Please stay away from the pope!!!

Writings attributed to the apostles circulated amongst the earliest Christian communities. The Pauline epistles were circulating in collected forms by the end of the 1st century AD. Justin Martyr, in the early 2nd century, mentions the "memoirs of the Apostles," which Christians (Greek: Χριστιανός) called "gospels," and which were considered to be equally as authoritative as the Old Testament. (wikipedia)

Abraham did not recieve a huge amount of information from
God so transmission was probably verbal. This
is ultimately guess work on our part, if there was
written info it may have been lost. No one has any
real way of knowing, it is assumed that is was oral.

During the second century churches were communicating
with one another. These churches were quoting from Paul's
epistles, so obviously they all had access to written forms
of the New Testament letters. This we know.

In 313, the struggles of the Early Church were lessened by the legalisation of Christianity by the Emperor Constantine I. In 380, Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire by the decree of the Emperor, which would persist until the fall of the Western Empire, and later, with the Eastern Roman Empire, until the Fall of Constantinople. During this time (the period of the Seven Ecumenical Councils) there were considered five primary sees according to Eusebius: Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria, known as the Pentarchy. (wikipedia)

So the New Testament letters and early forms of the canon were in circulation way before
the Catholic Church had gained any traction as far as authority is concerned.

Angelina said:

Abraham could not read the Gospels because Jesus had not died yet but he certainly foreknew the coming Messiah and the gospel message of salvation by faith.

John 8
[sup]56 [/sup]Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
[sup]57 [/sup]Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
[sup]58 [/sup]Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Abraham did not reject God, that is why God has not rejected the Jewish nation.
The Lord said regarding Abraham...
[sup]19 [/sup]For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.” Gen18.

Shalom!!!

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There were no written gosepls during Abraham's time. Everything was preached to Abraham. I agree that Abraham did not reject God, and he knew about the coming Messiah. Of course, Jesus (who is God) knew Abraham. Abraham and the Jewish people knew about the Messiah.....they just did not know that the Messiah was Jesus Christ. When Christ came, many of the Jewish people rejected Him and didn't believe that He was the Messiah. Today, the Jewish people are still waiting for the Messiah. They don't know that He already came.

aspen2 said:

Ok. That is hard enough for people of above higher intelligence - what about people with average or lower intelligence? 3/5 of the population? The Holy family, themselves would be unable to discern the truth from intellectual study.

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Ummm. You're currently speaking to someone with no post school study...someone who really didn't do very well at school either.
It doesn't take a huge amount of intelligence to read the bible...it only takes persistence, desire to study God's word...oh yeah, and The Spirit!!

grandma dolittle said:

Wait a minute! Where in the Bible does it talk about purgatory or the Pope's position?
I would like to read it?

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That a particular word is not found in scripture is not the point.

The concepts for both are in scripture.

grandma dolittle said:

Paul said in 1Timothy2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ. For that reason, I have a problem with praying to Mary and the saints. Paul plainly says that only Jesus can go to the Father for us

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It depends on what we understand by mediation

Paul asked others to pray for him
Paul prayer for others.
Was he wrong?

grandma dolittle said:

When we cannot pray, Paul says in Romans 8:26 that the Holy Spirit makes intersessions for us, not a priest.

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Does Romans 8:26 say that no-one else can intercede for us?

Are all the prayer warriors here on earth wasting their time?

grandma dolittle said:

.Jesus says in Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth:for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Therefore, I have a problem calling a priest "father."

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In scripture there are many examples of people calling others father both in the Old and the New Testaments. Here are a few examples from the NT - 1Cor 4:15, 1Jn 2:13, Acts 7:2,

Jesus refers to Abraham as father in Lk 16:24, as does James in Jas 2:21. Indeed in the same speech Jesus uses the word fathers (Mt 23:32).

Therefore we have to look deeper to see what Jesus meant by “call no man father”

We could go into all of these, and there are probably threads on them already, but each would be a long argument.

xBluxTunicx82 said:

JESUS' WORD IS THE FINAL AUTHORITY!

Aspen, you continually attack EVERY single thing that you disagree with, which must be Christianity in general. You always seek to put out your 'opinion' and then accuse imply ignorance on others who defend their faith. Granted, NOONE knows all truth, but I can see a snake when I see one. I'm watching you, and you should really consider just 'passing over' the things you don't agree with.

There is always at least one on every forum....

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Since when is a question an attack? Why not provide a verse instead of crying about my post?

Rach said:

Ummm. You're currently speaking to someone with no post school study...someone who really didn't do very well at school either.
It doesn't take a huge amount of intelligence to read the bible...it only takes persistence, desire to study God's word...oh yeah, and The Spirit!!

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Sorry Rach,

You are vastly more educated than most of the people who lived before you.

aspen, your question is irrelevant to Christianity. Hence the name CHRISTianity. We follow Christ, His teachings, and attempt to understand it. I pointed out in defense of another that you constantly slander others and point out various 'flaws' in their posts. Perhaps people come here with the intent of good fellowship, and then when they feel enlightened, here comes little miss whiney pants about how their doctrine is so much more correct that that persons.

xBluxTunicx82 said:

aspen, your question is irrelevant to Christianity. Hence the name CHRISTianity. We follow Christ, His teachings, and attempt to understand it. I pointed out in defense of another that you constantly slander others and point out various 'flaws' in their posts. Perhaps people come here with the intent of good fellowship, and then when they feel enlightened, here comes little miss whiney pants about how their doctrine is so much more correct that that persons.

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I see - you have no verse.

I understand Christianity - why do you make the Bible your idol? Is your religion BIBLEianity?

xBluxTunicx82 said:

aspen, your question is irrelevant to Christianity. Hence the name CHRISTianity. We follow Christ, His teachings, and attempt to understand it. I pointed out in defense of another that you constantly slander others and point out various 'flaws' in their posts. Perhaps people come here with the intent of good fellowship, and then when they feel enlightened, here comes little miss whiney pants about how their doctrine is so much more correct that that persons.

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I think aspen’s question was very relevant.

You don’t get authority by reading a book. You get authority by being given it by someone who has it.

Jesus didn’t give authority to a book. He gave it to the apostles.

He said “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” (Lk 10:16).

Yes, and the children of the devil slid their way behind our pulpits and have been corrupting the Word ever since. We are also to live by every word that comes from the mouth of God. So if say, this federal Zionist Occupied Government decided that Bibles were full of hate and need to be banned(as Obama suggested two years ago) then on what will you base your faith? Ideas? Your remembrance of what you learned? God doesn't speak to everyone, only His literal children, and they have to be called to even hear it.

xBluxTunicx82 said:

Yes, and the children of the devil slid their way behind our pulpits and have been corrupting the Word ever since.

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Are you referring to the Reformation?

No, Im talking about the Pharisees... the Khazar people adopting Judaism in 700 AD. The false 'jew' that our Messiah warned us about. The protestant Reformation was the point in history when people decided they had enough of being told what to believe by a man in a fancy suit.

xBluxTunicx82 said:

No, Im talking about the Pharisees... the Khazar people adopting Judaism in 700 AD. The false 'jew' that our Messiah warned us about. The protestant Reformation was the point in history when people decided they had enough of being told what to believe by a man in a fancy suit.

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Ah right. They found the truth too restricting and preferred to make up their own doctrines and been doing it ever since.

Exactly, as is common among many people today. Rather than accept the word and the law for what it is, people would rather justify themselves in scripture. Almost always, those who attack the truth aren't attacking it because it is false, rather because it condemns them. Its human nature to want to blame other people for our personal problems. This is why we all fall short...

A lot of these tares have been sewn in our seminaries, where our 'pastors' are taught the word as interpreted by an antichrist. Its been a long time since Ive met anyone that was called to be a preacher, most just make the choice to go to school nowadays. God said He would raise up His own pastors to feed His sheep, I dont think many of the seminaries are teaching the whole bible. Just the parts that wont get them in trouble with the left wing media and liberal politicians!

xBluxTunicx82 said:

Exactly, as is common among many people today. Rather than accept the word and the law for what it is, people would rather justify themselves in scripture. Almost always, those who attack the truth aren't attacking it because it is false, rather because it condemns them. Its human nature to want to blame other people for our personal problems. This is why we all fall short...

A lot of these tares have been sewn in our seminaries, where our 'pastors' are taught the word as interpreted by an antichrist. Its been a long time since Ive met anyone that was called to be a preacher, most just make the choice to go to school nowadays. God said He would raise up His own pastors to feed His sheep, I dont think many of the seminaries are teaching the whole bible. Just the parts that wont get them in trouble with the left wing media and liberal politicians!

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xBlux, in case you missed this verse in the Bible where Jesus gave us His, as you wrote, I quote :" God said He would raise up His own pastors to feed His sheep," I give you His Words - " Jesus said to Simon Peter , " Feed my lambs...... feed my sheep ... feed my sheep " [ John 21: 15-17 ] The Words of Command To Jesus' first earthly substitute shepherd of the only one earthly Church until Jesus the Real Shepherd returns.

I didn't miss that at all, but before you go any further who are His sheep?

Matt 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Matt 10:5-6 "[sup] [/sup]Jesus sent out these twelve, charging them, Go nowhere among the Gentiles and do not go into any town of the Samaritans; [sup] [/sup]But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
So again, using two witnesses as prescribed by scripture(there are more as well to back this up) but again, who exactly are His sheep?
Yes, He told us there were other sheep not of this fold and they were to be grafted in. But who did He come for?


And as far as pastors go, Jeremiah 16:16 teaches this "[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks."[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Our fishers have failed, as they no longer teach the true word of God, they have effectively 'caught' all the men they can. Now is the age of the 'hunter', the one who seeks out the true believer wherever they may be without fear of negativity from others. [/background]

xBluxTunicx82 said:

I didn't miss that at all, but before you go any further who are His sheep?

Matt 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Matt 10:5-6 "[sup] [/sup]Jesus sent out these twelve, charging them, Go nowhere among the Gentiles and do not go into any town of the Samaritans; But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
So again, using two witnesses as prescribed by scripture(there are more as well to back this up) but again, who exactly are His sheep?
Yes, He told us there were other sheep not of this fold and they were to be grafted in. But who did He come for?


And as far as pastors go, Jeremiah 16:16 teaches this "[background=rgb(249,253,255)]Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks."[/background]
[background=rgb(249,253,255)]Our fishers have failed, as they no longer teach the true word of God, they have effectively 'caught' all the men they can. Now is the age of the 'hunter', the one who seeks out the true believer wherever they may be without fear of negativity from others. [/background]

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I agree ,your 'fishers' have failed, but how could they lose something that they never had [ being 'ordained' the bible way ] The properly ordained pastors of Christs only Church have the protection from Jesus that they can never possibly teach a corrupt Church doctrine because of His promise [ Matt.16; 18 ] That is why Jesus only left us with His One True Apostolic Authoritive Teaching Church.

But that 'One True Apostolic Authoritive Teaching Church' as you put it is not so easily found. Many are called, but few are chosen! So anywhere I see a tremendous following, I stay away from. It goes against scripture to think that where the ears are tickled that truth will be found. I agree, the teachers of the true Word of God teach line upon line and precept upon precept. Never even having to resort outside of scripture to provide witness and narrative for everything in there. It is one complete teaching in itself, and many of these larger churches either add their own spin on things, or take away drastically from it. In some instances, they do both, many hardly even open their bibles.

Protestant churches are probably just as corrupt as the pagan theologies taught by the Roman Catholic Church these days. I know, if you are a Catholic I do not mean to offend, but there is so much about Catholicism that is not to be found in scripture.
The protestant churches in America today teach easy believeism. They skip the stones so to speak, touching only on either what they want or what they are told by the government.. Afterall, to be 501(c) 3 tax exempt status, you must bend your knee to mans law.

The true church is in the people, the body of Christ. Not in a building, or defined by anyone leader whether it be the pope or Billy Graham. Only Christ can show someone the truth.

xBluxTunicx82 said:

I didn't miss that at all, but before you go any further who are His sheep?

Matt 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Matt 10:5-6 " Jesus sent out these twelve, charging them, Go nowhere among the Gentiles and do not go into any town of the Samaritans; But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

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That was an early “practice mission”. But later he told the apostles:

“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations” (Mt 28:19)

“Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.” (Mk 16:15)

“you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”(Acts 1:8)