Do We as Christians Keep the Mosaic Law?

JLB said:

How about this one - Walk before Me and be blameless.

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Genesis 17:1 "Walk before Me and be blameless."

That covers everything doesn't it. Perhaps if we want a single commandement that would be it? and if we were to combine that with the comand to love our neighbour we have righteous living according to Almighty God in a nutshell?

Can anyone think of any 'loopholes'?

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

The Law cannot annul the covenant.

The Law was added till the Seed should come!

But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Yet the law is not of faith...

Without faith it is impossible to please God! The Law is not of faith!

THEREFORE KEEPING THE LAW DOES NOT PLEASE GOD! FAITH IN WHAT JESUS DID ON THE CROSS DOES!


JLB

Keeping the law for salvation is the mistake the pharisees made. Jesus is God who is the promised Messiah of the New Covanent and salvation is through faith in Him and requires that we repent of our sins and follow Him. May God bless.

0bed said:

Keeping the law for salvation is the mistake the pharisees made. Jesus is God who is the promised Messiah of the New Covanent and salvation is through faith in Him and requires that we repent of our sins and follow Him. May God bless.

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Thank you for your post. But I would like to add a clarification.
I see no scripture that requires repentance specifically from sin in order to be saved. To repent from sin is to stop sinning. That is obedience to law. This amounts to the mixing of the two covenants. That is what leaven is.

However, we are required to change our minds. Repentance comes from "meta", and "noya", two Greek words that mean change (as in metamorphasis), and mind (as in paranoya). Turning to Jesus for salvation is a change of mind from unbelief to faith. This is the repentance that leads to salvation. Refer to Rom.10:9,10. No turning from sin mentioned.

But unless one sees his sin and understands his need so be rescued from it, then faith in Jesus will be meaningless anyway.

So if one humbles himself, he will receive grace. There are more than a few passages that confirm this. It is obvious that since God gives grace to the humble, and resists the proud, then repentance from pride into humility is the actual requirement for salvation by grace. Those who seek to be justified by their works have not yet done this. They are going about their life trying hard to turn from their sin for salvation. If this were actually possible, then the sacrifice of Jesus would have been unneccesary. No one can keep the law to its righteous requirement. There is none righteous.

Here is the truth revealed. There are some in this world who promote lawkeeping, insisting that we must keep all the law. They will acknowledge the sacrifice of Jesus for sin. But then some (not all) will pronounce the wrath of God for those who fail to keep all the law. This reveals their own heart, that they believe one must obey the law to avoid the wrath of God. No matter how you slice it, this is not salvation by faith. Even Jesus warned to beware the leaven of the law. When the keeping of law is mixed into the equation for salvation, it contaminates the covenant of grace through faith. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

So back to my original thought. I feel it is crucial that we clarify the word repent; that it does not mean to stop sinning....unless it actually literally says in a passage that one must repent from a sin. Rev.2:18 is an example of this. They were told to repent from their sexual immorality. But even then, Jesus did not tie that in with their eternal destiny. He rebukes and chastens those whom He loves.

Blessings, Howie

How do you say Howie

1 Kings 8:47 and if they have a change of heart in the land where they are held captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their conquerors and say, 'We have sinned, we have done wrong, we have acted wickedly';

2 Chronicles 6:37 and if they have a change of heart in the land where they are held captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captivity and say, 'We have sinned, we have done wrong and acted wickedly';

Ezekiel 14:6 “Therefore say to the people of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!

Ezekiel 18:30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.

Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offences you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways (repent) and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! (Repentance again)

Isaiah 59:20 "The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins," declares the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.

Jeremiah 31:19 After I strayed (sinned), I repented; after I came to understand, I beat my breast. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.'

Jeremiah 8:6 I have listened attentively, but they do not say what is right. No one repents of his wickedness, saying, "What have I done?" Each pursues his own course like a horse charging into battle.

Job 34:33 Should God then reward you on your terms, when you refuse to repent?

Job 36:10 He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil.

Matt 13:2. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Matthew 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,
In order to keep the law--you have to be a Jew--that law was not given to any but the descendants of Abraham.
Deu 5:1 Moses called together the people of Israel and said: Today I am telling you the laws and teachings that you must follow, so listen carefully.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made an agreement with our nation at Mount Sinai.
Deu 5:3 That agreement wasn't only with our ancestors but with us, who are here today.

It was made to those folks there at the time and to their descendants.

It went a way at the cross--all of it not a part of it but all of it went away--this is reason #2 that no man can keep the law today--
Oh you can try--but you cannot--neither could the Jews to whom it was given.

Those folks under the Mosaic law killed the son of God and God removed it. God is not going to look with favor upon anyone who trys it keep it today.
This is not a hidden secret, it is not a mystery--that covenant between man and God is no longer available.

You know I was not going to add this but it might over time prove helpful--Listen to what Jewish Christians had to say about all of this

Act 15:5 But some Pharisees had become followers of the Lord. They stood up and said, "Gentiles who have faith in the Lord must be circumcised and told to obey the Law of Moses."
Act 15:6 The apostles and church leaders met to discuss this problem about Gentiles.
You can pick up the story in acts 15 but here is their solution--we should pay attention to it today
Act 15:10 Now why are you trying to make God angry by placing a heavy burden on these followers? This burden was too heavy for us or our ancestors.
Act 15:11 But our Lord Jesus was kind to us, and we are saved by faith in him, just as the Gentiles are.
Act 15:19 And so, my friends, I don't think we should place burdens on the Gentiles who are turning to God.
Act 15:20 We should simply write and tell them not to eat anything that has been offered to idols. They should be told not to eat the meat of any animal that has been strangled or that still has blood in it. They must also not commit any terrible sexual sins.
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Now what also needs to be made clear--is that these folks lived the law--all of the law--not just parts of it--so for those who teach that it or parts of it are still for us today--might really want to spend some time studying this passage.

If they could not keep it--the law--who believes that they today can?

Richard 79408

0bed said:

How do you say Howie

1 Kings 8:47 and if they have a change of heart in the land where they are held captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their conquerors and say, 'We have sinned, we have done wrong, we have acted wickedly';

2 Chronicles 6:37 and if they have a change of heart in the land where they are held captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captivity and say, 'We have sinned, we have done wrong and acted wickedly';

Ezekiel 14:6 “Therefore say to the people of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!

Ezekiel 18:30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.

Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offences you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways (repent) and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! (Repentance again)

Isaiah 59:20 "The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins," declares the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.

Jeremiah 31:19 After I strayed (sinned), I repented; after I came to understand, I beat my breast. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.'

Jeremiah 8:6 I have listened attentively, but they do not say what is right. No one repents of his wickedness, saying, "What have I done?" Each pursues his own course like a horse charging into battle.

Job 34:33 Should God then reward you on your terms, when you refuse to repent?

Job 36:10 He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil.

Matt 13:2. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Matthew 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

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Greetings. Thank you for pointing these out. However, they do not contradict my post. Let's look at one of these:..Job 36:10..." He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil". If you will notice, it says "repent OF" This was my point. The context will usually if not always, reveal what it is that needs repenting from. Therefore the word itself does not automatically refer to sin, nor does it mean to quit sinning. It is like telling someone to drive. The question is...drive what? There are many things that can be driven. One can't just assume it is always a car. It may be a van, bike, truck, etc.

As well, there are many things that can be repented from or of. But I can't help but notice that all the references you shared come from the context of the old covenant of law. The covenant of grace did not begin until the death of Jesus, where God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (2Cor.5:19). Until that event, man was obligated to reconcile himself to God through his own effort. Thus, over and over we see the command for men to turn from their sin, their iniquity, and their evil ways. But as we have understood, this was never going to be sufficient for any man to produce justification or righteousness to God's satisfaction. It was a command that could never change the nature of any sinner.

On the day of penticost, as the people were witnessing a marvellous sign, hearing people praise God in their own tongue, people who previously had no ability to speak these languages...they asked " what could this mean"? Then Peter stood up and spoke to all in one common language (obviously). He told them about Jesus, whom they had rejected and killed, who was actually their Messiah, and had been raised from the dead. When they heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked " what shall we do"? Peter replied "repent and be baptized in His name for the remission of sin , and receive the Holy Spirit. Repent of what? What was the context? They had rejected Jesus. Now they were told to change their mind about Him and rather turn to Him for the remission of their sin.

It makes no sense whatsoever to proclaim that they were to repent of their sin if they were also being told how to get their sin removed. How do you turn from something that is not there? Sin is transgression of law. To quit sinning is the equivalent of keeping the law. Am I saying we shouldn't quit sinning? Am I saying it is o.k. to sin? Duhhhh, NO. What I am saying is that we are not required to keep the law in order to receive life, to be justified, to be given righteousness, to receive the Spirit (Gal.3:2), or to become a new creation. These are all gifts of grace, given freely by faith and definately apart from works of law. Therefore repentance from sin is not a requirement for salvation. There is a repentance that needs to take place. But in no context is it found that one can get or even keep these gifts by the fact that they are behaving themselves better.

Just keeping this in context, that's all. Thank you, and blessings in Him., Howie

williemac said:

Greetings. Thank you for pointing these out. However, they do not contradict my post. Let's look at one of these:..Job 36:10..." He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil". If you will notice, it says "repent OF" This was my point. The context will usually if not always, reveal what it is that needs repenting from. Therefore the word itself does not automatically refer to sin, nor does it mean to quit sinning. It is like telling someone to drive. The question is...drive what? There are many things that can be driven. One can't just assume it is always a car. It may be a van, bike, truck, etc.

As well, there are many things that can be repented from or of. But I can't help but notice that all the references you shared come from the context of the old covenant of law. The covenant of grace did not begin until the death of Jesus, where God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (2Cor.5:19). Until that event, man was obligated to reconcile himself to God through his own effort. Thus, over and over we see the command for men to turn from their sin, their iniquity, and their evil ways. But as we have understood, this was never going to be sufficient for any man to produce justification or righteousness to God's satisfaction. It was a command that could never change the nature of any sinner.

On the day of penticost, as the people were witnessing a marvellous sign, hearing people praise God in their own tongue, people who previously had no ability to speak these languages...they asked " what could this mean"? Then Peter stood up and spoke to all in one common language (obviously). He told them about Jesus, whom they had rejected and killed, who was actually their Messiah, and had been raised from the dead. When they heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked " what shall we do"? Peter replied "repent and be baptized in His name for the remission of sin , and receive the Holy Spirit. Repent of what? What was the context? They had rejected Jesus. Now they were told to change their mind about Him and rather turn to Him for the remission of their sin.

It makes no sense whatsoever to proclaim that they were to repent of their sin if they were also being told how to get their sin removed. How do you turn from something that is not there? Sin is transgression of law. To quit sinning is the equivalent of keeping the law. Am I saying we shouldn't quit sinning? Am I saying it is o.k. to sin? Duhhhh, NO. What I am saying is that we are not required to keep the law in order to receive life, to be justified, to be given righteousness, to receive the Spirit (Gal.3:2), or to become a new creation. These are all gifts of grace, given freely by faith and definately apart from works of law. Therefore repentance from sin is not a requirement for salvation. There is a repentance that needs to take place. But in no context is it found that one can get or even keep these gifts by the fact that they are behaving themselves better.

Just keeping this in context, that's all. Thank you, and blessings in Him., Howie

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If we do something wrong, then later we might realise we shouldn't have done what we did and we may even feel sorry for what we have done, if we do then that is repentance.

Then if we are sufficiently concerned about what we have done we might decide never to do it again, so if we robbed an old lady of her pension which is transgression of the law, then making a commitment never to do it again means we are keeping the law.

So repentance comes first and then we need to deal with our wrong doing. Just to set it in context. However it is not sufficient just to keep the law only, we need to go a step further and seek forgiveness which is all part of the repentant process.

Salvation comes by grace; spiritual maturity comes by understanding and obeying. If we were all spiritual mature upon receiving the mind of Yeshua we would all be perfect, obviously we are not!

So the question is by what standards do we mature by and I happen to think it is by the whole counsel of God.

Heb 4:12 ESV For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Act 20:26-27 ESV Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, (27) for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Saint said:

Salvation comes by grace; spiritual maturity comes by understanding and obeying. If we were all spiritual mature upon receiving the mind of Yeshua we would all be perfect, obviously we are not!

So the question is by what standards do we mature by and I happen to think it is by the whole counsel of God.

Heb 4:12 ESV For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Act 20:26-27 ESV Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, (27) for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

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The repentant thief on the cross was saved by the forgiving grace of Jesus Christ.

0bed said:

If we do something wrong, then later we might realize we shouldn't have done what we did and we may even feel sorry for what we have done, if we do then that is repentance.

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This may be true, but it does not define repentance. It is merely an example of it.

0bed said:

Then if we are sufficiently concerned about what we have done we might decide never to do it again, so if we robbed an old lady of her pension which is transgression of the law, then making a commitment never to do it again means we are keeping the law.

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Of course. However, this does not change the fact that at any time we can fail. One can keep all the law some of the time, and some of the law all of the time, but this has no bearing on our condition as sinners. It is merely an outward display of behavior.

0bed said:

So repentance comes first and then we need to deal with our wrong doing. Just to set it in context. However it is not sufficient just to keep the law only, we need to go a step further and seek forgiveness which is all part of the repentant process.

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As Christians, we have no need to seek that which has already been given. The passage that I feel has been misinterpreted and misapplied is 1John 1:9. Because of this, many go to God over and over again for forgiveness. However, forgiveness of sin and cleansing from all unrighteousness is a one time event, and the repentance that led to it is as well, a one time event. After that, if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, namely Jesus (1John 2:1), who is at His right hand ever making intercession for us. He sits as our High Priest and His sacrifice is perpetually applied to our lives. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins (Eph.1:7).

Salvation is so much more than the mere dealing with our wrong doing. Before redemption, we do what we do because we are what we are. The signifigance of Christianity is not just to make sinners behave better, as it was in the old covenant. It is rather to change us into new creatures. If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation (2Cor.5:17). As a new creation, I am no longer the same. But as one has phantom pains when losing a limb, we also have our flesh and all of its corruption and memory. We have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7). We are in the arena of learning about our new nature and learning how to walk according to it, putting off the old (Eph.4:22-24).

We will fail along the way. It is inevitable. In some cases we will be chastened. Then we need to repent of our behavior. But in all cases we are no longer known by God according to the old man. In His eyes, the old man is dead, crucified with Christ. Having begun in the Spirit, we are not to look back to the old ways of relating to ourselves and to God. We are not being made perfect by the flesh. However, Paul informed his readers that the law deals with the flesh. These are among the reasons we are no longer under the law or the penalty of the law. We are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells within (Rom.8:9).
Blessings in Him, Howie

williemac said:

This may be true, but it does not define repentance. It is merely an example of it.
Of course. However, this does not change the fact that at any time we can fail. One can keep all the law some of the time, and some of the law all of the time, but this has no bearing on our condition as sinners. It is merely an outward display of behavior.

As Christians, we have no need to seek that which has already been given. The passage that I feel has been misinterpreted and misapplied is 1John 1:9. Because of this, many go to God over and over again for forgiveness. However, forgiveness of sin and cleansing from all unrighteousness is a one time event, and the repentance that led to it is as well, a one time event. After that, if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, namely Jesus (1John 2:1), who is at His right hand ever making intercession for us. He sits as our High Priest and His sacrifice is perpetually applied to our lives. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins (Eph.1:7).

Salvation is so much more than the mere dealing with our wrong doing. Before redemption, we do what we do because we are what we are. The signifigance of Christianity is not just to make sinners behave better, as it was in the old covenant. It is rather to change us into new creatures. If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation (2Cor.5:17). As a new creation, I am no longer the same. But as one has phantom pains when losing a limb, we also have our flesh and all of its corruption and memory. We have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7). We are in the arena of learning about our new nature and learning how to walk according to it, putting off the old (Eph.4:22-24).

We will fail along the way. It is inevitable. In some cases we will be chastened. Then we need to repent of our behavior. But in all cases we are no longer known by God according to the old man. In His eyes, the old man is dead, crucified with Christ. Having begun in the Spirit, we are not to look back to the old ways of relating to ourselves and to God. We are not being made perfect by the flesh. However, Paul informed his readers that the law deals with the flesh. These are among the reasons we are no longer under the law or the penalty of the law. We are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells within (Rom.8:9).
Blessings in Him, Howie

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Yes, you are correct williemac and if I had been in conversation with you I would not have made the post I did. The reason I put it that way was because I had the feeling (whether right or not I do not know) that I was replying to a Calvinist.

0bed said:

Yes, you are correct williemac and if I had been in conversation with you I would not have made the post I did. The reason I put it that way was because I had the feeling (whether right or not I do not know) that I was replying to a Calvinist.

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Thanks. As much as I try to avoid labels, I would be considered an Armenian in that debate. Nice that we are on the same page here.

Dragonfly--greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

It is the "how" and the "way" God's laws work in each covenant that makes this work.

Those who died prior to Pentecost are not held by God accountable to the new Covenant law given at the Pentecost following the cross.

When God made the law at Mt. Sinai with Israel it was at that point that God no longer judged Israel by the law they had been under, God's moral law of sin and of death. Rather, God held the Jews accountable to the new Mosaic law and God did a couple of things.
He at that point judged the Jews by the new Mosaic law.
God at that point in time did not judge the Gentiles by the covenant law He gave to the Jews.


'The law' was a system of dos and don'ts for pleasing God and dealing with transgressions of the law. The things which have not changed, are the things we must do - like worship God, honour our parents, not covet things belonging to others, not commit sexual sins, not murder, not steal, not lie, not bear false witness - and not worship idols - have not changed. All these things are required of us today, as Christians - as non-Christians, even, except that non-Christians have not received the remedy for transgressions, the blood of Jesus Christ.


Next--you said
The 'burden' to which the apostles referred, were the many symbolic rituals which had become unnecessary since the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ, including physical circumcision and food of symbolic importance - basically the external 'work' of 'keeping the law' was now unnecessary they deemed, apart from those very basic points they chose.
My response--first I took some time to think about this--what you are claiming is not found in scripture. You cannot prove from the texts used that reference was only to the "symbolic rituals".

In Acts 15--these Christians had spent all of their lives under the law--they did not make the separation that men today wish to make over the law.
Evidently they understood some things we have to still work on. Like, the Jews did not have a two part law--it was all one.

And, since those folks were there, they were born as jews and converted to Christ--We need to believe them.

Let me give an example--What does the word "new" mean?

Paul in Romans 7:1-4 makes it clear that the Jew could not be married to any part of the Mosaic law and the law of Christ at the same time. As Christians, all of the Mosaic law was gone.

God has provided and if you care to look from Acts 2 through the end of Revelation--everything pertaining to salvation to Christian living as a Christian is given there.

As others have so aptly pointed out--that law--all of it is long Gone at the cross.
Richard79408

Hi Richard in sunny Texas, from a wet and galeblown UK

When God made the law at Mt. Sinai with Israel it was at that point that God no longer judged Israel by the law they had been under, God's moral law of sin and of death. Rather, God held the Jews accountable to the new Mosaic law and God did a couple of things.

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I have no idea why you think they had been any more under the law of sin and death before Sinai, than they were after Sinai.

Please could you explain that a bit more, keeping in mind
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. and

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passedupon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

He at that point judged the Jews by the new Mosaic law.

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Yes, now, instead of being able to practice idolatry in peace, like they had in Egypt, He was going to kill them for it. But I don't think that's what you are saying, so I'll wait for your reply.

God at that point in time did not judge the Gentiles by the covenant law He gave to the Jews.

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I know it looks like this, but we have to contend with these verses.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Hebrews 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God]. 7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

My point is, that the end of the Old Covenant is also the beginning of the New Covenant - the sacrifice of Christ. Israelites who had been keeping the OC - the shadow - were the first to enter the NC by faith, through the final sacrificial Lamb, their Messiah. And within a small number of years, Gentiles - who had never been excluded by God from becoming part of Israel, were also admitted to the NC by faith. Their sin problem had been exactly the same as the Israelites'.

My response--first I took some time to think about this--what you are claiming is not found in scripture. You cannot prove from the texts used that reference was only to the "symbolic rituals".

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By 'texts used' do you mean texts to which you have referred, or, do you mean there are no verses in the Bible to support my phrase 'symbolic rituals'. Please clarify?

In Acts 15--these Christians had spent all of their lives under the law--they did not make the separation that men today wish to make over the law.
Evidently they understood some things we have to still work on. Like, the Jews did not have a two part law--it was all one.

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I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

I have not suggested that the law is two part. I have suggested that the penalty aspect of the law was altered through Christ, and therefore, the things to do (rather than the punishments for transgressions), have remained unchanged in principle.

The law which was dealt with at the cross, was the law of sin and death.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I note that Paul had carefully made a distinction between his inner man, which was in agreement with his mind, and sin. There is a HUGE difference between his condition at that point, and the condition of the average person coming to Christ today from a non-Israelite background, and unfamiliar with the Old Covenant's perspective. We do not 'see' through their eyes, and most of us don't have such a well-cultured conscience as the average Israelite would have had. Anyway, my main point is this - that unless a Christian has an idea of what is contained in the law which is now supposed to be written in their hearts and minds by the Spirit, they will carry on behaving as if there is no law (lawlessly), and we see it all over 'Christendom'. But it simply is not true that now 'there is no law'. Nor do we guess at it. God has laid it out clearly through Moses, and none of the commands to do good in the Old Covenant, have been altered - except to make a few of them even stricter.

dragonfly, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,
I stated--
When God made the law at Mt. Sinai with Israel it was at that point that God no longer judged Israel by the law they had been under, God's moral law of sin and of death. Rather, God held the Jews accountable to the new Mosaic law and God did a couple of things.
to which you responded
I have no idea why you think they had been any more under the law of sin and death before Sinai, than they were after Sinai.

My response a fair observation--Lots of folks don't,

Let me try this way-- This passage does not refer to the Mosaic law but to God's moral law of sin and of death.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Short short story-- At birth man is born with God's Moral law of sin and of death.

Sin uses the law to destroy man's relationship with God.

Paul says he reached a point in his life when sin was able to use the law to separate him from his God.

From the garden account forward--God has held man accountable to this law and judged man by this law.

However, When God separated out Abraham and His descendants at Mt. Sinai--God gave them a new law and a new covenant. From Deut 5 we know this law did not go backwards or that itapplied to any but the Jews themselves andto their descendants.

Now, when the jews put Jesus on the cross--God removed that covenant from the Jews. Now, they do not believe it even to this day but the scripture{col 2:14} for one tells us this happened.

Now, at the cross both the jew and the Gentile are back under the same law that brings death and not life. In other words God has concluded all in unbelief--so that he could then save all who hear and obey the gospel of Christ.

This conditon lasts from the cross to the Pentecost after the cross some 50 days. The new Covenant thus allows all men to be redeemed not just the jews.

Richard 79408

Why is it that no one is able to separate the moral law from the ceremonial and the sacrifical as all are separate and given at different times. The cerimonial law started when Adam sinned and God Made skins for them to wear. Where did those skins come from? An animal had to be killed in order for them to have coverings for them selves. This is just part of the ceremonial law as in it sacrifices had to be made for every day and every Festival extra sacrifices had to be made. No, they are not listed there, but they are listed never the less in Exodus long before the sacrifical law is introduced as is the moral law. All three laws of God are listed in Exodus, but at different places. lumping them all together is a mistake and the reason that they are said to all have been hung on the cross, but Christ states differently in Matthew 5:17-18, as long as it is read in context.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

Sabitarian, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

The division of the moral from the ceremonial is a man made division not one that God has made. Jesus took the whole thing out of the way at the cross.
There have been many posts here illustrating that and further that the law is gone-You cannot keep matt 5:19 so that is going to sink every boat that crosses that passage.

Richard79408