Please stay away from the pope!!!

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xBluxTunicx82

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A 'practice' mission? So you suggest that Christ was unsure of what He was doing when He was manifest? I'm sorry, not meaning to offend just curious as to why you say this. He and the apostles were pretty adamant about reaching the Lost Sheep. There were several 'general' epistles that were written to everyone outside of Israel, but the majority of the epistles are written directly to 'dispersed Israel'.
 

Mungo

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A 'practice' mission? So you suggest that Christ was unsure of what He was doing when He was manifest? I'm sorry, not meaning to offend just curious as to why you say this. He and the apostles were pretty adamant about reaching the Lost Sheep. There were several 'general' epistles that were written to everyone outside of Israel, but the majority of the epistles are written directly to 'dispersed Israel'.

A training mission or confidence building mission if you prefer.

We find this recorded in Luke 8. After their mission they come back and tell Jesus what they have been doing.

Later he enlarges the mission (Lk 10) and they come back excited at their successes.

It's not until before he ascends to heaven that Jesus gives them their full mission.
 

grandma dolittle

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That does not rule out the fact that the ancient Hebrews had oral traditions which were passed down from generation to generation. Even when Abraham encountered God who told him to leave his country, his kinsman and his Father's house. Is this not written in the book of Genesis 12? We know that the first 5 books were written by Moses. Where do you think he got his information about Abraham from???

Abraham did not need a book to guide him because he was speaking to God directly...



That is incorrect...

Galatians 3:8
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”

The bible is a historical record and written testimony to the Hebrew and also the Gentile nations of his promise to send his Son and the promised Holy Spirit and redeem what had been lost in the garden...We are at the end of that promise and can look back in awe of God's grace and mercy toward us and all who believe in Jesus by faith...


Shalom!!!
Angelina,
Well said. Perhaps a history of the Hebrew people will be needed for some to understand that the oral tradition of the Jews was a sacred thing and was carefully repeated and everone learned it, especially the priests. The Bible is a sacred thing written by the same people who would not have dared to write something and attribute it to God if he had not inspired them to do so. Also, the letters the disciples and Paul wrote was passed from church to church to be read. These same letters became part of the New Testiment. Moses also wrote down the things God instructed him to write. These were all written long befor the fourth century. I am in awe of our God and how his will is done. He has protected the Holy Word from the likes of Hitler and Stalin. He can and will protect his people and words from others.

But that 'One True Apostolic Authoritive Teaching Church' as you put it is not so easily found. Many are called, but few are chosen! So anywhere I see a tremendous following, I stay away from. It goes against scripture to think that where the ears are tickled that truth will be found. I agree, the teachers of the true Word of God teach line upon line and precept upon precept. Never even having to resort outside of scripture to provide witness and narrative for everything in there. It is one complete teaching in itself, and many of these larger churches either add their own spin on things, or take away drastically from it. In some instances, they do both, many hardly even open their bibles.

Protestant churches are probably just as corrupt as the pagan theologies taught by the Roman Catholic Church these days. I know, if you are a Catholic I do not mean to offend, but there is so much about Catholicism that is not to be found in scripture.
The protestant churches in America today teach easy believeism. They skip the stones so to speak, touching only on either what they want or what they are told by the government.. Afterall, to be 501© 3 tax exempt status, you must bend your knee to mans law.

The true church is in the people, the body of Christ. Not in a building, or defined by anyone leader whether it be the pope or Billy Graham. Only Christ can show someone the truth.

Amen. Christ said there would be few to enter in. The falling away of our chruches is sad, but prophecy fullfiling. Getting to heaven is a individual thing between us and God and does not include a priest or pope, or even a minister. My soul is too valuable to trust it with anyone but Jesus.
 

xBluxTunicx82

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A training mission or confidence building mission if you prefer.

We find this recorded in Luke 8. After their mission they come back and tell Jesus what they have been doing.

Later he enlarges the mission (Lk 10) and they come back excited at their successes.

It's not until before he ascends to heaven that Jesus gives them their full mission.
Sorry for misunderstanding you, sometimes it is hard to get the exact point across through text.

Although, from start to finish, the bible is predominately about the Israel people, the true bloodline descended from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. Before I go any further, i am devout in my belief that the Israelite people were the very Saxon ancestors that settled Great Britain and the Americas. "In Isaac shall thy seed be called" Isaacs sons-isaacsons-saxons

It is also affirmed in scripture, and i will be happy to provide examples but it will be quite lengthy as there is a lot to cover, that Adam was not the first man, but the originator of the race that would birth jacob/Israel. Adam's very name means 'ruddy, to show blood in the face'.

Now, this is by no means a 'supremacy' doctrine, on the contrary, now I am even more responsible for the upkeep of Gods Law and Word. Those of western european origin are not merely Gentiles, God did bring salvation to the world, but its important to know who the Israelites really are.

Israel was formed in the womb to be a priest among nations. And it is truly Jacobs descendants that have delivered the Gospel to the 4 corners of the earth. And until their falling away, Jacobs children were a blessing to the rest of the world, now we are cursed for our backslidding from Gods perfect law. People tend to twist the meaning of this into some racist, anti-semitic mumbo jumbo filled with backwoods, redneck cult leaders no better than David Koresh.. Even though, the very people condemning us, are the same ones that condemn Christ to death!
 

neophyte

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After reading and studying the early Christian Church and the writings of both Jewish and Christian writers again and again I recognized in ancient Christian texts the rites and doctrines of the Catholic Church today. The oldest texts—the "Didache",St. Clement of Rome, To the' Corinthians' take us back to the lifetime of the apostles. Others were written shortly afterward: the seven letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch, the letter of St. Polycarp to the" Phillippians' and the eyewitness account of Polycarp’s martyrdom. In those documents we encounter the churches established by the apostles—in Rome and Corinth, Antioch and Ephesus and Smyrna—and we learn that those churches were hierarchical and liturgical, centered on the Eucharist, and already concerned with the proper transmission of Tradition and exercise of authority. They delight in the identity they share as they speak of the "Catholic Church"—a body that is united, though it was multicultural and worldwide.
 

rainbows

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Acts 20

27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.

28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit
has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Who were the wolves?

Who drew the disciples away?
 

revturmoil

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Listen hear me out Siblings. There are many false prophets on this earth, and the pope is the biggest one. He has so many people fooled. They bow down to the pope and they "Honor" him, but they really are worshipping him and they dont know it. I once had a dream about the pope. He was coming out of his little window with a sniper rifle, Snatching away Christians with his sniper rifle. Please listen to me. The pope is a false prophet, and he is leading people to think he is important. He is not supossed to have people bow down to him . Jesus Christ is the only one !!!

I would say stay away from Thomas Ice, Ed Hindson, and Timothy Lahaye and the like!

Maybe you should do a little research about what a false prophet really is.

But as far as idolatry and bowing down goes...Millions of Muslim's bow toward a black rock in Mecca 5 times a day.

I'm a Catholic and I don't agree with all of their doctrine. After all they are historicist and I'm a futurist! I often disagree with the Protestants and

must say that I disagree with nearly all of the prophetic theories taught by today's illustrious bible prophecy experts!
 

neophyte

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Acts 20

27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.

28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit
has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
.
Who drew the disciples away?

Rainbows you ask-

Who were the wolves? Certainly not the Apostles or their successors/ true believers of the Apostolic Teaching Those chosen apostles [ nucleus of Christ's Church, His only Church ] and continuing with all future successors are under the protection of the promise of Jesus. The wolves came after many centuries with Satan's influence on members of Christ's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church at the time of the Reformation. Jesus tells us that His Church will contain both "good and bad" members as foretold in { Matt. 13: 24-30 ]. Even if Jesus promised to protect His Church with its doctrine Jesus never said He would protect its members from corruption, as we can see even to this very day. The Church that Jesus founded was always based only on its apostles/successors and its doctrine/ teachings have never corrupted or changed from Pentecost 1st century , many of its members have been corrupt but not ever any of its teachings, because all Teachings are protected by Jesus [ Matt 16: 18 ] Man with his free-will left His Church and invented different churches from the True Church that Jesus left for "all" of us
.
Who drew the disciples away? Not applicable- true disciples have never left His Church.
 

grandma dolittle

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That a particular word is not found in scripture is not the point.

The concepts for both are in scripture.



It depends on what we understand by mediation

Paul asked others to pray for him
Paul prayer for others.
Was he wrong?



Does Romans 8:26 say that no-one else can intercede for us?

Are all the prayer warriors here on earth wasting their time?



In scripture there are many examples of people calling others father both in the Old and the New Testaments. Here are a few examples from the NT - 1Cor 4:15, 1Jn 2:13, Acts 7:2,

Jesus refers to Abraham as father in Lk 16:24, as does James in Jas 2:21. Indeed in the same speech Jesus uses the word fathers (Mt 23:32).

Therefore we have to look deeper to see what Jesus meant by “call no man father”

We could go into all of these, and there are probably threads on them already, but each would be a long argument.
Mungo,
I go by what Jesus said. My soul is the most valuable that I have and I trust it to noone except Jesus. Not a concept, but what Jesus said. Romans 8:27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Who searches our hearts? Jesus does. Who is the Spirit? The Holy Spirit and he interceeds to God for the saints according to God's will. Notice he interceeds for the saints, not saints interceeds. 1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousands instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Read verse 14. Paul is calling the people his sons. Corinth was the most immoral city in the world at that time. anything went in way of worshipping the many Gods. Paul is taking a parental tone with the church there. He is not calling anyone father, he is using it in a term to describe the paternal parent.

1 John 2:3 Are you sure you have the verse you wanted? And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. What has that to do with oour discussion? Act 7:2 If you notice, Paul was not calling anyone Father, but again refering to a paternal parent. Abraham was the paternal parent of the Hebrew nation.

Mungo,
to resume... Matthew 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Once again, Jesus is refering to paternal parents. Luke 16:24 And he cried and said Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. Jesus is telling a parable, but consider who is calling out for Abraham? James 2 :21 is also again refering to the paternal parent, not calling Abraham "Father."
I am still not convinced by scriptures that it is ok to call a priest as father or the pope as holy father. Give me the scriptures.

Also, give me scriptures that gives the concept of purgetory or praying for somone in purgatory, or to a saint. I warn you, I will look up every scripture and check it out. I do the same to my minster with everyone of his sermons. Like I said I trust no one with my soul, but Jesus. I also respect your right to believe as you wish and I love you.
Grandma


All Non-Catholic Approved Bible Translations, Are Forbidden and Condemned, and Heretical

"This is the goal too of the crafty Bible Societies which renew the old skill of the heretics and ceaselessly force on people of all kinds, even the uneducated, gifts of the Bible. They issue these in large numbers and at great cost, in vernacular (language of the people) translations, which infringe the holy rules of the Church. The commentaries which are included often contain perverse explanations; so, having rejected divine tradition, the doctrine of the Fathers and the authority of the Catholic Church, they all interpret the words of the Lord by their own private judgment, thereby perverting their meaning. As a result, they fall into the greatest errors. Gregory XVI of happy memory, Our superior predecessor, followed the lead of his own predecessors in rejecting these societies in his apostolic letters. It is Our will to condemn them likewise." Pope Pius IX, Qui Pluribus (On Faith And Religion), Encyclical promulgated on November 9, 1846, #14.

You may want to read this again.

"The commentaries which are included often contain perverse explanations; so, having rejected divine tradition, the doctrine of the Fathers and the authority of the Catholic Church"

There is no other position possible, it is the Catholic Church or fall into the greatest errors.

Reading the Bible essentially outside of the juristiction of the RCC is heresy.

What is your opinion on this?

Rainbow,
Considering how Gegory XVI's predecessors got their power leaves one not really trusting his words. As far as PiusIX is concerned , I don't know why he didn't declare he was God... he did all but.
 

Mungo

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Mungo,
I go by what Jesus said. My soul is the most valuable that I have and I trust it to noone except Jesus. Not a concept, but what Jesus said. Romans 8:27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Who searches our hearts? Jesus does. Who is the Spirit? The Holy Spirit and he interceeds to God for the saints according to God's will. Notice he interceeds for the saints, not saints interceeds.

So you don’t believe in the Trinity then since that word is not in scripture?


1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousands instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Read verse 14. Paul is calling the people his sons. Corinth was the most immoral city in the world at that time. anything went in way of worshipping the many Gods. Paul is taking a parental tone with the church there. He is not calling anyone father, he is using it in a term to describe the paternal parent.

1 John 2:3 Are you sure you have the verse you wanted? And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. What has that to do with oour discussion? Act 7:2 If you notice, Paul was not calling anyone Father, but again refering to a paternal parent. Abraham was the paternal parent of the Hebrew nation.

Mungo,
to resume... Matthew 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Once again, Jesus is refering to paternal parents. Luke 16:24 And he cried and said Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. Jesus is telling a parable, but consider who is calling out for Abraham? James 2 :21 is also again refering to the paternal parent, not calling Abraham "Father."
I am still not convinced by scriptures that it is ok to call a priest as father or the pope as holy father. Give me the scriptures.

You are making a distinction between a parental father and non parental father that is not in scripture.

If you take Jesus literally then you must not call anyone father, including a parental father. Jesus didn’t say call no man father except your male parent.

“I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning.” (1Jn 2:13)
John is not addressing his own father.

“Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is coming!”(Mk 11:10)
People were not referring to their own parental father

“And Stephen said: "Brethren and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran” (Acts 7:2)
Stephen was not referring to his own parental father

I urge you on behalf of my child Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment (Philemon 1:10)
Paul was not Onesimus’ parental father.

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” (Jas 2:21)
Abraham was not James’ parental father.

In the same speech that Jesus says (call no man father” he says “Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.” (Mt 23:32)

The problem I think lies (as so often) in language.

According to a Greek Orthodox priest, who is also a Greek translator, the word translated “call” in Mt 23:9 is misunderstood. I do not understand the technicalities of Greek but apparently the word used (kalesete) is not any of those used to imply a name or title, but means summon or call forth and is in the second person aorist active subjunctive plural form (and no, I don’t understand what that is!).

It’s the same word that is translated call in Mt 9:13 & Lk 5:32. “For I came not to call (kalesai) the righteous, but sinners.” So Jesus is not referring to calling someone father in the sense of giving them the title father.

It’s also worth noting that in scripture back in the book of Judges a priest was referred to as a father.(Jg 17:10 & 18:19)



Also, give me scriptures that gives the concept of purgetory or praying for somone in purgatory, or to a saint. I warn you, I will look up every scripture and check it out. I do the same to my minster with everyone of his sermons. Like I said I trust no one with my soul, but Jesus. I also respect your right to believe as you wish and I love you.
Grandma

Do you really want to go into purgatory? It must have been done many times before.

I’m willing to discuss it but only if you are in for the long haul.


All Non-Catholic Approved Bible Translations, Are Forbidden and Condemned, and Heretical

"This is the goal too of the crafty Bible Societies which renew the old skill of the heretics and ceaselessly force on people of all kinds, even the uneducated, gifts of the Bible. They issue these in large numbers and at great cost, in vernacular (language of the people) translations, which infringe the holy rules of the Church. The commentaries which are included often contain perverse explanations; so, having rejected divine tradition, the doctrine of the Fathers and the authority of the Catholic Church, they all interpret the words of the Lord by their own private judgment, thereby perverting their meaning. As a result, they fall into the greatest errors. Gregory XVI of happy memory, Our superior predecessor, followed the lead of his own predecessors in rejecting these societies in his apostolic letters. It is Our will to condemn them likewise." Pope Pius IX, Qui Pluribus (On Faith And Religion), Encyclical promulgated on November 9, 1846, #14.

You may want to read this again.

"The commentaries which are included often contain perverse explanations; so, having rejected divine tradition, the doctrine of the Fathers and the authority of the Catholic Church"

There is no other position possible, it is the Catholic Church or fall into the greatest errors.

Reading the Bible essentially outside of the juristiction of the RCC is heresy.

What is your opinion on this?

I don’t see the Pope here condemning Protestant translations of the Bible per se. He seems to be condemning Bible Societies who “force on people of all kinds, even the uneducated, gifts of the Bible” which contain many errors, not in the translation but in commentaries - that is with false (“perverse”) interpretations in footnotes.

Would you want uneducated people to be given the Book of Mormon or the New World Translation as genuine Christian texts, not realising how false they are?

The Pope is merely trying to protect the flock from falsehoods.
 

grandma dolittle

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So you don’t believe in the Trinity then since that word is not in scripture?




You are making a distinction between a parental father and non parental father that is not in scripture.

If you take Jesus literally then you must not call anyone father, including a parental father. Jesus didn’t say call no man father except your male parent.

“I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning.” (1Jn 2:13)
John is not addressing his own father.

“Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is coming!”(Mk 11:10)
People were not referring to their own parental father

“And Stephen said: "Brethren and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran” (Acts 7:2)
Stephen was not referring to his own parental father

I urge you on behalf of my child Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment (Philemon 1:10)
Paul was not Onesimus’ parental father.

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” (Jas 2:21)
Abraham was not James’ parental father.

In the same speech that Jesus says (call no man father” he says “Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.” (Mt 23:32)

The problem I think lies (as so often) in language.

According to a Greek Orthodox priest, who is also a Greek translator, the word translated “call” in Mt 23:9 is misunderstood. I do not understand the technicalities of Greek but apparently the word used (kalesete) is not any of those used to imply a name or title, but means summon or call forth and is in the second person aorist active subjunctive plural form (and no, I don’t understand what that is!).

It’s the same word that is translated call in Mt 9:13 & Lk 5:32. “For I came not to call (kalesai) the righteous, but sinners.” So Jesus is not referring to calling someone father in the sense of giving them the title father.

It’s also worth noting that in scripture back in the book of Judges a priest was referred to as a father.(Jg 17:10 & 18:19)





Do you really want to go into purgatory? It must have been done many times before.

I’m willing to discuss it but only if you are in for the long haul.



I don’t see the Pope here condemning Protestant translations of the Bible per se. He seems to be condemning Bible Societies who “force on people of all kinds, even the uneducated, gifts of the Bible” which contain many errors, not in the translation but in commentaries - that is with false (“perverse”) interpretations in footnotes.

Would you want uneducated people to be given the Book of Mormon or the New World Translation as genuine Christian texts, not realising how false they are?

The Pope is merely trying to protect the flock from falsehoods.
Mungo,
I would like to know the concept of purgatory. I want to know if what I have heard is correct or if I have had false info. I still have trouble with the concept of calling a man Father in reference and honor. My earthly father was called Daddy, but all the same the word would mean much different than that which the priest or pope is called. And Yes, I do believe in the Trinity, although it is hard to understand, but John said they were one. I know many words in the KJV are misinterpreted, but the concept is still there.

And no, I would not want any cult literature passed to ignorant people as God's words. I suppose that we each have the belief that we were taught. As long as we hold God close to us and keep our faith, we may see each other in heaven.
 

rainbows

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Hello Mungo, perhaps one of us does need reading spectacles.

You replied;

I don’t see the Pope here condemning Protestant translations of the Bible per se. He seems to be condemning Bible Societies who “force on people of all kinds, even the uneducated, gifts of the Bible” which contain many errors, not in the translation but in commentaries - that is with false (“perverse”) interpretations in footnotes.

Now Mungo, I will reprint and highlight the particular line in the extract which should emphasis the error in your reply.

"This is the goal too of the crafty Bible Societies which renew the old skill of the heretics and ceaselessly force on people of all kinds, even the uneducated, gifts of the Bible. They issue these in large numbers and at great cost, in vernacular (language of the people) translations, which infringe the holy rules of the Church.

You will kindly note that the pope has included the unauthorized translations
of the Bible. In fact, your reply is conrtrary to the teachings of the only
true church, you are in opposition to papal authority. A translation that
is not authorized by the RCC is heresy. The Catholic Church is the only
source for the scripture! The Catholic Church is the only organization
that can understand the scriptures!
 

Mungo

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Hello Mungo, perhaps one of us does need reading spectacles.

You replied;

I don’t see the Pope here condemning Protestant translations of the Bible per se. He seems to be condemning Bible Societies who “force on people of all kinds, even the uneducated, gifts of the Bible” which contain many errors, not in the translation but in commentaries - that is with false (“perverse”) interpretations in footnotes.

Now Mungo, I will reprint and highlight the particular line in the extract which should emphasis the error in your reply.

"This is the goal too of the crafty Bible Societies which renew the old skill of the heretics and ceaselessly force on people of all kinds, even the uneducated, gifts of the Bible. They issue these in large numbers and at great cost, in vernacular (language of the people) translations, which infringe the holy rules of the Church.

You will kindly note that the pope has included the unauthorized translations
of the Bible. In fact, your reply is conrtrary to the teachings of the only
true church, you are in opposition to papal authority. A translation that
is not authorized by the RCC is heresy. The Catholic Church is the only
source for the scripture! The Catholic Church is the only organization
that can understand the scriptures!

Context, context.

The original quote was a whole paragraph from the Encyclical. The first sentence sets the context - the forcing of Bibles on people. A particular issue is the pervere commentaries. Though I would agree that poor translations are also unwelcome. The Church tries to protect it’s flock from error and therefore tries to ensure that it reads approved translations. Would you want people reading the New World Translation for example?

Where do you get the idea that translations that are not approved by the Church are heresy?

Mungo,
I would like to know the concept of purgatory. I want to know if what I have heard is correct or if I have had false info. I still have trouble with the concept of calling a man Father in reference and honor. My earthly father was called Daddy, but all the same the word would mean much different than that which the priest or pope is called. And Yes, I do believe in the Trinity, although it is hard to understand, but John said they were one. I know many words in the KJV are misinterpreted, but the concept is still there.

And no, I would not want any cult literature passed to ignorant people as God's words. I suppose that we each have the belief that we were taught. As long as we hold God close to us and keep our faith, we may see each other in heaven.

Hi grandma dolittle,

I'll start a thread on Purgatory and try and give you my understanding.

I'm never sure which is the most appropriate forum. I'll put it here but the mods might move it.