Do We as Christians Keep the Mosaic Law?

Saint said:

Are we commanded to love and obey God? Does that command still apply to us today? Have we been placed under the authority of God the Father and does He rule over us today?

Let me put it another way; in this secular world are we under the authority of the law and if we disobey it are we punished? It’s really no different in the Kingdom of God; we are under His authority and if we disobey His commandments we are subject to punishment. The difference is we are forgiven for unmeaning mistakes if we seek forgiveness. However if we continue to disobey with disregards to the law we are placed in prison.

I’m not a legalist but I am a realist.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

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See the new testament for your answers.

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

I read all of these posts and there are several things missing that we all might want to consider.

Are you aware of what is God's law of sin and death ?

Law in and of itself does not save..

And, what is a little harder to understand is that the Mosaic law was only given to the descendants of Abraham standing that day at Mt. sinai--Complete Jewish version--

Deu 5:1 Then — Moshe called to all Isra'el and said to them, "Listen, Isra'el, to the laws and rulings which I am announcing in your hearing today, so that you will learn them and take care to obey them.
Deu 5:2 Adonai our God made a covenant with us at Horev.
Deu 5:3 Adonai did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us — with us, who are all of us here alive today.

In other words today for anyone to take any part of this law and attempt to bind it on either Christians or the folks in the world is attempting to bind on them a law that kills.

"LAW" existed prior to Mt. sinai and then God takes these folks out of His covenant moral law of sin and of death and gives them this new covenant law.

Note that God's moral law of sin and of death continued to be used by God to govern the Gentiles.

At the cross--because the Jews crucified the son of God--God removed the Mosaic law--at the cross.

Folks then and folks now don't want to accept that--

For 50 days the Jews were put back under God's moral law of sin and death

All men are thus concluded in unbelief--then the new covenant begins and folks that is in Acts 2 on Pentecost not way back in matt 1:1
Everyone who hears, believes and obeys the good news of the new covenant--divorces God's moral law of sin and death and they do so by marrying Christ Rom 7:1-4.

Everyone today is under God's Moral law of sin and of death. Our only escape from this law is to marry Christ{obey the gospel}

Richard 79408

Through Yeshua we are born again; we are removed from the authority of sin and now live under the authority of the Father, God sees us as righteous in His eyes but unproven. Prior to that we couldn’t stand before God in fellowship even if we would have been so inclined, He would reject us as slaves to sin. In other words slaves to the flesh (Rom 6:6); we are now slaves to the Spirit of Yeshua. However we still live in a fleshly body and we are told in Rom 6:12 to not allow the body to control our actions; we are to mortify the body, killing the desires it presents. When we allow the body to control our actions (lust, greed, anger, jealousy, etc.) we live in sin. If we get drunk we allow the body to control our actions and we live in sin.

Now you tell me; what action steps do we take to mortify the flesh? What steps do we take to grow in the spirit? If you were a new convert to Yeshua but no one ever taught you or gave you Gods word to guide you and train you, could you grow in the Spirit? Would the Spirit of Yeshua living in you be sufficient to guide you in your walk? Would you know how to love others if you were still guided by the flesh? Is it a sin to commit adultery, is it a sin to worship another god, is it a sin to murder, is it a sin not to honor your father and mother, and is it a sin to steal or covet? If these things are not a sin then you are no longer under the law, however if they are sinful then you are still under the Ten Commandments.

You don’t have to obey these commandments to be saved but you obey these commandments because you love God; as God says if you love me you will obey my commandments.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Saint, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

When we talk about the Mosaic law we are by necessity talking about the covenant God made with Israel at Mt. sinai.
That was a law not made with any but the physical descendants of Abraham present at that time and with their descendents.
we look at this text --2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

But on the other hand we neglect to tie this text given earlier to the one above--2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The Mosaic covenant did not end at Matt 1:1 BUT rather at the cross--the law, all of it including the ten commandments was removed from the Jewish people.. It never ever applied to anyone else.

Everyone else was under God's moral law of sin and of death. This is the law the Jews themselves were under until the givingof the Mosaic law--and what the jews fell back under and are still under today--unless they marry Christ.

There is found in the new covenant two statements that more than cover the ten commandments..but you are correct in the sense that if any attempt to live under such--they are lost in sin--man could never ever keep that law..


richard79408

Greetings from sunny Texas,
Here is some information to think about..Sometimes in scripture when we read the word "law" it is not always easy to decide which law but here are some examples from Romans

The Six Different Laws Described In The Book Of Romans

While some deny the existence of God's moral law and contend that the New Testament sets forth only the one law of Christ's new covenant, the truth is that in the book of Romans -- the apostle Paul discusses the moral law and five different divine laws and covenants that have run concurrently with the moral law.

God's moral law is not just human theory, as some argue, it is revealed in the teaching of the Scriptures and is discussed at length in the new covenant of Christ. While numerous passages establish man's innate morality and knowledge of "good and evil," the first three chapters of Genesis reveal its origin, and the first eight chapters of Romans reveal both the universal realm and continuing rule of God's moral law. No one today can successfully contend that God's moral law is not an established fact in the human experience or that it is not revealed in both the Old or New Testaments. No one can plead ignorance of God's moral law -- for they will be without excuse before God (Rom. 1:18-32).

Since there has been no covenant law from God under which all men in all ages were accountable to as the covenant children of God, the only possible divine law to which all men could be accountable -- was and is -- God's moral "law of sin and death" (Gen. 2:9-17.
The Bible plainly declares that "where there is no law there is no sin" (Rom. 2:4:15; 3:19); however, because all men are sinners (Rom. 2:23), there must be a universal law which all men have transgressed. Which law? That law was and is -- God's moral "law of sin and death." This is Christ's , the Holy Spirit's and the apostle's argument throughout the book of Romans.

Some maintain that Paul's teaching in Romans is a contrast between the two covenant laws of Moses and Christ, with no references to other established laws of God. They contend that the word "law" or "the law" always refers to the law of Moses.

However, while Paul does contrast the two covenant laws, he also makes numerous contrasts between God's moral law and covenant law. In Romans, Paul speaks of at least six different laws. God's universal moral law, the physical law of creation, civil law and several different covenant laws. There are several passages in Romans where Paul refers to several different laws in the same passage (e.g. 7:1-25). To understand his teaching, we must study within the context of his use of the word "law" in each passage. Note the following different laws to which Paul refers in the book of Romans.

1. Christ's New Covenant law: Romans 1:1-7; 2:16; 5:1-9: 6:1- 23; 8:1-39; 10:8-18; 12:1- 21; 13:8-14; 14:1­1-6; 16:27.
2. God's moral "law of sin and death": Romans 1:18-32; 2:12-16; 5:12-21; 7:13-25; 8:2; 9:17-30; 11:13-25.
3. Old Testament Law of Moses: Romans 1:2; 2:17-19; 3:1-4; 7:1-12; 9:1-16, 31-33; 10:1-7, 19-21; 11:1-12, 26-36; 16:25-26.
4. Abrahamic covenant law: Romans 4:1-25.
5. Civil law: Romans 13:1-7.
6. Physical law of creation: Romans 1:18.

Thanks Richard...

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

I'm still trying to get the understanding of the formatting on this forum; nothing is ever just like I would like for it to appear and I don't see a spell checker, which I need rather badly

richard79408 said:

When we talk about the Mosaic law we are by necessity talking about the covenant God made with Israel at Mt. sinai.

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That's not completely true. Not everything God gave through Moses involves the Old Covenant. This is one of the problem myths among many Churches that have been duped into thinking all of God's laws are now dead and nailed to Christ's cross. Colossians 2 and Ephesians 2 tells what was nailed to Christ's cross that involved Old Covenant worship. It was the handwriting of ordinances in the law, i.e., religious ceremonial worship, Levitical priest system, blood ordinances, various washings, and sacrificial ordinances.

Laws God gave through Moses also involved commandments against murder, rape, incest, thefts, perjury, homosexuality, witchcraft, bearing false witness (slander/libel), laws dealing with property ownership, inheritences, government and military operations, food laws, agricultural laws, clothing, etc. The law systems of the western Christian nations took these laws from The Bible, and many of them are most definitely still in effect today. The Leviticus 19 commandment to 'love thy neighbour as thyself' was also first given on Mt. Sinai through Moses.

The Lawless one is who has been busy breaking down our Christian society in trying to remove and confuse those laws among us. Apostle Paul covered many of those laws in Gal.5 and 1 Cor.6, saying those who break those laws will not inherit the Kingdom of God, and that's a New Testament Doctrine.

The Mosaic covenant did not end at Matt 1:1 BUT rather at the cross--the law, all of it including the ten commandments was removed from the Jewish people.. It never ever applied to anyone else.

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Simply not true. The first 5 of the Ten Commandments involve our relationship with God, and the last 5 involve mostly our relationship with each other. None of that was done away with by our Lord Jesus Christ. It's the Lawless that have been busy today illegally attacking Ten Commandment displays down in our nation.

Even prior to Moses, we can see certain laws of God instituted among those He chose. What Lot's daughters did was considered a sin, yet the law was not given through Moses yet. Ham committed incest with his own mother per Gen.9 (Lev.18 & 20), but the law was not given through Moses yet, but it was considered a sin by Noah.

Saint said:

Hi Richard; I didn't say sinless but to sin willfully , there is a differance. However you will have to admitt that there is a wide range of maturity in the brothers as they develop.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

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Yes, they get older and the fires of sin die down.

upon the appearance of the new covenant the laws became more like guidelines for us then laws. according to the word there is nothing we can do to fulfill the law. only one person has fulfilled the law and he became sin for us. the only people who need to worry about the law are the unsaved because the unsaved do not have Christ as their sacrifice for their sins. christians no longer live under the law but by the Spirit. now we all know that the law is good and so the Holy Spirit as he teaches us will work those laws into us and make them apart of us. for if we lived by the law alone then we would not be able to get rid of our sins every time we broke those laws. the old testament shows us that the sacrifice and blood of the animals covered their sins but God did not forget their sins. now the new testament covenant is different. in this new covenant Jesus became our sacrifice for us and because of it Jesus has made of as white as snow as if we have done nothing wrong. if animal sacrifice could of accomplished a sin free life then Jesus would not of needed to die for us. animal sacrifice was a stepping stone to the real lamb who was Jesus Christ.

so the answer to whether or not we follow moses' law is no. we follow God's law. it sounds similar but like the animal sacrifice and the Jesus sacrifice there is a difference in them. moses' law is a law passed down for man which is impossible to keep for man no matter how hard he tries. where God's law is written on our hearts. and what is in our hearts will come out in how we live our lives. with God's law all we need to do is humble ourselves and accept that we don't know anything and just let God fix us. but many times we think we know better then God instead of turning to God and asking him. an example of this is all the different denominations of the christian faith. why is there such a wide difference in teaching? God is the same yesterday, today, and forever so we know God did not have all these beliefs because many conflict with each other and God is not a God of strife. the god of strife is the devil so somehow and somewhere he corrupted God's true doctrine into what they are today. the only problem with God's law is that we need to give up the worldly things for God and most christians are not willing to go that far. this is one reason christians think God does not move today like he did in the bible. it makes me sad knowing that this happens a lot today but hard times are coming and i thank God for it because soon God will start dividing his sheep from the goats.

God bless you all

Veteran, greetings in Christ from sunny Tex,

The mosaic law given at Mt. Sinai--takes God's people out of God's Moral law of sin and of death and gives them a specific set of laws. God has never separated out any of those laws one from another.

Only man has made the separation but God has not. What we all have to get is that anyone and everyone who attempts to use any part of that Mosaic law to bind upon Christians today is not Doing the will of God.

you said--Laws God gave through Moses also involved commandments against murder, rape, incest, thefts, perjury, homosexuality, witchcraft, bearing false witness (slander/libel), laws dealing with property ownership, inheritences, government and military operations, food laws, agricultural laws, clothing, etc. The law systems of the western Christian nations took these laws from The Bible, and many of them are most definitely still in effect today

My response--I can sortof understand why some folks would think this but it is not true.

God's moral law of sin and death existed in the garden--it is given to every man\woman at birth--and it was\is the law that God took the descendants of Abraham out of and instituted the Mosaic covenant.

Covenants between man and God are very one sided..God gives the way it is and may either does or does not. Man has not been given the right anywhere in the texts to pick and choose which ones we want for today and which ones we do not want. And the reasoning for that should be self evident--If God left it to us--we would have more of a mess than what we have today.
The nations began to develop after the incident at the tower of Babel--folks separated out by languages and take off across the world--There was no Mosaic law present--

At. Mt. Sinai God encircled His people with a new covenant law--that was not permanent--

This idea that men need to be under the Mosaic law is not a new one--it was an issue that was resolved in Acts by the Jerusalem church in its message to the Gentiles.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: <emphasis only><why? because many times we read it but don't digest it>

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

For me I am going to have to choose to listen here to the Apostles and the command that they gave to the Gentiles--after admitting that they the Jews, could not keep that law--that they had not commanded anyone to keep any part of the law.

There is not a real easy way through this except to add to our pool of knowledge from scripture--God's moral law of sin and of death.
If you want to know more you can go to this site --

http://rgfheart.com/abs/1/ and in the navagation bar choose Moral law of sin and of death. You should get a cup of coffee and be prepared to spend some time in this.

Now, at the cross every bit of the Mosaic law went away for the Jews and we need to understand that the Law was never given to anyone but the Jews present at that day and with their descendants.

They the Jews are now under God's moral law of sin and of death and to escape that law--they must marry Christ--Obey the gospel on God's terms and thus the new Christian now becomes governed by the law of Christ--everything from Acts 2 through Revelation.
An example--Take England--which has laws governing say concerning the crime of murder.

We in the United States also have laws governing the crime of murder--and, that may be identical to those of England or just partially so.
But if you live in England and committ murder--even as an American you are going to be tried according to law of England.

As a Christian today--we are under the law of Christ and governed by it--but those who are not are governed and judged by God by His moral law of sin and of death.

Now God's Moral law of sin and of Death and the Mosaic law and the law of Christ--all have commands but only those under that particular covenant are governed by the laws of that covenant.

And, today the lawof Moses is totally gone.

richard79408

Veteran, greetings in Christ from sunny Tex,
I want to finish with a separate post because you raise some good points.

Quote--I Richard had stated--The Mosaic covenant did not end at Matt 1:1 BUT rather at the cross--the law, all of it including the ten commandments was removed from the Jewish people.. It never ever applied to anyone else.


To which you replied

Simply not true. The first 5 of the Ten Commandments involve our relationship with God, and the last 5 involve mostly our relationship with each other. None of that was done away with by our Lord Jesus Christ. It's the Lawless that have been busy today illegally attacking Ten Commandment displays down in our nation.

Even prior to Moses, we can see certain laws of God instituted among those He chose. What Lot's daughters did was considered a sin, yet the law was not given through Moses yet. Ham committed incest with his own mother per Gen.9 (Lev.18 & 20), but the law was not given through Moses yet, but it was considered a sin by Noah.

My observation--because we do not consider God's Moral law of sin and of death--we try to account for sin by attempting to take the law backwards.
Here is what put me on the track of God's Moral law of sin and of death --

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

The complete Jewish Bibles says it in this manner--

Deu 5:1 Then — Moshe called to all Isra'el and said to them, "Listen, Isra'el, to the laws and rulings which I am announcing in your hearing today, so that you will learn them and take care to obey them.
Deu 5:2 Adonai our God made a covenant with us at Horev.
Deu 5:3 Adonai did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us — with us, who are all of us here alive today.
God inserted the Mosaic law at Mt. Sinai and removed it at the cross.

Now is it not reasonable to assume that if the Apostles:
[1] admitted that they as Jews could not keep the law
[2] That they stated that they had not commanded the Gentiles to keep any part of the Mosaic law
[3] Gave the Gentiles simple instructions and let it go at that--leaving the law out of it.
That we would do well to do also?

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
It is not a good idea to attempt to put us today under any part, any part of the Mosaic law--however it is named--Paul tells us that the penality is severe. God's Moral law of sin and of death helps understand covenant law and covenant accountability.

http://rgfheart.com/abs/1/ and in the navagation bar choose Moral law of sin and of death. You should get a cup of coffee and be prepared to spend some time in this.

I have to admit getting formatting here today is not easy and is not working well at all.
Richard 79408

richard79408 said:

Veteran, greetings in Christ from sunny Tex,

The mosaic law given at Mt. Sinai--takes God's people out of God's Moral law of sin and of death and gives them a specific set of laws. God has never separated out any of those laws one from another.

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That's a very vague statement. The relationship of Adam's lineage with God down to Moses reveals God had a law even before Mt. Sinai and Moses. it's the PROMISE by Faith that was separate from God's laws, not the creation separated from God's laws. God's laws are established in His creation; we cannot get around their effect. They do not save us, which is the distinction from God's saving Grace by Faith on Christ's Blood shed upon the cross. Recognizing this distinction has nothing to do with the idea of thinking to follow God's laws in order to be saved.

Only man has made the separation but God has not. What we all have to get is that anyone and everyone who attempts to use any part of that Mosaic law to bind upon Christians today is not Doing the will of God.

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My above paragraph explains the difference. The recognition that God's laws are established in His creation being a distinct idea from His Promise of Salvation by Faith has nothing to do with thinking to be saved by those laws. Early Christianity recognized this distinction and that's why the founders of the Christian nations took God's laws from The Bible in order to govern Christian society with. it was not in thinking to be saved by using and recognizing those laws, it was to keep law and order among God's people so they could have peace, and prosper.

The ONLY way use of God's laws can 'bind upon Christian' brethren (i.e., put us back in bondage), is:
1) - by thinking that we must be perfect in following the law in order to be saved, or
2) - by committing acts of lawlessness which then brings upon us a judgment per those establsihed laws in society.

That's the difference. Recognizing God's laws which our Lord Jesus did not nail to His cross, and using them to govern our society is not a going back into bondage to the law. It's instead about keeping law and order among the lawless, as even Apostle Paul said, "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" (1 Timothy 1:8-10).

you said--Laws God gave through Moses also involved commandments against murder, rape, incest, thefts, perjury, homosexuality, witchcraft, bearing false witness (slander/libel), laws dealing with property ownership, inheritences, government and military operations, food laws, agricultural laws, clothing, etc. The law systems of the western Christian nations took these laws from The Bible, and many of them are most definitely still in effect today

My response--I can sortof understand why some folks would think this but it is not true.

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Oh yes it is... most definitely true!

Go out and commit murder and see what happens. Go rob a store and see what happens. Perjure yourself on the witness stand and see what happens. Rape someone and see what happens. To even think one moment those laws don't still exist in Christian society is to side with the lawless and wicked who commit such things against God's laws.

The rest of your post is completely irrelevant.

The DIVIDING LINE IS CLEAR:

Either we as Christians recognize what God's laws are for (i.e., the wicked), even in Christian society, or we have become a 'lawless' people where the lawless and wicked instead rule over us. We can only choose one side or the other; there is no neutral side on this issue.

Veteran, greetings in Christ from sunny Tex,
I had stated

The mosaic law given at Mt. Sinai--takes God's people out of God's Moral law of sin and of death and gives them a specific set of laws. God has never separated out any of those laws one from another.

That's a very vague statement. The relationship of Adam's lineage with God down to Moses reveals God had a law even before Mt. Sinai and Moses
My response--Let me try again and re word it. From the time of Adam forward--God's Moral law of sin and of death has been in effect.
This is the law that the descendents of Abraham are under up till the time of Mt. Sinai where God having separated His people out from the rest of the world gave them the Mosaic law.
To be continued
Richard 79408

richard79408 said:

Veteran, greetings in Christ from sunny Tex,
I had stated

The mosaic law given at Mt. Sinai--takes God's people out of God's Moral law of sin and of death and gives them a specific set of laws. God has never separated out any of those laws one from another.

That's a very vague statement. The relationship of Adam's lineage with God down to Moses reveals God had a law even before Mt. Sinai and Moses
My response--Let me try again and re word it. From the time of Adam forward--God's Moral law of sin and of death has been in effect.
This is the law that the descendents of Abraham are under up till the time of Mt. Sinai where God having separated His people out from the rest of the world gave them the Mosaic law.
To be continued
Richard 79408

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I don't know who you're listening to, but they aren't teaching you properly about what changes our Lord Jesus made with bringing His New Covenant.

Many preachers stand up at the pulpit today and wrongly preach that all of God's law is now dead under The New Covenant when our Lord Jesus nor His Apostle Paul never taught such an idea. What Paul did teach... was that those in Christ have become 'dead' to the law IF... we walk by The Spirit and not by our flesh. Paul preached the continuance of God's laws existing, and made the distinction of who and what God's laws are for (for the wicked).

In Galatians, Paul was specific about our relationship with Christ Jesus and God's laws. Walking by The Spirit he showed is not against any of God's laws, and that's specifically 'how' we become 'dead' to the law under Christ Jesus. But go out and walk by the flesh again, and it means putting oneself back... into bondage under the law. Why? Because God's laws are not simply about some religious order, but how society is governed and ordered, even Christian society. Even in America among the early Christians, they knew this and held God's laws to govern their own society.

But now, it's the time of the evil one, and the lawless. One can't hardly go out on the street without running into a bunch of lawless criminals that have been let loose by the Liberal Leftists who won't lift a finger to punish the lawless. Thus God's people are getting just what they deserve today, a society run amuk controlled by the wicked one.

Veteran, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

I had stated..
Only man has made the separation but God has not. What we all have to get is that anyone and everyone who attempts to use any part of that Mosaic law to bind upon Christians today is not Doing the will of God.
you said
My above paragraph explains the difference. The recognition that God's laws are established in His creation being a distinct idea from His Promise of Salvation by Faith has nothing to do with thinking to be saved by those laws. Early Christianity recognized this distinction and that's why the founders of the Christian nations took God's laws from The Bible in order to govern Christian society with. it was not in thinking to be saved by using and recognizing those laws, it was to keep law and order among God's people so they could have peace, and prosper.

The Mosaic law was the only law nailed to the cross--it had served it purpose--God removed the Mosaic law forever--and, remember, it was never ever given to any but the Jews at mt. Sinai.

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Those laws existed in all nations prior to the givingof the Mosaic law.

One example is God's moral law of sin and of death that both Abraham and Joseph lived under. The Mosaic law was not around to tell Joseph not to commit adultery--but He knew.

God's Moral law of sin and death existed--beginning in the garden long before the promise of faith.

The Mosaic law has run its course....
Richard79408

Veteran, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,
I quoted what you had stated
you said--Laws God gave through Moses also involved commandments against murder, rape, incest, thefts, perjury, homosexuality, witchcraft, bearing false witness (slander/libel), laws dealing with property ownership, inheritences, government and military operations, food laws, agricultural laws, clothing, etc. The law systems of the western Christian nations took these laws from The Bible, and many of them are most definitely still in effect today

And
My response--I can sortof understand why some folks would think this but it is not true.
to which you said..

Oh yes it is... most definitely true!
My second response--from a scriptural standpoint this is not true.
God's Moral law of sin and of death read aboutit here
http://rgfheart.com/abs/1/ and choose Moral law of sin and of death.
you said

Go out and commit murder and see what happens. Go rob a store and see what happens. Perjure yourself on the witness stand and see what happens. Rape someone and see what happens. To even think one moment those laws don't still exist in Christian society is to side with the lawless and wicked who commit such things against God's laws.

Again, I do understand what you are saying, but the source is wrong--It is not the Mosaic law--It is God's Moral law of sin and of death that existed prior to during and after the Mosaic law.

All those crimes you mention did not begin to happen after Christ arrived here on the earth. Certainly they existed prior to the Mosaic law and thus they still exist today.
All those laws you mentioned today--come from God's moral law of sin and of death.
Now, to make sure we are clear on some things--Law never did save anyone.
Yet under law many people were redeemed--Abraham, Joseph.
Perhaps your problem is that you do not spend much time on these verses--Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
you said

The rest of your post is completely irrelevant.
REALLY?????????

The DIVIDING LINE IS CLEAR:

Either we as Christians recognize what God's laws are for (i.e., the wicked), even in Christian society, or we have become a 'lawless' people where the lawless and wicked instead rule over us. We can only choose one side or the other; there is no neutral side on this issue.
My response--by your own post--this is really wrong. Nations care not who or what you are or are not. If a christian breaks one of these laws--He is subject to them--and the appropriate measure will be given.
As a Christian, I am subject to those rules that govern America, where I live and further by the STate of Texas where I reside.
And you are corrrect, If I or any other Christian commit those crimes you gave--we would be punished--according to the law.
Actually you have picked the wrong two sides to choose from.
Side one--the world--the world is already dead in sin--already judged and doomed. God will govern and judge them by God's moral law of sin and of death.
Side two--Those who are Christians--they are not exempt from the laws of the civil government--in fact when civil government conflict with the laws of Christ--we are to choose Christ.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
I believe these verses explain it very well.
Richard 79408

Rom 13:1-6
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
(KJV)


The "higer powers" Paul is talking about there are those whom God places in power over us, specifically 'rulers'!

And what methods do 'rulers' use from God? LAWS!


That's why arguments implying that God's laws no longer exist is a silly and ignorant argument, and very, very un-Biblical. Those who argue such show how they have yet to understand how God is still in control of His creation.

Furthermore, Col.2 and Eph.2 is SPECIFIC on just what law our Lord Jesus Christ nailed to His cross. And you are completely EVADING that Scriptural fact.

So either you've come here to push 'lawlessness' upon Christianity, or you've simply been deceived by false prophets. I'll let others here decide which.

Veteran, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,
you said
I don't know who you're listening to, but they aren't teaching you properly about what changes our Lord Jesus made with bringing His New Covenant.
My observation--you might be correct here except I have used nothing but the texts and they are not lying to me at all.
And, you are now guilty of changing the subject--I have said little on the new covenant--just emphasising the passing of the Mosaic Covenant.

However, I have said enough to be clear even on this--The New Covenant begins in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost--not in Matt 1:1 with the birth of Jesus. Hope that helps.

you said
Many preachers stand up at the pulpit today and wrongly preach that all of God's law is now dead under The New Covenant when our Lord Jesus nor His Apostle Paul never taught such an idea.
My response--Unfortunately for your thinking, they did. And you yourself used the term New Covenant did you not?
Pray tell all of us what the word "NEW" means? just think about it..Try reading Luk 5:36 Then he gave them an illustration: "No one tears a piece from a new coat and puts it on an old one; if he does, not only will the new one continue to rip, but the piece from the new will not match the old.
Luk 5:37 Also, no one puts new wine into old wineskins; if he does, the new wine will burst the skins and be spilled, and the skins too will be ruined.
Luk 5:38 On the contrary, new wine must be put into freshly prepared wineskins.

Next you stated
What Paul did teach... was that those in Christ have become 'dead' to the law IF... we walk by The Spirit and not by our flesh. Paul preached the continuance of God's laws existing, and made the distinction of who and what God's laws are for (for the wicked).

My observation--wrong "law" here This is a little hard to pick up on the first time or two around but while Paul
was a Jew--At the cross--God removed the Mosaic law--Paul while a Jew was converted out of God's Moral law of sin and of death.
Paul most certainly did not teach the continuation of the Mosaic Law--as an Apostle He knew better A careful reading of Paul in Romans 7:1-4 makes this clear.
you stated
In Galatians, Paul was specific about our relationship with Christ Jesus and God's laws. Walking by The Spirit he showed is not against any of God's laws, and that's specifically 'how' we become 'dead' to the law under Christ Jesus.
Paul again shows the existence of both God's Moral law of sin and of death and the law of Christ here--
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

you said
But go out and walk by the flesh again, and it means putting oneself back... into bondage under the law. Why? Because God's laws are not simply about some religious order, but how society is governed and ordered, even Christian society. Even in America among the early Christians, they knew this and held God's laws to govern their own society.
My response--I see a rather disjointed statement given above--First century Christians were under the Roman law--civil government--Even in early America--all are governed by civil authority.
Does not scripture tell us well read it here--
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
you stated

But now, it's the time of the evil one, and the lawless. One can't hardly go out on the street without running into a bunch of lawless criminals that have been let loose by the Liberal Leftists who won't lift a finger to punish the lawless. Thus God's people are getting just what they deserve today, a society run amuk controlled by the wicked one.
My response--<the following is for emphasis only>IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE TIME OF THE LAWLESS ONE--QUITE FRANKLY OUR CURRENT SOCIETY HERE IN AMERICA--BUT IT IS NOT NEW--IT MAY BE NEW TO US--BUT NOT TO GOD.
Now, why be such a pessimest? I am not--this is one of the greatest times in our history to represent Christ. In the midst of evil Good gets a chance to shine with the gospel of Christ. Christians have never been immune from the ills of their society--never.
Richard 79408

richard79408 said:

Veteran, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,
you said

Click to expand...

richard79408 said:

I don't know who you're listening to, but they aren't teaching you properly about what changes our Lord Jesus made with bringing His New Covenant.

My observation--you might be correct here except I have used nothing but the texts and they are not lying to me at all.
And, you are now guilty of changing the subject--I have said little on the new covenant--just emphasising the passing of the Mosaic Covenant.

Click to expand...

There's a difference between 'using' the texts vs. understanding them. And I'm still very much on topic, the laws God gave through Moses, which apparently, you fail to recognize how many of them still exist in today's Christian society, and among the early Christian nations.

You specifically fail to address what Paul said in 1 Timothy 1 of how God's laws are still in effect for the wicked. Those laws were specifically given through Moses.


1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of The blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
(KJV)



Until you begin to recognize that, then there's no reason to continue this coversation with you, for the platform you speak from is a false platform from men's traditions, and not Scriptural.

Veteran, greetings in Christ frm sunny Texas,
I quoted--Romans 13:1-6 to which you replied
The "higer powers" Paul is talking about there are those whom God places in power over us, specifically 'rulers'!

And what methods do 'rulers' use from God? LAWS!

My response--OK so what is your problem? I have with the texts shown that

[1] Law existed prior to the mosiac law
[2] That same law--God's Moral law of sin and of Death existed prior to--during and after the Mosaic law
[3] At the cross--The Mosaic law went away
[4] That God is in control--whether via governments--Romans 13 or by the New Covenant began in Acts 2
[5] That the Mosaic law was given to very specific group of people and no one else
[6] God thus judges the world at the time of Mt. sinai by two laws
[a] For the people we call Jews--the Mosaic Law
For the Gentiles in the world--Still God's Moral law of sin and of death.
[c] Thus that Mosaic law applies to no one today--none, zip, nada
I agree that God has used laws to govern folks--just not the same folks for everyone all the time.

For your own purposes--you are not making an attempt to understand these differences in law and unless you do you will never ever get it right. So it tells me that you are attempting to protect a man made doctrine--

you stated
That's why arguments implying that God's laws no longer exist is a silly and ignorant argument, and very, very un-Biblical. Those who argue such show how they have yet to understand how God is still in control of His creation.

My respponse--strange, very strange--evidently you are not reading correctly.. I have shown by scripture what has been stated above.
The only law that does not exist today--is the Mosaic law given until the promise was fulfilled in Christ. Man is still very much under law--Just not the Mosaic law--
[1]Folks are born into this world
[2] law is in this world but not imputed to children
[3] Sin uses the law to destroy man when that man\woman reaches the point in their life similiar to Pauls
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

[4] Man dies--becomes separated from God by sin...because sin used the law to kill us.

[5] All men at this point are under God's Moral law of sin and of death

IN THIS CONDITION--when man hears and believes and obeys the gospel of Jesus Christ--God adopts you out of the law of sin and of death into the new covenant law--the law of Christ.

[7] James 1:12-17 makes it clear that if we under the law of Christ to enter into our lives and govern us again--we die and God will then judge us by the law of sin and of death--His Moral law.

Finally--you stated
Furthermore, Col.2 and Eph.2 is SPECIFIC on just what law our Lord Jesus Christ nailed to His cross. And you are completely EVADING that Scriptural fact.


My response--I have already addressed that issue i.e. what does the word New mean--and by showing again with scripture
the illustration of the wineskins--are you telling us that you are denying these things?
But I will have more to say as time goes on--even on your texts.
you stated
So either you've come here to push 'lawlessness' upon Christianity, or you've simply been deceived by false prophets. I'll let others here decide which.

My response--I am sorry about this--but my grandmother has always told me that If I could not take the heat--to stay of of the kitchen--you might consider this with this statement of yours..

Well, I will say this--I prefer the teachings of the scripture over rantings that are not edifying..And so far from you
you take offense at the scriptures when they show you you need to rethink some of this..Doesn't say much now, does it?

Richard79408

Veteran, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,
you said--There's a difference between 'using' the texts vs. understanding them. And I'm still very much on topic, the laws God gave through Moses, which apparently, you fail to recognize how many of them still exist in today's Christian society, and among the early Christian nations.

You specifically fail to address what Paul said in 1 Timothy 1 of how God's laws are still in effect for the wicked. Those laws were specifically given through Moses.

My question: Are you on a broken record? It seems that everytime I read what you writen--I have failed to address something--Perhaps you should rethink that???? It is not a great way to progress through life or bible study.

Now--you need to wake up--MAN CANNOT KEEP THE LAW..PAUL HIMSELF HAS SO STATED...
God's Moral law of sin and of death existed long before the Mosaic law came into being. True____ False______
What God provided with the Mosaic law--was a system of offerings and sacrifices to be offered WHEN THE JEWS BROKE THE LAW..because break it they did.
Now, let me review in my mind what you and I have shared together so far.
[1] you don't want anything except what you are saying
[2] When you reach a certain point--your post reflect a meanness that reflects the treasure of your heart.
[3] You are a lot like a kid in my neighborhood growing up. He had a monopoly set--Did not matter what the rules were--either we played by his or we didn't play. And, I certain can see that kid in you with your posts.
[4] This is a good thing--taking my advice and getting out of the kitchen due to the heat..nothing wrong with that--I am glad that you are wise enough to see it.
[5] God's law's apply to all--Christians are not exempt--something you seem to not see.
[6] Those sins found in I Tim 1:8-11 existed long prior to the Mosaic law--
[7] Paul was converted out of God's Moral law of sin and of death Not the Mosaic law--it went away at the cross.
[8] You make statements illustrating that I have not done something but when I do--you totally ignore it. That is not good bible study.
[9] However, I do recognise the problems many have the first time around the street understanding covenants and the laws. It takes time--to put it all together.
Richard 79408