Is the Holy Spirit a "He," "She," or “It”?
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The bible says Jesus is the only begotten of The Father.
I didn't write the bible.
Tell me how you interpret only begotten, like Abraham begot Isaac.
Paul wrote - Ephesians 5:31-32
31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
What does this scripture mean to you, that Christ and His Bride (the church) shall become one flesh.
Furthermore there are 4 persons involved in this scripture that Paul calls a Great Mystery.
Thanks, JLB
Selene
New Member
The word "begotten" is an English translation. The Greek word for "only begotten" is "monogenes," which has two primary definitions. The first definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship." This is the meaning attached to its use in Hebrews 11:17 when the writer refers to Isaac as Abraham's "only begotten son." Abraham actually had more than one son, but Isaac was the only son he had by Sarah and the only son of the covenant.
The second definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind." This is the meaning that is implied in John 3:16. In fact, John is the only New Testament writer who uses this word in reference to Jesus (see John 1:14-18, 3:16, 181 John 4:9). John was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus was the Son of God (John 20:31), and he uses this word to highlight Jesus as uniquely God's Son—sharing the same divine nature as God—as opposed to believers who are God's sons and daughters through faith.
In the Nicene Creed, (which was written in the 4th century), in referring to Jesus as the eternally begotten Son, the Greek word "monogenes" is described in that way:
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made
Wonderfully put, and dead on.
JLB...
I would also add in regards to you saying that Jesus being the 'first born' and 'begotten' of God, this:
"First born" is better understood to mean that Christ has the rights or privileges of the 'first-born' - that is, according to biblical usage and custom, the right of leadership or authority in the family for one's generation. (Notice Heb 12:16 where Esau is said to have sold his 'first-born' status or birthright). So in regards to that term, which we find in Col 1:15, we are to understand that Jesus has the privileges of authority and rule with respect over all creation...not that He is literally the first born child.
Also, with the term 'begotten', the early Church felt so strongly the force of many other texts showing that Jesus was fully and completely God, that 'begotten' could not mean 'created'...hence the Nicene Creed. That, however, was ultimately felt not strong enough a statement to convey the true divine nature of Christ. In 381 the council of Constantinople realised that it needed to be more strongly stated, for if Christ is not of exactly the same nature as the Father, then he was not fully God. So they insisted that orthodox Christianity refer to Jesus as homoousios...'of the same nature as God the Father'.
Scripture is clear in regards to the: 1, divinity of the three members of the Trinity, and 2, the personal nature of each. So while there may be a proliferation of terms used to try and convey how each function, all it really comes down to is this....we use words to try and show the relationships between the members of the Godhead. Jesus relates to the Father as a Son would, by obeying him, honouring him, submitting to him.
You can attempt to make Jesus something by playing these terms, but to do so you have to completely ignore all other scriptures that tell us that he is eternal, that he is God, that he is not created. Sorry.
For the last time, I never said He is CREATED!
You keep saying that!
the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 3439 Original Word Word Origin monogenhvß from (3441) and (1096) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Monogenes 4:737,606 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech mon-og-en-ace' Adjective Definition
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again ; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 1080 Original Word Word Origin gennavw from a variation of (1085) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Gennao 1:665,114 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech ghen-nah'-o Verb Definition
Psalms 2:7
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
03205 // dly // yalad // yaw-lad' //
a primitive root; TWOT - 867; v
AV - beget 201, bare 110, born 79, bring forth 25, bear 23, travail 16,
midwife 10, child 8, delivered 5, borne 3, birth 2, labour 2,
brought up 2, misc 12; 498
1) to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to bear, bring forth
1a1a) of child birth
1a1b) of distress (simile)
1a1c) of wicked (behaviour)
1a2) to beget
1b) (Niphal) to be born
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to cause or help to bring forth
1c2) to assist or tend as a midwife
1c3) midwife (participle)
1d) (Pual) to be born
1e) (Hiphil)
1e1) to beget (a child)
1e2) to bear (fig. - of wicked bringing forth iniquity)
1f) (Hophal) day of birth, birthday (infinitive)
1g) (Hithpael) to declare one's birth (pedigree)
Not created Born
Paul wrote - Ephesians 5:31-32
31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
What does this scripture mean to you, that Christ and His Bride (the church) shall become one flesh.
Furthermore there are 4 persons involved in this scripture that Paul calls a Great Mystery.
Thanks, JLB
You keep saying that!
the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 3439 Original Word Word Origin monogenhvß from (3441) and (1096) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Monogenes 4:737,606 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech mon-og-en-ace' Adjective Definition
- single of its kind, only
- used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
- used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again ; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 1080 Original Word Word Origin gennavw from a variation of (1085) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Gennao 1:665,114 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech ghen-nah'-o Verb Definition
- of men who fathered children
- to be born
- to be begotten
- of women giving birth to children
- metaph.
- to engender, cause to arise, excite
- in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
- of God making Christ his son
- of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work
Psalms 2:7
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
03205 // dly // yalad // yaw-lad' //
a primitive root; TWOT - 867; v
AV - beget 201, bare 110, born 79, bring forth 25, bear 23, travail 16,
midwife 10, child 8, delivered 5, borne 3, birth 2, labour 2,
brought up 2, misc 12; 498
1) to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to bear, bring forth
1a1a) of child birth
1a1b) of distress (simile)
1a1c) of wicked (behaviour)
1a2) to beget
1b) (Niphal) to be born
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to cause or help to bring forth
1c2) to assist or tend as a midwife
1c3) midwife (participle)
1d) (Pual) to be born
1e) (Hiphil)
1e1) to beget (a child)
1e2) to bear (fig. - of wicked bringing forth iniquity)
1f) (Hophal) day of birth, birthday (infinitive)
1g) (Hithpael) to declare one's birth (pedigree)
Not created Born
Paul wrote - Ephesians 5:31-32
31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
What does this scripture mean to you, that Christ and His Bride (the church) shall become one flesh.
Furthermore there are 4 persons involved in this scripture that Paul calls a Great Mystery.
Thanks, JLB
Ok. Yes, I use created....because that is your ultimate intent. 'Created' means that for a time they were not there, and then they were caused to be. You may be saying that Jesus wasn't 'made' by God like Adam was, but the very nature of 'being born' means we have been brought into existence. For Jesus to truly be Gods 'Son'...in the sense you are talking of, then God had to exist before Jesus. This is not what scripture teaches...it teaches that Jesus is eternal...that He, and The Father, and The Spirit have co-existed, within the Godhead, for eternity past.
First of all I said The only begotten of The Father. Example Abraham begot Isaac.
That is what the scripture says.
Tell me, why did all of mankind have to pay for Adams sin. Why not just Adam. Did the rest of mankind exist at the time of Adam's transgression?
Or how could the Levites pay tithes to Melchizedek, so to speak.
Maybe you should define eternal.
JLB
That is what the scripture says.
Tell me, why did all of mankind have to pay for Adams sin. Why not just Adam. Did the rest of mankind exist at the time of Adam's transgression?
Or how could the Levites pay tithes to Melchizedek, so to speak.
Maybe you should define eternal.
JLB
How about this....why don't you define both 'begotten' with regards to Jesus. You keep saying I'm missing your point...and maybe I am, but dude....you really aren't do a flash job of explaining yourself. You say Jesus was 'begot' by the Father...just as Abraham begot Isaac....which means, to me, that you are saying that The Father genetically 'begot' the Son...as in, Jesus was given birth to. Every time I try and clarify what you are actually saying, what you really believe, you say, 'no, you're getting it wrong'....and then ask me to define some other random point. Enough. Either explain fully what you are talking about, or we are finished here.
Plus...eternal?? Seriously...you want me to define 'eternal'. How about 'forever'. What's that...you want me to define 'forever'...a time with no beginning and no end. Outside of time, existing without beginning or end.
Plus...eternal?? Seriously...you want me to define 'eternal'. How about 'forever'. What's that...you want me to define 'forever'...a time with no beginning and no end. Outside of time, existing without beginning or end.
OK.
For me to try and define eternal spiritual realities with human words would be a joke, at best.
How would I describe someone with no age?
I am only able to use natural realities that mirror or reflect the truth of spiritual realities to try and convey the truth of God's Word as it is written.
I refuse to go outside the boundaries of what the Word says, even though to you it may seem that is what I'm doing.
I see in part. The part that I do see, I refuse to just ignore or explain away because it goes against the grain of conventional doctrinal understanding.
Let's get back to the scriptures that I am asking you comment on.
I gave the strongs definition for begotten, which basically boils down to born. of child birth, of women giving birth to children...
I believe Jesus Christ is UNCREATED, ETERNAL GOD. The Word was with God.
Now. lets discuss what you see in this scripture. I see in part, we have the mind of Christ!
Ephesians 5:31-32
31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
What does this scripture mean to you, that Christ and His Bride (the church) shall become one flesh. Spirit beings with glorified bodies.
Furthermore there are 4 persons involved in this scripture that Paul calls a Great Mystery.
What truths do you see in this scripture.
Thanks, JLB
The problem here is that none of you read what is written. Christ was from the beginning with the Father and since the Father is Spirit He did not walk with Adam in the Garden, but Christ did. Christ can manafest as flesh and blood while the Father is purely Spirit. The Father's Spirit passed over Mary and impregnated her with a flesh and blood child, purely human in nature. From the womb He had a connection to the Father which He lost a the cross. "Father why has thou forsaken me" was the question ask. This is when He was begotten of the Father, not at the beginning. Christ is the physical form of God and the Father is the Spiritual form of God and the mistranslated Holy Ghost is the many Spirits of the Father as He is capable of manifesting His Spirit in many forms.
Gen 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
KJV
This scripture does not say the Holy Ghost it states clearly the Spirit of God and the words are the same as those translated Holy Ghost. Saying that there is a trinity is not scriptual as the God head is only two and the third person is not a person, but the Spirit of God. The translators were form the Catholic Church and slanted everthing toward their doctrine and their errors are apparent if you study the original meanings of the words. I hope this clears up the question.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
Gen 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
KJV
This scripture does not say the Holy Ghost it states clearly the Spirit of God and the words are the same as those translated Holy Ghost. Saying that there is a trinity is not scriptual as the God head is only two and the third person is not a person, but the Spirit of God. The translators were form the Catholic Church and slanted everthing toward their doctrine and their errors are apparent if you study the original meanings of the words. I hope this clears up the question.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
Come now ! God is more than just the Spirit.
The Spirit is one.
God is another.
The Son is another.
And the Spirit can be in all.
Mr. Rosenberger,
I provided scripture to back up my point, now it is your turn to do so, without corrupting the original language meanings. As I stated the translation was by Catholic priests and they needed to follow their doctrine with their translation.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
I provided scripture to back up my point, now it is your turn to do so, without corrupting the original language meanings. As I stated the translation was by Catholic priests and they needed to follow their doctrine with their translation.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
And yet you asked me to...so I wonder at your point.
Wow. You do know that your 'understanding' is equal to what we'd call a cult. You are far outside the boundaries of orthodox Christianity. I don't care if you want to believe something, that is up to you. I don't even mind you coming onto a Christian board to talk of what you believe...within reason, especially if you are in fact enquiring as to orthodoxy. But to come here and to say that your beliefs are 'Christian'....heresy at best. And I do not use that word lightly.
You 'claim' that Jesus is eternal, but then you turn around and state that he was 'begotten' ...given birth to, physically, by God the Father and the Holy Spirit (who you say is female) ,both claims are mutually exclusive...He was either given life by the Father, or He is eternal...as in, He never had a beginning. Your supposition is in line with a pagan religion, plain and simple. Even if you could support your idea of the Spirit's gender with scripture, you are violating every single intent and context we get from the word, by proclaiming that Jesus is the offspring of the other two members of the Godhead.The Trinity, the relationship between the three members, is one of the unshakable doctrines of Christianity. You want to violate that doctrine, fine, but do not call yourself a Christian.
Mmmhmmm, and by this line of reasoning God the Father is a giant chicken.
You do realise that symbolism is created and used by God in scripture...for our good and wisdom and His glory?? You may want to look into that...the bible actually has a lot to say that you appear to be missing.
So what...you're talking a Godhead of 4? The Father and The Spirit creating (oh, sorry...'giving birth' to, or 'be-getting', if you like) Jesus, and then welcoming his eventual bride, the Church? If this is how you truly see scripture, then you are twisting and perverting it's holy meaning...big time. Indeed the Church is Christ's bride...and right now, doctrinally, you are out at a bar wearing a low cut blouse. Harsh...I know, but so is what you are doing to the Trinity...
Remember, this thread was started by you. I have pointed out scriptures to you that suggest God [Elohim - The Eternal Godhead] as well as the bride of Christ could have feminine attributes.
You in turn, as a representative of this forum have arrogantly and sarcastically tried your best to belittle the points I have made and most recently when asked about a scripture you have said
"and by this line of reasoning God the Father is a giant chicken."
If that is what you get from this scripture, it's no wonder you are frustrated!
1 - The bible uses the word begotten. Begotten is clearly a term of birth, a father begets a son! Again this is scripture.
2 - please, just simply discuss this scripture with me.
Ephesians 5:31-32
31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
What does this scripture mean to you, that Christ and His Bride (the church) shall become one flesh. Spirit beings with glorified bodies.
In this mystery, Paul likens the church as the "bride" of Christ and insinuates that they will be married and become "One Flesh".
Likewise, Paul's selection of scripture here also indicates a family, a father, mother, son and soon to be wife.
Please comment on this scripture.
Thanks, JLB
No, I'm far from confused...the chicken reference came from following your reasoning to it's conclusive end.
You say that because the bible uses the word 'father', 'son', 'begot', 'bride'...and so on, that we must take those words exactly in the connotation that we use them today. This is simply not so. Words have symbolic weight. My point was that if we were to follow your belief system, we must then also acknowledge that God was a hen, or eagle....
How precious is your steadfast love, O God!
The children of mankind take refuge in the shadow of your wings. (Psalm 36:7)
Be merciful to me, O God, be merciful to me,
for in you my soul takes refuge;
in the shadow of your wings I will take refuge,
till the storms of destruction pass by. (Psalm 57:1)
Like an eagle that stirs up its nest,
that flutters over its young,
spreading out its wings, catching them,
bearing them on its pinions,
the LORD alone guided him,
no foreign god was with him. (Deuteronomy 32:11-12)
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! (Matthew 23:37)
So either we follow your hermeneutics, which leads to faulty understanding of scripture, or we allow that God uses symbolic language to describe His relationship with His people and within the Godhead. You cannot have it both ways, and you cannot accuse me of being arrogant for saying so. It is simple truth and reason, nothing more.
Sigh. Okay. When a man gets married to a woman, they leave their parents and live together. Hence the term man and father and mother, son, etc. Pretty simple and straight forth.
When we come to the church being Christ's bride, we come to that symbolism. Jesus, as always, and in all things, is our example. In a human marriage, we look to him for how to live. Husbands are to be the head, as Christ is the head of the church. This doesn't mean that men are literally the head and have no body...without symbolism involved, you cannot make these scriptures work, they become ridiculous, so you push them in ways that make them heretical...as you have done.
We also need to look at the whole passage. It's clear that Paul is talking about how in a marriage we model the sacrificial behaviour of Christ...
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.
“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. (Ephesians 5:22-33)
The covenant of marriage is an echo of the covenant between God and His people. This passage outlines the ultimate responsibilities of both husband and wife within this covenant, and also highlights what Jesus has already done for the Church.
I must confess to being profoundly disturbed by what you are proposing by this text. You are holding so tightly to reading this so literally, I'm afraid you are actually suggesting that once Jesus has his 'marriage supper of the Lamb'...marries his 'bride', that the marriage will then be consummated, just as human marriage is. After all, you are claiming that Jesus will actually marry us all...a human marriage, rather than the covenant the bible is talking about. How on earth do you honestly manage to pull that intent from scripture? You do realise that to follow that logically to the end, for this to end up one big happy family, with God the Father, the Spirit, who is mother, the son happily married to the 4th member of the godhead...the church...that you are allowing for the kind of relationship that directly violates Gods edicts? I'm not going to say it outright...I cannot bring myself. But earlier you said you didn't care if male Christians were disturbed by the prospect of 'marrying' Christ (post #23).
Not only are your conclusions and logic faulty and irrational, but they boarder on the worst kind of heresy I've ever come across.
So either we follow your hermeneutics, which leads to faulty understanding of scripture, or we allow that God uses symbolic language to describe His relationship with His people and within the Godhead. You cannot have it both ways, and you cannot accuse me of being arrogant for saying so. It is simple truth and reason, nothing more.
The problem with your choice of scripture is that The Lord does have wings. So you have made my point. Thanks.
The Angel of The Lord is The Lord Jesus Christ! The Angel of The Lord has wings!
Exodus 3:1-6
1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." 5 Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground." 6 Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
This is a great mystery but I speak of Christ and the Church.
From the beginning of this discussion you have not given one relevant answer to the scriptures I have used to point to the fact that there just might be some truth in scripture that you may have overlooked.
Why even start this thread titled "Is The Holy Spirit a He, She or It" if you are not willing to explore what others see in the scriptures.
Why is The Jerusalem from above called our Mother?
Why so much scripture about a bride and a marriage?
Why does The Lord use this language?
Why does the scripture say Let Us Make man in Our image, both male and female?
What did Paul understand about this that inspired him to write -
"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Wow you did even know The Angel of The Lord has wings.
I wonder what else your presumption has blinded you to?
JLB
:blink: :unsure: 
Oh. My. Goodness. I'm sorry, I really am, but I have reached the end. Your are, without a doubt, the most misguided and lost man I've come across. Truly, your interpretation of scripture sounds like a Japanese animated monstrosity.
Lets recap, shall we??
God the Father and The Holy Spirit...we'll call 'her' Asherah, for your benefit...got together in the biblical sense and 'begot' Jesus, the Son. The Son goes on to claim his 'bride' the Church, whom he will then consummate this marriage with. So what you're saying is that Jesus gets himself a harem, and indulges in relationships that will make all Christian men run screaming. Yep, that sounds biblical to me.
You. Are. Not. A. Christian. Stop deluding yourself, you have no idea who God is and I cannot imagine Jesus will look kindly on your views of his future behaviour, especially since they are in direct opposition to what is in scripture.
Oh. My. Goodness. I'm sorry, I really am, but I have reached the end. Your are, without a doubt, the most misguided and lost man I've come across. Truly, your interpretation of scripture sounds like a Japanese animated monstrosity.
Lets recap, shall we??
God the Father and The Holy Spirit...we'll call 'her' Asherah, for your benefit...got together in the biblical sense and 'begot' Jesus, the Son. The Son goes on to claim his 'bride' the Church, whom he will then consummate this marriage with. So what you're saying is that Jesus gets himself a harem, and indulges in relationships that will make all Christian men run screaming. Yep, that sounds biblical to me.
You. Are. Not. A. Christian. Stop deluding yourself, you have no idea who God is and I cannot imagine Jesus will look kindly on your views of his future behaviour, especially since they are in direct opposition to what is in scripture.
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