice and looked into Hebrews 6 and 7.

Hebrews 7:9 - 24 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God. And inasmuch as not without an oath [he was made priest]: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec by so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: but this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.


You may recall in Exodus 13, the Lord began to lay claim to the firstborn of man and beast, and later chose Levi to stand for the firstborn in every family in Israel. Numbers 3:12 Gradually it transpired that Levi was not going to have his own portion in 'the land' - Deuteronomy 18:2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD [is] their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.

There is, therefore, a parallel between Jesus being the only begotten, firstborn Son of God, Exodus 4:22, and our position in Him as co-heirs and co-inheritors of the double portion due to firstborn sons - which is, of course, a spiritual inheritance. Luke 15:31

I hear you, that a tenth is the starting point, but I do believe it's a snare to think in these terms in the New Covenant era. Freely you have received, freely give. Spurgeon called it 'lending' to God. Mark 12:44

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


Those are my thoughts.

dragonfly said:

Hi Stan,

I took your advice and looked into Hebrews 6 and 7.

Hebrews 7:9 - 24 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God. And inasmuch as not without an oath [he was made priest]: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec by so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: but this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.


You may recall in Exodus 13, the Lord began to lay claim to the firstborn of man and beast, and later chose Levi to stand for the firstborn in every family in Israel. Numbers 3:12 Gradually it transpired that Levi was not going to have his own portion in 'the land' - Deuteronomy 18:2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD [is] their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.

There is, therefore, a parallel between Jesus being the only begotten, firstborn Son of God, Exodus 4:22, and our position in Him as co-heirs and co-inheritors of the double portion due to firstborn sons - which is, of course, a spiritual inheritance. Luke 15:31

I hear you, that a tenth is the starting point, but I do believe it's a snare to think in these terms in the New Covenant era. Freely you have received, freely give. Spurgeon called it 'lending' to God. Mark 12:44

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


Those are my thoughts.

Click to expand...

Yes it definitely can be a snare and it can become legalistic. Mormons make it very legalistic to the point that if you don't tithe, you can't be a member there. I don't agree with what Spurgeon said on this subject. Stewardship is recognizing that EVERYTHING we have and obtain is due to God's provision and grace in our lives. AS faithful stewards, we honour God by paying Him BACK for His provisions. You can't really have a principle unless it has some basic guidelines.

dragonfly said:

Hi Axehead,

Thanks for your reply.

I liked the verses from Deuteronomy, which pretty much sum up why I don't tally up my freewill offering to make sure it's over tenth of whatever I'm giving at the time.

Click to expand...

Hi Dragonfly,

Thank you for checking out those scriptures.

The Old Testament requirement of tithing is definitely a "paying" situation, not a "giving" one. Even the "Offerings" were required. They were not "offerings" in the sense of a spontaneous desire and decision to impart some of your assets to someone else. The OT Offerings were specific requirements of the people that had to be fulfilled according to very specific, detailed rituals carried out by the Levitical Priesthood in the context of Temple worship.

Everyone agrees that you pay something that you owe. It is a responsibility and a requirement. It is not a gift. On the other hand, it is equally true that a gift is not a requirement. A gift is something that you give that you didn't have to give. It is not given because you must. It is not given out of necessity. It is not given under compulsion. Otherwise, it would not be a gift. It would be a payment.

These passages of scripture are a perfect illustration of the fact that the new covenant is a covenant of grace, not a covenant of law. The Apostle Paul, in writing this passage, reveals that giving is a work of God's grace in a person's heart. And it is clear that what God is wanting is for His people to give of their own accord. He does not want them to give in obedience to a command. That would be LAW! He wants His people to allow His grace to work in their hearts, and give freely.

Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, drives a nail in the coffin of tithing. It is buried forever along with circumcision and every other aspect of Old Testament Law.


2Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

God no longer wants His children to pay under compulsion, but to give cheerfully. It is impossible for the requirement of paying the tithe to remain if God says that our giving is not under compulsion. If you owe it, you are under compulsion to pay it.

The very act of paying tithes creates an act of "necessity" and 2 Cor 9:7, says "not grudgingly, or of necessity. (The opposite of what Stan is saying).

Look at the "mixture" in this statement from Stan.

[quote]From Stan:
Yes God loves a cheerful giver. Yes God want a faithful steward. As all things in Christ, there are minimums, like how we love, how we look at the commandments, how we excercise our freedoms. The message/principle of tithing is right in front of you, if you will just open your eyes. Nothing we do as a Christian, should be done grudgingly, but everything we do is out of necessity, as we honour God. It's NOT a matter of compliance, as much as it is a matter of honour and allegiance.[/quote]

2 Cor 9:7 says not out of necessity. "nor of necessity".

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say out of one side of your mouth that you are not to act out of necessity, or under compulsion -- and then out of the other side of your mouth say that God requires you to pay tithes.

Paul does "urge" the church several times to be "liberal" (generous) in their giving. But generosity is a foreign concept to the law of tithing. A tithe is 10 percent, no more and no less. You cannot be generous and be under the law of tithes, (whether one of the three OT laws of tithing or all 3 of them). But, today's preachers say that is where "offerings" come in. But that is not right. Not in a Biblical sense, anyway. The offerings of the Bible in the OT consisted of detailed rituals that were just as much a requirement as was tithing.

God wants us to forget the requirements of the Law. He wants us to live in response to the working of His grace in our hearts.

"But shouldn't tithing be the starting place? Shouldn't it be the minimum?"

That would be like saying, "Shouldn't circumcision be the starting place?" "Shouldn't circumcision be the minimum?"

I think if this were true, the New Testament would have stated it, somewhere, just once.

The requirement of tithing has kept God's people in slavery to the Law and has kept them from growing in God's grace.

Stan,

Do you also believe that the Sabbath was established for man before Moses? And that we should "keep the Sabbath" once a week? What about circumcision? Physical circumcision. Are we still supposed to keep that principle (law).

Axehead

Axehead said:

Hi Dragonfly,

Thank you for checking out those scriptures.

The Old Testament requirement of tithing is definitely a "paying" situation, not a "giving" one. Even the "Offerings" were required. They were not "offerings" in the sense of a spontaneous desire and decision to impart some of your assets to someone else. The OT Offerings were specific requirements of the people that had to be fulfilled according to very specific, detailed rituals carried out by the Levitical Priesthood in the context of Temple worship.

Everyone agrees that you pay something that you owe. It is a responsibility and a requirement. It is not a gift. On the other hand, it is equally true that a gift is not a requirement. A gift is something that you give that you didn't have to give. It is not given because you must. It is not given out of necessity. It is not given under compulsion. Otherwise, it would not be a gift. It would be a payment.

These passages of scripture are a perfect illustration of the fact that the new covenant is a covenant of grace, not a covenant of law. The Apostle Paul, in writing this passage, reveals that giving is a work of God's grace in a person's heart. And it is clear that what God is wanting is for His people to give of their own accord. He does not want them to give in obedience to a command. That would be LAW! He wants His people to allow His grace to work in their hearts, and give freely.

Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, drives a nail in the coffin of tithing. It is buried forever along with circumcision and every other aspect of Old Testament Law.


2Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

God no longer wants His children to pay under compulsion, but to give cheerfully. It is impossible for the requirement of paying the tithe to remain if God says that our giving is not under compulsion. If you owe it, you are under compulsion to pay it.

The very act of paying tithes creates an act of "necessity" and 2 Cor 9:7, says "not grudgingly, or of necessity. (The opposite of what Stan is saying).

Look at the "mixture" in this statement from Stan.

[/font]

2 Cor 9:7 says not out of necessity. "nor of necessity".

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say out of one side of your mouth that you are not to act out of necessity, or under compulsion -- and then out of the other side of your mouth say that God requires you to pay tithes.

Paul does "urge" the church several times to be "liberal" (generous) in their giving. But generosity is a foreign concept to the law of tithing. A tithe is 10 percent, no more and no less. You cannot be generous and be under the law of tithes, (whether one of the three OT laws of tithing or all 3 of them). But, today's preachers say that is where "offerings" come in. But that is not right. Not in a Biblical sense, anyway. The offerings of the Bible in the OT consisted of detailed rituals that were just as much a requirement as was tithing.

God wants us to forget the requirements of the Law. He wants us to live in response to the working of His grace in our hearts.

"But shouldn't tithing be the starting place? Shouldn't it be the minimum?"

That would be like saying, "Shouldn't circumcision be the starting place?" "Shouldn't circumcision be the minimum?"

I think if this were true, the New Testament would have stated it, somewhere, just once.

The requirement of tithing has kept God's people in slavery to the Law and has kept them from growing in God's grace.

Stan,

Do you also believe that the Sabbath was established for man before Moses? And that we should "keep the Sabbath" once a week? What about circumcision? Physical circumcision. Are we still supposed to keep that principle (law).

Axehead

Click to expand...

Well the word used in the NIV is 'compulsion' or as MOUNCE puts it, 'constraint'. Paul also says here that "each one of us MUST give". Sounds like a requirement to me, if we use your logic. Let's keep it in context Axe or else you will have to say the rest of that chapter supports the 'prosperity' gospel. Do you?
Your strawmen aside, if you read the first five verses of this chapter using your logic, then Paul contradicts himself from v1 to v5.

[sup]1 [/sup]Now concerning the service to the saints, there is no necessity for me to write to you, [sup]2 [/sup]for I know your readiness to help, about which I keep boasting to the Macedonians, saying that Achaia has been ready since last year, and your zeal has stirred up most of them. [sup]3 [/sup]But I am sending these brothers so that what we say in praise of you may not be an empty boast in this instance, that you may be ready just as I said you would be. [sup]4 [/sup]Lest perhaps if some Macedonians should come with me and not find you ready, we—to say nothing of you—would be humiliated by this confidence. [sup]5 [/sup]Therefore I considered it necessary to urge the brothers to go to you in advance and to arrange beforehand the generous contribution you had previously promised, so that it would be ready as a generous gift and not as something you had to do.

Of course he doesn't, but using your reasoning, he does. So what is it. Does he or doesn't he?

Bottom line is God wants us to understand His financial system and submit to it willingly and cheerfully. No matter what you want to call it, it has guidelines.

Hi Axehead,

Can I challenge this, which you said?

Even the "Offerings" were required. They were not "offerings" in the sense of a spontaneous desire and decision to impart some of your assets to someone else. The OT Offerings were specific requirements of the people that had to be fulfilled according to very specific, detailed rituals carried out by the Levitical Priesthood in the context of Temple worship.

Click to expand...

Anytime I've read about the 'freewill' offerings, they have seemed to be exactly that. There was no compulsion for people to give anything, but, usually they wanted to, because their hearts were towards the Lord.

It was written that if a person was bringing an animal as a freewill offering, it had to be perfect, but that's all. And we know there were other times the Lord directed the keeping of spoils of war either to be kept, or destroyed. This would be an indicator also, of what a person may or may not offer to the Lord of his or her own freewill.

It looks to me that all the required giving for sin and other sacrifices stipulated in the Law were ended for sure, but, freewill offerings are A okay under the New Covenant - although obviously presented to the Lord in many varieties of way, since the physical Tabernacle and Temple no longer exist in that religious format. Now, we are closer to the real thing.

dragonfly said:

Hi Axehead,

Can I challenge this, which you said?



Anytime I've read about the 'freewill' offerings, they have seemed to be exactly that. There was no compulsion for people to give anything, but, usually they wanted to, because their hearts were towards the Lord.

It was written that if a person was bringing an animal as a freewill offering, it had to be perfect, but that's all. And we know there were other times the Lord directed the keeping of spoils of war either to be kept, or destroyed. This would be an indicator also, of what a person may or may not offer to the Lord of his or her own freewill.

It looks to me that all the required giving for sin and other sacrifices stipulated in the Law were ended for sure, but, freewill offerings are A okay under the New Covenant - although obviously presented to the Lord in many varieties of way, since the physical Tabernacle and Temple no longer exist in that religious format. Now, we are closer to the real thing.

Click to expand...

Hi there dragonfly,

During the Law there was a difference between freewill offerings and those that were required. The tithe, which was required, was not really a gift. It was a tax. Freewill gifts were voluntary expressions of love for God that came from the heart.

In Exodus we have the account of a freewill offering that was received for the purpose of constructing the tabernacle and all its furnishings. It was completely voluntary.


That was the grace of God in operation. It was a preview of the age that we are now living in and how much better it is. Grace always outperforms law, every time, every way. The focus of the church on tithing is counterproductive. Neither the threats nor the promises that go with the message of tithing can motivate people to give as much as love in a heart that is overwhelmed by grace.

The OT Law of Tithing today, has actually robbed the Church of abundance and joy.

Axehead