Receiving The Revelation 16:15 Scripture

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Retrobyter

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Shalom, HeRoseFromTheDead.

My authority is based in indisputable fact; truth is its own authority. If it's not the truth, dispute the facts. If you can't dispute the facts, why don't you believe the truth?

By what authority do you decide that one part of verse 5 cannot be separated from the other part? The original writings were written without verse, paragraph, or chapter designations. Who are you to say what Zechariah intended? When the evidence clearly shows that one version of scripture is true and another false, it behooves us to follow what is true. Clinging to man's tradition in fear and a closed mind (as you are doing) will be to your detriment.



Typically, people who make statements like this are too afraid to directly address the facts themselves. Blanket characterizations are so much easier for cowards.



I realize that facts don't mean anything to a closed mind.

Hmmm.... "Cowards?" "Closed mind?" And, people who attack the person instead of the argument are out of steam in a debate! (Ad hominem arguments do not become you.)

I've addressed the facts. I've no doubt that they have found what they wanted to find to throw allegory-minded Christians off track and deny the possibility that Zechariah 14:1-10 could be and will be literally fulfilled when Yeshua` returns as promised. They will do whatever they can to balk and thwart the arguments of believers and "missionaries" to re-interpret the prophecy of Z'kharyahu to their own agenda. They would choose not to be honest in their "research" over allowing the "missionaries" to have a leg to stand on in a correct understanding of Scripture!

Take research with a grain of salt. All the human research and findings in the world do not add up to a hill of beans when they contradict the Word. Furthermore, the Hebrew of that passage is quite clear! It should NOT be abused by those who would re-write it to fit their agenda, like our politically-correct thinkers are attempting to do with our history books! Such hypercriticism is detrimental to the understanding of Scriptures. Not only should one NOT re-write the Scriptures to ... say ... suggest that Jonah could not have been swallowed by a whale, nor should they re-write the Scriptures to suggest that Yeshua` will not cleave the mountain to form a valley!
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Hmmm.... "Cowards?" "Closed mind?" And, people who attack the person instead of the argument are out of steam in a debate! (Ad hominem arguments do not become you.)
I've addressed the facts. I've no doubt that they have found what they wanted to find to throw allegory-minded Christians off track and deny the possibility that Zechariah 14:1-10 could be and will be literally fulfilled when Yeshua` returns as promised. They will do whatever they can to balk and thwart the arguments of believers and "missionaries" to re-interpret the prophecy of Z'kharyahu to their own agenda. They would choose not to be honest in their "research" over allowing the "missionaries" to have a leg to stand on in a correct understanding of Scripture!

Take research with a grain of salt. All the human research and findings in the world do not add up to a hill of beans when they contradict the Word. Furthermore, the Hebrew of that passage is quite clear! It should NOT be abused by those who would re-write it to fit their agenda, like our politically-correct thinkers are attempting to do with our history books! Such hypercriticism is detrimental to the understanding of Scriptures. Not only should one NOT re-write the Scriptures to ... say ... suggest that Jonah could not have been swallowed by a whale, nor should they re-write the Scriptures to suggest that Yeshua` will not cleave the mountain to form a valley!

How does one even respond to such idiocy?
 

veteran

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Hey veteran do you understand the reaping ? after the reaping in Chapter 15 there is no flesh ...you are just making up things to make your wrong point. You are intentionally saying what isnt said to confuse those not studied enough to reconize what you are doing. Your ego is beyond measure.

Making what up? You're crazy rant is unwarrented!

I don't suppose you read Saint's post about fleeing southward into the desert to Bozrah that he's been taught, instead of heeding the Zech.14 and Acts 1 Scripture of how our Lord Jesus returns to this earth (and how we're gathered to Him per Mark 13:27 by the angels He sends).


Christ returns at 7th trump first thing he does is send out his angels to gather the Elect ..his feet touch down on the Mt of Olives it splits into ...
There is nothing new under the sun ,,
the fact there has been a quake there before on the Mt ...does not fulfill Zec.14 that just ignorace.

YEP! And I AGREE with that. Our Lord Jesus will descend from Heaven with a shout, on the 7th Trumpet, send His angels after us and His feet will literally... touch down upon the Mount of Olives. So what's your problem?

It's a lot of the Jews here that don't agree with us on that, so far here. I'm not the one who pushed that idea of Zech.14 being already fulfilled! That was 'HeRoseFromTheDead'. You need to really... read my posts again, ESPECIALLY the last section of it!


The next time we see Christ is Mt Zion Reaping the Multitude.
Some he reaps some an angel reaps into wrath ...WHICH HASNT OCCURED YET.
Where does God say he pours all 6 vials out at once ? Why did he bother to number them ... he could have just written it as chapter ... You add to the word ..you use a verse out of context to mislead its parenthetical in nature.

Now that stuff that Christ comes to gather us prior to His wrath that HAPPENS on the "day of the Lord" is a doctrine men, and I will never agree on that one!
 

teleiosis

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The Last Trumpet is NOT the seventh Trumpet. That is the simpleton's equation to the end times. Scripture shows they are not the same.
 

JLB

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Revelation 10:7

7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.


Seventh Trumpet hasn't sounded yet, as of this verse.
 

teleiosis

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You're assigning a meaning to the mystery of God which is not stated and is refuted by other Scripture.

The Day of the Lord with its attendant rescue of the few remaining Elect who are still alive hasn't come yet either, and the Day of the Lord comes before ANY of the seven Trumpets of God's desolations are sounded by the seven Angels.

God sounds the Last Trumpet; specifically, Jesus.
 

Saint

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You're assigning a meaning to the mystery of God which is not stated and is refuted by other Scripture.

The Day of the Lord with its attendant rescue of the few remaining Elect who are still alive hasn't come yet either, and the Day of the Lord comes before ANY of the seven Trumpets of God's desolations are sounded by the seven Angels.

God sounds the Last Trumpet; specifically, Jesus.

teleiosis...in your opinion how long does the Day of the Lord last?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob
 

teleiosis

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All associated events that Bible prophecy lists with the Day of the Lord can be accomplished in one Hebrew day which starts at nightfall.
- the effects of the First Trumpet/Day of the Lord Wrath will affect the Earth for months. The Day of the Lord is the beginning of the end for the wicked.

The Day of the Lord is preceded by the sun/moon/star event. That also entails a sequence of events which can begin in the daylight hours of the day before the Day of the Lord.
  • An earthquake to shake things up.
  • The sun going dark at noon.
  • In addition, three Angels tell the world that their end is near. This is why the Kings of the Earth hide and cower in fear.
  • Many are added to the rolls of the Elect with the Gospel message of the first Angel.
Then at night,
  • The moon is reddened not giving "its" light
  • - and with the sign of the Son of Man, the scrolling of the sky, a celestial fireworks begins with falling "stars," a meteor shower.
The Day of the Lord events include:
  • Jesus' coming on the clouds of Heaven descending to earth as He left in a dazzling celestial fireworks show as our four-dimensional world is opened by a dimensional rift to reveal a little bit of Heaven.
  • The touchdown at the Mount of Olives, splitting it in two. (Some of the Remnant Jews flee through this cleft)
  • The mustering of the 144,000 from all over the world.
  • The awakening of the Dead in Christ - which occurs not in this world.
  • Back in this world: the continued scrolling of the sky around the world - in the evening it will be light. Another contrast of opposites.
  • The sweeping Rapture from around the world with Jesus and the resurrected souls from Paradise on the clouds.
  • The delivery of the Great Multitude to the third Heaven of God the Father's presence.
  • In the morning, bodies are found flung around everywhere: the "exchanged" bodies of the Elect left behind because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom. This answers "where" we will go and why carrion birds are involved. Those involved in the Rapture do not die though, but they leave lifeless bodies behind.
  • The opening of the Scroll with the last Seal being broken...
  • Blood and Fire from the First Trumpet - two elements of the Day of the Lord Wrath. (Mountains will "smoke" too.) The daylight hours begin and God's Wrath falls.
  • Jesus trampling out His Wrath in the "Land," - Israel.
  • The invasion of Jerusalem from Mount Zion, the newly split Mount of Olives (through the East Gate)
  • The occupation of the Temple and the elimination of those Jews in Jerusalem who sided with the forces of evil
  • Another battle south of Jerusalem, in the Valley of Decision, which scholars have identified with Jehoshaphat and is near Bethlehem. This battle may be as a rear guard action to protect those from Jerusalem who are fleeing to the east, and then south to the wilderness to join those from Judea who left previously with the Gog/Magog invasion of Israel which brought the King of the North to encamp around the Holy Mountain: the Temple Mount before the midpoint abomination is revealed.

I can supply Bible verses later; right now, I have to get on with my day.
 

avoice

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How does one get into thrown Gods Wrath ?


[sup]17 [/sup]Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

[sup]18 [/sup]And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.”[sup]19 [/sup]So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

They thrown into it by an angel, they do not walk into it. you are NOT even appointed to it ...
1Th 5:9 You are sent there for your choice to take the Mark of the beast.

Now if we read the previous verses of chapter 14 you find Christ has reaped his own ...

There can be no wrath poured out until after Christ and his angels return for the reaping, gathering, harvest of the earth .. And if anyone says differnt they can not read ....Only after the reaping are the 7 SEVEN vials of GODS WRATH prepared to be poured out

Rev15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.
Now anyone saying that Christ is not here before his 7 vials of wrath are poured out needs to explain how his wrath can be poured out before the angel cast them into it.

Remember chapters were added by men the manuscripts do seprate chapters this one continus read.
Now if one wants to claim its not the Lords day or Day of the Lord when he gathers his church ...reaps them Harvests the earth ...so be it but they are making a distiction not written.
 

veteran

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How does one get into thrown Gods Wrath ?


[sup]17 [/sup]Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

[sup]18 [/sup]And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.”[sup]19 [/sup]So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

They thrown into it by an angel, they do not walk into it. you are NOT even appointed to it ...
1Th 5:9 You are sent there for your choice to take the Mark of the beast.

Now if we read the previous verses of chapter 14 you find Christ has reaped his own ...

There can be no wrath poured out until after Christ and his angels return for the reaping, gathering, harvest of the earth .. And if anyone says differnt they can not read ....Only after the reaping are the 7 SEVEN vials of GODS WRATH prepared to be poured out

Rev15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.
Now anyone saying that Christ is not here before his 7 vials of wrath are poured out needs to explain how his wrath can be poured out before the angel cast them into it.

Remember chapters were added by men the manuscripts do seprate chapters this one continus read.
Now if one wants to claim its not the Lords day or Day of the Lord when he gathers his church ...reaps them Harvests the earth ...so be it but they are making a distiction not written.

That's not how the flow of the Revelation Scripture reads, but that is how men's doctrines teach it.

The battle of Armageddon occurs on the last 7th Vial, and it is the day of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him. That's the same battle Ezekiel was given to describe about the armies coming out of the northern quarters upon the mountains of Israel. That is the day of God's vengeance and "day of the Lord". It is the day our Lord Jesus described in Luke 21 about the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

The 6th Vial is when the false messiah is active, along with the false prophet, in order to prepare... that great northern army to come up against Jerusalem on the last day of this world.


Rev 16:12-17
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.


Notice on that 6th Vial the waters of the Euphrates is dried up. What's that about? Per God's promise of the land to Israel, the Euphrates river was to be Israel's northern border. The idea of it being dried up is about those kings of the east crossing it, i.e., crossing Israel's symbolic northern border. It is a metaphor for the coming of Satan and his hosts, and is linked with the events of the 6th Trumpet.

Rev 9:13-19
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, "Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates."


That's the loosing of the locust army of Joel upon God's peoples, and to draw the kings in prep for the battle of Armageddon. It is the loosing of Satan and his host upon this earth for the tribulation timing per Rev.12:7-17.


Rev.9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

These are prepared to slay a third of men by a specific method described further below. And they are prepared to do that at time specifically set, at a certain hour, day, month, and year.


Rev.9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.


Oh, man... what a terrible sight that will be! No, not really, which the next verses will reveal why. It's because they destroy by what comes out of their... mouths. What comes out of one's mouth???


Rev.9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
(KJV)

What KIND of death happens by what comes out one's MOUTH? A death by bombs and bullets? No. A SPIRITUAL DEATH from DECEPTION. That's where their power to destroy is, with what comes out of their mouths, i.e., using words!


That's what that locust army loosed on the 6th Trumpet is to do, with the drying up of the river Euphrates, the symbolic border between God's people and Satan's host. Now let's see if the 6th Vial events follows that 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe Message...


Rev.16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.


The locust army of Rev.9 has fire and brimstone coming out of their MOUTHS to destroy, and their power is in their MOUTHS. Does that 6th Vial event match that working? Yes, even with the working of miracles by those unclean spirits and devils! And their main purpose???

To go forth unto the kings of the earth, AND the WHOLE WORLD, to gather them for the last battle of this world, Armageddon. That's is STILL "great tribulation" timing there. Christ has not come yet at that point in time, which is why He then says this...

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
(KJV)


Then boom, the 7th Vial occurs with the battle of Armageddon, the time of Christ's coming to defeat that Wicked one with the brightness of His coming (2 Thess.2). That's when we are gathered to Christ Jesus. That's when the "day of the Lord" is. That's when God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked. That is the last day of this present world.
 

avoice

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Yes Vetran I have read how Arnold murray teachs it and has for many years this isnt your doctrine its his....
I dont agree. A neither does scripture.

You are creating a contradiction that does not exist ...and then attempting to explain the contradiction you created.
All because you refuse to accept what is said.
So dont tell me Im following men you are following a mans teaching.
You deny the word to make a S.Chapel doctrine work for you.

No one of flesh and blood enters Gods wrath until cast into by the angel. Deny it all you want scripture proves you wrong.
[sup]19 [/sup]So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Gods wrath starts with the 1st vial and you are adding to the word to say differnt ...The problem is not the scriptures its you trying to solve your own created contradiction. And insulting all who wont buy into your doctrine.That you received from a man.
 

veteran

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Yes Vetran I have read how Arnold murray teachs it and has for many years this isnt your doctrine its his....
I dont agree. A neither does scripture.

You are creating a contradiction that does not exist ...and then attempting to explain the contradiction you created.
All because you refuse to accept what is said.
So dont tell me Im following men you are following a mans teaching.
You deny the word to make a S.Chapel doctrine work for you.

No one of flesh and blood enters Gods wrath until cast into by the angel. Deny it all you want scripture proves you wrong.
[sup]19 [/sup]So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Gods wrath starts with the 1st vial and you are adding to the word to say differnt ...The problem is not the scriptures its you trying to solve your own created contradiction. And insulting all who wont buy into your doctrine.That you received from a man.


There's no contradiction with what I covered in that Revelation Scripture. And it's certainly not a doctrine that some man like Arnold Murray created.

The reason why you've left... the Scripture already in this argument is because you have no Scripture basis to prove the order you've learned from some minister or pastor that you listen to.


The 'day' of Christ's coming is per Apostles Paul and Peter "as a thief" on "the day of the Lord" (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). Christ still giving His servants that warning of His coming "as a thief" on the 6th Vial in Rev.16:15 is SOLID Biblical proof that His coming is on that next Vial, the 7th.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

That's not how the flow of the Revelation Scripture reads, but that is how men's doctrines teach it.

The battle of Armageddon occurs on the last 7th Vial, and it is the day of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him. That's the same battle Ezekiel was given to describe about the armies coming out of the northern quarters upon the mountains of Israel. That is the day of God's vengeance and "day of the Lord". It is the day our Lord Jesus described in Luke 21 about the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

The 6th Vial is when the false messiah is active, along with the false prophet, in order to prepare... that great northern army to come up against Jerusalem on the last day of this world.


Rev 16:12-17
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.


Notice on that 6th Vial the waters of the Euphrates is dried up. What's that about? Per God's promise of the land to Israel, the Euphrates river was to be Israel's northern border. The idea of it being dried up is about those kings of the east crossing it, i.e., crossing Israel's symbolic northern border. It is a metaphor for the coming of Satan and his hosts, and is linked with the events of the 6th Trumpet.

Rev 9:13-19
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, "Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates."


That's the loosing of the locust army of Joel upon God's peoples, and to draw the kings in prep for the battle of Armageddon. It is the loosing of Satan and his host upon this earth for the tribulation timing per Rev.12:7-17.


Rev.9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

These are prepared to slay a third of men by a specific method described further below. And they are prepared to do that at time specifically set, at a certain hour, day, month, and year.


Rev.9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.


Oh, man... what a terrible sight that will be! No, not really, which the next verses will reveal why. It's because they destroy by what comes out of their... mouths. What comes out of one's mouth???


Rev.9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
(KJV)

What KIND of death happens by what comes out one's MOUTH? A death by bombs and bullets? No. A SPIRITUAL DEATH from DECEPTION. That's where their power to destroy is, with what comes out of their mouths, i.e., using words!


That's what that locust army loosed on the 6th Trumpet is to do, with the drying up of the river Euphrates, the symbolic border between God's people and Satan's host. Now let's see if the 6th Vial events follows that 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe Message...


Rev.16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.


The locust army of Rev.9 has fire and brimstone coming out of their MOUTHS to destroy, and their power is in their MOUTHS. Does that 6th Vial event match that working? Yes, even with the working of miracles by those unclean spirits and devils! And their main purpose???

To go forth unto the kings of the earth, AND the WHOLE WORLD, to gather them for the last battle of this world, Armageddon. That's is STILL "great tribulation" timing there. Christ has not come yet at that point in time, which is why He then says this...

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
(KJV)


Then boom, the 7th Vial occurs with the battle of Armageddon, the time of Christ's coming to defeat that Wicked one with the brightness of His coming (2 Thess.2). That's when we are gathered to Christ Jesus. That's when the "day of the Lord" is. That's when God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked. That is the last day of this present world.

I've noticed a slight problem with your scenario that you should consider:

I believe that you're not right about the battle of Har-Megiddown being the time of the Messiah's coming. Although you are not alone in this assumption that you've made, there are other things that happen in between. One must consider WHERE these events take place and the geography of Isra'el. YHVH said that He will also go to Idumea first for He will take vengeance against Edom:

Ezekiel 25:8-14
8 Thus saith the Lord God; Because that Moab and Seir do say, Behold, the house of Judah is like unto all the heathen;
9 Therefore, behold, I will open the side of Moab from the cities, from his cities which are on his frontiers, the glory of the country, Beth-jeshimoth, Baal-meon, and Kiriathaim,
10 Unto the men of the east with the Ammonites, and will give them in possession, that the Ammonites may not be remembered among the nations.
11 And I will execute judgments upon Moab; and they shall know that I am the Lord.
12 Thus saith the Lord God; Because that Edom hath dealt against the house of Judah by taking vengeance, and hath greatly offended, and revenged himself upon them;
13 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; I will also stretch out mine hand upon Edom, and will cut off man and beast from it; and I will make it desolate from Teman; and they of Dedan shall fall by the sword.
14 And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord God.
KJV


Amos 1:11-12
11 Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he did pursue his brother with the sword, and did cast off all pity, and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever:
12 But I will send a fire upon Teman, which shall devour the palaces of Bozrah.
KJV

Isaiah 34:1-17
1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.
15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.
16 Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.
KJV


Isaiah 63:1-6
1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
KJV


And, if you follow the course of events in Zechariah, you will find that He is already taking vengeance when He comes to the towns of Y'hudah (Judah; Judaea). Then, He will route the enemies out of the towns of Y'hudah BEFORE He even comes to Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)! So, those who say that "He descends to the mount of Olives and splits it" are also wrong in that assumption. He has already descended before He ever comes to Har haZeitiym; however, He does set foot on the mount.

After He has cleaned out Yerushalayim, He then chases them across "the mountains of Isra'el," and as an advocate for the northern tribes of Isra'el, you should already know that these are the mountains north of Yerushalayim. Just look at the prophecies to the mountains of Isra'el in Ezekiel.

It's not until He has routed them all the way north to the Valley of Jezreel (Gei-Yizre`'eel) southeast from Haifa, under the watchtower of Har-Megiddow, the Mountain of Megiddo or Tel-Megiddo, that the "battle of Armageddon" occurs.

This all doesn't happen in a single day! It will take time to complete!

A question to consider is this: When does the "Great Tribulation" end and the "Wrath of God" begin? Are they indeed different? or Are they the same? Are they just two different ways to describe the same period? And, if they are the same, how long does that time period last?
 

veteran

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....
....

And, if you follow the course of events in Zechariah, you will find that He is already taking vengeance when He comes to the towns of Y'hudah (Judah; Judaea). Then, He will route the enemies out of the towns of Y'hudah BEFORE He even comes to Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)! So, those who say that "He descends to the mount of Olives and splits it" are also wrong in that assumption. He has already descended before He ever comes to Har haZeitiym; however, He does set foot on the mount.

Firstly, we should not get confused with Bible prophecy about God's first judgment upon the nation of Edom which originally existed south of Judea, and now is no more. That's a lot of what God's pronounciations are in Ezekiel 25 and Ezekiel 35.

Under Judas Maccabaeus the chief city of Idumea (Edom) was taken (around 160 B.C.), and the Idumean Antipater was appointed procurator by the Romans, and that's where the Idumean Herods started in rule over Judea in prep for Christ's first coming. John Hyrcanus subdued the country of Edom around 125 B.C. , and persuaded the Idumeans to become Jews (religious Jews).

Then the Idumeans disappeared as a nation below Judea. Those old lands of Edom now belong to the nation state of Israel, with Jordan on the east.

Thus LATER PERIOD Bible prophecy meant about Idumea is both figurative and literal as to the Edomite PEOPLES, and not the lands, which does nothing to change the Zechariah 14 prophecy of Christ's coming to set foot upon the Mount of Olives. That's why Isaiah 63 is FIGURATIVE for the events of Christ's second coming and judgment upon the IDUMEANS which have crept in among Judah's stay, and claim to be Jews, but are not. If I recall per the Jewish historian Josephus, even one of the chief priests during the time of Christ's first coming was actually of Idumean birth. (The position of priest unto Israel per God's commandment was only to be of the sons of Aaron and Levi.)

So, I hope you realize that idea of fleeing to Bozah is a doctrine of men thing (probably an idea from Idumean Jews), and it could be very dangerous to heed it.
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, veteran.

Of course not. However, you STILL have the fact that the MESSIAH HIMSELF in vengeance is said to come from Botsrah (Bozrah) spattered in blood! Isaiah 63:1-6ff has not happened, yet! How in the world could that be "figurative and literal as to the Edomite PEOPLES?" It's just literal.

I have never claimed that anyone should "flee to Bozrah," although I know that's how the writers of the Left Behind series interpreted it, when they suggested that believers would take refuge in Petra. Quite to the contrary, Yeshua` will take on that mission ALONE! It even angers Him that He IS fighting it alone, and His fury fuels His vengeance!

Sure the Edomites (or Idumeans) have "disappeared as a nation," but don't think for a moment that their descendants are extinct! And, who knows how they might figure in during this final campaign against Isra'el? Just as the descendants of the P'lishtiym (the Philistines) are among those who call themselves "Palestinians" today and are once again back in their land (the Gaza Strip), so likewise the descendants of Edowm are also among the "Palestinians" south of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), near if not in their ancestral lands. No, the course of events still flows from south to north.
 

veteran

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Shabbat shalom, veteran.

Of course not. However, you STILL have the fact that the MESSIAH HIMSELF in vengeance is said to come from Botsrah (Bozrah) spattered in blood! Isaiah 63:1-6ff has not happened, yet! How in the world could that be "figurative and literal as to the Edomite PEOPLES?" It's just literal.

I have never claimed that anyone should "flee to Bozrah," although I know that's how the writers of the Left Behind series interpreted it, when they suggested that believers would take refuge in Petra. Quite to the contrary, Yeshua` will take on that mission ALONE! It even angers Him that He IS fighting it alone, and His fury fuels His vengeance!

Sure the Edomites (or Idumeans) have "disappeared as a nation," but don't think for a moment that their descendants are extinct! And, who knows how they might figure in during this final campaign against Isra'el? Just as the descendants of the P'lishtiym (the Philistines) are among those who call themselves "Palestinians" today and are once again back in their land (the Gaza Strip), so likewise the descendants of Edowm are also among the "Palestinians" south of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), near if not in their ancestral lands. No, the course of events still flows from south to north.

If you pay attention to my previous post then you will see how I realize what happened to the Idumeans, and that's one of my main points. They crept in among Judah's stay in Judea, and God's vengeance upon them is about them as a people, and no more about a judgment upon the lands south of Judea which used to be old Edom.

Since many of the Idumeans became Jews, then all one need look is where all Judah had been scattered and they're included, even to the area of Russia from which many Jews have been returning to the holy lands. And that's exactly the point of the following Scripture...


Ezek 36:1-5
1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, "Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:
2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, 'Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession'":
3 Therefore prophesy and say, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;
5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of My jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed My land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
(KJV)

And thus the deeper... meaning behind the following Scripture for the end...

Isa 34:1-6
1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For My sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of My curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
(KJV)

That future event of judgment upon the Idumeans per the above Isaiah 34 Scripture is what gives us the meaning of the following Isaiah 63 Scripture...

Isa 63:1-4
1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in Mine heart, and the year of My redeemed is come.
(KJV)

That's about God's future judgment upon the people of Idumea (Esau), and that event of judgment will include Hamongog and Megiddo too, for it's about the day of His wrath upon His enemies on the last day of this present world.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

Well, the last day of this present world is yet at least a thousand years off! And, "Hamown-gowg" is at the BEGINNING of the thousand years!

Ezek. 39:9-16
9 “‘Those living in Isra’el’s cities will go out and set fire to the weapons, to use as fuel — the shields, breastplates, bows, arrows, clubs and spears; they will use them for fire seven years; 10 so that they will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut down any from the forests; because they will use the weapons for fire. Thus they will plunder those who plundered them and rob those who robbed them,’ says Adonai Elohim.
11 “‘When that day comes, I will give Gog a place there in Isra’el for graves, the Travelers’ Valley, east of the sea; and it will block the travelers’ passage. There they will bury Gog and all his horde, and they will rename it the Valley of Hamon-Gog [horde of Gog]. 12 It will take the house of Isra’el seven months to bury them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 Yes, all the people of the land will be burying them; they will become famous for it. It will be a day for me to be glorified,’ says Adonai Elohim. 14 ‘They will then pick men for the continual duty of going through the land and burying with the travelers the corpses still lying out on the ground, in order to cleanse it; they will begin their search after the seven months. 15 As they go through the land, if anyone sees a human bone, he will put a marker next to it until the gravediggers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon-Gog. 16 Moreover, “Hamonah” [its horde] will be the name of a city. Thus will they cleanse the land.’
CJB

Thus, one is not about the other.

One of the fallacies to which I've noticed that many fall prey is the thought that the "end of this age" is at the arrival of the Messiah. It's not. It's AFTER He has defeated all of His enemies, which doesn't occur until Yeshua` has finished His reign as King of Kings, turning over that title to His Father, and Yeshua` continues as simply the King of the Jews.

There IS an end of His reign as "King of kings," or "World Emperor." However, He will continue as "King of the Jews" forever.

The following passages are at the BEGINNING of the Millennium (the first 1000 years of His reign):

Luke 19:12-27
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
KJV

Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
KJV

Psalm 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his Anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
KJV


The following passages are about the Millennium itself, the first 1000 years of His reign as He grows to become a world-wide Emperor, the "King of kings," just as Nebuchadnezzar was called, the character of the Millennium, and the END of the Millennium:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV


Rev 20:1-21:5
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
KJV


Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

But, the following passage is strictly about what happens AFTER the Millennium:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV


Therefore, the world will not end tomorrow or even 3.5 years from now. The world as we know it, the second earth and its second "heaven" or sky, will not end until AFTER the Millennium. However, after the Fire, there is yet to be a THIRD EARTH and its THIRD "HEAVEN" OR SKY, wherein dwelleth righteousness and upon which the New Jerusalem - Yerushalayim haChadashah - will land as its new capital city, and our Master Yeshua` will continue His reign as the King of Isra'el.
 

veteran

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When Jesus returns and gathers His Church, and pours out His cup of wrath upon the earth, that event will end this present world age, even though His Millennium reign that immediately begins right after that is considered by many to be a part of this present world. How we can be sure of this is because of what Peter said about the "elements" of man's works being burned off the earth on "the day of the Lord", which is the time of Christ's return.