Can You Lose Your Salvation ?

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Stan

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God makes NO distinction or levels of sin. Jesus said ALL sin can be forgiven EXCEPT the sin of BLASPHEMY against the Holy Spirit. Falling away is what WE do, God never pushes us away. Just as we came to Christ of our own free will, we can fall away of that same free will.
 

Axehead

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God makes NO distinction or levels of sin. Jesus said ALL sin can be forgiven EXCEPT the sin of BLASPHEMY against the Holy Spirit. Falling away is what WE do, God never pushes us away. Just as we came to Christ of our own free will, we can fall away of that same free will.

Big Amen there, Stan.
 

neophyte

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God makes NO distinction or levels of sin. Jesus said ALL sin can be forgiven EXCEPT the sin of BLASPHEMY against the Holy Spirit. Falling away is what WE do, God never pushes us away. Just as we came to Christ of our own free will, we can fall away of that same free will.

Stan, I can see that you never payed attention when you were Catholic, you never learned anything, no wonder you left Christ's Church.Pay attention -- two types of sin.

In this passage [ 1 John 16: 17 ] St. John mentions that there are two categories of sin. Venial sins weaken the life of grace in the soul and weaken the soul's ability to avoid sin. Mortal sins, by their very nature , literally kill the soul by purposely eradicating sanctifying grace.
 

Foreigner

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In this passage [ 1 John 16: 17 ] St. John mentions that there are two categories of sin. Venial sins weaken the life of grace in the soul and weaken the soul's ability to avoid sin. Mortal sins, by their very nature , literally kill the soul by purposely eradicating sanctifying grace.


-- Neophyte, every time a Catholic rolls this out, they are stumped when asked what specific venial sin they can continue to commit that will never lead them to damnation.
 

neophyte

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-- Neophyte, every time a Catholic rolls this out, they are stumped when asked what specific venial sin they can continue to commit that will never lead them to damnation.

Not one. Because, inevitably there is not one single venial sin that could not lead you to a grievious/ mortal sin if one commits that particular venial sin consistantly.
 
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Stan

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Stan, I can see that you never payed attention when you were Catholic, you never learned anything, no wonder you left Christ's Church.Pay attention -- two types of sin.

In this passage [ 1 John 16: 17 ] St. John mentions that there are two categories of sin. Venial sins weaken the life of grace in the soul and weaken the soul's ability to avoid sin. Mortal sins, by their very nature , literally kill the soul by purposely eradicating sanctifying grace.

First of all you're right, I didn't pay attention in the RC church. Even as a kid, it didn't make sense to me.

Secondly the verse is 1John 5:16; If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

John here is referring directly to what Jesus said in Matthew 12:31; “For this reason I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Now pay attention so I don't have to repeat myself. John says "A sin that leads to death" One sin, Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, exactly what Jesus said in Matthew. No use praying for someone who has committed an unpardonable sin, is there?
John is reiterating what Jesus taught in Matthew 12:31. This is how PROPER exegesis is done Neo. NOT by spouting denominational rhetoric.
 

neophyte

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Stan,
I am very much aware of every verse you have cited. I simply disagree with your interpretation of those verses. Do you claim to be infallible in your interpretation of Scripture? I ask, because I am wondering if you have some authority by which to declare your interpretation of Scripture to be more valid than mine? If you b elieve you do, please let me know what that authority is.

Once you are “saved,” – answered an altar call or said a sinner’s prayer and accepted Jesus into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior – then, according to this doctrine, that’s it. That’s all that needs to be done. Your train ticket to Heaven has been punched and there is nothing that can derail that train. Salvation is, in essence, a one–time event that cannot be undone. That’s why believers in this doctrine claim to have “absolute assurance” in their own salvation.

Catholics do not, however, say that they have “a bsolute” assurance of salvation because we do not believe that we have the authority nor the ability to judge ourselves. Paul himself says, in 1 Cor 4:3–5, that he does not judge himself, but it is the Lord who judges him. Paul even says that he is not aware of anything against himself, yet that he is not necessarily acquitted (or saved, in Evangelical terminology). That doesn’t sound like absolute assurance of salvation, does it?
Also, in Phil 3:10–13 and 1 Cor 9:26–27, we don’t see Paul talking in the language of absolute assurance: ”...that, if possible, I may attain the resurrection of the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own…,” and ”...lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” This is not the language of absolute assurance.

God judges us, we do not judge ourselves. At any moment in our lives, we still have the free will to turn away from God and reject Him. And, if you reject God, are you still saved? Catholics don’t believe so. What we can say is that we have believed in God and have done our best to do His will for our lives (Matthew 7:21, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven,”) and that by His grace and mercy we hope in His salvation.
Man has this incredible capacity to fool himself, but he cannot fool God: “Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart,” (Proverbs 21:2). That’s why we say that if we believe and do the Father’s will, then we have the hope in us that God will indeed have mercy upon us and grant us eternal life with Him in Heaven. But, we do not presume to judge when judgment is for God alone.
We also do not say we have absolute assurance of salvation because Catholics, like Paul, believe salvation is a process. We believe, as Jesus says, that in order to follow Him, we must deny ourselves and we must pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:23), not just once in our lives. If we don’t pick up our cross daily, then we are not following Him. And, if we are not following Him, are we still saved? The answer is, no, we are not.
And Paul very clearly believes that salvation is a process, not a one–time event. In several places he states that we have been saved (2 Tim 1:8–9, Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5 and 8, and Titus 3:5); in other places he says that we are being saved (1 Cor 1:18 and 2 Cor 2:15), which in and of itself connotes a process of salvation; and in still other places he says we will be saved (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 5:5, 1 Tim 2:15, Rom 5:9–10, and Rom 10:9 and 13). We were saved, we are being saved, and w e will be saved…if we persevere to the end – that is the scriptural process of salvation.
Finally, for those who believe in absolute assurance, they have a bit of a problem with the whole concept of hope that we find all through the New Testament. Why are these these folks in the Scripture told to have hope rather than to trust in their absolute assurance of salvation? If they have absolute knowledge – absolute assurance – that they are saved, then they have no need for hope. The concept of hope fits perfectly with Catholic belief, but not so much with the belief in once saved always saved and this whole absolute assurance business.
To summarize: We have the assurance, based upon God’s own word, that if we follow His will for our lives, we will be saved. But, we do not have “absolute” assurance that we will be saved because we could, of our own free will, turn away from Christ at any given po int in our lives.Stan, I will answer your response, if any, tomorrow. Good Nignt and God Bless





,


 

Stan

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Stan,
I am very much aware of every verse you have cited. I simply disagree with your interpretation of those verses. Do you claim to be infallible in your interpretation of Scripture? I ask, because I am wondering if you have some authority by which to declare your interpretation of Scripture to be more valid than mine? If you b elieve you do, please let me know what that authority is.

Once you are “saved,” – answered an altar call or said a sinner’s prayer and accepted Jesus into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior – then, according to this doctrine, that’s it. That’s all that needs to be done. Your train ticket to Heaven has been punched and there is nothing that can derail that train. Salvation is, in essence, a one–time event that cannot be undone. That’s why believers in this doctrine claim to have “absolute assurance” in their own salvation.

Catholics do not, however, say that they have “a bsolute” assurance of salvation because we do not believe that we have the authority nor the ability to judge ourselves. Paul himself says, in 1 Cor 4:3–5, that he does not judge himself, but it is the Lord who judges him. Paul even says that he is not aware of anything against himself, yet that he is not necessarily acquitted (or saved, in Evangelical terminology). That doesn’t sound like absolute assurance of salvation, does it?
Also, in Phil 3:10–13 and 1 Cor 9:26–27, we don’t see Paul talking in the language of absolute assurance: ”...that, if possible, I may attain the resurrection of the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own…,” and ”...lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” This is not the language of absolute assurance.

God judges us, we do not judge ourselves. At any moment in our lives, we still have the free will to turn away from God and reject Him. And, if you reject God, are you still saved? Catholics don’t believe so. What we can say is that we have believed in God and have done our best to do His will for our lives (Matthew 7:21, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven,”) and that by His grace and mercy we hope in His salvation.
Man has this incredible capacity to fool himself, but he cannot fool God: “Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart,” (Proverbs 21:2). That’s why we say that if we believe and do the Father’s will, then we have the hope in us that God will indeed have mercy upon us and grant us eternal life with Him in Heaven. But, we do not presume to judge when judgment is for God alone.
We also do not say we have absolute assurance of salvation because Catholics, like Paul, believe salvation is a process. We believe, as Jesus says, that in order to follow Him, we must deny ourselves and we must pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:23), not just once in our lives. If we don’t pick up our cross daily, then we are not following Him. And, if we are not following Him, are we still saved? The answer is, no, we are not.
And Paul very clearly believes that salvation is a process, not a one–time event. In several places he states that we have been saved (2 Tim 1:8–9, Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5 and 8, and Titus 3:5); in other places he says that we are being saved (1 Cor 1:18 and 2 Cor 2:15), which in and of itself connotes a process of salvation; and in still other places he says we will be saved (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 5:5, 1 Tim 2:15, Rom 5:9–10, and Rom 10:9 and 13). We were saved, we are being saved, and w e will be saved…if we persevere to the end – that is the scriptural process of salvation.
Finally, for those who believe in absolute assurance, they have a bit of a problem with the whole concept of hope that we find all through the New Testament. Why are these these folks in the Scripture told to have hope rather than to trust in their absolute assurance of salvation? If they have absolute knowledge – absolute assurance – that they are saved, then they have no need for hope. The concept of hope fits perfectly with Catholic belief, but not so much with the belief in once saved always saved and this whole absolute assurance business.
To summarize: We have the assurance, based upon God’s own word, that if we follow His will for our lives, we will be saved. But, we do not have “absolute” assurance that we will be saved because we could, of our own free will, turn away from Christ at any given po int in our lives.Stan, I will answer your response, if any, tomorrow. Good Nignt and God Bless


This post is out of context for me so I really can't say much, however I claim no infallibility what-so-ever. That concept is ONLY found in the RCC.
Do I believe God's Word is made real and clear to me by the Holy Spirit? Yes.
Do I believe salvation is a one time process and a life time walk? Yes.
Do I have absolute assurance from God that I am saved? Absolutely.
Do I believe being 'born again' is a one time event? Yes.
Do I believe we can fall away from God and salvation? Yes.
Do I believe we have a free will to do ANYTHING we want? Yes.

I would appreciate it if you would use the tools CB provides to address any given post I make. I don't have the best memory in the world, and I have no inclination at all to go looking for the context of your responses.
Gob Bless you as well.
 

neophyte

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Stan, exactly, you are not infallible in your interpretation of Holy Scripture, because nowhere in the Bible does it say that each individual who reads the Bible gets to decide for themselves what is or is not true doctrine based on their ability to interpret the Bible? Stan, just as you admit , you are not infallible in your interpretation when reading the Bible.So do not base what you call the correct 'doctrine' on the way you interpret your Bible. What about Jesus’ doctrine? ; What about the Apostles’ doctrine? Since when is Christianity all about “your doctrine" when you readily admit in your last post that when you interpret the Bible your interpretation is not infallible
Nowhere Stan does the Bible say that you are to use the Bible to determine “your doctrine?” Did the early Christians use the Bible to determine their doctrine? No! They didn’t have a Bible, at least not a Bible that had a New Testament in it, that they could turn to in order to determine doctrine. They had their doctrines in place before a single word of the New Testament was written. The New Testament, then, was simply putting down in writing the teaching of the Apostles, which they had received from Jesus Christ Himself, and which the early Church already believed and taught. They did not determine their doctrines from the written Word, as their doctrines had already been taught to them by the Church. So, when Christians today turn to the Bible to determine their doctrines, they are doing things exactly backwards from the way the early Christians did them. As Catholic Ch ristians, we do not turn, individually, or with each successive generation, to the Bible to determine our doctrine. Our doctrine is indeed in Scripture – directly or indirectly – and is confirmed by Scripture, but our doctrine existed before the written New Testament did. The written New Testament is based upon our doctrine, upon the sure Word of God that had been passed on orally from the Apostles to the early Church, not the other way around.
 

Stan

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Stan, exactly, you are not infallible in your interpretation of Holy Scripture, because nowhere in the Bible does it say that each individual who reads the Bible gets to decide for themselves what is or is not true doctrine based on their ability to interpret the Bible? Stan, just as you admit , you are not infallible in your interpretation when reading the Bible.So do not base what you call the correct 'doctrine' on the way you interpret your Bible. What about Jesus’ doctrine? ; What about the Apostles’ doctrine? Since when is Christianity all about “your doctrine" when you readily admit in your last post that when you interpret the Bible your interpretation is not infallible
Nowhere Stan does the Bible say that you are to use the Bible to determine “your doctrine?” Did the early Christians use the Bible to determine their doctrine? No! They didn’t have a Bible, at least not a Bible that had a New Testament in it, that they could turn to in order to determine doctrine. They had their doctrines in place before a single word of the New Testament was written. The New Testament, then, was simply putting down in writing the teaching of the Apostles, which they had received from Jesus Christ Himself, and which the early Church already believed and taught. They did not determine their doctrines from the written Word, as their doctrines had already been taught to them by the Church. So, when Christians today turn to the Bible to determine their doctrines, they are doing things exactly backwards from the way the early Christians did them. As Catholic Ch ristians, we do not turn, individually, or with each successive generation, to the Bible to determine our doctrine. Our doctrine is indeed in Scripture – directly or indirectly – and is confirmed by Scripture, but our doctrine existed before the written New Testament did. The written New Testament is based upon our doctrine, upon the sure Word of God that had been passed on orally from the Apostles to the early Church, not the other way around.

Spoken like a true indoctrinated RC. I don't think it really matters what I tell you or show you scripture says, you will NOT believe. I will leave you to your RC doctrine. Read my signature. These verses apply directly to ALL Christians. Maybe not to RCs?
 

dragonfly

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Hi neophyte,

If you are going to be honest about what the Bible does say, and if you are going to let it teach you personally, then you have to contend with these verses, as well as that 'doctrine' is mentioned in the KJV New Testament forty eight times.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.



2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them]; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.



1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words - the words of our Lord Jesus Christ - and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
 

Episkopos

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We can still lose salvation --- for those who believe in absolute assurance, they have a bit of a problem with the whole concept of hope that we find all through the New Testament. Why are these these folks in the Scripture told to have hope rather than to trust in their absolute assurance of salvation? If they have absolute knowledge – absolute assurance – that they are saved, then they have no need for hope. The concept of hope fits perfectly with Catholic belief, but not so much with the belief in once saved always saved and this whole absolute assurance business.
To summarize: We have the assurance, based upon God’s own word, that if we follow His will for our lives, we will be saved. But, we do not have “absolute” assurance that we will be saved because we could, of our own free will, turn away from Christ at any given point in our lives.

Agreed!
 

KingJ

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Strong arguments can be made for both sides. I prefer to err on the side of 'we can lose our salvation'. I feel it is wise to only rest when we are actually in heaven next to Jesus.

I feel that those who believe and are fully convinced of OSAS are very close to God. When we are close to our marriage partner we feel like divorce / adultery are impossible. So it is a normally a good sign for me if someone believes in OSAS.

I do not however believe it is easy to lose our salvation!! Like the prodigal son, I believe God still tries His absolute best to draw us back to Him. Think about a marriage as well. It takes continuing in adultery before we should just divorce. As a once-off can be a mistake not necessarily a change of hearts desire for someone else. As Jesus says, we do better to take them back, should they sincerely repent of course. So I conclude that it takes continuing in an extremity of sin, before we lose our salvation. I will NOT leave my wife for thinking about another man or a ''once-off' mistake. It will hurt, but it is something we CAN work on.

Stan touched on a very good point when he mentioned the unpardonable sin of cursing the Holy Spirit. Logic tells me that if anyone committed it, that their time on earth would be up. Hence, all those living are alive because God STILL has hope for them. Cursing the Holy Spirit has to be seen as consistently grieving Him. If we were in the spirit like angels, all we would have to do is pull the middle finger at the Holy Spirit and we would immediately be kicked out of God's presence, just like the fallen angels. But because we are in the flesh, our rebellious / evil intent is not always at such an extremity. It would take a number of times of grieving the Holy Spirit before we are guilty of truly cursing Him.
 

Raeneske

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Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Yes, you can lose your salvation. Notice it says that those people were once partakers of the Holy Ghost. As Hebrews 10:26 says, once you begin to willfully sin like that, there remains no more sacrifice for your sins. Only a fearful looking for judgement remains. Why? Because they know what they've eternally given up.
 

justaname

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The best answer for this question IMHO is no. First off let me say that anything that is a work of God can not be thwarted, Job 42:2 and we are His workmanship. Ephesians 2:10 Jesus is the perfecter and author of our faith. Hebrews 12:2

Then why all the warning passages you might ask? Salvation is not a thing that is experienced in it's fullness until the time of glorification. We have a salvation that is three fold, past (at time of belief) Romans 10:9, present (currently working out our salvation with fear and trembling) Philippians 2:12 , and future (where we see Him as He is and we are in His likeness) 1John 3:2.

But Hebrews 6:4-6, they have tasted and lost...

Thanks be to God and the professor I took the class from for his in depth study in this particular book. He based his doctorate on the book of Hebrews, which means he studied this book immensely for several years. He has an enlightening outlook on this book which I have adopted.

The author of Hebrews presents to his audience a future salvation. Throughout the entire book the wilderness generation is presented as a motif. Hebrews 3:12-19 Note here that at verse 12 the condition of the heart is what is being compared to those who did not enter rest. Thereby it is unbelief that is cause for falling away from God. Hebrews 4:2

Now lets look at the audience, which is primarily made up of ethnic Jews now Christians and some Gentiles. They were going through tribulation Hebrews 10:32-34 and their threat as it were was to fall back into the old tradition. Hebrews 2:1-4 At the time of the writing Judaism was an accepted religious practice of the Roman government whereas Christianity was not, so it could be very enticing during these times of tribulation to ease back into the old ways.

In Hebrews 6:4-6 the author, most likely not Paul but that is another thread, was contrasting the wilderness generation with his audience. Those who were once enlightened (pillar of fire) tasted of the heavenly gift (the manna they collected in the mornings) been made partakers of the Holy Spirit (dwelt on the land at the same time as God's manifestation)

In the very next verse the author then assures his audience "9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way."

The "better things" accompany salvation!

God will not be mocked and is not a liar. Galatians 6:7 Numbers 23:19
His promises are true Romans 10:9 and the salvation he performs is irrevocable. Thanks be to God!


Now we have the situation of the apostate. The only answer I have to this is true belief endures to the end even if doubt takes seat. 1 John 2:19
 

Raeneske

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justaname said:
The best answer for this question IMHO is no. First off let me say that anything that is a work of God can not be thwarted, Job 42:2 and we are His workmanship. Ephesians 2:10 Jesus is the perfecter and author of our faith. Hebrews 12:2

Then why all the warning passages you might ask? Salvation is not a thing that is experienced in it's fullness until the time of glorification. We have a salvation that is three fold, past (at time of belief) Romans 10:9, present (currently working out our salvation with fear and trembling) Philippians 2:12 , and future (where we see Him as He is and we are in His likeness) 1John 3:2.

But Hebrews 6:4-6, they have tasted and lost...

Thanks be to God and the professor I took the class from for his in depth study in this particular book. He based his doctorate on the book of Hebrews, which means he studied this book immensely for several years. He has an enlightening outlook on this book which I have adopted.

The author of Hebrews presents to his audience a future salvation. Throughout the entire book the wilderness generation is presented as a motif. Hebrews 3:12-19 Note here that at verse 12 the condition of the heart is what is being compared to those who did not enter rest. Thereby it is unbelief that is cause for falling away from God. Hebrews 4:2

Now lets look at the audience, which is primarily made up of ethnic Jews now Christians and some Gentiles. They were going through tribulation Hebrews 10:32-34 and their threat as it were was to fall back into the old tradition. Hebrews 2:1-4 At the time of the writing Judaism was an accepted religious practice of the Roman government whereas Christianity was not, so it could be very enticing during these times of tribulation to ease back into the old ways.

In Hebrews 6:4-6 the author, most likely not Paul but that is another thread, was contrasting the wilderness generation with his audience. Those who were once enlightened (pillar of fire) tasted of the heavenly gift (the manna they collected in the mornings) been made partakers of the Holy Spirit (dwelt on the land at the same time as God's manifestation)

In the very next verse the author then assures his audience "9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way."

The "better things" accompany salvation!

God will not be mocked and is not a liar. Galatians 6:7 Numbers 23:19
His promises are true Romans 10:9 and the salvation he performs is irrevocable. Thanks be to God!


Now we have the situation of the apostate. The only answer I have to this is true belief endures to the end even if doubt takes seat. 1 John 2:19
Pardon if I am misunderstanding what you're saying. It sounds like you're saying they "can't" lose their salvation.

Even if salvation appears "threefold" to you, you can still currently lose your salvation. Hebrews 6:4-6 is plain. It doesn't need a professor, theologian, or Jesuit to state that you can lose your salvation. God shows, you have been saved, and therefore obtained your salvation, which you are now supposed to continually work out with fear and trembling. But God shows you can turn right back around, after being saved, and just accept more wicked demons than you previously had. (Matthew 12:45, Luke 11:26).

God is the author and finisher of our faith, and He has promised to save us. But no promise is unconditional. Retaining your salvation can only happen through obedience to God. He gave you the gift, and you accept it. If you accept it for the time being, and then turn back to your own vomit, have you not rejected the gift yourself? So, a Christian turned murderer, clearly loses his salvation because you know, "no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him". So yes, you can lose your salvation. Breaking it into 3 phases would not change that fact.
 

rockytopva

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We Pentecostals have often seen people get all excited and Spirit filled... And then... What happened? So there is a wish on our part that there is indeed eternal security after salvation... However Jesus Christ points out...

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. - Matthew 10:22
 

justaname

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Raeneske said:
Pardon if I am misunderstanding what you're saying. It sounds like you're saying they "can't" lose their salvation.
Yes, I am saying you can't lose salvation. My reasoning is because it is God who gives salvation, not us who earn it. We simply have faith that the promises God makes are true because He does not lie. If it is you are to be saved by God, you will be saved just as He promises.
Raeneske said:
Even if salvation appears "threefold" to you, you can still currently lose your salvation. Hebrews 6:4-6 is plain. It doesn't need a professor, theologian, or Jesuit to state that you can lose your salvation. God shows, you have been saved, and therefore obtained your salvation, which you are now supposed to continually work out with fear and trembling. But God shows you can turn right back around, after being saved, and just accept more wicked demons than you previously had. (Matthew 12:45, Luke 11:26).
This is out of context.

And yes Hebrews is plain especially when you read it in it's entirety. It is an extremely encouraging book that explains why our new covenant is better than the old.
Raeneske said:
God is the author and finisher of our faith, and He has promised to save us. But no promise is unconditional.
This promise is unconditional. Jeremiah 31:31



31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Raeneske said:
Retaining your salvation can only happen through obedience to God. He gave you the gift, and you accept it. If you accept it for the time being, and then turn back to your own vomit, have you not rejected the gift yourself?
No you have not you have returned to vomit, that is not a rejection of the gift. More aptly put, scripture only speaks of One who is without sin.

Raeneske said:
So, a Christian turned murderer, clearly loses his salvation because you know, "no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him". So yes, you can lose your salvation. Breaking it into 3 phases would not change that fact.
If someone who claimed to be a Christian "turned murderer", then the validity of their salvation would be in question. I think the more likely case though would be a murderer turning Christian.

I pray the Holy Spirt opens your eyes to this realization.

God is the refuge His saints take comfort in. His promises are true. Selah

God is sovereign. Salvation is His plan and He is the Savior. Those who are saved are saved by grace through faith. The acting agent in the salvation process is God, not free will, because it is God's grace. He is the guarantee of our salvation, and none can take us from His hand. God's plan was never for us to save ourselves as some would have us think, otherwise the Law would have been sufficient. To God be the glory forever.

There can only be one Sovereign and it is either God or free will. Satan and his horde sided with free will, I choose God.

Once I was a slave to sin, in bondage to death.

God began His work in me and now I am a slave to righteousness. God will complete the work He started. Philippians 1:6
 

Raeneske

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justaname said:
Yes, I am saying you can't lose salvation. My reasoning is because it is God who gives salvation, not us who earn it. We simply have faith that the promises God makes are true because He does not lie. If it is you are to be saved by God, you will be saved just as He promises.
This is out of context.

And yes Hebrews is plain especially when you read it in it's entirety. It is an extremely encouraging book that explains why our new covenant is better than the old.
This promise is unconditional. Jeremiah 31:31



31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

No you have not you have returned to vomit, that is not a rejection of the gift. More aptly put, scripture only speaks of One who is without sin.

If someone who claimed to be a Christian "turned murderer", then the validity of their salvation would be in question. I think the more likely case though would be a murderer turning Christian.

I pray the Holy Spirt opens your eyes to this realization.

God is the refuge His saints take comfort in. His promises are true. Selah

God is sovereign. Salvation is His plan and He is the Savior. Those who are saved are saved by grace through faith. The acting agent in the salvation process is God, not free will, because it is God's grace. He is the guarantee of our salvation, and none can take us from His hand. God's plan was never for us to save ourselves as some would have us think, otherwise the Law would have been sufficient. To God be the glory forever.

There can only be one Sovereign and it is either God or free will. Satan and his horde sided with free will, I choose God.

Once I was a slave to sin, in bondage to death.

God began His work in me and now I am a slave to righteousness. God will complete the work He started. Philippians 1:6
Correct, God gives you something as a promise. But the problem here is what you and I both mean by Salvation. It also may lie where it seems you are saying God's promises aren't conditional. I must remind you:

Jeremiah 18:7-10 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

This isn't just for prophecy. Any promise of God's is built upon conditions. Simply because He says, "I will bless you" does not mean that you can turn around and start acting like a fool, and still receive His blessings. It doesn't work that way. But I think you understand that.

None can pluck us from God's hand, but you surely can wander away for yourself. Also, that is not out of context. You can cast the demon out of a man, and he can become a Christian, and then turn his back on God, and then accept even more unclean spirits. And, that is referring to anyone. Hebrews 6:4-6 is not the only place you can find this truth:

Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Again, if you are made a partaker of the Holy Ghost, and become an heir to salvation, this does not mean you are all of a sudden unable to lose your salvation. Hebrews 6 shows they were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, but then turned away. They have lost their salvation. And please don't say Hebrews 6 means something else it completely doesn't. As it starts off, it is talking about Christians striving to do well, and that we should. It then shows it is impossible for those who have tasted of the heavenly gift (the Son of God and Him saving us) and shows that they in fact also had the Holy Ghost, AND they receive the good powers of the world to come, etc. These are clearly Christians, and it shows that they openly crucify the Lord Jesus Christ and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 10 calls it trampling upon the Son of God.