When will the "sudden destruction" from which "they will not escape" referenced in 1 Thess 5:2-3 occur and what is the scope of it?

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David in NJ

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And your point is?


And what would that be? Why are you avoiding answering my simple question? Do you or do you not believe that John 5:28-29 is talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead?

Well, there must be a bodily resurrection for Jesus rose from the dead with the body that He was nailed to the Cross.

John 20:24-27
Now Thomas called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he replied, “Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe.”
Eight days later, His disciples were once again inside with the doors locked, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.”

Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side.
Stop doubting and believe.”
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Well, there must be a bodily resurrection for Jesus rose from the dead with the body that He was nailed to the Cross.

John 20:24-27
Now Thomas called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he replied, “Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe.”
Eight days later, His disciples were once again inside with the doors locked, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.”

Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side.
Stop doubting and believe.”
Again, you have chosen not to give a straightforward answer to a straightforward question. Why is that? Do you or do you not believe that John 5:28-29 is about the bodily resurrection of the dead? Yes or no, please.
 

Timtofly

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You think the 42 months occurs after His second coming. Unbelievable. You can't be taken seriously.


LOL. Such nonsense. It's not even worth spending any time refuting this since you're likely the only one in the world who believes this.
Once again mocking Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. These chapters clearly state the angels are coming to earth. And not after every one is dead. They are coming to harvest those alive, not those dead.
Yes those 42 months are prior to Armageddon. Armageddon is not the Second Coming. No angels mentioned, and no one is left alive on earth at that point to harvest.

Armageddon is a planned out event at a specific time. It is not the sudden thief in the night moment of the Second Coming.
 

David in NJ

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Again, you have chosen not to give a straightforward answer to a straightforward question. Why is that? Do you or do you not believe that John 5:28-29 is about the bodily resurrection of the dead? Yes or no, please.
Did you ever read chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians?
 

David in NJ

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Yes, I have. Many times. Why do you ask? Is there some reason why you are avoiding answering a simple question?
Posting scripture that answers the question directly and irrefutably is Rock Solid.

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Posting scripture that answers the question directly and irrefutably is Rock Solid.
LOL. You are incapable of just answering yes or no? That is too much to ask of you?

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.
So, this is clearly talking about bodily resurrections from the dead, so I guess that means your answer to my question about John 5:28-29 is that it is indeed talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead? If so, how many hours/times did Jesus say are coming when all of the dead will be resurrected? Two? Or one?
 

David in NJ

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LOL. You are incapable of just answering yes or no? That is too much to ask of you?


So, this is clearly talking about bodily resurrections from the dead, so I guess that means your answer to my question about John 5:28-29 is that it is indeed talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead? If so, how many hours/times did Jesus say are coming when all of the dead will be resurrected? Two? Or one?
LORD JESUS says:
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
 

strepho

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The rapture is false doctrine, Ezekiel chapter 13 to document. First thessalonians chapter 5, satan as antichrist will overtake the children of darkness. They wont study sound doctrine. Or just too lazy to study the bible. We have been hearing peace and safety. President of Ukraine said it. China offered peace plan. Second thessalonians 2:11. And for this cause God shall them strong delusions, that they should believe a lie. God will make those who choose to be biblically illiterate or playing church, will worship antichrist. They don't have the seal of God. God will let satan have his way with them. 2:12. That they all might be damned who believes not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. The sudden destruction is antichrist. He comes 6th trump. The children of darkness will be deceived by antichrist lies and deception. The children of light have the seal of God and gospel armory on. They're not going to worship antichrist. The children of darkness have mark of beast, strong delusions. I documented this.
 
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n2thelight

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So, Paul was writing about the second coming of Christ here and he first focused on what will happen to believers when Christ returns. The dead in Christ will be resurrected and those who are still alive at the time will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air.
The dead are already risen , they are those who come back with Him (Christ) at the 2nd coming
 

David in NJ

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The dead are already risen , they are those who come back with Him (Christ) at the 2nd coming
Those who come back with Christ at the Second Coming have not been Resurrected.

The Resurrection ONLY occurs at His Second Coming = 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep/died in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep/died.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
AFTER that we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 

WPM

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Here is the passage I'm referencing with some surrounding verses for context:

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, Paul was writing about the second coming of Christ here and he first focused on what will happen to believers when Christ returns. The dead in Christ will be resurrected and those who are still alive at the time will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air.

Then Paul shifts the focus to what will happen to unbelievers at that point. He talks about how they are in spiritual darkness, unlike believers who "are all children of the light". And he indicates that the day of the Lord, which is the day Christ returns, will come like a thief in the night (Jesus Himself said this as well - Matthew 24:42-44, Revelation 16:15). Which means He will come suddenly and unexpectedly, which is what Jesus Himself indicated when He said that no one knows the day or hour of His second coming (Matt 24:36,42-44; Matthew 25:13). And destruction will come upon believers at that time and it will be such that "they will not escape" it. And, based on 1 Thess 5:9, we can deduce that this destruction Paul was talking about is a result of God's wrath that believers, of course, will not have to experience.

So, it should be clear that 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 is talking about something that will happen on the day Christ returns. I think most of us here agree with that, whether we are pre-trib or post-trib and whether we are premil or amil. But, we don't all agree on what exactly Paul is saying in that passage in terms of who exactly will be experiencing the destruction resulting from God's wrath that he references there.

And this leads me to the main point that I'm intending to make in this thread. Those of us who are Amillennialists (except for some partial preterists who relate 1 Thess 4-5 to what happened in 70 AD) believe that the sudden and unexpected destruction that Paul wrote about will come upon all unbelievers in the world. That is why he said "they will not escape". None of them will. If any of them could escape it, then I don't believe he would have said "they will not escape". But, does it say that no unbelievers can escape it specifically? No. Is there any other scripture we can use to support that claim? Yes, there is.

Keep in mind that Paul is writing about the day of the Lord coming like a thief in 1 Thess 5:2-3. If the following isn't speaking of the same event, then I don't know how two scriptures can ever be related together. It's clear to me that Peter wrote about the same event here:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

When I read 2 Peter 3:10-13 and then I read 1 Thess 5:2-3, it occurs to me that it's no wonder that Paul said "they will not escape". How could anyone escape fire coming down upon the entire earth? Obviously, they couldn't. Only believers who will be changed and have immortal bodies could survive that.

So, with all of this in mind, how exactly is it possible that anyone could survive the sudden destruction resulting from God's wrath that will come down on the earth when Christ returns? Jesus Himself indicated that no unbelievers will survive that just as none survived the flood (Peter makes this same point in 2 Peter 3:5-7).

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

It seems clear to me that Paul and Peter taught the same thing that Jesus taught, which was that no unbelievers will survive His wrath when He comes again. As Jesus Himself indicated, just as "the flood came and took" all unbelievers away and killed them, "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". No unbelievers will survive His second coming, either. As Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13, we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in accordance with the promise of Christ's second coming. So, why look forward to an earthly millennial kingdom in accordance with the promise of His second coming instead? Especially when scripture indicates that no mortals will survive His return?

Excellent post bro. Full of truth for those who have eyes to see.
 

David in NJ

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ALL who hold to 'amillennialism' must read and believe Zechariah chapter 14 and rejoice in Truth and reject anything that opposes Truth.

God only wants us to believe His words and for us all to be One in Christ, One in the Holy Spirit and One Truth.

Our Goal that we should be striving for is 1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

This is not possible with men - but ALL Things are possible with God when we exalt His words above our own desires.
 

WPM

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ALL who hold to 'amillennialism' must read and believe Zechariah chapter 14 and rejoice in Truth and reject anything that opposes Truth.

God only wants us to believe His words and for us all to be One in Christ, One in the Holy Spirit and One Truth.

Our Goal that we should be striving for is 1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

This is not possible with men - but ALL Things are possible with God when we exalt His words above our own desires.

What Amillennialist does not "read and believe Zechariah chapter 14"?
 

WPM

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Everyone who say no one will be left - which is in opposition to God's word.

No. According to your misreading and misapplication of this passage. Can you first show us where in Zechariah 14 it even mentions (1) glorified saints, (2) inheritance or (3) the "new earth"? Basically: could you actually do a comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 for me? Could you show me any likeness or correlation? I don't see it.
 
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David in NJ

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No. According to your misreading and misapplication of this passage. Can you first show us where in Zechariah 14 it even mentions (1) glorified saints, (2) inheritance or (3) the "new earth"? Basically: could you actually do a comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 for me? Could you show me any likeness or correlation? I don't see it.
Your post is a perfect example of that which causes division.

Instead of demanding your way, do the Heavenly Blessing = Revelation 5:8-14
 

rwb

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Since you put it like that, I will comment in discussion, but not argument.

Yes, the 2 events that Paul and Peter speak of are the same.

The reason I'm commenting is that I believe you want to understand the other side, seeing that you and I disagree on several things concerning the Day of the Lord. So I will try to set the framework of how I see it for you to understand why we disagree.

It is impossible for me to show you all of this in just a few posts, but as long as we don't begin to argue, we can take as far as you like.

The Day of the Lord is not confined to the Second Coming. It is a vast time period that begins with the 7 year Tribulation and carries on through the 1000 years Millennial Reign. Let me show you the dividing distinctions used by Paul and Peter.

In Philippians Paul uses the term "the Day of Christ" 3 times, In 1 Thes. he uses the term, "the Day of the Lord," In 2 Peter, Peter uses the term, "the Day of the Lord," and in 2 Peter 3:12 he uses the term "the Day of God."

These are not one in the same, they are distinctions referring to particular times in the vast time period of the term, "the Day of the Lord," and beyond.

The "Day of Christ" is referring to the rapture, a separate event from the Second Coming.

The "Day of the Lord" as I have said, is the the vast time period immediately following the rapture, which includes the 7 year Tribulation, the Second Coming, and the Millennial Reign of Christ.

The "Day of God" is referring to the coming of the perfect earth, the Perfect Age that will last for eternity.

Now, in 1 Thes. 4:13-18 Paul is referring to the rapture, the Day of Christ, even though he does not mention a "Day," then beginning in chapter 5, he turns to the "Day of the Lord." Let me show you the further distinctions that bear this out.

Notice in 1 Thes. 5:3, Paul says "they," but in vs 4 he says "you." He is speaking of 2 different groups of people. The first group (you) is of course the believers at the Church of Thessalonica. The second group "they" are in fact the nation of Israel.

In the next post I will show you from Scripture how I know it is Israel. This is enough for now.

What then does Paul mean when twice he says "day of the Lord Jesus Christ" & "day of the Lord Jesus"?

1 Corinthians 1:8 (KJV) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 5:5 (KJV)
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It seems to deny these phrases are not referring to the second coming of Christ would be denying that Jesus Christ is both Lord and God?

The "day of the Lord/Jesus Christ/God" written after the first advent is speaking of the same last day when Christ comes back again. If we look at "the day of the Lord" coming prophesied from Old Covenant prophets, 'day' is not limited to the 'last day' but speaks of the whole Messianic Gospel age that began when the prophecy is fulfilled during this age/era/day/time. Therefore depending on whether we are trying to understand "the day of the Lord" coming from the Old Covenant perspective or the New Covenant perspective will determine whether it means one or the last day, or it means the whole Messianic Gospel age that began with the coming of the promised Messiah as Lord and Savior the Old Covenants prophets foretold would come.
 

WPM

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Your post is a perfect example of that which causes division.

Instead of demanding your way, do the Heavenly Blessing = Revelation 5:8-14

I didn't expect you to answer that. Premils cannot. They force their beliefs upon that text to justify their beloved doctrine. There is rarely a theological argument presented by Premils explaining their position on Revelation 20 that does not submit Zechariah 14 as supporting evidence for their position. Premils talk as if these two texts fit together neatly to support their viewpoint. The only problem is, careful study of both will find there is no correlation between the detail in Zechariah 14 and that in Revelation 20. Trying to associate one with the other is like putting a square peg into a round whole. The detail is completely different.

First of all, Zechariah 14 makes absolutely no allusion to a future 1,000 years after the second coming, or does Zechariah 14 compare with any of the detail outlined in Revelation 20 (start, middle or finish). The detail occurring at the end of Revelation 20 only compares with the many passages relating to Christ’s one final future all-consummating Second Advent – there we see the destruction of every enemy of Christ and righteousness.

A helpful pointer that should aid the open-minded reader dissect the book of Zechariah is the phrase “in that day.” It connects the whole book together. It is mentioned 20 times in this Old Testament prophecy. It is extremely notable that reference after reference to “in that day” actually refers to the 1st Advent. Zechariah 14 also describes AD 70 and the spread of the Gospel to the darkened nations.

AD 70 is referenced in Zechariah 13 and 14 but generally it is a symbolic looking at Christ's ministry. There are a mixture of events relating to the life and ministry of Christ, Jerusalem's judgment (AD 70), the going out of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Notwithstanding, these are all tied together in Christ – and cannot be divorced one from another. Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success.

Second, as you study the New Testament you see that the wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes, this disallows the placing of this after the second coming. There will be no mortals or no sinners to populate the new earth, what is more, they are prohibited from inheriting it (Matthew 25:34 &25:46, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and 1 Corinthians 15:50).

Thirdly, the keeping of the Judaic sacrificial system has been eternally abolished (see Galatians 4:9-10, Colossians 2:14, 16, 20-22 ). Many of the place names in Jerusalem don't exist anymore. Localized worship in a brick temple in Jerusalem has gone forever. We now worship God in spirit and in truth John 4:21).
 
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rwb

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Your post is a perfect example of that which causes division.

Instead of demanding your way, do the Heavenly Blessing = Revelation 5:8-14

It's not demanding our own way when asking for Biblical proof for what you allege is truth. If you see that as causing division perhaps it's because you cannot support what you allege from the Word of God?