Love Your Enemies

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Mighty Bear

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Matthew 17:24 ESV When they came to Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax went up to Peter and said, "Does your teacher not pay the tax?"

Matthew 17:25 ESV He said, "Yes." And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tax? From their sons or from others?"

Matthew 17:26 ESV And when he said, "From others," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free.

Matthew 17:27 ESV However, not to give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for me and for yourself."
 

Mighty Bear

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Mark 3:27 ESV But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.

Matthew 12:29 ESV Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.

Mark 3:28 ESV "Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter,

Mark 3:29 ESV but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--

AMEN
 
Apr 24, 2012
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Is it Love Your Enemies or Serve Your Enemies or Hate Your Enemy or Neglect Your Enemy ?

You may look at two translations of a part of a bible. A translation by me and one from The Darby Translation.


Before you compare you may need me to tell you that benefitting people sometimes is not the same as doing like they want you to and being silent may be beneficial as speaking a word to someone. Sometimes doing what a person doesn't want you to do is beneficial for everyone including yourself and serving.


A time to be silent is if you guess by someones words or actions they don't want to help you and no-one else mostly benefits by you speaking.


To help be silent you may need to keep your top lip and bottom lip touching and try not to screw your lips up.


The translation by me next.


You heard it said serve your neighbour and neglect your enemy. Different to it I say to you serve your enemies, benefit those who curse you, work for those who neglect you, and pray for those who resent you and persecute you so you may be the sons of your Father who is in the heavens, because he makes his sun rise on harmful and righteous and sends rain on just and unjust.


Darby Translation next.


Ye have heard that it has been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour and hate thine enemy.


But *I* say unto you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who insult you and persecute you,

that ye may be the sons of your Father who is in the heavens; for he makes his sun rise on evil and good, and sends rain on just and unjust.


Matthew 5: 43, 44, and 45.
 

Strat

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The only legitimate enemies are those who hate you for your faith,the only legitimate suffering is that which comes from living a holy life in a fallen world...by legitimate i don't mean real,all enemies and suffering are real but its the suffering we endure for our faith in Jesus that stores for us treasures in heaven...if someone hates me because i have sinned against them there is no reward for enduring them or i suffer because of my own foolishness there is no reward...i still must endure,forgive ect etc but there is no reward.

Enemies often come from being associated with the wrong people and being in places we should not be in...don't associate with anyone you don't have peace about and don't go anywhere that you wouldn't want God to find you there....you will still have enemies because they are as sure as death and taxes but the odds will be in your favor.
 

aspen

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Everyone suffers in this life. Christianity merely gives us a purpose for our suffering. I would rather suffer learning how to love perfectly than suffer as a lost sinner.
 

lawrance

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Love ? you would give your child a smack on the rear end. would you not ? for it's own good. this would be because you love them. and if you just let them do something that could do them serious harm, would you just sit back. :wacko:
The same with an adult you could say, so what to you think you do, hey ! :eek: and then give him a clip under the ear. and this does not mean that you do not love the person at all.

The work of Satan would be to let them go and then sit back and watch all the problems grow. :rolleyes:
 

veteran

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The DVD called Machine Gun Preacher just came out this past week. It's a true story about an ex-biker that turned to Christ Jesus, and then went to Sudan and saw the shameless murdering of innocent people, with their children being taken as slaves and for the sex market. Childers determined to do something about it after the orphanage he built there was attacked by rebel war lords (while he was there), and ever since he has been saving many of those little children that would have fallen into abuse otherwise. And he is doing that through the use of armed response against those violent murderous rebels allied with radical Islam.

Radical Islam and the drug-war lords know very well how much of a threat Childers is, because by God saving many of those African children through him, and their being given a chance to understand God's Ways, those children will grow up knowing the Truth and will have the God-given strength to eventually oust those murderous rebels and radical terrorists who use Islamic belief as an excuse to do acts for the devil.
 

Strat

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Love ? you would give your child a smack on the rear end. would you not ? for it's own good. this would be because you love them. and if you just let them do something that could do them serious harm, would you just sit back. :wacko:
The same with an adult you could say, so what to you think you do, hey ! :eek: and then give him a clip under the ear. and this does not mean that you do not love the person at all.

The work of Satan would be to let them go and then sit back and watch all the problems grow. :rolleyes:


Welcome to the "love" of the 21st century where it feels good to feel good about feeling good about making others feel good while they make you feel good about being good....whether any of you are any good or not.
 

veteran

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Welcome to the "love" of the 21st century where it feels good to feel good about feeling good about making others feel good while they make you feel good about being good....whether any of you are any good or not.

Welcome to the 21st century where many of God's people are so dumbed down by Socialist doctrines to have become wimps that aren't willing to make a stand for Christ Jesus, let alone anything else except wanting "smooth things" preached in their ears so they can retire to their 'things' and feel good about it.
 

Axehead

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Veteran,

I'm a Veteran, too. I assume that's what your handle means. I was saved while in the military. Take a look at this article and maybe when you are finished you think twice before calling your fellow brothers and sisters, WIMPS.

Nonresistance is a principle taught in the Scriptures. The word "nonresistance" is coined from the words of our Lord, when He said, "But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil, but whoso­ever smites thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." From the very origin of the Anabaptist Movement, nonresistance was one of the chief pillars of its doctrinal belief. The historian, Robert Proud, says that the Anabaptists "hold it not becoming those who follow Christ, to bear arms or fight, because they say their true Master has forbidden his disciples to resist evil."

Nonresistance is really a result of the doctrine of grace. Certainly those who have become recipients of God's grace In their own lives, should show the same grace toward their fellow­men. God displayed His grace toward us while we were yet sinners. He loved us when we were enemies, and just so we are to love our enemies, and to display grace toward those who per­secute us.

The principle of nonresistance must be practiced in times of peace as well as in times of war. The Christian must be careful not to take revenge. The Scriptures teach against retaliation with the tongue, and against suing at the law. The early Christians were commended because they took joyfully "the spoiling of their goods" Hebrews 10:34. They refused to resist evil; they didn't fight back; they knew that they had a heritage in Heaven that the spoilers couldn't touch.

1. PRINCIPLES OF THE DOCTRINE
Every teaching has some basic principles upon which it is built. We want to name three principles that underlie the doctrine of nonresistance.

(1) The kingdom of Christ is not of this world.
There are two kingdoms of men in the world; those who have been regenerated by faith in Jesus Christ, and those who are unregenerate. Jesus says, "My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight" John 18:36. Christ's kingdom is made up of those who have experienced the saving grace of God in their lives. His kingdom is not supported by armies and maintained by taxes: Rather, it is a kingdom composed of persons who voluntarily believe in Jesus Christ, and seek to be­come like Him in their daily character and conduct. One who is a member of Christ's kingdom is instructed to bless his persecu­tors, and to pray for evildoers, and to love his enemies. And if you love a man, you are not going to put a bullet through him, nor ram a bayonet into his body, nor drop bombs on him. The standards of Christ's kingdom are different from the standards of the kingdoms of this world. One who claims to submit to Christ's kingship, will find that the army, the navy and the air force are not for him.

Because Christ's kingdom is not of this world, the early Christians refused to participate in military service. Tertullian says of the legions of the Roman army, "Not a Christian could be found among them." In the early days of Christianity, the Church said, "If they wish to be baptized in the Lord, let them cease from military service, or not be received." The historian, C. J. Cadoux says that no Christian after his conversion "ever thought of enlisting in the army, until nearly two hundred years after Christ." The early Christians recognized that Christ's kingdom is not of this world, and that His standards are much higher than the standards of the world-kingdoms-and therefore nonresistance was believed and practiced by the entire church.

(2) The spirit of Christ is not of this world.
Jesus came into a Samaritan village one day and the Bible says that the folks there didn't receive Him. When James and John saw this, they wanted to call fire down from heaven to consume these people. But this was all contrary to the spirit of Christ, and it must have sorely grieved Him. Luke 9:55 says, "But (Jesus) turned and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of, for the Son of Man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save Them." Taking the lives of human beings is contrary to the spirit of Christ.

General Leslie McNair (in a New York Times article) described the attitudes and the spirit promoted in the armed services. He says, "Our soldiers must have a fighting spirit; if you call that hating enemies, then we must hate with every fiber of our being. We must lust for battle; we must scheme and plan night and day to kill; we must hit harder and harder; we must become tougher and tougher; the avowed purpose of the army is to make killers out of every soldier." Can you reconcile such an attitude with the teachings and the spirit of Jesus?

One young man who had been in the army during World War II, tells how one of his buddies in training was kind of softhearted. When they were training, they were to drive their bayonets into the stomachs of a dummy victim. This fellow was kind of slow and timid about the whole thing, and finally the officer lost his patience, swore at the young fellow, and ordered him to get up in front of that dummy and "cut out his guts." He reminded him that this was war, and not a Sunday School picnic, and that every man in the camp was there to learn how to kill Germans.

It's impossible to have the spirit of Christ within, and at the same time bear arms. The carnal sword and the spirit of Jesus do not point in the same direction.

(3) The methods of Christ are not of this world. Paul says in 2 Cor. 10:3, 4, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds." Jesus endured much reviling and persecution when He was here on earth, and yet never once did He use carnal weapons for defense. And the same thing can be said for true Christians down through the centuries. They have won their battles by using the breastplate of righteousness, and the shield of faith, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.

The Christian doesn't use carnal weapons, but this does not mean that he is helpless in the face of evil and unrighteousness. Take the weapon of prayer for example. When (during the perse­cutions of the early church) Peter was cast into prison, the Bible says, "Prayer was made without ceasing, of the Church, unto God for him." The people prayed. Here the power of prayer was pitted against the power of the armed might of the Roman Empire-and those who prayed won the battle! The iron gate opened, and Peter was set free. More things are wrought by prayer than this world dreams of.

Another powerful weapon used by the believer, is the practice of deeds of kindness. Jesus says, "Do good unto them that hate you." Paul puts it this way: "If your enemy hunger, feed him." We have a beautiful illustration of the victory of kindness over evil in 2 Kings 6. The Syrian army had been delivered into the hands of Israel through the intervention of the prophet Elisha. And when the king of Israel saw that the enemy had been delivered into his hand, he said to Elisha, "Shall I smite them?" And he said again, a second time, "Shall I smite them?" This may have been the most natural course of action, but Elisha said, "Thou shalt not smite them, (but) set bread and water before them that they may eat and drink, and go to their master." Elisha said, "Feed them and let them go." Show them kindness, he said. And that's what the king of Israel did. And you know, there's an interesting postscript to this story: 2 Kings 6:23 says, "So the bands of Syria came no more into the land of Israel."

The Christian's weapons are spiritual. He conquers with the power of the Cross. Menno Simons used to say, "Our fortress is Christ, our sword is the Word of God, our victory is faith in the Almighty. We let swords of iron and steel to those who consider human blood equal to swine's blood." The Christian has spiritual weapons.

These have been principles upon which the doctrine of non­resistance is based. The kingdom of Christ, the spirit of Christ and the methods of Christ are not of this world.

2. PROBLEMS OF THE DOCTRINE
Most every doctrine carries with it some related Matters that seem to be problems. We want to look primarily at the problem of Israel's practice in Old Testament days. The Old Testament fre­quently tells about the wars of Israel, and many of these wars were authorized and commanded by God. It's hard for the Christ­ian to reconcile this with the command to "resist not evil" in the New Testament. Jesus said the Scriptures cannot be broken, and they do not contradict themselves, and so the problem seems to be very real.

There are at least three things we must remember here:
(1) Israel was a nation of this world, while the Church is a spiritual nation not of this world. Israel was a nation just like any other nation, except that God had chosen her for a special purpose. The Israelites lived in a particular location on earth; they had boundaries to their possessions; they maintained a gov­ernment, with a capital city, a throne, a king, and a royal family. And to maintain this nation in the land, God permitted the use of force. But the Church is not such a nation. The Church is a people called out of darkness into the light of the Gospel, from every land and every nation. There's no particular geographical location; there are no boundaries to maintain; there's no capital city; there's no regal throne. Israel was a nation; the Church is not such a nation.

(2) Israel was not a regenerated people, while the Church is composed of those who are regenerate. Romans 8:3,4 says, "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh; that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Israel could not perform the righteousness of the law, for she walked after the flesh. But Christians have been re­generated, and thus are equipped for a new kind of life, and they are called upon to follow a much higher standard than the Old Testament law.

(3) Israel operated under the dispensation of law, while the Church is living during the dispensation of grace. Jesus says, "Ye have heard that it was said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, but I say unto you, that ye resist not evil, but if any man shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." This is an extension that Christ Himself made. He participated in giving the Old Testament law, and certainly He has the right to broaden it. Someone says, "But God never changes, and if God doesn't change, then He can't approve war in the Old Testament, and condemn it in the New Testament." But this is a faulty argu­ment. It's true that God's character never changes, but His methods do change from time to time, from age to age, from dispensa­tion to dispensation. The relationship between the Old and New Testaments is a study that requires more space than we will take here, but remember that the truths of the Old Testa­ment receive a new and deeper significance in the New Tes­tament, in light of Calvary and Pentecost. The New Testament is the Christian's final authority for faith and conduct. If we are to have a true understanding of the will of God, we must always accept the New Testament interpretation of the Old Testament.

Some folks have a problem accepting the doctrine of non­resistance, however, because of a few statements Jesus made, as recorded in the New Testament.
Jesus said, for example, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword." But here the context clearly shows that the word "sword" is a figurative word, which indicates the division and persecution and misunderstand­ing that will arise in families and communities when there are those members of the family or community who follow Jesus. The parallel reference in Luke 12:51 says, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you nay, but rather division; for from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided; three against two, and two against three." Sometimes Christians will find even members of their own families turning against them.

In another place, Jesus says "He that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip. And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." Luke 22:36. Jesus spoke these words just before He went into the Garden to pray. And just a little later, when the crowd had gathered to take Jesus, Peter used the sword. He smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his ear. But Jesus rebuked him for using the sword, and then He said to him, "All that take the sword shall perish by it." And then Jesus graciously restored the servant's ear. Whatever else Jesus meant by the words, "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one," He certainly did not mean that the dis­ciples were free to injure others with the sword. A dagger such as the disciples carried, was often used to cut wood and to slay animals for food.

There are other problems associated with the doctrine of non­resistance, but the basic principles upon which the doctrine is built, are clear. Each one of the problems that sometimes is asso­ciated with the doctrine, is really only a seeming contradiction.

3. PROTECTIONS FOR THE DOCTRINE
There are always some who try and make a teaching mean something that it was never intended to mean. For the purpose of safeguarding the doctrine of nonresistance, several things should be pointed out.

(1) War is permitted for civil government. Jesus said, "If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight." Jesus recognized that the very nature of the kingdoms of this world, de­mands that they be defended with armed might. The hardness and greed of unconverted human hearts, sometimes seem to under­stand nothing but the language of force. The sons of God can live a life of love for their enemies, but the sons of men are liv­ing under the rule of Satan, and are governed by the law of force. Paul says of the state official (in Romans 13), "He beareth not the sword in vain; for he is a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." The masses of this world will not allow God's Word to control their lives, and therefore they must be held in control by the sword. The state has the authority to punish; it has the right to carry the sword; if there had been no civil auth­ority, only anarchy and chaos would exist, because of the wick­edness of human hearts. Both the Old Testament and the New Testament recognize the authority of the state to maintain order by the use of force. And because we recognize this permission in the Scriptures (for governments to use the sword), we cannot (according to modern use of the term) be called "pacifists." Pacifism covers many types of opposition to warfare. It is Satan's counterfeit for the doctrine of nonresistance. True Christians have never advocated the doctrines of present day pacifism. The pacifist aims to establish a better world by eliminating war; he attempts to bring peace and harmony among the unregenerate nations of earth, by working through political influence; his primary mistake lay in the fact that he believes in the innate goodness of man. One paci­fist group told John F. Kennedy, "We believe there is a divine power in man, that can save the world from war and destruc­tion." But this contradicts the teaching of our Lord when he says, "For from within, out of the heart of man, proceed murders and wickedness" Mark 7:20.

The peace-emphasis promoted by most leaders within the churches of America today, is not the doctrine of nonresistance taught in the Bible. Nonresistance describes the faith and life of those who accept the Scriptures as the revealed will of God, and who cannot participate in warfare because their Lord forbids it. He teaches the law of love. Pacifism, on the other hand, is something different. Roland Bainton says that modern pacifism (as promoted by most civil and religious leaders today), is not based so much on Christian principles, as it is on a mere desire for survival. Many of our leaders object to war, not because of loyalty to Christ and the Scriptures, but because they have a fear of death and destruction in this awful atomic age.

(2) Wars will continue until the end. The Bible does not teach that a time will come during this age, when wars will cease. Daniel 9:26 says literally, "Even unto the time of the end, wars and Desolations are determined." Jesus, when describing the closing days of this age, says there shall be "wars and rumors of wars". In the closing days of this age, the armies of the world, under the lead­ership of the Antichrist, will march against Jerusalem for one final burst of rage against God and His people, and there they shall utterly perish (Joel 3:9-12). The Bible teaches that the nations of the world will be universally armed (not disarmed), as we approach the close of this age.

Our early Anabaptist forefathers were not optimistic about the prospects of peace for this age. Harold S. Bender says that they "saw the whole of history (from the fall of the first Adam, down to the Second Coming of Christ), as a great battle between God and His enemies. There was no humanistic vision of getting rid of war in history." The Christian does not expect that economic justice and political cooperation are going to be ushered in by efforts of unrighteous men. Our hope for changing the world, lies in the coming of Christ, who will "judge among the nations," and usher in a kingdom of peace. In the meantime, the Christian obeys his government, pays his taxes, and respects governmental leaders. And only if the government expressly commands us to do that which God has forbidden, only then do we follow the example of Peter and John, when they said, "We ought to obey God rather than men."

War is a terrible thing. One of the survivors of the atomic blast at Hiroshima describes what she saw. She says, "All the houses were demolished; the crumbled walls stretched for many, many miles; people rushed out from the center of impact; their bodies were burned; their skin was hanging down like rags; their faces were swollen to twice their normal size; people were cry­ing aloud with pain." She says, "I saw someone walking, dragging something along. To my surprise it was his own intestines. His stomach was ripped open, and he was dragging it along as he walked without knowing what he was doing." She continues, "My oldest daughter had only two slight wounds, but a month after the bombing, she died from radiation." A soldier who witnessed the air raids in Germany says he saw people coming out of their shelters-insane, wandering about, running away, not knowing where to go. Thousands were killed. Still others died of disease and cold and starvation." No one can ever measure the suffering and misery and heartaches that have resulted from war. And on the Judg­ment Day, God will hardly look down upon the soldier's bloody hands, and say, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

To serve as a conscientious objector to war may bring ridicule from friends, but one who practices nonresistance in life, can stand before God with clean hands, unstained by human blood. And always remember that "a conscience void of offense before God and man," is a greater reward than any human decor­ation ever offered for bravery on the battlefield. Be grateful to God if your government has provided for alternative service of a constructive nature.

Harold S. Martin
 

veteran

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The disinformationists and pacifists who have taken the Communist-Socialist dunking have misinterpreted our Lord's words in those Scriptures. Jesus was teaching to not resist evil according to a specific situation He called His disciples for, when preaching The Gospel. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not to be forced at the point of a sword or gun; that's the context of what He was talking there.

But in the Luke 22 example where He told His disciples to go buy a sword for those who didn't have one, which was towards the end of His Ministry when they were getting ready to be sent upon the open road, that was a different situation. It involved His giving them the right to self-defense.

See, I'm not preaching about going to war for Christ to force The Gospel upon the world like radical Islam wants to do. I'm talking basic self-defense, of one's person, of one's home and family, and even one's nation if needs be when attacked. If this principle was not in effect even by Christ, then His establishing of the Christian nations of history meant absolutely nothing. And those who died in Christ Jesus to uphold the freedom for the western Christian nations to worship The Father through His Son would have died in vain. So no, I will not... slander the many which died in Christ Jesus to preserve our right to worship God through Jesus Christ to instead follow the Communist-Socialist line.
 

Axehead

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We know the context here is the Last Supper of Jesus Christ with His disciples. And, He is talking about things concerning His death.

He tells the disciples to get a sword.
Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

And they show him 2 swords that they have. Jesus response? "It is enough".

Luk 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Oh, I left out verse 27. Seems that it may be important, too. Maybe, it will give some context to verse 36 and why Jesus says get one (but two are enough). Let's take a look.

Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Hmmm, get a sword so that what has been written about me may come to past, that "I was reckoned with the transgressors".

Let's see where that comes from.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Many use this to mean that he was killed between two criminals, but Jesus is actually linking this to his disciples getting two swords (enough to make them transgressors, especially when Peter assaults an official). No doubt, He was also murdered between two transgressors, too.

Were two swords enough to defend them against the Romans and the Pharisees? NO

Were two swords enough to cause them to be transgressors? Obviously, by Peter's actions, YES.

Did Jesus scold Peter after he used the sword? YES

Institutional Christendom down through the centuries have taken this one verse (and ignored the Lord’s words surrounding this verse) to create man-made doctrines of JUST WAR and also doctrines of SELF-DEFENSE.

Does your New Testament have verses about self-defense or non-resistance? Most Christian doctrines that I know of are built on more than one verse, revealing the confirming nature of multiple Scriptures. I mean, these are pretty important doctrines, so there should be an ample supply of verses for these doctrines.

You don't find these doctrines in persecuted countries today or in the Early Church (pre 250 AD).

These doctrines (like the Rapture) always flourish in materialistic societies.

Axehead


 

veteran

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It's called God's laws that were first given in the Old Testament Books.


1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
(KJV)

Rom 13:1-6
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
(KJV)

Wow! Rulers as the "minister of God" that "beareth not the sword in vain"? You betcha! Do rulers have sherrifs, deputies of the people, those who bear the sword? Yes.

The fact that in 1791, the 2nd Ammendment declaring the American people's right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed was agreed to by God-fearing Christian leaders at that time reveals this new Communist-Leftist-Socialist anti-selfdefense stance as a NEW movement against the historical Christian nations. So take your devilish Communism somewhere else.
 

Strat

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We know the context here is the Last Supper of Jesus Christ with His disciples. And, He is talking about things concerning His death.

He tells the disciples to get a sword.
Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

And they show him 2 swords that they have. Jesus response? "It is enough".

Luk 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Oh, I left out verse 27. Seems that it may be important, too. Maybe, it will give some context to verse 36 and why Jesus says get one (but two are enough). Let's take a look.

Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Hmmm, get a sword so that what has been written about me may come to past, that "I was reckoned with the transgressors".

Let's see where that comes from.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Many use this to mean that he was killed between two criminals, but Jesus is actually linking this to his disciples getting two swords (enough to make them transgressors, especially when Peter assaults an official). No doubt, He was also murdered between two transgressors, too.

Were two swords enough to defend them against the Romans and the Pharisees? NO

Were two swords enough to cause them to be transgressors? Obviously, by Peter's actions, YES.

Did Jesus scold Peter after he used the sword? YES

Institutional Christendom down through the centuries have taken this one verse (and ignored the Lord’s words surrounding this verse) to create man-made doctrines of JUST WAR and also doctrines of SELF-DEFENSE.

Does your New Testament have verses about self-defense or non-resistance? Most Christian doctrines that I know of are built on more than one verse, revealing the confirming nature of multiple Scriptures. I mean, these are pretty important doctrines, so there should be an ample supply of verses for these doctrines.

You don't find these doctrines in persecuted countries today or in the Early Church (pre 250 AD).

These doctrines (like the Rapture) always flourish in materialistic societies.

Axehead

The one thing i have notcied about most pacifist is that they never seem to live anywhere where their pacifism will cost them anything,they seem to prefer living in safety within borders and societies secured for them by wars fought by people they think they are better than......strange how that works isn't it..why not live somewhere where pacifism brings persecution and test yourself to see if you realy have what it takes to be one.
 

Axehead

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May 9, 2012
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The one thing i have notcied about most pacifist is that they never seem to live anywhere where their pacifism will cost them anything,they seem to prefer living in safety within borders and societies secured for them by wars fought by people they think they are better than......strange how that works isn't it..why not live somewhere where pacifism brings persecution and test yourself to see if you realy have what it takes to be one.

How do you know I have not been tested? We are talking about God's Word and what it says. Can't you comment on the Word of God?

By the way, I explained what a Pacifist was earlier in this thread. Jesus was not a Pacifist and neither am I. Jesus did not teach Pacifism, He taught non-resistance. But there are many Jesus' out there, and many pick a Jesus that suits their doctrine.

It's called God's laws that were first given in the Old Testament Books.


1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
(KJV)

Rom 13:1-6
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
(KJV)

Wow! Rulers as the "minister of God" that "beareth not the sword in vain"? You betcha! Do rulers have sherrifs, deputies of the people, those who bear the sword? Yes.

The fact that in 1791, the 2nd Ammendment declaring the American people's right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed was agreed to by God-fearing Christian leaders at that time reveals this new Communist-Leftist-Socialist anti-selfdefense stance as a NEW movement against the historical Christian nations. So take your devilish Communism somewhere else.

The State is an institution ordained by God (Romans 13:1; cf. Daniel 4:17), and that resistance to the State constitutes opposition to the ordinance of God (Romans 13:2). The State acts as God's minister to maintain law and order, peace, and justice, and punish wrongdoers (Romans 13:3-4; cf. Genesis 9:6). Therefore, the Christian is to be in subjection to it (Romans 13:5), and render to it tribute, taxes, fear, and honor (Romans 13:6-7). Whether the government is a monarchy, dictatorship, republic, or democracy is not the question, for the Scriptures declare that "the powers that be are ordained of God." The New Testament principle is unchanging regardless of time, or form of government, for the Apostle Paul commands obedience and submission to the State by the Christians at Rome, although they lived under the most wicked dictators and tyrants of history.

Paul commands Titus to "put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, to speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men" (Titus 3:1-2, cf. verses 3-5). Subjection and obedience to, and respect for, government, as well as other authorities, is the clear Biblical command to the Christian. Jude likewise rebukes those who "despise dominion [government authority, cf. II Peter 2:10], and speak evil of dignities" (Jude 8).

The attitude and practice of the average Christian are reproved by these Scriptures, since most, due to the present-day emphasis upon the "democratic right of freedom of speech," and the encouragement of political party strife, do not hesitate to speak out against their leaders. They level all manner of railing accusations and charges against the God-ordained authorities, a sin carefully avoided even by Michael, the archangel, concerning his encounter with Satan over the body of Moses. "But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee" (Jude 9; Ecclesiastes 10:20; Proverbs 16:27-28).

To those who would seek to excuse or justify their disrespect for those whom God has placed over them with the argument that the United States' Constitution allows them such "freedom of speech" and the "right of petition," I unhesitatingly reply that God denies them such rights, "For it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people" (Acts 23:5; cf. II Peter 2:10-12). Our "constitutional freedom" is to be interpreted in the light of "Christian freedom" which never allows the believer the right to walk contrary to the teachings of Scripture.

Democratic government grants its citizens many "rights" that the Christian, in obedience to the Scriptures, will not exercise (divorce, lawsuits, labor strikes, killing in self-defense, political party strife, drinking, gambling, etc.). In fact, the Scriptures warn against the misuse of freedom (I Peter 2:16, note context, verses I Peter 2:11-25; I Corinthians 6:12; 10:23-24).

The Christian is, therefore, to give honor and respect, and be in humble subjection to all authority. This applies not only to civil authority, but to all in authority—including employer, pastor, or parents. Moreover, contrary to the popular belief, the Christian is not to resist even misused authority of a corrupt State or government.

There has been a tragic neglect of scriptural teaching on the subject, most Christians today are unaware that the main thrust of the New Testament concerning the question of violence, resistance, retaliation, war, and killing is a position of nonresistance. Many deeper truths such as this, which have been neglected and obscured for centuries, are being restored today by the Spirit.

Axehead
 
Apr 24, 2012
56
1
0
People,

I'm not sure what has been stated about religion and worldly government and you may look at what I've added below. In it you may look at “let every soul be subject unto the higher powers,” if thou be an Apostle even, or an Evangelist, or a Prophet, or anything whatsoever, inasmuch as this subjection is not subversive of religion."

Parts of [background=white]THE HOMILIES OF ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM, ARCHBISHOP OF CONSTANTINOPLE, ON THE EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL THE APOSTLE TO THE [/background]
R O M A N S

[background=white]Homily XXIII.[/background]​

Rom. XIII. 1

“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.”

And to show that these regulations are for all, even for priests, and monks, and not for men of secular occupations only, he hath made this plan at the outset, by saying as follows: “let every soul be subject unto the higher powers,” if thou be an Apostle even, or an Evangelist, or a Prophet, or anything whatsoever, inasmuch as this subjection is not subversive of religion. And he does not say merely “obey,” but “be subject.” And the first claim such an enactment has upon us, and the reasoning that suiteth the faithful, is, that all this is of God’s appointment.

“For there is no power,” he says, “but of God.” What say you? it may be said; is every ruler then elected by God? This I do not say, he answers. Nor am I now speaking about individual rulers, but about the thing in itself. For that there should be rulers, and some rule and others be ruled, and that all things should not just be carried on in one confusion, the people swaying like waves in this direction and that; this, I say, is the work of God’s wisdom. Hence he does not say, “for there is no ruler but of God;” but it is the thing he speaks of, and says, “there is no power but of God.[sup]1556[/sup] And the powers that be, are ordained of God.” Thus when a certain wise man saith, “It is by the Lord that a man is matched with a woman” (Prov. xix. 14, LXX.), he means this, God made marriage, and not that it is He that joineth together every man that cometh to be with a woman. For we see many that come to be with one another for evil, even by the law of marriage, and this we should not ascribe to God. But as He said Himself, “He which made them at the beginning, made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they twain shall be one flesh.” (Matt. xix. 4, 5; Gen. ii. 24.) And this is what that wise man meant to explain. For since equality of honor does many times lead to fightings, He hath made many governments and forms of subjection; as that, for instance, of man and wife, that of son and father, that of old men and young, that of bond and free,[sup]1557[/sup] that of ruler and ruled, that of master and disciple. And why are you surprised in the case of mankind, when even in the body He hath done the same thing? For even here He hath not made all parts of equal honor, but He hath made one less and another greater, and some of the limbs hath He made to rule and some to be ruled. And among the unreasoning creatures one may notice this same principle, as amongst bees, amongst cranes, amongst herds of wild cattle. And even the sea itself is not without this goodly subordination; for there too many of the clans are ranged under one among the fishes, and are led thus as an army, and make long expeditions from home. For anarchy, be where it may, is an evil, and a cause of confusion.

http://www.ccel.org/...5#vii.xxv-p17.1

If you want to change background to white on CCEL web page then look to top right hand corner of web page for small mechanical symbol and click on it and choose and you may change font size.

To look at the contents of the works, look towards top left hand corner for the lines symbol next to Prev and click on it.
 

Strat

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Mar 25, 2012
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How do you know I have not been tested? We are talking about God's Word and what it says. Can't you comment on the Word of God?

By the way, I explained what a Pacifist was earlier in this thread. Jesus was not a Pacifist and neither am I. Jesus did not teach Pacifism, He taught non-resistance. But there are many Jesus' out there, and many pick a Jesus that suits their doctrine.



The State is an institution ordained by God (Romans 13:1; cf. Daniel 4:17), and that resistance to the State constitutes opposition to the ordinance of God (Romans 13:2). The State acts as God's minister to maintain law and order, peace, and justice, and punish wrongdoers (Romans 13:3-4; cf. Genesis 9:6). Therefore, the Christian is to be in subjection to it (Romans 13:5), and render to it tribute, taxes, fear, and honor (Romans 13:6-7). Whether the government is a monarchy, dictatorship, republic, or democracy is not the question, for the Scriptures declare that "the powers that be are ordained of God." The New Testament principle is unchanging regardless of time, or form of government, for the Apostle Paul commands obedience and submission to the State by the Christians at Rome, although they lived under the most wicked dictators and tyrants of history.

Paul commands Titus to "put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, to speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men" (Titus 3:1-2, cf. verses 3-5). Subjection and obedience to, and respect for, government, as well as other authorities, is the clear Biblical command to the Christian. Jude likewise rebukes those who "despise dominion [government authority, cf. II Peter 2:10], and speak evil of dignities" (Jude 8).

The attitude and practice of the average Christian are reproved by these Scriptures, since most, due to the present-day emphasis upon the "democratic right of freedom of speech," and the encouragement of political party strife, do not hesitate to speak out against their leaders. They level all manner of railing accusations and charges against the God-ordained authorities, a sin carefully avoided even by Michael, the archangel, concerning his encounter with Satan over the body of Moses. "But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee" (Jude 9; Ecclesiastes 10:20; Proverbs 16:27-28).

To those who would seek to excuse or justify their disrespect for those whom God has placed over them with the argument that the United States' Constitution allows them such "freedom of speech" and the "right of petition," I unhesitatingly reply that God denies them such rights, "For it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people" (Acts 23:5; cf. II Peter 2:10-12). Our "constitutional freedom" is to be interpreted in the light of "Christian freedom" which never allows the believer the right to walk contrary to the teachings of Scripture.

Democratic government grants its citizens many "rights" that the Christian, in obedience to the Scriptures, will not exercise (divorce, lawsuits, labor strikes, killing in self-defense, political party strife, drinking, gambling, etc.). In fact, the Scriptures warn against the misuse of freedom (I Peter 2:16, note context, verses I Peter 2:11-25; I Corinthians 6:12; 10:23-24).

The Christian is, therefore, to give honor and respect, and be in humble subjection to all authority. This applies not only to civil authority, but to all in authority—including employer, pastor, or parents. Moreover, contrary to the popular belief, the Christian is not to resist even misused authority of a corrupt State or government.

There has been a tragic neglect of scriptural teaching on the subject, most Christians today are unaware that the main thrust of the New Testament concerning the question of violence, resistance, retaliation, war, and killing is a position of nonresistance. Many deeper truths such as this, which have been neglected and obscured for centuries, are being restored today by the Spirit.

Axehead
How do you know I have not been tested? We are talking about God's Word and what it says. Can't you comment on the Word of God?

By the way, I explained what a Pacifist was earlier in this thread. Jesus was not a Pacifist and neither am I. Jesus did not teach Pacifism, He taught non-resistance. But there are many Jesus' out there, and many pick a Jesus that suits their doctrine.



The State is an institution ordained by God (Romans 13:1; cf. Daniel 4:17), and that resistance to the State constitutes opposition to the ordinance of God (Romans 13:2). The State acts as God's minister to maintain law and order, peace, and justice, and punish wrongdoers (Romans 13:3-4; cf. Genesis 9:6). Therefore, the Christian is to be in subjection to it (Romans 13:5), and render to it tribute, taxes, fear, and honor (Romans 13:6-7). Whether the government is a monarchy, dictatorship, republic, or democracy is not the question, for the Scriptures declare that "the powers that be are ordained of God." The New Testament principle is unchanging regardless of time, or form of government, for the Apostle Paul commands obedience and submission to the State by the Christians at Rome, although they lived under the most wicked dictators and tyrants of history.

Paul commands Titus to "put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, to speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men" (Titus 3:1-2, cf. verses 3-5). Subjection and obedience to, and respect for, government, as well as other authorities, is the clear Biblical command to the Christian. Jude likewise rebukes those who "despise dominion [government authority, cf. II Peter 2:10], and speak evil of dignities" (Jude 8).

The attitude and practice of the average Christian are reproved by these Scriptures, since most, due to the present-day emphasis upon the "democratic right of freedom of speech," and the encouragement of political party strife, do not hesitate to speak out against their leaders. They level all manner of railing accusations and charges against the God-ordained authorities, a sin carefully avoided even by Michael, the archangel, concerning his encounter with Satan over the body of Moses. "But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee" (Jude 9; Ecclesiastes 10:20; Proverbs 16:27-28).

To those who would seek to excuse or justify their disrespect for those whom God has placed over them with the argument that the United States' Constitution allows them such "freedom of speech" and the "right of petition," I unhesitatingly reply that God denies them such rights, "For it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people" (Acts 23:5; cf. II Peter 2:10-12). Our "constitutional freedom" is to be interpreted in the light of "Christian freedom" which never allows the believer the right to walk contrary to the teachings of Scripture.

Democratic government grants its citizens many "rights" that the Christian, in obedience to the Scriptures, will not exercise (divorce, lawsuits, labor strikes, killing in self-defense, political party strife, drinking, gambling, etc.). In fact, the Scriptures warn against the misuse of freedom (I Peter 2:16, note context, verses I Peter 2:11-25; I Corinthians 6:12; 10:23-24).

The Christian is, therefore, to give honor and respect, and be in humble subjection to all authority. This applies not only to civil authority, but to all in authority—including employer, pastor, or parents. Moreover, contrary to the popular belief, the Christian is not to resist even misused authority of a corrupt State or government.

There has been a tragic neglect of scriptural teaching on the subject, most Christians today are unaware that the main thrust of the New Testament concerning the question of violence, resistance, retaliation, war, and killing is a position of nonresistance. Many deeper truths such as this, which have been neglected and obscured for centuries, are being restored today by the Spirit.

Axehead

I guess its the pagans then that we have to thank that the world isn't a thousand times more terrible than it already is and you are guilty of enjoying the fruits of sin as you define it and just as guilty as they are,you need to repent of this sin,the fact that you have the freedom to write any of this is in stark contrast to your position since it was secured for you by others,so once again why not move to some place where writing it would put you in prison or get you executed....as long as you post here i will assume you havn't done that and you are still enjoying ill gotten gains.

I suppose you support slavery and opression of all kinds, i assume you support every type of criminal activity on both sides of the law...in short the complete reign of the dpravity of man with no resistence....carrying your bible of course,which if your position is correct is an empty book of nothing but words with nothing to back it up and no one to stand for the principles printed in it.

Webster's list nonresistence as a synonym for pacifism....there is no difference unless you know more about the lanquage than they do....what you said applies to words as well,people pick the definitions that suit them
 

Axehead

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May 9, 2012
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I don't support sin and neither I nor the Lord Jesus receives condemnation from you.

Do you think you would have felt comfortable in the company of New Testament Believers and maybe even Jesus or would you be scolding them?

Jesus doesn't let us go off in the flesh to right all the world's wrongs.

You cannot address the fact that Jesus (not me) taught non-resistance. You are trying to make it about me so you won't have to face Jesus' words and deal with them.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
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Sorry Axehead - Strat has spoken - you are a pacificist and therefore a heretic. It doesn't matter how many verses you provide and how logical and articulate your posts are explaining the obvious difference between pacifism and non-resistance - Strat has spoken.

Love,

The trolled, gay activist, apostate, heretic :)
 

Axehead

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May 9, 2012
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Sorry Axehead - Strat has spoken - you are a pacificist and therefore a heretic. It doesn't matter how many verses you provide and how logical and articulate your posts are explaining the obvious difference between pacifism and non-resistance - Strat has spoken.

Love,

The trolled, gay activist, apostate, heretic :)

I guess I don't know who Strat is, so I will stick with the Word of God. Jesus was not a Pacifist. Pacifism in many respects practices rebellion against the Scriptures. Much like those that want to bear arms and wipe out God's enemies.

Thanks for your contribution aspen.

Axehead