Can You Lose Your Salvation ?

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neophyte

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There are three ways that you Protestants interpret the meaning of the thousand year “millennium” (and the interpretation leads to answering when you along with most other Protestants think the rapture will occur).

(1) Post-millennialism – this view interprets the “thousand years” as a very long time. This view also holds that God’s kingdom is being advanced in the world by His grace and the world will eventually be Christianized. Then Christ will return at the close of this period during a time of righteousness and peace. The problem with this view is that the Scriptures do not teach that the world will be even relatively Christianized before the Second Coming. For example, in Matt. 13:24-30;36-43, Jesus says the wicked and the righteous will co-exist until the end of the world, when they will be judged, and either inherit eternal life, or be thrown into eternal fire.
(2) Pre-millenialism (also called “millenarianism”) – like post-millennialists, this view also interprets the “thousand years” as a golden age on earth when the world will be Christianized. But they believe that this period will occur after Christ’s second coming, during which time Christ will reign physically on earth. They believe the Final Judgment occurs when the millennium is over. But Scripture does not teach that there is a thousand year span between the Second Coming and Final Judgment. Instead, Jesus said that when He comes a second time in glory, He will immediately repay every man for what he has done. Matt. 16:27. When Jesus comes, He will separate the sheep from the goats and render judgment. Matt. 25:31-46. There is nothing about any period of time between His coming and final judgment.
(3) Amillennialism – this view also interprets the “thousand years” symbolically, but, ulike the pre and post views, not as a golden age on earth. This view believes the millennium is the period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on earth through His Church. This is because the saints who reign with Christ and to whom judgment has been committed are said to be on their thrones in heaven. Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4; 11:16. During this time, satan is bound and cannot hinder the spread of the gospel. Rev. 20:3. This is why, they explain, Jesus teaches the necessity of binding the “strong man” (satan) in order to plunder his house and rescue people from his grip. Matt. 12:29. This is also why, after the disciples preached the gospel and rejoiced that the demons were even subject to them, Jesus declared, “I saw satan fall like lightening from heaven.” Luke 10:18. Nevertheless, during this period, the world will not be entirely Christianized because satan, though bound, is still in some sense able to prowl around and attack souls. cf. 1 Peter 5:8. Of the three, this position is most consistent with Catholic teaching (the pre and post-millennium views have been rejected by the Church).​
2 Thess. 2:1-4 – concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Scripture teaches (and most Protestants believe) that Christ’s coming will be preceded by a time of rebellion, lawlessness and persecution. Protestants often refer to this period as the “tribulation” (although the word “tribulation” cannot be found in the Scripture passages Protestants use to support the “rapture”). So the question is, when will the 1 Thess. 4:16-17 “rapture” occur, in light of the tribulation and Christ’s Second Coming? Here are the three theories previously mentioned:

(1) Post-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur right after the tribulation and immediately before the Second Coming of Christ. This view can be consistent with Scripture and Catholic teaching to the extent it holds that the rapture and Christ’s Second Coming occur together, after the tribulation and the Church Militant on earth. See, for example, Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 1:1-12.
(2) Pre-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture before the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. In Heb. 9:28, it is clear that Christ will appear a second and final time, when he comes in glory to save us. This view also is inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12 where the rapture and the Second Coming occur together.
(3) Mid-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it also requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture during the middle of the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. As seen in Heb. 9:28, Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. The view is also inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12.​
2 Peter 3:8-15 – instead of worrying about when the rapture will occur, Christians should follow Peter’s instruction to repent of their sins, live lives of holiness and godliness, be zealous and at peace, and wait for the Lord’s coming with forbearance and joy!
 

7angels

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if you wish to debate rapture again please take it another thread thanks.

God bless
 

xBluxTunicx82

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A lot of people don't put much logical thought into what they read or hear either. As for the so called 1000 year reign of Christ, why would He bless us in a such a manner only to leave and let the earth be tormented?! I know this isn't your view, but it is unfair to say 'you Protestants', because one can just as easily say 'you Catholiks'...

Remember also that Revelation is in a sense, a key to the scriptures, and although we very much are waiting for certain things to take place, other things have already happened, and some are happening now. Its was a vision of Christ given to John, so we can only imagine the depth of the meaning behind it. Jesus spoke in parables so that only His sheep would hear Him, and I believe Revelation to be the same way. It is easy to think of fantastic stories right out of a sci-fi flick, but that is jumping to conclusions that we are not allowed to!

There was a period of 1000 years in Europe when the people were all following Christ with a theocratic type government, and the Dragon was held by chains, unable to do its work among the people. The Khazars are this dragon, as their usury practices and handling of money often causes socio economic problems in a society.

The way I read it, when Christ returns, He is back...for good. Evil to be trumped by righteousness, and the wicked to be burned before the good seed is stored 'in the barn'
 

7angels

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first i would like to congratulate you on your reply to my post to you. where you actually corrected where you thought i was wrong instead of criticizing me for my post.
 

xBluxTunicx82

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Many times, it is simply about loving Jesus and knowing that He does have those with the desire and capacity for His understanding. I am not afraid to admit my faults nor take criticism, but I find it easy to speak with people if you don't treat them like a complete idiot. And you're welcome btw, just extending a little brotherly love is all :)
 

neophyte

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if you wish to debate rapture again please take it another thread thanks.

God bless

Jesus' Teaching on Losing Salvation
Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.
Matt. 7:21 - all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.
Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for "therefore" is "dia toutos" which means "through this") blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus' grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.
Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God's banquet, but was cast out.
Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.
Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.
Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as "alive again."
John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.
John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.
John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.
John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.
John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.
John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person "continues" to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.
John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father "draws" him. This "drawing" is an ongoing process.
John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, "no one shall snatch them out of my hands," He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.
Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).
Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.
Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.
Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.
Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.
Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.
Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.
Now please tell me where you have a problem in not believing these bible verses.
 

7angels

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i have no problem with the verses just with your interpretation of those scriptures.

Jesus' Teaching on Losing Salvation
Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.
this is referring to how to recognize people doing things God's way and those that do it any other way.
Matt. 7:21 - all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.
this is referring to christian overcomers in Christ and those who are just saved and are happy and content to remain that way.
Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for "therefore" is "dia toutos" which means "through this") blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus' grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.
no this is referring the not offending the Holy Spirit or it will leave us and we are brought to God by the prompting of the Spirit. if the Holy Spirit is offended and leaves then we have no way of being saved. there is more to this but this is enough for now without going too far in depth.
Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God's banquet, but was cast out.
this verse is referring to someone saved who did not choose to do the will of God for their life and so were cast out because this feast is for those that are doing the will and plan of God for their lives.
Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.
this is referring to those that have spiritual knowledge will be given more but those have no spiritual knowledge what he does have he will lose.
Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.
here they are referring to the slothful servant and watchful servant and what will happen to whoever you choose to become..
Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as "alive again."
this is a pretty good explanation
John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.
i agree
John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.
i agree
John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.
correct when you say no one can take us out of God's hand unless we choose it like judas did.
John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.
correct
John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.
this is referring to how God wants us all to be saved
John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person "continues" to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.
belief and obeisance are not the same thing. God has a purpose and plan for all our lives and who do you know are going after and achieving everything God has for them?
John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father "draws" him. This "drawing" is an ongoing process.
correct as we draw near to God he draws near to us.
John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, "no one shall snatch them out of my hands," He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.
correct again.
Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).
Ephesus is the church not ephesians. but you are correct again
Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.
Jesus is referring to them not doing what God told them too and if they changed then Jesus would give them white garments.
Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.
that is good enough interpretation
Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.
correct
Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.
correct
Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.
correct
Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.
correct
Now please tell me where you have a problem in not believing these bible verses.

most of the verses from john down are verses that describe the overcoming Christians in Christ. many christians will not recieve these awards God talks about because they are not overcomers in Christ.

God bless
 

neophyte

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7 angels it is good to see that you agreed with many of the verses that I gave in my last post, [ Actual credit goes to Catholic Apologist John Salza ] but, I can see where you were misunderstanding Mr. Salza's interpretation of many of those verses , so lets try again with--

We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation

Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.
Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.
Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?
Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?
Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your "hope" (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.
2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a "hope" (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.
Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the "hope" (not the certainty) of righteousness.
Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the "hope" to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.
Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.
Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.
Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ's sufferings so that "if possible" he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.
Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and "hope" (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.
Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the "hope" (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.
Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the "hope" of the gospel which you heard.
Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the "hope" (not the certainty) of His glory.
1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of "hope" in Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our "hope" or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of "hope" (not of certainty) of salvation.
2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good "hope" through grace.
1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our "hope" (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.
1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our "hope" (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.
1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her "hope" (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.
2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they "may also obtain salvation." This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.
Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.
Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed "hope," the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life.
Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ's house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our "hope" (not our certainty).
Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of "hope" (not certainty) until the end.
Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the "hope" (not the certainty) that is set before us.
Heb. 6:19 - we have a "hope" that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.
Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better "hope" (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our "hope" without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things "hoped" for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).
Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.
Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.
James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.
1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living "hope" through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
1 Peter 1:13 - set your "hope" (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and "hope" are in God.
1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?
1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the "hope" that is in you.
1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus "hopes" in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love. Again, the above interpretation compiled by Catholic apologist John Salza of "Scripture Catholic"
 

7angels

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this guy you are quoting from is tough to understand at first. he refers to something but leaves it open and explains what those scriptures mean to him instead of what the bible's actual verse states. this guy explains the message but not exactly as it is stated in a bible like the kjb. it is more like the message or living bible that he does his explaining by.

btw why do you want me to see if i agree or disagree with this guy's interpretation of scripture? i don't mind and as a matter of fact i think it is fun.

7 angels it is good to see that you agreed with many of the verses that I gave in my last post, [ Actual credit goes to Catholic Apologist John Salza ] but, I can see where you were misunderstanding Mr. Salza's interpretation of many of those verses , so lets try again with--

We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation

Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.
these veses tell us about Jesus and how he redeemed us back to the Father but say nothing about the way in which we need ti live.
Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
your statement is correct but that scripture's meaning stops after your first sentence.
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
In Scripture, according to the Hebrew and Greek words translated by the word “hope” and according to the biblical usage, hope is an indication of certainty. “Hope” in Scripture means “a strong and confident expectation.” the reason paul still hoped was because Biblically, from the standpoint of the object hoped for, hope is synonymous with salvation and its many blessings, past, present, and future, as promised in Scripture. This is true even with what we have already received as believers because these blessings come under the category of what we cannot see. We may see some of the results, but it still requires faith and hope.
Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.
our hope of what is assured? salvation?
Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?
correct
Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?
not just the jews but isreal. the rest is correct
Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your "hope" (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.
hope is a strong and confident expectation. it can be considered almost a certainty. the rest is correct.
2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a "hope" (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.
hope is the confident expectation, the sure certainty that what God has promised in the Word is true, has occurred, and/or will in accordance with God’s sure Word. the rest is correct.
Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the "hope" (not the certainty) of righteousness.
you make it sound like there is no certainty that we will not always get what we hope for by faith. this is wrong according to scripture.
Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the "hope" to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.
correct
Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.
In the Bible, hope is never a static or passive thing. It is dynamic, active, directive and life sustaining. This is everywhere obvious as we read the Word. Take a concordance, look up the word “hope” and you will find reference after reference pointing out the active results of hope in the lives of those who truly have a biblical hope and live accordingly.
Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.
the spiritual armor of God is a teaching in itself which i will not go into right now but the word tells us that we are in a constant war with satan but that we are already conquors in Christ which means in every circumstance we have already won in every area of life as long as we believe.
Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ's sufferings so that "if possible" he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.
what paul is referring to is that all paul wants now is Christ. paul wants to belong to Christ. In Christ paul is right with God, but paul's being right does not come from following the law. It comes from God through faith. God uses paul's faith in Christ to make himself right with Christ. All paul wants is to know Christ and the power that raised him from death. paul wants to share in Christ's sufferings and be like Christ even in his death. Then there is hope that paul himself will somehow be raised from death. paul may not know how he will be raised but he knows that God will make it will happen.
Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and "hope" (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.
how can we not be certain when we hope? have you never hoped for a thing and knew beyond a doubt that what you hoped for would come about? we have God's word to stand upon which is truth so when we hope and it is in accordance to God's word then what we hope for will come to pass.
Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the "hope" (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.
see the post below the quote.
Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the "hope" of the gospel which you heard.
correct
Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the "hope" (not the certainty) of His glory.
see the post below the quote.
1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of "hope" in Jesus Christ.
correct
1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our "hope" or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
it is those that do the will of God.
1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of "hope" (not of certainty) of salvation.
salvation is assured christians unless we exercise our option to reject it.
2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good "hope" through grace.
correct
1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our "hope" (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.
see the post below the quote.
1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our "hope" (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.
no we toil and strive because we believe in a living God, and Jesus who is our savior
1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her "hope" (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.
our hope is a guarentee no matter what. and when our hope is in God we are alive.
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.
whether they were on theright path to begin with is unknown. do not assume. otherwise you are correct.
2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they "may also obtain salvation." This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.
wrong. this verse is referring to paul doing anything necessary within God's grace that he can do in order to help even one person come to God.
Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.
see the post below the quote.
Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed "hope," the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
not exactly correct he is referring to waiting and seeing his hope being fulfilled. one of his hopes is the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus.
Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life.
see the post below the quote.
Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ's house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our "hope" (not our certainty).
again this is a certainty and not a doubt
Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of "hope" (not certainty) until the end.
again this is a certainty and not a doubt
Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the "hope" (not the certainty) that is set before us.
again this is a certainty and not a doubt
Heb. 6:19 - we have a "hope" that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.
correct
Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better "hope" (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
again this is a certainty and not a doubt
Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our "hope" without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
correct
Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things "hoped" for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).
again this is a certainty and not a doubt
Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.
correct
Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.
correct
James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.
i see nothing about crown of life being part of this verse.
1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living "hope" through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
correct
1 Peter 1:13 - set your "hope" (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
again this is a certainty and not a doubt
1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and "hope" are in God.
correct
1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?
he is talking about becoming mature in salvation. there is more to salvation then just accepting Jesus as your Lord and savior.
1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the "hope" that is in you.
correct
1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus "hopes" in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love. Again, the above interpretation compiled by Catholic apologist John Salza of "Scripture Catholic"
again not quite correct but close. hope becomes assured through our faith and our faith is assured through the hearing of the word. again we also cannot lose our salvation except that we reject Jesus as Lord.

hope when matched with the truth of God's word will always happen. there is no maybe, might, and ect. it is just like if you were going to work you saw someone run out of the building as you were getting out of your car and they run up to you and tell you that your employers are giving away money. you would doubt the validity of what they were saying but would start to get curious about what is going on. but as you started to go in the door another person comes racing out showing you a check and saying how everyone is getting a $50k bonus today. you would still doubt it but you would also be getting a little excited about thinking if what they were saying were really true. then if a 3rd and 4th person come racing out saying the same thing your hope would really start to be on the rise. but after 10, 15 or more people come out of the bosses office as you are waiting in line and tell you the same thing, then you would start to expect to recieve a bonus check for that amount also as you go through the doors to see the boss. hope works the same way. at first we are unsure but as we get more and more confident that the word is true and that what we hope for is in line with the word that we will get what we hope for. then as we learn this concept, we know that no matter what we hope for that without a doubt it will come to pass. paul knew this concept and there was no doubt in his mind that what he hoped for would not come to pass as long as it is in accordance with the word of God.

biblical hope is not an escape from reality or from problems. It doesn’t leave us idle, drifting or just rocking on the front porch. If our hope is biblical and based on God's promises, it will put us in gear. hope changes how we see ourselves, it changes what we value, and it affects what we do with our lives—our talents, time, treasures. hope also gives us rewards like gives us joy and peace, it gives us protection, it gives us strength, courage, boldness, it gives us endurance, comfort, confidence in the face of death, and it gives us confidence in ministry. If you are without Christ, you are without God and without hope. Hope depends on knowing the Word of God, Hope depends on knowing and resting in God’s Grace, and Hope depends on the Spirit Filled life.

ps sorry for the shorter replys towards the middle to the end. it is late and i don't have a lot of time to expand at this time. sorry

God bless
 

neophyte

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7 angels, thank you for responding. I'm not sure if you or xBlux's belief system is based on belief in a doctrine called “once saved, always saved.” Once you are “saved,” – answered an altar call or said a sinner’s prayer and accepted Jesus into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior – then, according to this doctrine, that’s it. That’s all that needs to be done. Your train ticket to Heaven has been punched and there is nothing that can derail that train. Salvation is, in essence, a one–time event that cannot be undone. That’s why believers in this doctrine claim to have “absolute assurance” in their own salvation.
Catholics do not, however, say that they have “a bsolute” assurance of salvation because we do not believe that we have the authority nor the ability to judge ourselves. Paul himself says, in 1 Cor 4:3–5, that he does not judge himself, but it is the Lord who judges him. Paul even says that he is not aware of anything against himself, yet that he is not necessarily acquitted (or saved, in Evangelical terminology). That doesn’t sound like absolute assurance of salvation, does it?
Also, in Phil 3:10–13 and 1 Cor 9:26–27, we don’t see Paul talking in the language of absolute assurance: ”...that, if possible, I may attain the resurrection of the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own…,” and ”...lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” This is not the language of absolute assurance.
God judges us, we do not judge ourselves. At any moment in our lives, we still have the free will to turn away from God and reject Him. And, if you reject God, are you still saved? Catholics don’t believe so. What we can say is that we have believed in God and have done our best to do His will for our lives (Matthew 7:21, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven,”) and that by His grace and mercy we hope in His salvation.
Man has this incredible capacity to fool himself, but he cannot fool God: “Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart,” (Proverbs 21:2). That’s why we say that if we believe and do the Father’s will, then we have the hope in us that God will indeed have mercy upon us and grant us eternal life with Him in Heaven. But, we do not presume to judge when judgment is for God alone.
We also do not say we have absolute assurance of salvation because Catholics, like Paul, believe salvation is a process. We believe, as Jesus says, that in order to follow Him, we must deny ourselves and we must pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:23), not just once in our lives. If we don’t pick up our cross daily, then we are not following Him. And, if we are not following Him, are we still saved? The answer is, no, we are not.
And Paul very clearly believes that salvation is a process, not a one–time event. In several places he states that we have been saved (2 Tim 1:8–9, Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5 and 8, and Titus 3:5); in other places he says that we are being saved (1 Cor 1:18 and 2 Cor 2:15), which in and of itself connotes a process of salvation; and in still other places he says we will be saved (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 5:5, 1 Tim 2:15, Rom 5:9–10, and Rom 10:9 and 13). We were saved, we are being saved, and w e will be saved…if we persevere to the end – that is the scriptural process of salvation.
Finally, for those who believe in absolute assurance, they have a bit of a problem with the whole concept of hope that we find all through the New Testament. Why are these these folks in the Scripture told to have hope rather than to trust in their absolute assurance of salvation? If they have absolute knowledge – absolute assurance – that they are saved, then they have no need for hope. The concept of hope fits perfectly with Catholic belief, but not so much with the belief in once saved always saved and this whole absolute assurance business.
To summarize: We have the assurance, based upon God’s own word, that if we follow His will for our lives, we will be saved. But, we do not have “absolute” assurance that we will be saved because we could, of our own free will, turn away from Christ at any given point in our lives.
 
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7angels

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7 angels, thank you for responding. I'm not sure if you or xBlux's belief system is based on belief in a doctrine called “once saved, always saved.” Once you are “saved,” – answered an altar call or said a sinner’s prayer and accepted Jesus into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior – then, according to this doctrine, that’s it. That’s all that needs to be done. Your train ticket to Heaven has been punched and there is nothing that can derail that train. Salvation is, in essence, a one–time event that cannot be undone. That’s why believers in this doctrine claim to have “absolute assurance” in their own salvation.
Catholics do not, however, say that they have “a bsolute” assurance of salvation because we do not believe that we have the authority nor the ability to judge ourselves. Paul himself says, in 1 Cor 4:3–5, that he does not judge himself, but it is the Lord who judges him. Paul even says that he is not aware of anything against himself, yet that he is not necessarily acquitted (or saved, in Evangelical terminology). That doesn’t sound like absolute assurance of salvation, does it?
Also, in Phil 3:10–13 and 1 Cor 9:26–27, we don’t see Paul talking in the language of absolute assurance: ”...that, if possible, I may attain the resurrection of the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own…,” and ”...lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” This is not the language of absolute assurance.
God judges us, we do not judge ourselves. At any moment in our lives, we still have the free will to turn away from God and reject Him. And, if you reject God, are you still saved? Catholics don’t believe so. What we can say is that we have believed in God and have done our best to do His will for our lives (Matthew 7:21, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven,”) and that by His grace and mercy we hope in His salvation.
Man has this incredible capacity to fool himself, but he cannot fool God: “Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart,” (Proverbs 21:2). That’s why we say that if we believe and do the Father’s will, then we have the hope in us that God will indeed have mercy upon us and grant us eternal life with Him in Heaven. But, we do not presume to judge when judgment is for God alone.
We also do not say we have absolute assurance of salvation because Catholics, like Paul, believe salvation is a process. We believe, as Jesus says, that in order to follow Him, we must deny ourselves and we must pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:23), not just once in our lives. If we don’t pick up our cross daily, then we are not following Him. And, if we are not following Him, are we still saved? The answer is, no, we are not.
And Paul very clearly believes that salvation is a process, not a one–time event. In several places he states that we have been saved (2 Tim 1:8–9, Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5 and 8, and Titus 3:5); in other places he says that we are being saved (1 Cor 1:18 and 2 Cor 2:15), which in and of itself connotes a process of salvation; and in still other places he says we will be saved (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 5:5, 1 Tim 2:15, Rom 5:9–10, and Rom 10:9 and 13). We were saved, we are being saved, and w e will be saved…if we persevere to the end – that is the scriptural process of salvation.
Finally, for those who believe in absolute assurance, they have a bit of a problem with the whole concept of hope that we find all through the New Testament. Why are these these folks in the Scripture told to have hope rather than to trust in their absolute assurance of salvation? If they have absolute knowledge – absolute assurance – that they are saved, then they have no need for hope. The concept of hope fits perfectly with Catholic belief, but not so much with the belief in once saved always saved and this whole absolute assurance business.
To summarize: We have the assurance, based upon God’s own word, that if we follow His will for our lives, we will be saved. But, we do not have “absolute” assurance that we will be saved because we could, of our own free will, turn away from Christ at any given point in our lives.

ok let me explain why we are not under osas doctrine. I have found that the main thing that keeps me in-line is the fear of God. It keeps what I say and do in check. Problem is, what fear can you have when you cannot lose the ultimate goal as to why anyone would become a Christian? If I cannot lose salvation: Why should I ask forgiveness? Why should I repent? Why should I do any works for the kingdom of God? For if you cannot lose salvation, then none of the above even applies. Why would God tell us to do something but then turn around and make it sound like none of it has to be done? It's like saying: You can drive the car all you want, but never put gas in it. Why? Because it's not needed. So why fear God enough to do what He has told us if we are not even going to be judged, or punished for not doing it. Does God speak worthless words? Is God's book a worthless book? If osas is believed, then 90% of God's word would have to be omitted to make it work. Because all punishment for sin has to be omitted.

a doctrine that makes something more appealing to the flesh is what? A temptation. Does The word of God appeal to the flesh, or the spirit? The spirit. Because heaven is the goal of every person that accepts Christ. The Osas doctrine makes salvation more appealing to the flesh. How? If there is no punishment for sin, then what wins in the end? Is it the temptation to sin, or feeling you need to repent of the sin? Christ did not die on the cross for a covenant that is more appealing to our fleshly temptation, then our Godly need to abstain, and repent of them.

But, osas also has it's own judgement rules. If someone in their group should actually deny Christ, and decide to live a sinners life. How do they answer this? Well, he or she was never truly saved if they did this.... Really? At what point do we gain enough wisdom to make the same judgements as God? To be able to say, with authority, that this person was not truly saved, is to have a God complex. There is only one being able to determine this, and it is not us. So what does that statement, so often used by osas, reveal? That it is by man's own choice to not lose salvation that we become secure in it. And because we think and believe this, what we believe makes us judge others as if we were God ourselves. Because security of salvation is our choice, so the judgement of that security in others becomes our choice as well. Osas is setting the rules for salvation for themselves, so why not set it for others as well. You were not truly saved because you strayed, rejected and denied Christ? If we were not able to sin upon being saved, then this would be true. But I see it no where written in God's word where it says that we can never reject Christ. Sounds like a God complex to me. Because if you can make that type of judgement on earth, then who will be on the throne when we get to heaven? This type of judgement of another brings God down to the level of man. And therefore God would not be worthy to set upon the throne if man has the same ability to judge as He does. To be able to judge another as if we were Gods, also brings pride. And where pride is, becoming humble is much harder to do.

We are saved by grace, and yet we can fall from it too.
acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Galatians 5:4, has to be broken up to be understood it correctly. This is where osas believers miss it's meaning. The reason Christ is used at the beginning of this verse is because Christ is the representation of the new covenant between man and God. So all that is said afterwards, is about the new covenant. So let's put it in more understandable words.
Christ (salvation) is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law (the old way), ye are falling from grace.
But how does one fall from the new covenant to the old covenant?
jn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
jn 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

This is probably one of the most famous verses used by the osas believers. But, they are unwilling to address the reason as to why the Father's hand are mentioned along with the son's hands. Why would you even need the Father's hands if your in the Son's, and cannot be removed? Might want to think about that one. But there is something they miss by not doing this. Remember when I said that "Christ" in the verse of Galatians was a representation of the new covenant? Well, the mention of the Father's hands is a representation of the old covenant here.
Galatians 5:4 shows us that Christ equals new covenant and Being justified by the law equals old covenant.
John 10:28-29 shows us that My hand equals new covenant and Father's hands equals old covenant
Do you see how both verses work together as far as covenant goes? So what does this all mean? It all lies in the last part of Galatians. When we fall from grace, we fall from Christ's hands to the Father's hands (the reason both the Father and Son are mentioned). For we cannot ever go back to being an actual sinner, but we can lose salvation. How? Because the "Father's hands" are the representation of the old covenant which is no longer in effect. So to fall from one set of hands to the other means you have lost salvation (fallen from grace).
gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
In the old covenant, one of the ways a person showed his loyalty to God, was to be circumcised. But even as we read that verse above, that does not matter any more. Only that you become a new creature in Christ.

So why fall to the Father's hands.....
When you fall from Christ's hands (new covenant). You have to have a way back because of this verse:
James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth*, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

To completely fall is to not be able to come back. For can Christ crawl back on the cross and die for something that was rejected the first time? Total rejection on our part, with the ability to be completely removed from God and the Son. Means a new covenant has to be made. So when you do fall, you fall from the hands of Christ, but not the hands of the father.
But do the hands of the Father save you?
Nope. Why? Because the Father's hands are a representation of the old covenant which is no longer in effect.
So why have it to where you go from one hand to the other?
Like I said before, to fall completely means you have no way back. This is why both the Father's hands, and the hands of the Son are included in those verses because they work together to keep you from falling completely, and not have a way back.

God bless
 

rainbows

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I seriously doubt the authenticity of the OSAS position.

Please read the following extract from Romans, it certainly
casts another light on the subject. Note: also the wider
groups Israel and the Gentiles.

Romans 11

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”

20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.
Do not be haughty, but fear.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell,
severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness.
Otherwise you also will be cut off.

23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in,
for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature,
and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree,
how much more will these, who are natural branches,
be grafted into their own olive tree?

Powerful verses from a powerful apostle.

"Otherwise you also will be cutoff."

Once saved always saved?
 

neophyte

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7angels and rainbow and everybody else that has a different understanding on salvation from my Catholic explanation of salvation as presented in my post of # 131, how different is your understanding of salvation from the Catholic teaching on salvation ? Please exlain, Thank you and God bless
 

biggandyy

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John 10:28-29, now let's add 2 Cor. 1:21-22

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

There is not even the slightest hint anywhere in Scripture that the Holy Spirit can be unsealed and the guarantee voided, by God or anyone else. We are either forever saved or we were never saved.
 

aspen

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All relationships can end. We are not always faithful, why should we believe that God would remain faithful to an unfaithful spouse? He is not a doormat.
 

biggandyy

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Because He chooses to be faithful.

He remained faithful to Israel though He specifically chastized them for being an "unfaithful spouse". He loved Israel because He made a promise to Abram. No, God is not a doormat, it is we.
 

aspen

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Because He chooses to be faithful.

He remained faithful to Israel though He specifically chastized them for being an "unfaithful spouse". He loved Israel because He made a promise to Abram. No, God is not a doormat, it is we.

Seems to me that God prepared a certificate of divorce for Israel.
 

Foreigner

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God did say of Israel, "I will never leave you or forsake you."
He has had to chastise, punish, correct, discipline, turn His face away, etc. several times, that much is true.
Proverbs 3:12 states "for the LORD reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights."
Israel is still His Beloved.
 

veteran

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Seems to me that God prepared a certificate of divorce for Israel.

He did (Jer.3); but that was involving only the "house of Israel" (ten tribes), not "Judah". It's why the ten tribes of Israel became lost to the world, while the "house of Judah" (Jews) did not.

And it's also why The Father sent His Son Jesus Christ as Redeemer, especially for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.