Can You Lose Your Salvation ?

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justaname

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Ephesians 2:4

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.



This is an extremely telling passage when it comes to salvation. Notice here it is speaking of what God did and not what we did, all the works are preprepared. Salvation is a gift from God, and God knows how to give good gifts. There is no condition set upon His election because it is His purpose that is being displayed. (let me clarify belief is assumed, although belief will happen in those God purposes to save)

If it is you believe you can lose your salvation, then you must work in order to keep it and ultimately you are dependent upon yourself for salvation not God.

I believe it is God that is the One, and only one who saves and I am dependent on Him for salvation not myself.

The most major warnings of the bible is lack of faith, and insecurity in God's plan of salvation does nothing to strengthen that faith. I say put your confidence in God and His word and believe.

Upon repentance and belief salvation is guaranteed by God Himself, who can stand against Him? Are you telling me you are strong enough to stand against God's pledge? Are you saying if God's purposes to save you, you can stand against God's purpose? Jonah ran from God's calling and look what happened to him, eventually God received what He purposed.

Ephesians 1:13
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


I love this verse:
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


1. It is God that is doing the work in us.
2. We are created in Christ Jesus (a new creation)
3. We are created for good works.
4. God prepared these good works beforehand. (There is nothing for us to seek out)
5. So that we would walk in them. (The emphasis here is on would)

For those who are being saved their security is in God's plan of salvation not their own self determination. Those who are being saved do repent from sin. Those who are being saved will continue until the end.
 

Raeneske

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justaname said:
Ephesians 2:4

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.



This is an extremely telling passage when it comes to salvation. Notice here it is speaking of what God did and not what we did, all the works are preprepared. Salvation is a gift from God, and God knows how to give good gifts. There is no condition set upon His election because it is His purpose that is being displayed. (let me clarify belief is assumed, although belief will happen in those God purposes to save)

If it is you believe you can lose your salvation, then you must work in order to keep it and ultimately you are dependent upon yourself for salvation not God.

I believe it is God that is the One, and only one who saves and I am dependent on Him for salvation not myself.

The most major warnings of the bible is lack of faith, and insecurity in God's plan of salvation does nothing to strengthen that faith. I say put your confidence in God and His word and believe.

Upon repentance and belief salvation is guaranteed by God Himself, who can stand against Him? Are you telling me you are strong enough to stand against God's pledge? Are you saying if God's purposes to save you, you can stand against God's purpose? Jonah ran from God's calling and look what happened to him, eventually God received what He purposed.

Ephesians 1:13
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


I love this verse:
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


1. It is God that is doing the work in us.
2. We are created in Christ Jesus (a new creation)
3. We are created for good works.
4. God prepared these good works beforehand. (There is nothing for us to seek out)
5. So that we would walk in them. (The emphasis here is on would)

For those who are being saved their security is in God's plan of salvation not their own self determination. Those who are being saved do repent from sin. Those who are being saved will continue until the end.
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I think this is pretty clear, as he tells you to work out your salvation. It shows that salvation is dependent upon what you do. God has given you a free gift. You can take the gift, and then turn right back around and toss it away from you. It's like anything else of God's. God is the giver, but you must be willing to accept it. If you are willing one day, and accept the free gift and then become a partaker of the Holy Ghost, and then years down the road you decide to toss it away, you are not saved anymore. And yes, this does happen to people. God is not unreasonable, but neither is He going to give you something, bless you immensely, and then allow you to turn your back on Him, and still obtain your salvation. The free gift is in fact dependent on you to receive it, and then work out your salvation. You are a factor in this. You must be willing. That is what you must have. If you will has left you, then God simply cannot bless you any farther. You must be willing to make the effort.

It does not show a lack of faith to work out your salvation. No one is asking you to try to be saved by your works. But they are asking you to show your faith by your works, as it is said. And "by their fruits you shall know them", it is by their fruits you'll know who is saved. You are the workmanship of God, but you still are required to do something. Not to save yourself, but because you are saved. If you have become saved, but turn your back, you have lost your salvation.
 

justaname

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Philippians 2:12

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

This is an excerpt from the Bible Knowledge Commentary


It is commonly understood that this exhortation relates to the personal salvation of the saints at Philippi. They were told to “work out,” to put into practice in their daily living, what God had worked in them by His Spirit. They were not told to work for their salvation but to work out the salvation God had already given them. In view of the apparent problems of disunity and pride among those believers this interpretation seems correct. Some were not doing their work selflessly and with the interests of others ahead of their own (cf. 2:3-4).
Some writers understand Paul’s challenge to refer to the corporate life of the whole assembly in Philippi. Those who hold this view find support in the immediate context where Paul argued against their looking exclusively to their own needs (cf. v. 4). In this view “salvation” refers to the whole assembly’s deliverance from disunity, pride, and selfishness.
Perhaps it is best to see both the outworking of personal salvation and the corporate salvation or deliverance of the whole assembly from whatever held them back from experiencing God’s best.
This outworking was to be done “with fear and trembling,” with a complete trust in God and not in themselves.

The only way this could be realized was through God who would enable them to do it (v. 13). Paul told the Philippian saints that God worked in them so that they could do His good pleasure and accomplish His good purpose. Both divine enablement and human responsibility are involved in getting God’s work done. Believers are partners with God, laboring together with Him. The verb works (v. 13) means “energizes” or “provides enablement.” God makes His own both willing and desirous to do His work.

The confusion I believe comes from our linear perspective of time. No one, with the exception of God, can look through time and see who enters eternal salvation.

You say " If you have become saved, but turn your back, you have lost your salvation."

I say you can not become saved and then unsaved, you are either one or the other. From my perspective salvation is not a thing to be gained and then lost because for those who gain it keep it. Those who claim to have it then turn their back on it never had it to begin with.


You say "If you are willing one day, and accept the free gift and then become a partaker of the Holy Ghost, and then years down the road you decide to toss it away, you are not saved anymore."

I say those who "toss it away" were never saved to begin with.

Salvation is not an on again off again relationship. Salvation is something God gives to a believer as He promises.


Romans 11:29
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Jeremiah 31:31-34



31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

This is important and I think I should cover this also. The point is this covenant is unconditional. This covenant is not like the old covenant, God Himself tells us that in verse 32. But what is different?
In the old covenant it was if you do _________ I will bless you, but if you do _________ I will curse you. This old covenant is a suzerainty treaty.

In this new covenant God is the initiator and enabler. God forgets their sins and forgives their iniquity. In this covenant everything that is done is done by God, without cooperation.

To halt any objections I should qualify after the law is put in the people they can not help but cooperate.

If you believe this covenant has conditions it is because of your own bias you have brought to the text. Exegetically there is no condition put on this covenant.


Now to tie this all together as to why I believe you can not lose your salvation.


2 Corinthians 3:2-6

2 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

If it is our adequacy is from God, who will make us inadequate? It seems today many are not confident through Christ, as if what Christ did is not enough.

People can lose faith, reject grace, and can join any Christian denomination and then quit. That does not mean they were once saved and then some how lost it.

This new covenant is a better and lasting covenant. One in which God is the enabler. It is God who initiated this covenant by giving His only begotten Son. Are we so bold as to say it wasn't enough? Men may be confused as to who is saved and who is not, but God knows exactly who is saved and He will bring them to completion Himself!

Personally I feel a posture of submission promotes a better relationship as opposed to a posture of self determination. Remember it is God's righteousness that we don, not that we seek to establish our own.
 

IanLC

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Genuine belief produces action and fruit. Salvation is not a mere intellectual contemplation or emotional experience it is evident and based in a changed life. How can you accept a life changing gospel and there is no change in your life? When we accept Jesus as Savior we understand that He has saved us but He also wants and is our Lord which means we must obey Him. Holiness in lifestyle which is a change from sinfulness is the pure evidence of salvation.
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
Matthew 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God."
Romans 6:22 "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life."
Matthew 7:21 ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Luke 6:46 ""Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?"
 

Raeneske

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justaname said:
Philippians 2:12

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

This is an excerpt from the Bible Knowledge Commentary


It is commonly understood that this exhortation relates to the personal salvation of the saints at Philippi. They were told to “work out,” to put into practice in their daily living, what God had worked in them by His Spirit. They were not told to work for their salvation but to work out the salvation God had already given them. In view of the apparent problems of disunity and pride among those believers this interpretation seems correct. Some were not doing their work selflessly and with the interests of others ahead of their own (cf. 2:3-4).
Some writers understand Paul’s challenge to refer to the corporate life of the whole assembly in Philippi. Those who hold this view find support in the immediate context where Paul argued against their looking exclusively to their own needs (cf. v. 4). In this view “salvation” refers to the whole assembly’s deliverance from disunity, pride, and selfishness.
Perhaps it is best to see both the outworking of personal salvation and the corporate salvation or deliverance of the whole assembly from whatever held them back from experiencing God’s best.
This outworking was to be done “with fear and trembling,” with a complete trust in God and not in themselves.

The only way this could be realized was through God who would enable them to do it (v. 13). Paul told the Philippian saints that God worked in them so that they could do His good pleasure and accomplish His good purpose. Both divine enablement and human responsibility are involved in getting God’s work done. Believers are partners with God, laboring together with Him. The verb works (v. 13) means “energizes” or “provides enablement.” God makes His own both willing and desirous to do His work.

The confusion I believe comes from our linear perspective of time. No one, with the exception of God, can look through time and see who enters eternal salvation.

You say " If you have become saved, but turn your back, you have lost your salvation."

I say you can not become saved and then unsaved, you are either one or the other. From my perspective salvation is not a thing to be gained and then lost because for those who gain it keep it. Those who claim to have it then turn their back on it never had it to begin with.


You say "If you are willing one day, and accept the free gift and then become a partaker of the Holy Ghost, and then years down the road you decide to toss it away, you are not saved anymore."

I say those who "toss it away" were never saved to begin with.

Salvation is not an on again off again relationship. Salvation is something God gives to a believer as He promises.


Romans 11:29
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Jeremiah 31:31-34



31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

This is important and I think I should cover this also. The point is this covenant is unconditional. This covenant is not like the old covenant, God Himself tells us that in verse 32. But what is different?
In the old covenant it was if you do _________ I will bless you, but if you do _________ I will curse you. This old covenant is a suzerainty treaty.

In this new covenant God is the initiator and enabler. God forgets their sins and forgives their iniquity. In this covenant everything that is done is done by God, without cooperation.

To halt any objections I should qualify after the law is put in the people they can not help but cooperate.

If you believe this covenant has conditions it is because of your own bias you have brought to the text. Exegetically there is no condition put on this covenant.


Now to tie this all together as to why I believe you can not lose your salvation.


2 Corinthians 3:2-6

2 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

If it is our adequacy is from God, who will make us inadequate? It seems today many are not confident through Christ, as if what Christ did is not enough.

People can lose faith, reject grace, and can join any Christian denomination and then quit. That does not mean they were once saved and then some how lost it.

This new covenant is a better and lasting covenant. One in which God is the enabler. It is God who initiated this covenant by giving His only begotten Son. Are we so bold as to say it wasn't enough? Men may be confused as to who is saved and who is not, but God knows exactly who is saved and He will bring them to completion Himself!

Personally I feel a posture of submission promotes a better relationship as opposed to a posture of self determination. Remember it is God's righteousness that we don, not that we seek to establish our own.
I understand what you are saying, but you are in error. The Good Word of God shows that they were made heirs of salvation,but turned their backs and they henceforth have lost their salvation. Yes, in the future is when we are saved, but you get salvation "today".

2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

With that said...

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You see, God did what He could to have that person stay. They have tasted of the heavenly gift, and they have received Holy Ghost as those who are saved receive it. They have tasted of God's renewing power, and the good word of God. However, if they shall fall away, they shall not be renewed unto repentance, because they have crucified Jesus Christ afresh. They have put our Saviour to an open shame. So, as now is the day of Salvation, and as every day you are to work your Salvation out with fear and trembling, you can lose that very salvation.

None are doubting the saving power of Jesus Christ, or at least, I'm not. I know what He can do. But what He is able to do for you, you must continue to accept. If He gives you the Holy Ghost, and continually blesses you, but then YOU turn your back, it CANNOT be the fault of God. It is your very OWN fault. God can continue to bless you, there is no doubt in His power. If the human who turned their back, did not, they would have INDEED been saved by ther merits of God. But, by the simple fact that after a while they chose to turn their backs to God, it is NOT God's fault they have turned their fact. It is NOT because God didn't do all He could. It is simply because THEY turned their backs on God. They have then lost their salvation through their OWN fault. God gave them the adequate ability to be saved. They however after a time of accepting God's ability, firmly turned around and REJECTED that adequate ability. Much like the ones who have the seed sown in stony ground. They become heirs for a little while, but they are offended at the Word, REJECT any further power, and then decide THEY would rather die in their sins.
 

justaname

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Raeneske said:
I understand what you are saying, but you are in error. The Good Word of God shows that they were made heirs of salvation,but turned their backs and they henceforth have lost their salvation. Yes, in the future is when we are saved, but you get salvation "today".
I assume here you are referring to the Hebrews 6:4-6 passage. Show me in black and white exactly where in that passage it says they were made heirs of salvation.
I am certain here you are in error.
I agree you get salvation the moment God gives His mercy and grace towards you through your faith in Jesus Christ, and that salvation is a salvation that God Himself brings into completion. Hebrews 12:2

Raeneske said:
2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Actually this verse underscores my case I am making according to the same commentary.

6:2. Paul’s quotation from Isaiah 49:8 was a rebuttal to Judaizers who wanted to impose the Mosaic Law as a means of obtaining righteousness. In Isaiah God announced that salvation would be universally offered not only to stubborn Israel but also to the Gentiles (Isa. 49:6). The quotation underscored the fact that salvation is God’s initiative: in … My favor I heard you, and … I helped you. Jesus inaugurated this message of God’s grace in His ministry (Luke 4:18-21) and Paul communicated it. The day of salvation is the present Age of Grace. Paul urged the Corinthians not to spurn that grace by turning to Judaistic legalism (cf. 2 Cor. 3:12-16; Gal. 3:1-6). To do so would be “to receive God’s grace in vain” (2 Cor. 6:1).

This is the same point I keep driving home. Salvation is God's initiative, is any man strong enough to thwart God's initiative? This is the very warning given in the Hebrews passage, don't go back to Judaism because salvation is through Christ. Don't be like that wilderness generation that did not enter His rest, much rather press on. Hebrews 6:1
Raeneske said:
With that said...

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Again the audience here was in a position where Judaism was looking better than Christianity because of their suffering. Never once in the pericope was the "they" described as saved. It speaks of renewing them again to repentance, but truly nothing more.

Also again you cut short the author's complete thought.
Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

Raeneske said:
You see, God did what He could to have that person stay. They have tasted of the heavenly gift, and they have received Holy Ghost as those who are saved receive it. They have tasted of God's renewing power, and the good word of God.
So God could do nothing more, exhausted all His resources per say? Had His hands tied as it were... You have a different concept of God's sovereignty than I do then. I know God to be all powerful. Jesus speaks as such:

John 10:26-30
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 “I and the Father are one.”

One can readily comprehend with the entirety of scripture that Jesus' sheep are those who are saved. None will be removed.

Let me redirect to the preceding verse to this famous warning passage you seem to so cherish for your incorrect doctrine.
Hebrews 6:3
And this we will do, if God permits.

What the author is admitting here is apparently something you do not. Ultimately everything that happens is by the direct guidance or allowance of God including salvation for every individual that is saved.
Raeneske said:
However, if they shall fall away, they shall not be renewed unto repentance, because they have crucified Jesus Christ afresh. They have put our Saviour to an open shame. So, as now is the day of Salvation, and as every day you are to work your Salvation out with fear and trembling, you can lose that very salvation.
I am sorry the text simply does not support what you are saying here.
Raeneske said:
None are doubting the saving power of Jesus Christ, or at least, I'm not. I know what He can do. But what He is able to do for you, you must continue to accept. If He gives you the Holy Ghost, and continually blesses you, but then YOU turn your back, it CANNOT be the fault of God. It is your very OWN fault.
Here is where I think we get to the root of your argument, you seek to find fault for one who did not receive salvation.
Romans 9:14-16

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Scripturally here the argument is about God's sovereign choices. Those who are brought to salvation are brought through God's sovereign choice, not the individual's works. The works that are involved are again through God who purposed them beforehand. Scripture in it's entirety is very clear on this subject. How can God set Himself up to fail though any believer?


God can continue to bless you, there is no doubt in His power. If the human who turned their back, did not, they would have INDEED been saved by ther merits of God. But, by the simple fact that after a while they chose to turn their backs to God, it is NOT God's fault they have turned their fact. It is NOT because God didn't do all He could. It is simply because THEY turned their backs on God. They have then lost their salvation through their OWN fault. God gave them the adequate ability to be saved. They however after a time of accepting God's ability, firmly turned around and REJECTED that adequate ability. Much like the ones who have the seed sown in stony ground. They become heirs for a little while, but they are offended at the Word, REJECT any further power, and then decide THEY would rather die in their sins.


It is interesting you bring up the parable of the soils, again it furthers my case. Only the good soil receives salvation and thereby is the only one to ever have it, the others only had an illusion of salvation for a time.


UHCAIan said:
Genuine belief produces action and fruit. Salvation is not a mere intellectual contemplation or emotional experience it is evident and based in a changed life. How can you accept a life changing gospel and there is no change in your life? When we accept Jesus as Savior we understand that He has saved us but He also wants and is our Lord which means we must obey Him. Holiness in lifestyle which is a change from sinfulness is the pure evidence of salvation.
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
Matthew 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God."
Romans 6:22 "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life."
Matthew 7:21 ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Luke 6:46 ""Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?"
The only thing I would add here is you can only change your life if God allows.
Hebrews 6:3
 

Raeneske

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justaname said:
I assume here you are referring to the Hebrews 6:4-6 passage. Show me in black and white exactly where in that passage it says they were made heirs of salvation.
I am certain here you are in error.
I agree you get salvation the moment God gives His mercy and grace towards you through your faith in Jesus Christ, and that salvation is a salvation that God Himself brings into completion. Hebrews 12:2

Actually this verse underscores my case I am making according to the same commentary.

6:2<strong class='bbc'>.</strong> Paul’s quotation from Isaiah 49:8 was a rebuttal to Judaizers who wanted to impose the Mosaic Law as a means of obtaining righteousness. In Isaiah God announced that salvation would be universally offered not only to stubborn Israel but also to the Gentiles (Isa. 49:6). The quotation underscored the fact that <strong class='bbc'>salvation </strong>is <strong class='bbc'>God’s </strong>initiative: <strong class='bbc'>in … My favor I heard you, and … I helped you. </strong>Jesus inaugurated this message of God’s grace in His ministry (Luke 4:18-21) and Paul communicated it. <strong class='bbc'>The day of salvation </strong>is the present Age of Grace. Paul urged the Corinthians not to spurn that grace by turning to Judaistic legalism (cf. 2 Cor. 3:12-16; Gal. 3:1-6). To do so would be “to receive God’s grace in vain” (2 Cor. 6:1).

This is the same point I keep driving home. Salvation is God's initiative, is any man strong enough to thwart God's initiative? This is the very warning given in the Hebrews passage, don't go back to Judaism because salvation is through Christ. Don't be like that wilderness generation that did not enter His rest, much rather<strong class='bbc'> press on.</strong> Hebrews 6:1

Again the audience here was in a position where Judaism was looking better than Christianity because of their suffering. Never once in the pericope was the "they" described as saved. It speaks of renewing them again to repentance, but truly nothing more.

Also again you cut short the author's complete thought.
Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you,<strong class='bbc'> and things that accompany salvation</strong>, though we are speaking in this way.

So God could do nothing more, exhausted all His resources per say? Had His hands tied as it were... You have a different concept of God's sovereignty than I do then. I know God to be all powerful. Jesus speaks as such:

John 10:26-30
<p class='bbc_indent' style='margin-left: 40px;'>27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;</p>
<p class='bbc_indent' style='margin-left: 40px;'>28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.</p>
<p class='bbc_indent' style='margin-left: 40px;'>29 “My Father, who has given <em class='bbc'>them </em>to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch <em class='bbc'>them</em> out of the Father’s hand.</p>
<p class='bbc_indent' style='margin-left: 40px;'>30 “I and the Father are one.”</p>

One can readily comprehend with the entirety of scripture that Jesus' sheep are those who are saved. None will be removed.

Let me redirect to the preceding verse to this famous warning passage you seem to so cherish for your incorrect doctrine.
Hebrews 6:3
And this we will do, if God permits.

What the author is admitting here is apparently something you do not. Ultimately everything that happens is by the direct guidance or allowance of God including salvation for every individual that is saved.
I am sorry the text simply does not support what you are saying here.
Here is where I think we get to the root of your argument, you seek to find fault for one who did not receive salvation.
Romans 9:14-16

<p class='bbc_indent' style='margin-left: 40px;'><strong class='bbc'>14</strong> What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!</p>
<p class='bbc_indent' style='margin-left: 40px;'>15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”</p>
<p class='bbc_indent' style='margin-left: 40px;'><strong class='bbc'>16 So then it <em class='bbc'>does </em>not <em class='bbc'>depend </em>on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. </strong></p>

Scripturally here the argument is about God's sovereign choices. Those who are brought to salvation are brought through God's sovereign choice, not the individual's works. The works that are involved are again through God who purposed them beforehand. Scripture in it's entirety is very clear on this subject. How can God set Himself up to fail though any believer?


God can continue to bless you, there is no doubt in His power. If the human who turned their back, did not, they would have INDEED been saved by ther merits of God. But, by the simple fact that after a while they chose to turn their backs to God, it is NOT God's fault they have turned their fact. It is NOT because God didn't do all He could. It is simply because THEY turned their backs on God. They have then lost their salvation through their OWN fault. God gave them the adequate ability to be saved. They however after a time of accepting God's ability, firmly turned around and REJECTED that adequate ability. Much like the ones who have the seed sown in stony ground. They become heirs for a little while, but they are offended at the Word, REJECT any further power, and then decide THEY would rather die in their sins.


It is interesting you bring up the parable of the soils, again it furthers my case. Only the good soil receives salvation and thereby is the only one to ever have it, the others only had an illusion of salvation for a time.


The only thing I would add here is you can only change your life if God allows.
Hebrews 6:3
The fact that they actually received the Holy Ghost, and tasted of the blessings of God is PROOF that they were heirs of salvation. Such is understood by other passages within scripture that they were in fact heirs of salvation, before turning their backs. Notice two good gifts God gives to the saved ones:

Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Two good gifts God gives to the ones who are saved are the "ministering spirits" (angels) and the Holy Ghost. How do I know the Holy Ghost? Because a wordling cannot receive the Holy Ghost. Those who have obtained salvation are the only ones who can receive the Holy Ghost. The world doesn't know Him. Someone pretending to be a Christian cannot receive the Holy Ghost. God only gives the Holy Ghost to the obediant ones, the ones who are saved, who are not of this world. The heirs of salvation are the only ones who receive such gifts. Not a fake.

You are to work out Salvation. Yes, it is through the strength of God, and it is not through your own power. But you still have a will which you and you alone control. God does not encroach upon your will. If you do not want walk as a Christian anymore, God will not force you. Such a thing does not demonstrate weakness, or a lack of Sovereignty on God's part. It is not strength that overthrows God. Mankind does not do so, it is impossible. But this is not to conclude that mankind cannot turn around and say, "No." The very fact that you still sin proves that point. Is God all of a sudden weak, because you yourself chose to sin? Does not scripture say you shall no longer be a servant to sin? Christ has made us free indeed from sin. But does this mean you still do not choose to sin? Absolutely not. Are you somehow overthrowing God when such a thing happens? No. You are simply REJECTING the power God is giving you. You have that option, God does not force himself on you.

You're proving my point yourself. "Don't go back to Judaism... Salvation through Christ". Yeah, don't turn back to your own vomit, because Salvation is through Christ. You are heirs of Salvation, having received the Holy Ghost, and many other good gifts of God. If you therefore shall then your back, it shall be impossible for you to be renewed to repentance, seeing as how you crucified the Saviour afresh.

You just presented the fact that though they received what God gave them, they still could have done what? Chose to turn their backs. Only heirs of salvation receive the Holy Ghost, not some random person. A Christian, who becomes saved becomes an heir of salvation. A Christian receives the Holy Ghost, men and women who God starts making Holy, and shall have you perfected. Not someone like the vipers in the John the Baptist's day.

You say this passage says nothing about them being heirs of salvation, and then you quote the very verse that proves that they were heirs of salvation, and speaks of their salvation.

The fact that scripture is clear on the subject, you are right. However, you are incorrect in what you're stating. I honestly don't know how to show to you that you still have a choice. And that's the fact of the matter. You having a choice doesn't make God weak. You're entitled to your choices. He wants people to love Him, not robots. That's why you carry your free will. Somehow you interpret a human being turning their arrogant backs on God, to meaning God is the weak one. That will never cease to amaze me. I'm at a loss for words at such a claim.
 

logabe

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No... but you can lose your reward. We get confused with God's judgments
and as Christians we think God is telling us we have lost our salvation, but
in reality, we have lost our BIRTHRIGHT. In essense, we have given up the
Age to come, which is, "the Tabernacles Age", where the devil will be chained
up for a thousand years.

That doesn't mean you will not be saved from the wrath to come, but it does
mean you will not rule and reign with Jesus Christ and you will have to await
the general resurrection. In other words, you will be raised with the unbelievers.

Read 1st Cor. 3:13 very carefully,

13 each man's work will become evident ; for the day
will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and
the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

The fire is the Divine Law that God uses to give us a road map as to how He
expects us to live. For instants, thou shall not kill, thou shall not bear false
witness, thou shall not commit adultry, but the most important Law was to Love
God and your neighbor. If we learn these two Laws, God's mercy and grace will
be in our lives abundantly. Verse 14 says,

14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains,
he will receive a reward.

You will receive a crown that fades not away. In essense, you will become a
King in God's Kingdom, and you will have dominion over all the earth. God will
bless you, and you will be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and
subdue it, not by the power of the flesh, but by the power of the Spirit. Now,
let's get back to the 15th verse,

15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss ;
but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

If you never learn as a Christian how to submit to the Spirit of God and His
Divine Law, your work's will be burned up. God's Law is a road map to the
Promised Land, and if we don't like the way God does things, and begin to do
things for God the way we want too, then God will disqualify us, and we will
miss the next Great Age to come. We will be saved from the Lake of Fire, but
we will still need correction when we are raised in the general resurrection a
thousand years later.

The New Covenant is where God writes His Divine Laws in our hearts and in
our minds if we become obedient to His Words. If we don't allow him to do
this for us, we will become lawless and most of the time we will not even
notice we are fighting against God. You will be destroyed and you will not be
able to experience the Greatest Age that has ever been. But, in all of this, God
will still raise you up @ a later date. Hebrews 8:10 says,

10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH
THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD :
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE
THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND
THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW
CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW
THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO
THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND
I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

justaname

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Raeneske said:
The fact that they actually received the Holy Ghost, and tasted of the blessings of God is PROOF that they were heirs of salvation. Such is understood by other passages within scripture that they were in fact heirs of salvation, before turning their backs. Notice two good gifts God gives to the saved ones:

Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
So my question to you is those Israelites who were in the wilderness, were they allowed to enter the promised rest? Did they not receive the Holy Ghost when He tabernacled among them?

Raeneske said:
John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Two good gifts God gives to the ones who are saved are the "ministering spirits" (angels) and the Holy Ghost. How do I know the Holy Ghost? Because a wordling cannot receive the Holy Ghost. Those who have obtained salvation are the only ones who can receive the Holy Ghost. The world doesn't know Him. Someone pretending to be a Christian cannot receive the Holy Ghost. God only gives the Holy Ghost to the obediant ones, the ones who are saved, who are not of this world. The heirs of salvation are the only ones who receive such gifts. Not a fake.
What you speak of here is the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Here you and I agree, thank you.
Raeneske said:
You are to work out Salvation. Yes, it is through the strength of God, and it is not through your own power. But you still have a will which you and you alone control. God does not encroach upon your will. If you do not want walk as a Christian anymore, God will not force you. Such a thing does not demonstrate weakness, or a lack of Sovereignty on God's part. It is not strength that overthrows God. Mankind does not do so, it is impossible. But this is not to conclude that mankind cannot turn around and say, "No." The very fact that you still sin proves that point. Is God all of a sudden weak, because you yourself chose to sin? Does not scripture say you shall no longer be a servant to sin? Christ has made us free indeed from sin. But does this mean you still do not choose to sin? Absolutely not. Are you somehow overthrowing God when such a thing happens? No. You are simply REJECTING the power God is giving you. You have that option, God does not force himself on you.
This is the topic of another thread I will be posting shortly.
Raeneske said:
You're proving my point yourself. "Don't go back to Judaism... Salvation through Christ". Yeah, don't turn back to your own vomit, because Salvation is through Christ. You are heirs of Salvation, having received the Holy Ghost, and many other good gifts of God. If you therefore shall then your back, it shall be impossible for you to be renewed to repentance, seeing as how you crucified the Saviour afresh.

You just presented the fact that though they received what God gave them, they still could have done what? Chose to turn their backs. Only heirs of salvation receive the Holy Ghost, not some random person. A Christian, who becomes saved becomes an heir of salvation. A Christian receives the Holy Ghost, men and women who God starts making Holy, and shall have you perfected. Not someone like the vipers in the John the Baptist's day.
Here you are mistaken. My claim is this, if it were that they did go back to Judaism they would have proven they were not saved. 1John 2:19
Raeneske said:
You say this passage says nothing about them being heirs of salvation, and then you quote the very verse that proves that they were heirs of salvation, and speaks of their salvation.
If you are an heir to salvation you will receive it, if you do not receive it you were never really an heir to begin with. Again man may be fooled but God is not.
Raeneske said:
The fact that scripture is clear on the subject, you are right. However, you are incorrect in what you're stating. I honestly don't know how to show to you that you still have a choice. And that's the fact of the matter. You having a choice doesn't make God weak. You're entitled to your choices. He wants people to love Him, not robots. That's why you carry your free will. Somehow you interpret a human being turning their arrogant backs on God, to meaning God is the weak one. That will never cease to amaze me. I'm at a loss for words at such a claim.
Arrogant humans can turn their backs on God, to this I concede. I just make the claim that those who are saved will not.



Only those who are Jesus' sheep are saved. Those who are not His sheep are not saved. I think here is where we agree. Pretty simple logic.
Only those who follow Him and hear His voice are His sheep, these are saved. Those who do not are not saved and were never going to be saved because they are not His sheep. This must be where we disagree.


Also in reference to the above post by Logabe, most scholars agree it is rewards that are lost in the Hebrews 6:4-6 passage.....
 

Raeneske

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Sep 18, 2012
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logabe said:
No... but you can lose your reward. We get confused with God's judgments
and as Christians we think God is telling us we have lost our salvation, but
in reality, we have lost our BIRTHRIGHT. In essense, we have given up the
Age to come, which is, "the Tabernacles Age", where the devil will be chained
up for a thousand years.

That doesn't mean you will not be saved from the wrath to come, but it does
mean you will not rule and reign with Jesus Christ and you will have to await
the general resurrection. In other words, you will be raised with the unbelievers.

Read 1st Cor. 3:13 very carefully,

13 each man's work will become evident ; for the day
will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and
the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

The fire is the Divine Law that God uses to give us a road map as to how He
expects us to live. For instants, thou shall not kill, thou shall not bear false
witness, thou shall not commit adultry, but the most important Law was to Love
God and your neighbor. If we learn these two Laws, God's mercy and grace will
be in our lives abundantly. Verse 14 says,

14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains,
he will receive a reward.

You will receive a crown that fades not away. In essense, you will become a
King in God's Kingdom, and you will have dominion over all the earth. God will
bless you, and you will be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and
subdue it, not by the power of the flesh, but by the power of the Spirit. Now,
let's get back to the 15th verse,

15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss ;
but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

If you never learn as a Christian how to submit to the Spirit of God and His
Divine Law, your work's will be burned up. God's Law is a road map to the
Promised Land, and if we don't like the way God does things, and begin to do
things for God the way we want too, then God will disqualify us, and we will
miss the next Great Age to come. We will be saved from the Lake of Fire, but
we will still need correction when we are raised in the general resurrection a
thousand years later.

The New Covenant is where God writes His Divine Laws in our hearts and in
our minds if we become obedient to His Words. If we don't allow him to do
this for us, we will become lawless and most of the time we will not even
notice we are fighting against God. You will be destroyed and you will not be
able to experience the Greatest Age that has ever been. But, in all of this, God
will still raise you up @ a later date. Hebrews 8:10 says,

10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH
THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD :
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE
THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND
THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW
CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW
THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO
THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
The ones who knew the Lord's will, and did it not are not declared to still receive a "positive" reward. To built a foundation upon sand is to build your faith upon something which is not Christ. That is why to some Christians Christ becomes a "rock of offense" and "a stumbling block". The ones who have not done their Lord's will are not described as saved, for the Lord made this abundantly clear:

Matthew 7:21-27 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Luke 12:47-48 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


Hebrews 8:10 is not referring to some huge future event. This was propecied which the Lord would do when He made the New Covenant. He has already been putting His law in the inward parts of Christians.

Now, if anyone is awakened woth the unbelievers, they are not claimed to be saved. The rest of the dead are doomed, there are no exceptions.

Revelation 20:3-5, 7-0 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

justaname said:
Also in reference to the above post by Logabe, most scholars agree it is rewards that are lost in the Hebrews 6:4-6 passage.....
Well, that just goes to show that most scholars do not agree with the good Word of God.

It is evident God gives the Holy Ghost to believers, heirs of Salvation, and not Joe Schmoe down the street. View how the disciples had to come together -- even the disciples -- and pray earnestly for the Holy Ghost. It is not some gift God tosses to someone who is not saved. Angels also minister to the heirs of Salvation. You can lose your salvation, end of discussion.
 

biggandyy

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Raeneske said:
You can lose your salvation, end of discussion.
NOT.

Since salvation was never ours, never sought after by us, never even agreed to be accepted by us, how then can we lose something that God sovereignly applies to our sin account completely and utterly against our free will?

After salvation we can and do behave as though we never possessed salvation, but we can't discard it as one would an expired lottery ticket. Salvation is more part of our being than a hand or an eye which can be lopped off or gouged out. Salvation is more permanent than death, stronger than life, and defines us so completely it is amazing the Father allows us the continued use of our free will to obstinately defy Him.

But, God does not choose to save us from His eternal punishment and then hope against hope we keep His gift of eternal life. That would make God contingent upon something and one of the divine attributes of God is He is contingent upon nothing (including Himself-- that means He does not second guess Himself). No, God loves so completely that, even after saving us (even though if given the opportunity to agree to salvation 100% of us would reject it out of hand), He allows us to express our new found love in Him and His Son freely, without compulsion or intimidation, despite the fact we more often than not spit on our Risen Savior and grind His love beneath the heals of our hedonist self-aggrandizement.

No, we can not lose salvation, though we hardly have scratched the surface of what it means to actually be Saved. Proof? We are so full of ourselves we believe we can throw away that joyous salvation on a whim, a wave of our self righteous hand, essentially telling God, "Your salvation wasn't strong enough to save me, my sin is stronger than your Savior, my will is superior to Yours. Next time bring Your A-game when you try to save me."

In this light, don't you all sound silly?
 

Graceismine

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Bigg Andyy

Since salvation was never ours, never sought after by us, never even agreed to be accepted by us, how then can we lose something that God sovereignly applies to our sin account completely and utterly against our free will?
Just wondering if that statement comes from the Calvinist viewpoint.

Your mention of God doing something against our free will doesn't make sense to me. Adam & Eve demonstrated the free will that God endowed upon them.

I find it difficult to imagine how a person who is born again can lose his/her salvation but when I take it to fuller thinking I would say that our God given free will allows us to reject Him.


1 Timothy 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons (my bold)
 

Raeneske

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BiggAndyy,

Really? So, God created Adam and Eve, and even Satan but also gave them free will. Is it because God is weak, the Satan took 1/3 of the angels, and most of mankind with him? Adam and Eve were created, good, holy and healthy. They still chose to sin. Was God's goodness to "weak" to sustain them? No. The point is a matter of free will.

God will put His hand out to save you repeatedly. Guess who fault it is, if you take His hand, but then decide to let go.
 

biggandyy

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GIM, You bolded the wrong words:
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons (your bold)

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons (my bold)

We have to define who the "some" are and how the article "the" is used to properly understand what Paul is explaining to Timothy. This is, of course, about future times and the coming Great Apostasy. But are the some composed of believers or non-believers? I think the answer lies 3 words down with the article "the".

Now, does "the faith" re-rendered as "the faith of some" make sense in the passage?

The Spirit clearly says that in later times the faith of some will be abandoned and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons

That is essentially the same thing as the original. But the original is written as "some will abandon the faith". I posit that the "some" is actually non-believers because of the article "the" rather than the plural possessive "their". If it were believers it would have been written "some will abandon their faith". But it's not so we are left to ponder the "some".

Let's rephrase the verse with our new notion
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some non believers will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons

It does not violate any formal laws of logic or reasoning but it is adding to scripture (adding a word). So we must tread carefully lest we infiltrate our conclusion into our investigation of scripture.

Now you are asking the logical question, "How can someone abandon something they don't believe in?" But that is begging the question, is it possible to believe without faith? James 2:19 shows us it can:

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder"

It is much easier to swallow that a non believer to abandon a faith system they have no faith in than for a True believer (saved) to volunteer their salvation to follow demons and false teachings.

But let's also not set aside that the SOME mentioned in the original passage may indeed be saved believers and they are indeed abandoning their fidelity to Christ, but that still does not raise their traitorous behavior to the level of "loss of salvation". They may just be deceived for a season and after correction be reconciled with their faith and their first Love which is Christ Jesus.


Raeneske said:
Adam and Eve were created, good, holy and healthy. They still chose to sin.


Notice even in your own words admit they were created "good", not "perfect".

Adam and Eve were the only two humans alive with the free will to obey or disobey God. The rest of us, through their transgression, lost the ability to freely choose to love and please God, that is why Christ had to come and die for us, and THAT is the Gospel in a nutshell.

We are free to sin to our heart's desire but we are not free to choose to obey God for we are slaves to our sin and chained by unrighteousness. How many times does Paul have to remind his churches of that simple fact over and over again?

As for your part about God extending out His hand over and over again... pretty word picture but I believe in a God who has hold of me and no matter how hard I try to break free from my Father's loving hand, just like my 3 year old son, could not for His hold was strong and fast and unyielding, the way a Father's loving handhold should be.
 

Raeneske

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BiggAndyy,

I'm sure the Lord says that there were some who knew His will, and did not do it. They receive more stripes, than one who did not.

The Holy Ghost is given to Christ's followers, the heirs of Salvation. If you cannot believe that, do a study to see what gifts the heirs of salvation receive.

That's bologna. The Lord doesn't force you into His camp. You can run away if you want. And that's what Hebrews repeatedly shows you. You can walk away from Salvation, it is not something you cannot lose.

I've exhausted all options at this point.
 

biggandyy

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Raeneske said:
I've exhausted all options at this point.

Then try the option you haven't; the Truth. Salvation is the monergistic, sovereign work of the Lord upon those He pleases, it is neither reward or curse.
 

Raeneske

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BiggAndyy said:
Then try the option you haven't; the Truth. Salvation is the monergistic, sovereign work of the Lord upon those He pleases, it is neither reward or curse.
The good word of God does not ever strip man of his free will. This fact should be understood, by the fact that you and I are even able to have this conversation. You are allowed to wax stronger in your beliefs, or to grow cold in your feelings towards God. This is your choice. God will not force Himself upon someone to receive salvation.

The fact is that God's Sovereign rule and man's free will co-exist. Man will never be able to overrule the ruling of God, but man can certainly place himself in opposition to that which God is trying to do. When God gives man the gift, it is not arrogant to believe that man has the option to trample upon the Son of God. Man will certainly pay for such a hellish act, but nonetheless, that man wanted to reject the Son of God. What is arrogance, is to believe once you have obtained salvation you may never lose it, no matter your actions. This is not the path of light that leads to God, but the path that leads to ruin. It is the same, "Do as thou wilt" spirit that runs around trying to convince people that disobeying God is not a big deal -- since He forgives them for their disobediance anyways.

Hebrews 10:26-27, and Hebrews 6:4-6 are clear. It is impossible for us if we willfully sin, after receiving knowledge of the truth, to retain our salvation. The only thing that remains, is a fearful looking towards of judgement. The Holy Ghost is one of the gifts given to the heirs of Salvation. If a righteous man turns back to his iniquity, all his goodness will be forgotten. It is a principle and theme that runs through the Bible.
 

biggandyy

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Raeneske said:
God will not force Himself upon someone to receive salvation.
Then no one would be saved for no one seeks salvation, no, not one.

It is the same, "Do as thou wilt" spirit that runs around trying to convince people that disobeying God is not a big deal -- since He forgives them for their disobediance anyways.
You are putting words in my mouth that I have not typed. I am not diminishing the awfulness of sin, rather the opposite, I am elevating for everyone to see the ghastly ruin sin can do even after we are quickened and saved.

And no, our disobedience may be forgiven, but we will still have to stand before the Bema Seat of Christ and face His judgement on our free use of the Father's gift, that is His precious blood.

And finally your misunderstanding of Hebrews is you are assuming the case that Appollos is speaking of (Hebrews 6) exists when in fact he is stating it is impossible for that case to ever exist, for good or ill.
 

Raeneske

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Then no one would be saved for no one seeks salvation, no, not one.


You are putting words in my mouth that I have not typed. I am not diminishing the awfulness of sin, rather the opposite, I am elevating for everyone to see the ghastly ruin sin can do even after we are quickened and saved.

And no, our disobedience may be forgiven, but we will still have to stand before the Bema Seat of Christ and face His judgement on our free use of the Father's gift, that is His precious blood.

And finally your misunderstanding of Hebrews is you are assuming the case that Appollos is speaking of (Hebrews 6) exists when in fact he is stating it is impossible for that case to ever exist, for good or ill.

Of course people would be saved. There is a difference between God forcing your down to take salvation, and God working upon your heart, and prompting you to repentence. It is His Spirit that works upon the heart to make you an heir of salvation. God prompts many sinners to repent of their wickedness. It is their choice whether they heed the divine call. In similar manner, God prompts His people to continue on further with their salvation, and it is His strength through faith they must grab ahold of. We are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. None seek, but God calls. And when God calls, some respond for eternity, some respond for a short while then give up, and some refuse to respond at all. So, when a Christian, heir of Salvation, decides they no longer want the heavenly gift, and return to their own vomit, they lose their salvation.

I have placed no words in your mouth, I have no reason to do so. I have however, showed you the spirit by which such a belief comes from. The stance is not found within scripture, that you may never lose it. Scripture shows that you can in fact lose it.

I also cannot see what you are elevating. There is nothing it seems in your explanations, that seem to exalt God. Rather, God is made out be oppresive, forcing His salvation upon souls. This is not freedom. It also does not show how wickedly disgusting sin is, that though the Lord is merciful, he cannot tolerate sin. When an heir of salvation turns his back, he is left to return to his own vomit.

Hebrews 10:26-27 shows that the case for Hebrews 6:4-6 can exist. It shows the willful turnig away, how it is actuated, and then shows what remains. Hebrews 6:4-6 also does not state for such a situation to exist, but that it is impossible when the situation exists, for one to turn back, again to repentance.
 
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biggandyy

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God does not "prompt". I see that as God leaning down and whispering sweet nothings in our ears hoping we turn to face Him with a giggle and embarrassed smile on our faces saying, "Aw shucks, God, I'm sorry."

People might want to appropriate for themselves the benefits of a Godly life but every single man woman and child on this planet are actively running as fast they can away from God. We don't want God a part of our lives.

His calling likewise is not as crass as you make it out to be. The Father doesn't leap off His throne in heaven and put us in a full nelson and badger us like the Spanish Inquisition (confess, Confess, CONFESS!) All of us have a heart of blackest coal and until He gives us a heart of flesh do we even realize we need a savior but by then it's already too late, we have been translated from death to life, from ruin to reward. We can't give ourselves to Jesus fast enough after receiving the Holy Spirit's quickening and piercing of our hearts.

It's what we do with our salvation AFTER we are saved that is our choice, our struggle, our success, and our failure. But we can never so epically fail as to lose that what God gave us in the first place. No, we can't even give it back if we try.