Receiving The Revelation 16:15 Scripture

veteran · Apr 18, 2012

teleiosis said:
No, saying the Remnant would be some of the Church is without any evidence in the text whatsoever.

If you believe on Jesus Christ unto your Salvation, then I would not like you to have to go through the awakening shock of seeing our Lord Jesus coming when you had wrongly thought He was already here with the disguised "another Jesus" that's to come first.

That's part of Paul's warning Message in 2 Corinthians 11 about the "another Jesus". It's also his warning in 2 Thess.2 about the one coming to sit in the temple of God, and exalting himself over all that is 'called' God, or that is worshipped.

There are five foolish virgins that somewhat prepare to go meet the Bridegroom at the midnight hour (Matt.25). They won't be 'spiritual' virgins when Jesus returns to find they allowed themselves to be deceived into bowing to the false messiah that comes first. That's about the 'pseudo Christ' which our Lord Jesus also warned us about in Matthew 24:23-26, and with the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel. It's also the "another beast" He warned us about in Revelation 13:11-17.

Per Matt.25, the five foolish virgins go to 'buy' Oil, but can they really? NO! No can buy that Oil which represents The Holy Spirit. Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8 offerred money to buy The Holy Spirit, remember?

But that's what many in the Churches are being taught today, it's what some Churches on the Prosperity Ministry doctrines are all about! Little old ladies sitting in front of their TV sets writing checks to some fancy dressed professional mouth-piece asking for money, preaching about money, thinking about money, because those preachers are after... money. Our Lord Jesus called those a "hireling" in John 10; when the wolves come in those run, and don't care about His sheep.

Same kind of thing goes for ANYTHING pushed in Christ's Church that does not involve building the believer up in His Word of understanding so as to not be deceived by what's coming. How many Churches are actually preparing their congregations for the coming false messiah? Very few. What are those Churches doing instead?

1. They're instead teaching to 'fly away' to the first supernatural messiah that shows up, which will be the "another Jesus", the 'pseudo Christ', the "man of sin", "that Wicked", the "dragon", "that old serpent", the Devil. (See Ezekiel 13 about this).

2. Or they're preaching prosperity, materialism, world peace, internationalism, a joining with other religions of the world, Christ's Kingdom of the now, without Jesus' coming, etc.

3. Or they're preaching beautiful, sweet, loving messages that really 'sound' great to the ears, that make you feel real good for a day, but do nothing to prepare you to make a 'stand' for our Lord Jesus in the "evil day" of the coming "great tribulation", when false messiah will appear and command all to bow in worship to him.

4. Or they're preaching reliance upon another 'spirit' they claim is The Holy Spirit, which tells them they don't need to study God's Holy Writ, essentially that they've become their 'own' Christ, as if they have become 'gods' to themselves, which allows them to re-write God's Word anew (they think).

All we have to do is wait for our Lord Jesus' second coming to end the "great tribulation" and destroy that wicked one with the brightness of His coming, like Apostle Paul said in 2 Thess.2.

Zeph 3:8
8 Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
(KJV)

Why will The LORD be jealous in order to do that? What's going to occur on this earth just prior to Christ's coming that's going to make Him jealous? See Ezekiel 8. Some in His Church falling to bow in false worship to a false god, an idol even, is an abomination to Him, and the image of the beast false worship coming is going to make Him jealous! Jealous for whom? for Satan's servants? NO! For His people that allow themselves to be deceived by His enemies into bowing to the coming false messiah and that beast image of Rev.13, thinking that false one is Him! Our LORD said... WAIT for Him!

JLB · Apr 18, 2012

Here's the scary part -

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God Himself not only authorizes, but is empowering the working of this strong delusion.

All these cults playing games with who Jesus is and twisting the straightword truth the bible teaches about The Lord Jesus Christ.

High paid, big name preachers with their seeker friendly feel good, non offense, many paths to God message, for the purpose of filling big buildings full of people who keep giving big offerings having their ears tickled with smooth words of comfort are in for a rude awakening.

This principle was also established in the old testament as well.

Dueteronomy 13:1-5

1 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'--which you have not known--'and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

The fear of The Lord is a fountain of life, to turn one away from the snares of death. Proverbs 14:27

The Lord Bless you and keep you, JLB

teleiosis · Apr 19, 2012

veteran said:
If you believe on Jesus Christ unto your Salvation, then I would not like you to have to go through the awakening shock of seeing our Lord Jesus coming when you had wrongly thought He was already here with the disguised "another Jesus" that's to come first.

Jesus was mobile in the spiritual realm of the afterlife, going from Paradise where He and the thief on His right went on that day He died for our sins, to the place where the spirits imprisoned from the time of Noah were held to make an announcement to them as Peter wrote.

Jesus was mobile between Heaven and Earth after His Resurrection from death, traversing from one to the other at will at least three times in the Bible, literally popping in and out of our four-dimensional world of space and time so much so that He had to tell the Apostles He wasn't a ghost as written in the Gospel accounts and Acts.

Jesus will likewise be mobile after He comes. He will be able to trample out His Wrath in Israel on the Day of the Lord and then be in Heaven before Armageddon to be sent out with the standing ovation of the Great Multitude with His army: 144,000 - who go wherever He goes according to Rev 14:4. By saying "wherever the Lamb goes," the Bible indicates that Jesus is not stuck in any one place as well. That is the Scriptural evidence backing up this conclusion which is built on Scriptural evidence.

So: I do not fall for false Christs when I say I await the Day of the Lord when Jesus will come on the clouds to gather the Elect. The scene John described in Rev 14:14-16 is the same as what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse of Mt 24:29-31, which is the same as what Paul taught in his first ever, highly eschatological letter to the Thessalonians in 1Th 4:16-17.

In the linear narrative of Revelation chapters 13-16, which is one account, the Harvest of the Saints happens before the Wrath of God goes out with the avenging Angel who helps supply one of the three components of the Day of the Lord: blood.

In the linear narrative of Revelation chapters 13-16, which is one account, the Harvest of the Saints happens before the Wrath of God which culminates with the Bowls! This means that the first six Trumpets have already sounded! The Church is taken out of the is world prior to God's Wrath as indicated by John and as taught by Paul.

SO - by the time that Rev 16:15 rolls around, the only ones left are the Remnant who are being sheltered in the wilderness. In Isaiah 42:16, we see exactly how it is that these people will need to move at a moment's notice, and if they are not prepared, they are not "left behind," but instead are still included - however, they will have to bear their shame at being naked, for you see, you're not going to be able to "buy" clothes at this time.

So don't tell me that I'm going to be in for a rude shock, or that I will somehow mistake Jesus' return. I know full well from what Jesus has given us in Scripture the sequence-of-events which will presage His parousia so that - as Paul says - I will not have the Day of the Lord come upon me unawares! As Jesus said, I will know when the time is ripe - even though it is impossible for any man to know the Day that the Day of the Lord will come.

Succinctly put: the Day of the Lord will come after the one 'seven' begins. The Day of the Lord will come after the midpoint abomination is set up in the Temple - in the Holy Place. The Day of the Lord will come after shortened Great Tribulation.

The Day of the Lord will come before God's Wrath brings down desolations upon the wicked. The Day of the Lord will come before Armageddon. The Day of the Lord will come before the end of the one 'seven.'

veteran · Apr 19, 2012

teleiosis said:
Jesus was mobile in the spiritual realm of the afterlife, going from Paradise where He and the thief on His right went on that day He died for our sins, to the place where the spirits imprisoned from the time of Noah were held to make an announcement to them as Peter wrote.

Jesus was mobile between Heaven and Earth after His Resurrection from death, traversing from one to the other at will at least three times in the Bible, literally popping in and out of our four-dimensional world of space and time so much so that He had to tell the Apostles He wasn't a ghost as written in the Gospel accounts and Acts.

I agree with that for the most part, not with that ghost idea though.

Jesus will likewise be mobile after He comes

Click to expand...

. He will be able to trample out His Wrath in Israel on the Day of the Lord and then be in Heaven before Armageddon to be sent out with the standing ovation of the Great Multitude with His army: 144,000 - who go wherever He goes according to Rev 14:4. By saying "wherever the Lamb goes," the Bible indicates that Jesus is not stuck in any one place as well. That is the Scriptural evidence backing up this conclusion which is built on Scriptural evidence.

That kind of order isn't written. Our Lord Jesus told His disciples in the Book of John that He must depart in order to send The Holy Spirit Comforter, and He promised to go prepare a place for us. He did not promise to keep appearing on earth back and forth, because that's what The Holy Spirit is for instead.

The order per Revelation and all of God's Word =
1. the great tribulation and coming of the false messiah
2. Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord", to include all the following very quickly...
a. Armageddon and God's cup of wrath upon the wicked, false prophet, false messiah destroyed
b. all people on earth changed at the twinkling of an eye
c. we on earth gathered with the asleep resurrected saints to be with Jesus at Jerusalem
d. the start of Christ's Millennium reign with His elect priest and kings
a.1. Christ coming and going back and forth between Heaven and earth from the Millennium sanctuary on earth.
a.1.a tree of life and God's River re-established on earth flowing from the Millennial sancturary
b.1. the "nations" outside the gates of the holy city and milennium sanctuary on earth
3. end of the millennium, Satan loosed to tempt the nations one final time
a. God rains fire down from Heaven to destroy those who band with Satan to come up against "the camp of the saints" and "beloved city" that's on earth.
b. Satan cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are
4. Books opened, God's Judgment, those not found written in Book of Life cast into the lake of fire
5. God's Eternal Kingdom under Christ Jesus - the new heavens and a new earth.

So: I do not fall for false Christs when I say I await the Day of the Lord when Jesus will come on the clouds to gather the Elect. The scene John described in Rev 14:14-16 is the same as what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse of Mt 24:29-31, which is the same as what Paul taught in his first ever, highly eschatological letter to the Thessalonians in 1Th 4:16-17.

The coming false messiah (Antichrist) is prophesied to come PRIOR to Christ's second coming and our gathering to Him. If you don't know that per Scripture already, then you are already in danger of possibly falling away to the false messiah that comes first. That falling away event Paul called the "strong delusion", and God is sending it upon all those who refuse to listen to Him in His Word.

There are many... traps today to get one away from listening to Him in His Word about that, and God allows that as a test to see who will heed what He says, or heed what man says. Thus, it doesn't matter if you don't pay any attention to me; what matters is if we both pay attention to what God already foretold what would come to pass.

~~In the linear narrative of Revelation chapters 13-16, which is one account~~, the Harvest of the Saints happens before the Wrath of God goes out with the avenging Angel who helps supply one of the three components of the Day of the Lord: blood.

That linear narrative, one account idea has nothing to do with helping us to understand it. Christ is still giving us warning that His coming will be "as a thief" on that Rev.16:15 verse within the 6th VIAL timing. Paul already told us our Lord Jesus will come on the "day of the Lord" and "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5), and he was speaking of the time of our gathering to Him. In 2 Thess.2:1-2 Paul taught the same thing about the time of Christ's coming and our gathering, it's just that the KJV wording uses "day of Christ" instead of "day of the LORD". It actually is "day of the LORD" in the Greek of 2 Thess.2. Paul revealed there also that Wicked must come prior to that day of the Lord event and our gathering, so we will... be here when the false messiah comes to sit in that temple, proclaiming himself as God, and demanding that we all worship him as God.

~~In the linear narrative~~ of Revelation chapters 13-16, which is ~~one account~~, the Harvest of the Saints happens before the Wrath of God which culminates with the Bowls! This means that the first six Trumpets have already sounded! The Church is taken out of the is world prior to God's Wrath as indicated by John and as taught by Paul.

No it doesn't. Christ is still talking to His saints on earth at the Rev.16:15 verse, ON the 6th Vial timing.

Armageddon and the 7th Vial comes up next, which is the time of His return, our gathering, and the pouring out of God's cup of wrath upon Christ's enemies all at the same time. The Old Testament prophets like Isaiah and Zechariah confirms that order also, as does Rev.11 about the 6th and 7th Trumpet events. God's "two witnesses" are prophesying during the 1260 days tribulation which is within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, and that's also the 6th Vial timing. Their commissions include cutting off the rains, turning water into blood, raining fire down, just like the working of plagues upon Egypt in the days of Moses. Those plagues are upon the wicked, and is what the first 6 Vials are about. We will still be here on earth and go through all that, but... we'll be under our Passover Lamb Jesus Christ, and will not suffer those plagues, just as the children of Israel did not suffer those plagues in Egypt.

At the end of the 1260 days, the angel of the bottomless pit kills God's two witnesses in Jerusalem, leaving their dead bodies unburied in the street. The nations will throw parties and send each other gifts because of how those two witnesses tormented them. That's on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing. At the ending of that 2nd Woe, after 3 days a 1/2, the two witnesses arise and ascend to Heaven in plain sight. And then the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe comes 'quickly' after that, signalling the time of Christ's coming and our gathering, and the end of this world.

teleiosis · Apr 24, 2012

veteran said:
I agree with that for the most part, not with that ghost idea though.

How well do you know your Bible?
Luke 24:37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.

veteran said:
That kind of order isn't written.

No, that is what is written. The 144,000 go WHEREVER the Lamb goes. The Lamb is mobile after He comes.

veteran said:
Our Lord Jesus told His disciples in the Book of John that He must depart in order to send The Holy Spirit Comforter, and He promised to go prepare a place for us. He did not promise to keep appearing on earth back and forth, because that's what The Holy Spirit is for instead.

Once Jesus comes, He can come and go as He pleases just as He did after His Resurrection.

veteran said:
The order per Revelation and all of God's Word =
1. the great tribulation a~~nd coming of the false messiah~~

That is not the order of Revelation 13. FIRST the anti-Christ comes, then the talking image of him is erected, THEN two laws are put into effect which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever - because they wrongly, and unjustly, persecute to the point of death, those who rightly cling to faith in Christ Jesus.

veteran said:
2. Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord", to include all the following v~~ery quickly.~~..
a. A~~rmageddon and God's cup of wrath upon the wicked, false prophet, false messiah destroyed~~
b. ~~all~~ people on earth changed at the twinkling of an eye

The Day of the Lord coming of Christ Jesus spoken of by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, explained by Paul in 1Th 4 and as written by John on Jesus' Revelation in chapter 6-7 and chapter 14 - happens BEFORE any of the Wrath of God goes forth.

The Day of the Lord can be identified in the New Testament by its reference to the sun/moon/star event. Additionally, Paul calls it the "Day of Christ."
The Day of the Lord can be identified in the Old Testament by the same reference and the fact that such prophecy explicitly says it is the "Day of the Lord."

In the Olivet Discourse, we find that the Day of the Lord happens after the midpoint abomination and it happens after the SHORTENED Great Tribulation when the sun/moon/star event heralds the Day of the Lord which then comes as written, displayed with the Sign of the Son of Man (the scrolling of the sky revealing Jesus so that every eye will see) and then Jesus comes on the clouds to gather the Elect.

Paul explicitly says in 1Th 1:10 that we are rescued before God's Wrath.

In Revelation, the Day of the Lord is depicted as coming with the sixth Seal which results in the mustering of the 144,000 AND the delivery of the Great Multitude in Heaven BEFORE ANY of the Wrath of God goes forth from the Scroll - which is only opened once all seven seals have been broken (reference Rev 5 that only the Lamb can open the Scroll, which He does by breaking the Seals).

The battle at Armageddon is depicted AFTER the Harvest of Saints (shown again in Rev 14:14-16 as the same image used in Mt 24:31 and 1Th 4:16-17) AFTER the LAST of God's Wrath is spent upon the earth with the Bowl Judgments. This means the Trumpet Judgments happened between chapters 14 and 15 in Revelation. I consider the Bowl Judgments to be the third Woe which is never delineated in the broad overview of the end-times in Revelation chapters 4-11.

The battle at Armageddon is not mentioned in the Old Testament as any of the (two) battles which do happen on the Day of the Lord.
The battle at Armageddon does happen at the end of the one 'seven.'

The Day of the Lord precedes the battle of Armageddon by some months - (the first Woe takes five months by itself; other desolations can take longer).

veteran said:
c. we on earth gathered with the asleep resurrected saints to be with Jesus ~~at Jerusalem~~

First, the Dead in Christ (Paul's term for ordinary Christians who die normal deaths prior to the Day of the Lord) are raised first.
Second, the Bible never says we are delivered to Jerusalem. The Bible does say we are delivered to Heaven several times.

veteran said:
d. the start of Christ's Millennium reign with His elect priest and kings
a.1. Christ coming and going back and forth between Heaven and earth from the Millennium sanctuary on earth.
a.1.a tree of life and God's River re-established on earth flowing from the Millennial sancturary
b.1. the "nations" outside the gates of the holy city and milennium sanctuary on earth
3. end of the millennium, Satan loosed to tempt the nations one final time
a. God rains fire down from Heaven to destroy those who band with Satan to come up against "the camp of the saints" and "beloved city" that's on earth.
b. Satan cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are

You left out the 30 and 45 day periods between the one 'seven' and the Millennium.

veteran said:
4. Books opened, God's Judgment, those not found written in Book of Life cast into the lake of fire

According to Daniel 7:10, the books are opened before the fourth beast is slain.

Jesus’ mobility can be demonstrated from a sequence-of-events analysis of end-time prophecy:

He comes on the Day of the Lord: the sixth Seal.
He touches down on the Mount of Olives.
He summons the 144,000.
He then awakens the Dead in Christ - which is not on earth.
He then comes with them to gather up the Elect who are still alive and are left after the Great Tribulation.
He then delivers them as the Great Multitude into the barn of Heaven which is the third Heaven of God the Father's presence.
He then tramples out His Wrath upon the Land, specifically Israel, fighting two battles: one around Jerusalem and the other in the "Valley of Decision."
Between the Day of the Lord and the final battle of the one 'seven,' He shepherds the Remnant in the Wilderness.
He rallies His Army in Heaven before the final battle and is sent out with a great cheer from the Great Multitude.
He and the 144,000 are victorious at Armageddon.
The anti-Christ and the false prophet are judged in Heaven, ostensibly, Christ Jesus is there.
The fifth Seal Martyrs are made alive, completing the First Resurrection. Ostensibly again, Christ Jesus is there.
After the ingathering of the Remnant and the remaining Meek from the other nations on earth (less than 1% of our current world population) at Mount Zion, Jesus appears to them and the veil of Moses is lifted from the Jews, and they see their Messiah King as being the same Servant Messiah they had previously rejected out of hand.
Jesus will reign over them on the Earth, and we will reign in His stead.
Jesus continues to minister to His Bride in Heaven; there is no mention of intermingling of mortal and immortal people on earth during the Millennium passages in the Old Testament.

I can provide sequence-of-events proof for every bulletpoint presented from various linear narratives of end-time prophecy.

Saint · Apr 24, 2012

Hi teleiosis... you say Yeshua summons the 144000 and they follow him everywhere He goes; in your opinion who do you think the 144000 are, by this I mean are they in natural form or spiritual form? As well what is the significance of the sealing in chapter 7?

I would really enjoy your view on this.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Wow this formatting is difficult to understand :unsure:

teleiosis · Apr 24, 2012

The 144,000 are the firstfruits of the Harvest Rev 14:4. This means they are of the same sort as the Harvest: prior believers in Jesus.

As far as those who say they are Jews because of the listing of the twelve tribes of Israel, two points of rebuttal:

The listing of the twelve tribes are unlike ANY in the Bible, and John, as a Jew, knows his geneaology.
Furthermore, saying "Israel" does not mean "Jew." Paul makes the argument that not all of Israel are Isreali - Romans 9:6.

The 144,000 come from all over the world, just like the Elect. In fact, as firstfruits of the Harvest, I think they are part of the Elect: i.e., Christian.

They are mentioned in Isaiah 13:2-6:

2 Raise a banner on a bare hilltop, shout to them; beckon to them to enter the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded those I prepared for battle; I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath — those who rejoice in my triumph.
4 Listen, a noise on the mountains, like that of a great multitude! Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms, like nations massing together! The LORD Almighty is mustering an army for war.
5 They come from faraway lands, from the ends of the heavens — the LORD and the weapons of his wrath — to destroy the whole country.
6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

The Sealing of the 144,000 protects them from the desolations that follow.

While we are in the third Heaven of God the Father's presence as the Great Multitude (and some of us are still under the Altar in the Temple of God since the fifth Seal Martyrs count is not complete until the end of the one 'seven') it is the 144,000 who are with Jesus on the Day of the Lord passages such as Joel chapter 2.

As God does not need billions of Christians to take on hundreds of millions at Armgeddon, just as God did not need tens of thousands to take on the Midians with Gideon but only 300 - all Jesus needs is the 144,000.

veteran · Apr 24, 2012

teleiosis said:
How well do you know your Bible?
Luke 24:37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.

Note how that Scripture reads when it is placed with the other Scriptures that it belongs with...

Luke 24:36-41
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, "Peace be unto you."
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said unto them, "Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have."
40 And when He had thus spoken, He shewed them His hands and His feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, He said unto them, "Have ye here any meat?"
(KJV)

They knew He had died on the cross, because they saw. So in their minds, our Lord Jesus was dead in the traditional sense to them. So naturally they thought... they were seeing a 'spirit' (or ghost per your Bible version). Note how Jesus corrected their thinking though by showing them His hands and feet, and asking for meat to eat.

Luke 24:42-43
42 And they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And He took it, and did eat before them.
(KJV)

A ghost or spirit (per their traditions) can't do that. Thus our Lord Jesus revealed how His Resurrection Body retained the marks of His crucifixion, and also how the resurrection body can manifest on earth, even able to eat man's food. But it was still not the same kind of body they had, because Jesus suddenly out of nowhere, appeared right in the middle of them. Even back earlier in Luke 24, He appeared to them and they didn't recognize Him, yet when He was dining with them, He blessed the bread, broke it, and then handed it to them, and He suddenly disappeared right in front of them, and they then knew... it was Christ Himself.

That's how we are to study and learn The Scriptures of God's Word, noting all the little specifics of events as written, and understanding the bigger picture, not pulling a single verse out the context of the Scripture to use it for some other purpose, like to support a doctrine of men.

Saint · Apr 24, 2012

teleiosis said:
The 144,000 are the firstfruits of the Harvest Rev 14:4. This means they are of the same sort as the Harvest: prior believers in Jesus.

As far as those who say they are Jews because of the listing of the twelve tribes of Israel, two points of rebuttal:

The listing of the twelve tribes are unlike ANY in the Bible, and John, as a Jew, knows his geneaology.

Furthermore, saying "Israel" does not mean "Jew." Paul makes the argument that not all of Israel are Isreali - Romans 9:6.

The 144,000 come from all over the world, just like the Elect. In fact, as firstfruits of the Harvest, I think they are part of the Elect: i.e., Christian.

They are mentioned in Isaiah 13:2-6:

2 Raise a banner on a bare hilltop, shout to them; beckon to them to enter the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded those I prepared for battle; I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath — those who rejoice in my triumph.
4 Listen, a noise on the mountains, like that of a great multitude! Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms, like nations massing together! The LORD Almighty is mustering an army for war.
5 They come from faraway lands, from the ends of the heavens — the LORD and the weapons of his wrath — to destroy the whole country.
6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

The Sealing of the 144,000 protects them from the desolations that follow.

While we are in the third Heaven of God the Father's presence as the Great Multitude (and some of us are still under the Altar in the Temple of God since the fifth Seal Martyrs count is not complete until the end of the one 'seven') it is the 144,000 who are with Jesus on the Day of the Lord passages such as Joel chapter 2.

As God does not need billions of Christians to take on hundreds of millions at Armgeddon, just as God did not need tens of thousands to take on the Midians with Gideon but only 300 - all Jesus needs is the 144,000.

Thanks teleiosis for your thoughts, also I assume that by calling them firstfruits of the Harvest you are indicating they are translated? Also are the 144000 in Rev 14 the same group as Rev 7?

Sorry I'm so full of questions but I'm interested to see what you think on this

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

teleiosis · Apr 24, 2012

veteran said:
That's how we are to study and learn The Scriptures of God's Word, noting all the little specifics of events as written, and understanding the bigger picture, not pulling a single verse out the context of the Scripture to use it for some other purpose, like to support a doctrine of men.

The point is, despite your attempt to "teach" me how to read the Bible, is that Jesus "popped" into a closed room. My version uses "ghost." That was the reference I made.

The point is: Jesus is mobile between this world and the next and can appear suddenly like an apparition as He moves between Heaven and Earth at will.

Saint said:
Thanks teleiosis for your thoughts, also I assume that by calling them firstfruits of the Harvest you are indicating they are translated? Also are the 144000 in Rev 14 the same group as Rev 7?

I don't call them the "firstfruits," John is writing the Revelation of Christ Jesus; He calls them the firstfruits. The 144,000 are a unique set of people. The reference in the broad overview of the end-times in chapters 4-11 is the same people mentioned in the detailed account of the one 'seven' in chapters 13-16.

The events coming before the Harvest in chapter 14 precede the Harvest of that chapter. Likewise, the Revelation of Christ Jesus also lists the sealing of the 144,000 before the arrival of the Great Multitude in the sixth Seal. What we are seeing in chapter 14 up to verse 16 is the sixth Seal Day of the Lord Rapture. This matches the linear narrative Jesus gave in the Olivet Discourse during His first Advent when the Elect are gathered from the earth.

Notice in Isaiah, that the gathering of the Army uses the same poetic description for all over the earth that Jesus uses of the Elect in the Olivet Discourse. Since in agricultural terms, the firstfruits come before the Harvest, it is the same in both Revelation accounts. Likewise, both firstfruits and the harvest come out of the field of this world. The Firstfruits are special in what is brought to the Temple, and they are special in the end-times. Both are food fit to eat, as both are "saved" souls who believe in Christ. The 144,000 do not have to be brought to an understanding of who Jesus is like the Remnant must at the Millennium as Zechariah prophesizes; they already know Christ.

Saint · Apr 24, 2012

Thanks again teleiosis; we are pretty much in agreement; I have a couple of points of clarification but I'll approach these later, maybe in a PM because it really does not fit this discussion.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

veteran · Apr 25, 2012

teleiosis said:
The point is, despite your attempt to "teach" me how to read the Bible, is that Jesus "popped" into a closed room. My version uses "ghost." That was the reference I made

The matter still is... Jesus SHOWED THEM HE WAS NOT A GHOST. So wrongly assigning any ghost idea at all to that event is a wandering away from the Scripture's context and Message. It doesn't matter what they thought they saw at first. It matters how Christ revealed Himself to them, and He made CERTAIN... they understood. But all you did was to throw that ghost idea out there like it was supposed to mean something more, just because of the word existing in the verse. By your last statement above, you're still dwelling on that ghost word, showing how you've missed the main Point of Christ's lesson there.

The point is: Jesus is mobile between this world and the next and can appear suddenly like an apparition as He moves between Heaven and Earth at will.

Have you actually seen an 'apparition'? I doubt it. You may have THOUGHT you did, but I assure you, you have not, for there is no such thing as ghosts. But there are... angels and evil spirits that can appear on earth from the heavenly dimension as people (Hebrews 13:2; Saul and the witch of Endor - 1 Sam.28). The idea of 'ghosts' is an idea that men have dreamed up. When Jesus appeared to His disciples there, He was REAL, not an 'apparition'. When the two angels appeared to Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah, they were REAL, even as the Sodomites saw them with the image of man. When Elisha prayed asking for his servant's eyes to be opened so he could see the great army of angels prepared for battle against the host of Syria, those angels were REAL, not ghosts (2 Kings 6). When our Lord Jesus returns at His second coming with His angels, they will be REAL, not ghosts.

teleiosis · Apr 25, 2012

No, I am not "dwelling" on the ghost idea - what I am showing - from Scripture - is that Jesus was mobile between Heaven and Earth after His Resurrection and could literally "pop" into our plane of existence. This was so extraordinary that the only reference the Apostles had to His sudden appearance, literally out of thin air, was that of a ghost.

Jesus was not a ghost as He said... the fact that He mentioned He wasn't leads to believe there are such things are possible; however, I am not saying there are or there aren't - that's not the point of the reference or Scripture. The fact that you're harping on a tangential issue of your own making shows me that you can't be shown a new idea: Jesus' mobility between Heaven and Earth!

You are so locked into a "last day" one time period "coming" of Jesus that this new idea is threatening to you. You have a lot of emotional energy invested in your eschatology and so you tend to be overly combative over anything that would upset it. However, what you're arguing about here centering on "ghosts" is a red herring. What you really don't like is that once Jesus comes - in the flesh - He isn't locked into staying. Subsequent arrivals, like the one you reference in this thread topic, Rev 16:15 are not separate "comings" - because there only is ONE Day of the Lord arrival on the clouds - but just demonstrations of Jesus' power and authority to span Heaven and Earth at will.

veteran · Apr 25, 2012

teleiosis said:
No, I am not "dwelling" on the ghost idea - what I am showing - from Scripture - is that Jesus was mobile between Heaven and Earth after His Resurrection and could literally "pop" into our plane of existence. This was so extraordinary that the only reference the Apostles had to His sudden appearance, literally out of thin air, was that of a ghost.

Granted Christ suddenly appearing in their midst DID stir up old traditions about ghosts and gobblins they knew of from men. But that fear was not the real Lesson our Lord Jesus was showing us there. It's what they, and we, are to LEARN from that event which our Lord Jesus showed, that is important, not the idea of ghosts from men's ideas.

Jesus was not a ghost as He said... the fact that He mentioned He wasn't leads to believe there are such things are possible; however,...

We are not to believe in the idea of ghosts, period. And that's one of the Lessons our Lord Jesus was teaching us there. So, no, there's is no Biblical evidence from that event that proves ghosts are even a possibility.

I am not saying there are or there aren't - that's not the point of the reference or Scripture. The fact that you're harping on a tangential issue of your own making shows me that you can't be shown a new idea: Jesus' mobility between Heaven and Earth!

I'm not saying you believe in ghosts, doesn't matter to me even if you do. I was not the one who brought up that particular Scripture. You were, and you were even throwing it out to me as a test. But it's clear to see that you failed your own test in that.

You are so locked into a "last day" one time period "coming" of Jesus that this new idea is threatening to you. You have a lot of emotional energy invested in your eschatology and so you tend to be overly combative over anything that would upset it.

Now that certainly is the pot calling the kettle black! I'm merely contending for the Faith once handed to the saints, not my fault it doesn't follow the popular line of the doctrines of men. God's Word full strength never has been popular with the majority, not in the days of the prophets, not in the days of Christ's Apostles, and nor is it today. Staying in God's Word like how He said to do it will make you sure and certain within It, and not like a reed shaking in the wind with those who follow this doctrine of men, or that doctrine or men, etc., never having a solid foundation in The Word of God.

However, what you're arguing about here centering on "ghosts" is a red herring. What you really don't like is that once Jesus comes - in the flesh - He isn't locked into staying. Subsequent arrivals, like the one you reference in this thread topic, Rev 16:15 are not separate "comings" - because there only is ONE Day of the Lord arrival on the clouds - but just demonstrations of Jesus' power and authority to span Heaven and Earth at will.

I never said our Lord Jesus isn't going to go back and forth between Heaven and earth, as a matter of fact, I specifically stated that during His Millennium reign that is what He will... do (per the Book of Ezekiel). So who's pushing a "Red Herring" now? Humm...?

teleiosis · Apr 25, 2012

1. I do not think that "fear" is the lesson Jesus showed the Apostles with His sudden appearance. The real reason was the proof of His Resurrection.

2. "Belief" in ghosts, or spirits is not the point of the Bible. Samuel was called up by a medium for Saul. A ghost? It doesn't matter. 1Sa 28:13
The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"The woman said, "I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth."

3. Ghosts are your red herring; I used this instance in Luke to demonstrate Jesus' sudden appearance. My version of the Bible that I favor uses the word: ghost. You said it wasn't used; you were in error. However, in all of this, we're not talking about the people in Rev 16:15 - again.

4. All eschatology by definition is a doctrine of man because it is our study of it; that's what the -ology means in the word. The Word of God specifically says the Day of the Lord cannot be the last day of the one 'seven' because no one knows the Day. However, if it is the last day of the one 'seven' as most classical Post-Trib authors assign it: everyone will know that day will be the Day.

5. Well if you allow that in the Millennium, surely you can allow Jesus' mobility on Earth during the Wrath of God in the second half of the one 'seven' after He comes on the Day of the Lord - which happens at some unknown date after the shortened Great Tribulation.

veteran · Apr 29, 2012

teleiosis said:
1. I do not think that "fear" is the lesson Jesus showed the Apostles with His sudden appearance. The real reason was the proof of His Resurrection.

2. "Belief" in ghosts, or spirits is not the point of the Bible. Samuel was called up by a medium for Saul. A ghost? It doesn't matter. 1Sa 28:13
The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"The woman said, "I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth."

3. Ghosts are your red herring; I used this instance in Luke to demonstrate Jesus' sudden appearance. My version of the Bible that I favor uses the word: ghost. You said it wasn't used; you were in error. However, in all of this, we're not talking about the people in Rev 16:15 - again.

No such thing as ghosts. That word is simply an English word the KJV translators used in place of a Greek word for 'spirit' in the manuscripts. There are no ghosts, but there are demons and evil spirits per God's Word. The witch of Endor didn't conjure up the disembodied spirit of Samuel the prophet; she conjured up an evil spirit that assimulated the appearance of Samuel the prophet.

4. All eschatology by definition is a doctrine of man because it is our study of it; that's what the -ology means in the word. The Word of God specifically says the Day of the Lord cannot be the last day of the one 'seven' because no one knows the Day. However, if it is the last day of the one 'seven' as most classical Post-Trib authors assign it: everyone will know that day will be the Day.

And that's true, EVERYONE will know when that "day of the Lord" is here, for as written in Rev.1:7 all eyes will see Christ coming in the clouds. It won't be a mystery or secret at all. It's on that 'day' when Christ's future "thousand years" reign will begin. It's that "day of the Lord" event which will end the final "one week" of Daniel 9:27, i.e., the "great tribulation" period.

5. Well if you allow that in the Millennium, surely you can allow Jesus' mobility on Earth during the Wrath of God in the second half of the one 'seven' after He comes on the Day of the Lord - which happens at some unknown date after the shortened Great Tribulation.

It's not what I allow with Christ moving back and forth through the East Gate of the Millennium Temple during His future thousand years reign. It's what is written in the Book of Ezekiel. Christ won't be doing that during the tribulation time, nor that wrath time you speak of.

Christ will have nothing... to do with Jerusalem while the false messiah is there and the tribulation is going on. Jerusalem on earth is going to be in a state of spiritual desolation because of false messiah, and if Christ appeared at any... time on earth during that, it would mess with God's plan of using the false messiah to perform the "strong delusion" of 2 Thess.2. That's why Jesus won't make His appearance coming in the clouds until it's time to end... false messiah's reign of deception.

avoice · Apr 29, 2012

Its a parenthectal verse based in hebrew idom ..but hey lets throw out all preceeding chapters
and Zechariah 14:1 "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh and the fact that its says he comes as he left ...we will go with vetrans one verse

HeRoseFromTheDead · Apr 30, 2012

avoice said:
Its a parenthectal verse based in hebrew idom ..but hey lets throw out all preceeding chapters
and Zechariah 14:1 "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh and the fact that its says he comes as he left ...we will go with vetrans one verse

Zechariah 14:1 does not say THE day of the lord, but A day of the lord. Indefinite. Nor does it say anything about returning as he left.

teleiosis · Apr 30, 2012

veteran said:
No such thing as ghosts. That word is simply an English word the KJV translators used in place of a Greek word for 'spirit' in the manuscripts. There are no ghosts, but there are demons and evil spirits per God's Word. The witch of Endor didn't conjure up the disembodied spirit of Samuel the prophet; she conjured up an evil spirit that assimulated the appearance of Samuel the prophet.

Wow. This answer of yours displays not only your error and your ignorance but also your complete lack of discernment compounded by overwhelming hubris.

One: The word is 'elohiym in the Hebrew. This is Old Testament. It is not Greek!

Two: The word means: a: rulers, judges b: divine ones c: angels d: gods. In the context of the passage, since the medium is calling up a person, the translators substitute spirit of ghost which are loose synonyms of each other.

Three: The conjured Samuel, as a ghost or spirit in his soul form, is NOT an evil spirit as you try to dictate, but indeed IS Samuel. He goes onto to lecture Saul again with the same God-wisdom he had in life:

1Sa 28:16 Samuel answered, “Since the Lord has turned away from you and has become your enemy, why are you asking me? 17 The Lord has done exactly what He said through me: The Lord has torn the kingship out of your hand and given it to your neighbor David. t 18 You did not obey the Lord and did not carry out His burning anger against Amalek; therefore the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will also hand Israel over to the Philistines along with you. Tomorrow you and your sons will be with me, and the Lord will hand Israel’s army over to the Philistines

You cannot show yourself worthy to teach in small things, therefore, you have nothing to teach me about Bible prophecy - sergeant, dismissed.
Captain, USAF.

avoice · Apr 30, 2012

HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Zechariah 14:1 does not say THE day of the lord, but A day of the lord. Indefinite. Nor does it say anything about returning as he left.

Sorry I assumed everyone would have read this and know how Christ left Acts 1:9-11 and therefore understood my referance ..
In fact these are the very last words of Christs ministery of the first coming, I thought they would be common knowledge.
There is only one return of the Lord At the 7th trump .to the Mt of Olives just as he left ..It occurs
After the tribulation. Its after the tribulation that Christ returns. However its before the 7 vials of his Wrath
The bowls/vials are poured out on Satan his wicked group .... And there are 7 bowls of Gods wrath not one. And Zec 14 is about the Lords return ..The day of the Lord is his return its also the 7th trump ...

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