Is the Holy Spirit a "He," "She," or “It”?

Rach1370 · Apr 23, 2012

MR ROSENBERGER said:
"She" used in that way as got noting to do with a woman at all when referring to an object as such.

Someone talking to me about my car and says how many miles to the gallon does she get, i say she can do 22 MPG. ? end of story as it has noting to do with blasphemy at all.

The way you are using 'she' here in not in question for objects like cars etc. But quite clearly the Holy Spirit is a 'person'...He is God, and He most certainly isn't an object like a car or boat. So since He is His own person, we must ask ourselves (in the query of what 'sex' a 'spirit' could be!) what the Bible references Him as...

Linguistically, it is clear that masculine theistic terminology dominates the Scriptures. Throughout both testaments, references to God use masculine pronouns. Specific names for God (e.g., Yahweh, Elohim, Adonai, Kurios, Theos, etc.) are all in the masculine gender. God is never given a feminine name, or referred to using feminine pronouns. The Holy Spirit is referred to in the masculine throughout the New Testament, although the word for "spirit" by itself (pneuma) is actually gender-neutral.

Actually, in terms of English usage, the masculine pronoun is always used in more ambiguous situations. "he" is used if a the sex of a person is unknown or unsure. "She" is only ever used if the person is definitely female.

In the end, whatever our theological explanation, the fact is that God used exclusively masculine terms to refer to Himself and almost exclusively masculine terminology even in metaphor. Through the Bible He taught us how to speak of Him, and it was in masculine relational terms. So, while the Holy Spirit is neither male nor female in His essence, He is properly referred to in the masculine by virtue of His relation to creation and biblical revelation. There is absolutely no biblical basis for viewing the Holy Spirit as the “female” member of the Trinity.

The Comforter is the Spirit of Jesus Christ and there was no Comforter until Jesus came but there was the Spirit before Christ but in this the Comforter we know as Jesus Christ him self bestowing his gifts and we know it's coming from him. as i said before the Spirit is unrestrained and Jesus did the will of the Spirit only and we can see Christ at work as Emmanuel.

But if we look at the passages in context, Jesus is not speaking of himself 'in the spirit'...He is definitely talking of something other...the 'Holy Spirit', whom we know to be the third member of the Trinity...His own person, and that Jesus will send 'Him' to us...and there are several passages that talk of the Spirit in masculine terms.

1. John 14:16-17-"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; [that is] the Spirit of the truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, [but] you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you."

2. John 14:26-"But the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He [Gr. that one] will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

3. John 15:26-"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, [that is] the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me."

4. John 16:7-8-"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world..."

5. John 16:13-15-"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose [it] to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose [it] to you."

So, you may feel comfortable labelling the Spirit in terms of an object, but the Bible teaches us otherwise. That is the danger I was warning you of. Any time we go contrary to scripture and say 'it doesn't matter, because the word I'm using doesn't mean what the word actually means'...it's cracking a door open to something we shouldn't do. If you're usage of the word 'she' doesn't mean 'she', and doesn't seem such a big deal to you, what, may I ask, is the harm of sticking to biblical terminology and practice, and calling the Spirit 'he'?

HeRoseFromTheDead · Apr 24, 2012

I'm under the impression that a person has to have a body. Can anyone show me in the bible where the holy spirit has a body?... Anyone?... I thought so.

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Luke 24:39

The bible says that wisdom is justified of of all her children, which means that wisdom is a mother. Also, the bible says that Jerusalem above is our mother, which means that Jerusalem is wisdom. Also, the bible says that Christ is the wisdom of God, which means Christ is our mother/Jerusalem. :huh:

In the verses you listed he is actually a Greek word meaning:

It (John 14:16-17)
That one (John 14:26)
That one (John 15:26)
Him (John 16:7-
It (John 16:13-15)

Having an opinion is fine, but I think it's pointless to quibble over things like this.

Rach1370 · Apr 24, 2012

Of course the Holy Spirit doesn't have a body. I wasn't suggesting that He does...and therefore has a specific gender as we do. In fact, neither does God the Father. We are told He too is Spirit, but indeed scripture refers to him as 'father'...not 'mother'. But we know that the Holy Spirit is indeed his own 'person'...one of three within the God head. The bible shows us this:

Personal Actions of the Holy Spirit
The Spirit comforts John 12:26; 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7 The Spirit teaches John 14:26; 1 Cor. 2:13 The Spirit speaks Acts 8:29; 13:2 The Spirit makes decisions Acts 15:28 The Spirit grieves over sin Eph. 4:30 The Spirit overrules human actions Acts 16:6–7 The Spirit searches the deep things of God and knows the thoughts of God 1 Cor. 2:10–11 The Spirit determines the distribution of spiritual gifts 1 Cor. 12:11 The Spirit interprets and brings human prayer before the throne of the Father Rom. 8:26–27 The Spirit assures believers of their adoption Rom. 8:16 The Spirit bears witness to and glorifies Christ John 15:26; 16:14

I don't think discussing this is pointless. And I don't believe it to be just my opinion. The bible speaks of all members of the Trinity in male pronouns. Granted, it can be seen as ambiguous in its usage, but not when considered within biblical context. Consider:

Original Word: αὐτός, αὐτή, αὐτό
Part of Speech: Personal Pronoun
Short Definition: he, she, it

So yes, it could mean either 'he', 'she' or 'it'. But why do you suppose that so many biblical scholars over the years have translated it so:
New International Version (©1984)
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
New Living Translation (©2007)
He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn't looking for him and doesn't recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.
English Standard Version (©2001)
even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So, perhaps it is pickiness on my part. Maybe I'm making a to do about nothing. But if the God of the universe chooses to reveal Himself to us in a certain form or in a certain regard, don't you think, out of respect if nothing else, that we should maybe just go along with that? And if it is more than just respect, what do you suppose it could be? How often do you suppose that relaxing over such 'quibbles' and 'pickiness' leads to a liberalism that actually breaks down our understanding of who God is? I would think that is actually quite important.

HammerStone · Apr 24, 2012

Ah, but look at the definition of person more closely, particularly in the realm of Philosophy.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/person?s=t

Our word persona comes from the original meaning of the word, and it was adopted by the church to describe(in Latin) the trinity. The Bible provides the spirit with numerous traits found in us like searching hearts - thinking knowing emotions - (I Corinthians 2:10-11), giving gifts (I Corinthians 12:11), intercession (Romans 8:27), instruction (Nehemiah 9:20), speaking (Acts 13:2), etc.

All of these are the qualities, emotions, and facilities of a person - and not an inanimate object. Obviously, first and foremost his is the Spirit, but we have these other terms, backed by the Bible, that we can use to understand His nature to the best of our abilities.

I'd submit we should study these things - this is part of the mystery of God and understanding who He is. When you're referencing a "he" as a "she" you're clearly intending to mean one thing or another. I'm a guy, when someone calls me a she, it's either that A) it's a joke for fun or B) I'm undergoing sex change with the intention of becoming a woman - which I have no plans for since I don't desire to be a female. We don't mix those terms for a reason. I'm at this level way down here and I give enough respect to a man or a woman by correctly addressing their sex out of respect, so what about God? We also don't reference Jesus as she (Jesusa or something) and we don't reference God as a she within any orthodox practice in the faith, although Jesus and God both have "feminine" attributes in Scripture. Unfortunately, there is some language ambiguity that we don't fully understand, but our God is never with a consort other Gods because that tends to imply God's not complete, ultimately. (I mean, let's talk Song of Solomon, for instance when it comes to ambiguity - no one likes to touch or preach that one.)

As another example, the Hebrew for the Spirit actually refers to breath. We might use that to describe the Holy Spirit, to talk about him and to understand part of his nature, but we don't talk about God's wind or breath in place of the Holy Spirit because we know these terms won't convey what we need to convey. It's very sacred and holy that God's spirit is the ruach, the wind or breath, but if we start saying God's breath at all times in our language, we're going to suggest other things versus using the word Spirit.

I'm not Reformed in my bent on how we address/talk to/pray to God and I'm probably going to use the term "Abba" (Father, even Dad) over "Our Heavenly Holy Father enthroned above the nations, far above the earthly realm" when I pray to God. I'm actually pretty open to not having to be so stuck-in-the-mud formal about things (while still retaining reverence), but our word choices are key and we have to be aware of what we are saying/suggesting.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Apr 24, 2012

Some things to consider.

Solomon describes wisdom as being feminine.

Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. Proverbs 8:1-3

Jesus also described wisdom as being feminine.

... wisdom is justified of her children. Matthew 11:19

The spirit of wisdom is one of the seven holy spirits of God.

The Spirit of God shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and godliness shall fill him; the spirit of the fear of God. Isaiah 11:2-3

Thus a scriptural case can be made that the holy spirit is feminine.

Since the pronoun usage in the verses Rach listed are at best inconclusive as to gender, it seems the idea that the holy spirit is masculine is based on man's opinion and tradition rather than a clear scriptural witness.

Rach1370 · Apr 24, 2012

Amen HammerStone!

HeRose, can I ask you something...pronouns and all aside? Do you really believe that scripture is teaching, anywhere, that the Trinity is made up of two 'male' persons and a third 'female' person? Now, granted the Father and the Spirit do not have a 'body' for there to be a physical sex like us...but as I and HS pointed out, even if the references to the Holy Spirit are vague, the clear reference to 'the Father' is male. I'm not denying that the bible does give some 'feminine' qualities to both the Father as well as Jesus...both of them wishing to gather Israel to themselves like a hen does it's chicks...but even with those qualities they are still very much 'male'...Jesus undeniably so! So my question to you is this...why do you think then, that given all we are told from scripture about the God head, do you believe we may call the Spirit 'she'. The texts may be ambiguous, but as I stated in my first post, in terms of usage, 'she' is only used when you know the person in question is undoubtedly female. I don't know that we can say that about the Spirit....do you?

HeRoseFromTheDead · Apr 24, 2012

Rach said:
So my question to you is this...why do you think then, that given all we are told from scripture about the God head, do you believe we may call the Spirit 'she'. The texts may be ambiguous, but as I stated in my first post, in terms of usage, 'she' is only used when you know the person in question is undoubtedly female. I don't know that we can say that about the Spirit....do you?

The scriptures I quoted above are not ambiguous. Solomon and Jesus plainly called wisdom she. The spirit of wisdom is clearly one of the seven holy spirits per Isaiah.

I have no agenda in this matter. I don't care. I'm just looking at it with childlike eyes that sees what's plainly written, and points out the obvious. The fact of the matter is there is no male or female in God. All such conventions are for man's limited, linear understanding, that within his limited context he may come to know the unlimited.

I'll leave you with this. If femininity is not part of the godhead, where does it come from?

HammerStone · Apr 24, 2012

No ambiguity? That's a complete oversimplification and exactly why we need to talk about this! God chose masculine pronouns for a reason. He could have chosen to remain neutral or to assume explicitly feminine, but He chose masculine for a reason to illustrate his relationship with us.

As for the ambiguity of this, all the above does not address Isaiah 11:2-3. Wisdom and understanding is but a piece of the whole. Feminine and masculine are both used in the same passage. These traits are combined here, but the Holy Spirit is called a He just as God and Jesus both are. It's ambiguity by definition because the Holy Spirit has both masculine and feminine ascribed to Him, but He remains a Him. There's a reason for that.

Again, God is portrayed as a mother in verses in the Psalms, for instance, but we don't say "Mother God." As for the argument that God is not explicitly male or female - well to me that's just a red herring in the whole matter because, of course, He's God, We're not limiting Him to the human definition, but we do desire to correctly express what He is. He [God] also chose to address the relationship in a very specific matter and we should, therefore, remain respectful and cognizant of that choice. God's not mother earth, not mother anything - he's Father God. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is not a mother. That doesn't mean the feminine cannot be ascribed to a limitless God, a an amazing Holy Spirit, but that does not give us free license to call Him a her, or whatever else we like for that matter.

On top of it all, we have a long history of cults that give God a consort or suggest some other sexual relationship. We have a [relatively] newly resurgent feminism and new age religion that talks about God as a she and this can and will lead to confusion if not expressed correctly.

Rach1370 · Apr 24, 2012

HeRoseFromTheDead said:
The scriptures I quoted above are not ambiguous. Solomon and Jesus plainly called wisdom she. The spirit of wisdom is clearly one of the seven holy spirits per Isaiah.

But is 'wisdom' and the Spirit exactly the same? The Spirit is wise, and brings wisdom, just as God is love and is good and is just. We also know God to be wise, to grant wisdom...but He is not 'she', no matter what wisdom 'is called'.

But if we get down to it...the usage of the word 'she' in your passage about 'wisdom'...the Matthew one anyway, actually comes out as exactly the same Strong's number as the 'he' used in John. Now, I'm really not a scholar, and I really don't know about how they translated the different pronouns, but it seems they have used the number 846 for both, only translating one to 'he' and the other to 'she'. Now, I'm not saying that scripture is wrong or their translation is wrong when they used 'she' in the Matthew verse. I'm just saying that by your own reasoning, the very usage of the word 'she' in regards to 'wisdom' must therefore be in question, because it could mean 'he' or 'she' or 'it'. We either trust what we read in the scriptures to point out truth (in which case the Holy Spirit is named as 'he' and also the "spirit of wisdom" is she...no real proof that The Spirit and the spirit of wisdom are one and the same, by the way...but that's a whoooole other topic!!) or we call into question everything within God's word. To me, it's as simple as that. I trust God to preserve His word in truth, so I cannot believe other than the Holy Spirit is a 'he'.

I have no agenda in this matter. I don't care. I'm just looking at it with childlike eyes that sees what's plainly written, and points out the obvious. The fact of the matter is there is no male or female in God. All such conventions are for man's limited, linear understanding, that within his limited context he may come to know the unlimited.

You see, here is my point of difference. I too don't 'really care' whether God is male of female...I care what God tells us He is. God is God, and when it comes down to it my or your understanding of such a being is lacking at best. So we must rely on scripture, and in scripture God clearly reveals Himself to us as Father. Jesus is clearly male, the Church his 'bride'. And, as discussed before, the evidence points to male referencing in regards to the Spirit...despite that He has no body! So, that is why I care. I care and think it's important, because God revealed it to us...as that. What God says is true, should be of utmost importance to us.

I'll leave you with this. If femininity is not part of the godhead, where does it come from?

Of course it comes from God. All things come from God. But just because we have and experience something coming from God, doesn't mean He is that and only that! For femininity to come from God, you would suggest that one of the trinity would have to be female? I don't believe that's what scripture teaches. We know God to be wrathful, but that is not all He is. He is everything. He is wrathful, but his equal attributes are love, goodness, justice, kindness. In the same way while he reveals himself to us as 'Father',we know he has those wonderful nurturing instincts that He has given women...to gather his children to him, to protect and love them. In fact, I would say that even as a man (I'm assuming here that you are...sorry if I'm wrong!) you would have some of those instincts yourself! That does not mean you are a woman, just that you are capable of displaying gentleness at times, rather than more male characteristics. Both sexes are capable of both emotions, let's face it. But as a general rule we are intrinsically programmed to certain behaviours...women being more 'gentle' in their protection, men more 'aggressive' in it! But in God we see a perfect blend of both! Jesus was so very kind and loving towards some, but really didn't pull his punches towards others! As mankind, we are made in God's image and likeness, so it only stands to reason that we have some traits of his...but as He decided that it wasn't good for man to be alone...that he needed a helper, he has given men and women different but complimentary traits.
So yes, femininity comes from God, but clearly He wants us to call Him Father, rather than mother! And there is nothing that suggests The Holy Spirit of God needs to be referred to differently.

brightmorningstar · Apr 25, 2012

Simple. The Holy Spirit of God is referred to a 'He' but is spirit, the spirit of God. Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as 'He', One wouldnt for example object to "the table" in French being "la", feminine. People who object to 'He' havent understood the Spirit. God made male and female; in His image He made them!

lawrance · Apr 25, 2012

Thank you Rach for bring this up.
As in my post, of did Jesus really walk on the water.

You know i never called the Spirit 'She' at all, but only talking about that the 'gifts' ? She works in mysterious ways, 'the gifts' of the Holy Spirit.?
Now that is an object, given i think.
And i say that the Holy Spirit in it's self, is not Male or female at all. but is way beyond that, and having said that, sure there is reference to He as such because it is coming from a point of view from the Father or the Son.
I believe the Spirit is no less then God, but is God, and it has no bounds and it is of this Spirit that is how we come to understand the Father and the Son.
To say everything that the Holy Spirit says comes purely from a male perspective would be wrong.
Without the Spirit we have noting at all to work with, as we would all be lost, as the Father and the Son would be irrelevant with out the Spirit to us.
Things or it can be describes as She in Australia. and my Dictionary backs it up. a gift is something given, even the Holy Spirit can be a Gift.

Rach1370 · Apr 25, 2012

I think it's an interesting topic...one of the reasons I started a thread. I'm not actually sure that I've ever read anything specific on it, so I found it helpful to myself if no one else, to do some digging!
It's an interesting point you make in regards to the actual gifts given to us. Could they be considered as objects? I'm not sure, but probably! The gifts manifest themselves within individuals, but are not individuals themselves. Nice, I'll think about that some!

gregg · Apr 26, 2012

adam was a he and she untill God seperated him.he had both qualitys male, female but he was called he.to me the HOLY SPIRIT is GODS motherly attrabutes-comfort-teach-lead and guide,isn't that what a good mother does.also you have heard-you can talk bad about my father, brother,but you better not bad mouth my mother.God has given us his all.

JLB · May 11, 2012

Here is what The Word says -

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Somewhere in the Us is a female. Within the Godhead there is a female.

Remember. He [Jesus] is the only BEGOTTEN SON of God.

Jesus is the FIRSTBORN over all creation.

For it is written, Spirit gives birth to spirit. John 3

There is much more to this...

Thanks, JLB

Rach1370 · May 12, 2012

JLB said:
Here is what The Word says -

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Somewhere in the Us is a female. Within the Godhead there is a female.

Remember. He [Jesus] is the only BEGOTTEN SON of God.

Jesus is the FIRSTBORN over all creation.

For it is written, Spirit gives birth to spirit. John 3

There is much more to this...

Thanks, JLB

You are assuming because God said "in OUR image" and then made both male and female, that one of the members of the Trinity must be female. But truly, the bible gives us no basis to make this assumption. In fact, if we are going to base our exegesis on just this passage we could still come up with another alternative, which we have already explored. God, being neither male or female (God is Spirit!) made mankind in His image...in other words He bestowed upon us characteristics that can be seen in Him. But being God, everything is absolute, complete and perfect in Himself...while in us the traits are spread out and imperfect. Giving us these traits like this covers it all...masculine and feminine.
Now, elsewhere in scripture we are told God refers to Himself as 'Father'...a masculine term. And Jesus was definately male here on earth. And nothing else in scripture suggests that (other than the Godhead having feminie traits) we should consider any of the Godhead as female. I have nothing against women. If it turned out that the God of the universe was a woman..fine! But the fact is...He is not. He has revealed Himself to us as male, and as nothing in scripture leads me to even assume otherwise, I believe it's just safe to keep on the track God Himself put us.

JLB · May 12, 2012

Rach said:
You are assuming because God said "in OUR image" and then made both male and female, that one of the members of the Trinity must be female. But truly, the bible gives us no basis to make this assumption. In fact, if we are going to base our exegesis on just this passage we could still come up with another alternative, which we have already explored. God, being neither male or female (God is Spirit!) made mankind in His image...in other words He bestowed upon us characteristics that can be seen in Him. But being God, everything is absolute, complete and perfect in Himself...while in us the traits are spread out and imperfect. Giving us these traits like this covers it all...masculine and feminine.
Now, elsewhere in scripture we are told God refers to Himself as 'Father'...a masculine term. And Jesus was definately male here on earth. And nothing else in scripture suggests that (other than the Godhead having feminie traits) we should consider any of the Godhead as female. I have nothing against women. If it turned out that the God of the universe was a woman..fine! But the fact is...He is not. He has revealed Himself to us as male, and as nothing in scripture leads me to even assume otherwise, I believe it's just safe to keep on the track God Himself put us.

I don't ever teach or share about this, because it is very controversial.

However, since someone started this thread, I decided to join in.

Rach wrote - He has revealed Himself to us as male, and as nothing in scripture leads me to even assume otherwise, I believe it's just safe to keep on the track God Himself put us.

You are probably right! It's probably safer to not engage in this discussion!

But since you and I have started, would you please consider some relevant truth.

The concept of family originated with God.

The concept of procreation originated from God.

Jesus is uncreated.

Jesus is God.

Jesus is The Son of God.

Jesus is YHWH.

Jesus is The Firstborn... over all creation.

The Word says - Spirit gives birth to Spirit. John 3

The Word does not say - God, being neither male or female - as you have stated!

The Word says Wisdom is female
The Word says knowledge is female
Does not Wisdom cry out and understanding lift up Her voice. - Female

The Word says Jesus will be married to His Bride.

The Word says He shall be called "Everlasting Father".

There is much more, however if we are going to learn from the Word let's use reference's from the Word rather than just our opinion.

Thanks, JLB

ttruscott · May 12, 2012

HeRoseFromTheDead said:
I'm under the impression that a person has to have a body. Can anyone show me in the bible where the holy spirit has a body?... Anyone?... I thought so.

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Luke 24:39
...

So, GOD the Father is not a person?

Peace, Ted

Rach1370 · May 12, 2012

JLB said:
I don't ever teach or share about this, because it is very controversial.

However, since someone started this thread, I decided to join in.

Rach wrote - He has revealed Himself to us as male, and as nothing in scripture leads me to even assume otherwise, I believe it's just safe to keep on the track God Himself put us.

You are probably right! It's probably safer to not engage in this discussion!
But since you and I have started, would you please consider some relevant truth.

The concept of family originated with God.

The concept of procreation originated from God.

Jesus is uncreated.

Jesus is God.

Jesus is The Son of God.

Jesus is YHWH.

Jesus is The Firstborn... over all creation.

The Word says - Spirit gives birth to Spirit. John 3

Always happy to consider relevant truth! And yes, those are certainly truths, but I cannot see how they tell us one way or another about what we should call The Spirit.
And in so far as you underlining the "firstborn" and the Spirit "giving birth"...I'm not sure what your intending here. Obviously The Spirit does not give actual birth, like a woman gives birth. When the bible refers to Jesus as the 'firstborn' it is talking about His resurrection body...how He is the first to be given a new perfect body, and we will follow. So both references are talking about a renewing...in spirit or in body...not actually about a physical birth. So again, I'm a little unclear on your point.

The Word does not say - God, being neither male or female - as you have stated!

I thought this to be fairly obvious. The Bible tells us that God is spirit...in other words, He does not have a physical body like us...male or female. The Bible also tells us that He refers to Himself (as does Jesus) as 'Father'...which is male. So my point was that while God does not have a physical body to have a male or female 'sex'...He still wants us to refer to Him in a male way.

The Word says Wisdom is female
The Word says knowledge is female
Does not Wisdom cry out and understanding lift up Her voice. - Female

The Word says Jesus will be married to His Bride.

The Word says He shall be called "Everlasting Father".

This was covered in more detail above. But putting aside the vagueness of language for a moment, we could also say that while 'wisdom' and 'knowledge' and 'understanding' are all good things and traits that we receive from the Spirit, and indeed the Spirit has in abundance and perfection...they are still just objects...traits. As Mr R claimed above, linguistically, it is seen as appropriate to name objects 'she'...even though they do not have a true sex! But The Spirit is not a thing, an object or even just a trait...He is a person...the third person of the Trinity.

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; [that is] the Spirit of the truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, [but] you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." (John 14:16-17)

There is much more, however if we are going to learn from the Word let's use reference's from the Word rather than just our opinion.
Thanks, JLB

Actually, that has been my point all along. The Bible is what we must draw our knowledge from...and the bible in no way tells us to call the Holy Spirit 'she'. It just doesn't. If you can show me undeniable proof the the third member of the Trinity is 'female', then I will happily follow scripture.

When it comes down to it, I believe scripture does give us the information we need:

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; [that is] the Spirit of the truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, [but] you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." (John 14:16-17)

People may say here that in Greek the 'he' is ambiguous. But so is the usage of 'she'. In the inference of 'wisdom' being called a she...the same word is used "autos"...it can be used as 'he', 'she' or 'it'. Its the context that determines what is put there. Linguistically, we use 'she' only if we know without a doubt that the person is female...or perhaps in the case of some object or impersonal trait. We use 'he' more often if the sex is male or simply unknown. The Spirit being just that...spirit, but also a very definite personality...it would only make sense to use 'he' rather than 'it'. That doesn't make the Spirit a 'he' in the same sense of Christ...a physical male, but by calling Him a 'him' we show respect...I think. And yes, that very last bit was opinion! But I truly feel calling The Spirit 'it' takes away from His very personal nature...He is God living within us! That is very personal.

JLB · May 12, 2012

Rach said:
Always happy to consider relevant truth! And yes, those are certainly truths, but I cannot see how they tell us one way or another about what we should call The Spirit.
And in so far as you underlining the "firstborn" and the Spirit "giving birth"...I'm not sure what your intending here. Obviously The Spirit does not give actual birth, like a woman gives birth. When the bible refers to Jesus as the 'firstborn' it is talking about His resurrection body...how He is the first to be given a new perfect body, and we will follow. So both references are talking about a renewing...in spirit or in body...not actually about a physical birth. So again, I'm a little unclear on your point.

You wrote - When the bible refers to Jesus as the 'firstborn' it is talking about His resurrection body

Not true at all.

First-fruits refers to the First resurrected body.

But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

I thought this to be fairly obvious. The Bible tells us that God is spirit...in other words, He does not have a physical body like us...male or female. The Bible also tells us that He refers to Himself (as does Jesus) as 'Father'...which is male. So my point was that while God does not have a physical body to have a male or female 'sex'...He still wants us to refer to Him in a male way.

Please give your scripture for this, not just opinion.

How can anyone you reads the bible come up with there is only Male in the sirit and not Female when I have given you several scriptures that say different.

This was covered in more detail above. But putting aside the vagueness of language for a moment, we could also say that while 'wisdom' and 'knowledge' and 'understanding' are all good things and traits that we receive from the Spirit, and indeed the Spirit has in abundance and perfection...they are still just objects...traits. As Mr R claimed above, linguistically, it is seen as appropriate to name objects 'she'...even though they do not have a true sex! But The Spirit is not a thing, an object or even just a trait...He is a person...the third person of the Trinity.

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; [that is] the Spirit of the truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, [but] you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." (John 14:16-17)

Actually, that has been my point all along. The Bible is what we must draw our knowledge from...and the bible in no way tells us to call the Holy Spirit 'she'. It just doesn't. If you can show me undeniable proof the the third member of the Trinity is 'female', then I will happily follow scripture.

Im not telling you to call the Holy Spirit anything. That is between you and God.

When it comes down to it, I believe scripture does give us the information we need:

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; [that is] the Spirit of the truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, [but] you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." (John 14:16-17)

People may say here that in Greek the 'he' is ambiguous. But so is the usage of 'she'. In the inference of 'wisdom' being called a she...the same word is used "autos"...it can be used as 'he', 'she' or 'it'. Its the context that determines what is put there. Linguistically, we use 'she' only if we know without a doubt that the person is female...or perhaps in the case of some object or impersonal trait. We use 'he' more often if the sex is male or simply unknown. The Spirit being just that...spirit, but also a very definite personality...it would only make sense to use 'he' rather than 'it'. That doesn't make the Spirit a 'he' in the same sense of Christ...a physical male, but by calling Him a 'him' we show respect...I think. And yes, that very last bit was opinion! But I truly feel calling The Spirit 'it' takes away from His very personal nature...He is God living within us! That is very personal.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. What does begotten mean to you?

Why does Jesus get married to a Bride?

Why shall He be called Everlasting Father?

Not that anyone person can explain the mystery of God in it's fullness, however these questions need to be considered as valid to any such discussion.

Rach1370 · May 14, 2012

JLB said:
Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. What does begotten mean to you?

It denotes a father generating offspring...usually. But in the case of Christ we know that He has always been, that He is not a created being. In terms of the title of 'firstborn' it conveys pre-eminence in family lineage and rights of inheritance. It does not mean that Jesus was created. Indeed we also know that Jesus, as the 'Son' is not 'less' than The Father, or that The Father gave Him life...it is a signal of the order and perfection within the Trinity, of Jesus wonderful submission to the Father's will, for the glory to God.

Why does Jesus get married to a Bride?

Ahhh, because as a male He wouldn't get married to a groom? The 'marriage' of Jesus to the Church is symbolic of the covenant He has with us. I don't believe we can support in any way that in the end Jesus will actually marry the 'Church' and have the kind of relationship with us all as we do here within our marriages. The marriage is symbolic of the spiritual reality that Jesus gave His life for us...and that really has nothing to do with male or female.

Why shall He be called Everlasting Father?

Because He calls Himself The Father, and as He's promised us to be with us always, and is eternal, it will be an everlasting thing.

Not that anyone person can explain the mystery of God in it's fullness, however these questions need to be considered as valid to any such discussion.

I agree, we cannot. And certainly these questions must be asked...with many more! But always with the understanding that what we need to know, the Bible provides for us. And in this matter, it doesn't provide us any reason or proof to designate The Spirit with the title of 'she'.

Is the Holy Spirit a "He," "She," or “It”?

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