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Do you have anything to say from Scripture rather than what you make up?
None of the replies on this thread can comment on the central line of logic which proves the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet from the original post.
A secondary proof can be found in Rev 14-16 where the Harvest comes before the final battle at Armageddon.
It's really hard to discuss in ordered, logical argument, complex Biblical issues to people who go on childlike, watered down, baby's milk - man logic.
You, like many others who cling to a simple "last day" concept of the Rapture, can no more defend your position from Scripture other than to recite the mantra of your simple belief that "last means last." Spare me the simple explanation via your Strong's Concordance; as far as study goes, all that shows me is that you haven't done any past scratching the surface.
You cannot and simply will not examine Scripture, in context, to follow the trail which shows that the Last Trumpet, one of three blown by God to assemble the Elect, happens concurrently with the unfolding Day of the Lord of the sixth Seal - and as such is absolutely precluded from being one and the same as one of seven Trumpets, blown by Angels, which announce God's Wrath to the unbelieving, and unrepentant world!
A secondary proof of Revelation chapters 14-16 show that the Harvest of Saints, which includes the Rapture, happens before the final battle at Armageddon.
And again, what you have is nothing. It IS simple, and what you contend - aside from the Bible, is simply wrong. Don't tell me about truth when what you offer for truth is nothing more than your uninformed opinion - like saying "Islam will dominate the world," which is your avatar - which is also Biblically wrong and not correct.
Or how you are misled, or would misled others? Is this like your notion that Islam will dominate the world when the Bible says the King of the North will gain the whole world (and lose his soul)?You actually believe that the day of the Lord unfolds at the sixth seal? It's impressive to see how misled you are.
Well you can say that and as the coming of Jesus on the clouds is described three times in the New Testament at Mt 24:29-31, 1th 4:16-17, and Rev 14:14-16 - I would agree with you, not because you are so intelligent as to get one thing right, but because it is IN the Bible!I say that the Day of the Lord occurs at Revelation 14.
the day of the Lord is near and what appears to be the same celestial event (sun and moon) occurs before the day of the Lord.
But Jesus say's this event occurs immediately after the tribulation!,
And again, you’re mixing your belief here sam. While the first foundation I have in my Christian theology is that the Bible is true... the Bible NEVER says the Last Trumpet is the LAST TRUMPET only. You are making that distinction. Now if you want to take some time and study 'trumpets' you'd be embarking on a wonderful little side study which would enrich your understanding and broaden your thinking on how God uses trumpets, which are His, and the various uses for trumpets, their calls, and even how they are made. You would find out that there are named Trumpets in the Bible which are said to be "God's." This is what I have been trying to teach some of you who rather simply insist, 'last means last.' Ha! Would that it be so simple, but it is not!
1. The Bible says that we are taken up at the Last Trumpet: 1Co 15:51-52.
2. Paul, who wrote that, previously said (in real time) that this taking up would be on the Day of Christ: 2Th 2:1-2.
3. Paul previously said to that true fact in the Bible that the taking up would be when we would meet Jesus in the sky: 1Th 4:16-17.
4. Jesus, our highest authority in the Bible, also said He would come on the clouds to gather the Elect: Mt 24:30-31.
5. Jesus also said this would happen AFTER the sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord, or the Day of Christ: Mt 24:29.
6. The sun/moon/star event of the Olivet Discourse is repeated (not verbatim, but that is not necessary) in the sixth Seal: Rev 6:12-14.
7. Likewise, it is after the sun/moon/star event of the sixth Seal that we find the Great Multitude, coming out of the same Great Tribulation which Jesus said was cut short in the Olivet Discourse - in the third Heaven of God the Father's Temple: Rev 7:9-17.
AND this happens BEFORE the seventh Seal is broken which THEN allows the Trumpets to "announce" God's Wrath!
So I already answered your question in my first response to you.
The Seals take place BEFORE the Trumpets.
The Seals unlock the Scroll.
The Scroll stores the desolations that have been decreed.
When the Scroll is opened, those desolations go forth with the various Trumpet calls.
That is the nature of the Bible: it tells stories. These "stories" (which happen to be true) take the form of linear narratives.
In the Bible, by way of those linear narratives where this happens and then that happens; God tells us the ORDER in which EVENTS take place.
Because the end-times are largely written in linear narratives in parallel to each other, that I can harmonize them to each other around specific and unique events. The Bible is consistent in this regard and the key passage I have which allows for me to discern the order is Jesus' Olivet Discourse. Many who prefer a Pre-Trib or a classical Post-Trib eschatology will fight what is written in the Olivet Discourse tooth and nail. But then, I think they have too much emotional reasoning invested in their own pet theories to actually submit to what God has already ordained to happen. I had to change my own notions of the Rapture after I studied along this course, but it has been most rewarding.
Nonsense.You keep pushing that "linear narrative" idea from men's doctrines, but it is a FALSEHOOD when it comes to the Books of the prophets and Revelation.
The Seals don't happen first, then the Trumpets, and then the Vials. Revelation does not cover the exact order they happen. They all happen concurrently, with the 7th of each ending at the same time with the final 7th Sign Jesus gave, which is the time of His coming.
And pretty much of what you're following appears to be a little bit of both Pre-trib and Post-trib theology.
Nowhere does Apostle Paul or our Lord Jesus equate the sounding of the Revelation trumpets with an Old Covenant feast time or time of worship. The sounding of the trumpets in ancient Israel had different purposes, and one purpose was to sound the 'order' of battle, a specific representation of Israel's use of trumpets that you appear to want to skip... altogether.
Paul was pulling from Isaiah 25 about that event, which goes with what he was teaching there. Nowhwere in 1 Cor.15 does he say we are removed from this earth, but that all on earth are changed at the twinkling of an eye, on the last trump (trumpet). The 'harpazo' ("caught up") event of 1 Thess.4 is about Christ gathering His elect ONLY, from both Heaven and on earth,
…and then the Zechariah 14 Scripture reveals where, with His taking them to Jerusalem on earth. The "last trump" Paul mentioned cannot be any other trumpet than the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11, for it is the final trumpet in the battle plan of Revelation.
Nonsense.
In the Olivet Discourse, Matthew orders Jesus’ Words with the adverb “then,” conjunctions like "and," verb tense, and outright ordering "immediately after" which sets the order.
v. 15: So when – a statement of time: the midpoint abomination
v. 16: Then – giving the order: those in Judea flee at the midpoint invasion (Gog-Magog War)
v. 21: For then there WILL be – Great Tribulation – which follows the erection of the talking image of Rev 13:14-15 with two onerous laws we are explicitly told to disobey or die eternally in the very next writing John does: Rev 13:15-17.
v. 22: Those days WILL be shortened – happens after the Great Tribulation
v. 23: At that time – during the Great Tribulation
v. 29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER – explicitly setting the order that the sun/moon/star event is connected to and follows the Great Tribulation.
v. 30: Then will appear – after the sun/moon/star sign of the Day of the Lord, the sign of the Son of Man will be seen: I think this is the scrolling of the sky as Jesus returns.
v. 31: AND He will send – a conjunction linking His return to the Rapture, and the order is His Return and then our gathering onto Him.
Mt 24:15-31 is the detailed parallel account to the broad overview given in Mt 24:4-14, which also gets to the "end" of the Church Age.
The Bible refutes your spurious and specious charge of “FALSEHOOD!” It appears you are the one perpetrating falsehood.
Furthermore, in the book of Revelation: Jesus gives John the order in which events transpire. The Seals must be broken so the Scroll can be read. That condition is set up in chapter 5. As Jesus breaks the Seals, John numbers the them in the order in which they are broken. The Lamb (Jesus) does not have seven hands… He cannot break all the Seals at once.
Likewise, when the Scroll is opened, seven Trumpets are given to seven Angels. The Angels blow their Trumpets in the order Jesus gave John which he wrote down. The first four come in thirds, and the last three are numbered Woes. The first Woe alone takes five months. The Trumpets cannot blow concurrently and have them all end at the same time as you would like the Bible to read, or the fifth Trumpet would have to precede the first four which act in thirds.
The Scroll is not a codex (a book). Each Seal does not unlock a like-numbered Trumpet. That is not the evidence John reveals. All seven Seals must be broken before any Biblically sized, world-wide desolation goes forth. The Scroll, unlike human scrolls to be sure; it has writing on both side, however, it is still a Scroll: it is not sealed within. The evidence in the Bible is that the Scroll is a scroll and not a book, and that all the Seals are sealing the leading edge which prevents the Scroll from being read – and it contains the desolations that God decreed so long ago that Gabriel told Daniel about it.
The rule is: One follows another.
Nope. You keep sidetracking the debate pinning erroneous labels on me. I am Pre-Wrath and I came to this position after doing an analysis of the sequence of events given in end-time prophecy.
I haven’t skipped that. I mentioned it before. In Day of the Lord prophecy from the OT, you’ll find the Israelites blowing those types of horns as well as other armies sounding the attack.
What you miss is that when Paul wrote 1Co 15:51-52, Revelation hadn’t been written.
What you miss is that Paul was a trained Pharisee.
What you miss is that when Paul wrote 1Co 15:51-52 they were still sounding the Festival Trumpets in Jerusalem at the Temple on the Temple Mount.
The trumpet (or actually horn) blowing on the Feast of Trumpets involved something like 9 soundings after four sets of benedictions were read. It does not align with the 7 Revelation Trumpets and order, especially since the last 3 trumpets of Revelation have specific Woe periods attached to each.
Right.
That's what Tim_from_PA and I have been trying to tell you. As an aspect of first century Jewish living, the Last Trumpet was a known quantity in the fifth decade when Paul wrote this letter to the Corinthians. It was blown every year; even the people around Israel who were not Hebrew would understand the significance of what Paul was saying. He is making a reference to one of the "appointed times" or "Festival" in the Jewish system of worship - which is Biblical because it adheres to the Old Testament Law.
Therefore, by mentioning the Last Trumpet, Paul is pointing to God's Law as a way of demonstrating God's plan for us.
Like the phrase "former and latter rains" in prophecy, and the knocking on the door in Songs of Solomon Son 5:2, Jesus fulfilled the Spring Festivals, showing them to be a kind of template for God's plan of redemption. Even the Seder Feast and the liberation from Egypt stands as a pattern for the larger context of man's struggle with sin and God's plan for redemption. Likewise, the second coming of Christ Jesus will follow the pattern of the Fall Festivals; the end-times are "appointed times" as well for God's intervention in mankind's affairs.
This is not man-made doctrine as you like to accuse others. (Your accusation is wildly ironic, because your eschatology is entirely man-made as well.) Paul said that the Festivals are templates for what is to come - but not the reality. It is just a pattern. Paul said this in Col 2:16-17.
In the sequence of events Jesus lays out in His linear narrative of Mt 24:15-31 - we can also know that this Last Trumpet Rapture happens after the midpoint abomination AND the Great Tribulation -which is shortened by the arrival of the Day of the Lord! Why does Jesus not go on and explain all the desolations that will follow? One, He will, with John who was told things he could not repeat ( 2Co 12:2 ) and two, for the Church, it is not necessary because we will not go through God's Wrath - 1Th 1:10.
SO - during the one 'seven,' after the midpoint abomination (Mt 24:15 & Rev 13:14-15) we have the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:21-22 caused by Rev 13:15-17) which is shortened in time (so some Elect would survive to witness Christ's parousia) by the sudden appearance of the sun/moon/star event (Mt 24:29 & Rev 6:12-14) which precedes the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:30-31) when Jesus comes on the clouds (Mt 24:30 - Rev 14:14 -and- 1Th 3:13 / 1Th 4:16-17) to gather the Elect from the earth (Mt 24:31 - Rev 14:16 and 1Th 4:16-17 again).
This Great Multitude of people show up IN Heaven (not back on earth as you insist at Jerusalem) before God the Father in His Temple in Rev 7:9-17.
The sixth Seal covers a lot of events which unfold when it is broken. We can think of the sixth Seal as revealing the Day of the Lord because that is what happens with it. The signs which start the sixth Seal - an earthquake, the sun/moon/star event, and the second earthquake are God's indelible stamp of authenticity to the world. In the parallel account to the Seal/Scroll account found in Rev chapters 13-16, we can also know that three Angels complete the Gospel as Jesus said was necessary in the broad overview to the end-times in the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:4-14). We also see - in the correct sequence of events from the linear narrative of Bible prophecy in Rev chapter 14 - that the 144,000 are mustered first before the Harvest comes on the clouds - just like with the sixth Seal. The Great Multitude therefore, demonstrate that the Rapture results in our deliverance to Heaven.
It is only AFTER the Harvest of souls to Heaven that the first of seven Trumpets blown by Angels goes forth. This happens after the seventh Seal is broken. The silence in Heaven is replicated on earth - this is the calm before the storm! This is foretold in prophecy: Amos 8:3. Remember: "on earth as it is in Heaven."
During the Days of Awe which follow the Last Trumpet, Israel is to be mournful. This is also a theme of the Day of the Lord to natural Israel - the Day of the Lord is not a welcome day for the Jews. Some of the Jews will be protected - Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:16 again. The "shuffling" of Isa 42:16 is replicated in Rev 16:15! What you point to for the Church is not for the Church! The Church has already been "harvested" in Rev 14:14-16! The only ones left are the Jews and two-thirds of them will die - Zec 13:8!
1. Because the same events of Paul's mention of a LAST TRUMP coincides with the events of the final 7th Trumpet of Rev.11, that's enough to know they are the same trumpet. 2. What you're trying to infer is that the 7th Trumpets of Revelation must align with the trumpets of feasts per the Old Covenant system, 3. a system that was DONE AWAY with by Christ Jesus when He brought The New Covenant. 4. Christianity in the 1st century A.D., did not follow that.
Paul said he preached Christ crucified only. He did not teach the Jews' religion to Christian believers. The "last trump" he was speaking of is the singular trumpet mentioned in the OT prophets about the end of this world, which I gave those Scriptures in my previous post.
Sergeant, I really think you're quite incapable of changing your mind. Your mind is made up, and like the authority figure you were in the military, you're used to giving orders and having them obeyed. However, I was a Captain in the USAF flying fighters. I did take orders then from Sergeants nor do I now take orders from your counterparts in the airline industry. I did, on occasion, take their advice, but in my authority and in my judgment, I did not always act on their suggestions. Likewise, I reject your whole eschatology. In fact, I laugh at how contorted you have to construct the Bible in order to make it say what you want it to say: a very simple end and a Rapture on the last of the one 'seven.'
1. The EVENTS of 1Co 15:51-52 COINCIDE with the EVENTS of the seventh Trumpet? That is your conclusion, and quite a leap of conclusion you have to perform as well! To do so, you have to re-order the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowl Judgments willy-nilly to get the effect you want.
The evidence is that NONE of the events Paul mentions are ever mentioned in the latter part of the Seal/Scroll chronology.
2. I am absolutely NOT inferring that the seven numbered Trumpets blown by Angels align with the named Trumpets of God which are associated with the Festivals, or "appointed times" of God's.
I am really at a loss of how I can agree with you that they are not the same and you read something exactly opposite.
I really question your reading skills at this point and I think I can understand how you can literally read what you want to read when it comes to the Bible.
3. Please name all the Laws that Jesus said He did away with.
I'll give you a hint: Mt 5:18.
4, This is not true as well. The first Christians, Messianic Jews - still worshipped God through the Judaic Worship system when there was a Temple in Jerusalem.
This evidence can be found in Acts 21:24-26. The first Christians, the Messianic Jews of Jerusalem, worshipped in the Temple, taught in the Temple, observed the Sabbath (sundown Friday through the daylight hours of Saturday) and taught in Synagogues in Asia Minor and other towns.
What we have in history, is a divorce between Christianity and Judaism so that Christians, already persecuted, were not also persecuted when the Jews were persecuted. As a result of this schism, starting around the 4th century, we have lost our Judaic roots even though we still refer to our morals and value-system as being Judeo-Christian. Christians later on actually persecuted Jews. Because of this separation, people like you do not know about the significance of the Festivals which adds a layer of understanding to the two Advents of Christ Jesus.
Now, because I think you will misconstrue what I am saying - you cannot even get my eschatology correctly even when I tell you I am not "Pre-Trib," - I am not saying we have to follow the Law to perfection. Obedience to the Law does not impart Salvation; the Law cannot "save" anyone. As a Christian, I profess that Salvation can only come about by faith in Christ Jesus. To that end, while I do not follow the law of circumcision, I do try to follow the moral law, and even with that, I fall short and I still sin - 1Jn 1:8-10.
In your previous post, you mentioned Isa 18 - that is a battle trumpet against Cush which comes with God's Wrath.
Zec 9 - is a Day of the Lord trumpet but Zechariah's vision does not distinguish it from the Last Trumpet gathering the Elect versus a battle Trumpet fought in one of the two battles which are prophesied to occur on the Day of the Lord: one around Jerusalem, and the other to the south near Bethlehem. Because of the location, this trumpet in Zechariah may be one blown in the Valley of Decision.
Isa 27 is the Great Trumpet - it is associated with Yom Kippur and comes after the Last Trumpet. This assembly trumpet calls the Remnant and the few surviving people of the other nations to Israel: to Mount Zion.
Ps 47 is a generic reference to trumpets... and trumpets can be blown in celebration. That is yet another type of trumpet as different from announcement trumpets as they are from assembly trumpets and as different as each is to battle trumpets. Trumpets serve many roles; you confuse them eagerly.
Now I have gone over all the differences between the Trumpets, and that has fallen on deaf ears. You say the Trumpet of Mt 24:31 is the same as the Trumpet of Rev 11:15 - yet in the first case, Jesus blows the Trumpet and as evidenced by the plain language in Revelation, an Angel blows the seventh Trumpet. The evidence you provide does not line up; it does not match. Yet you will continue to call an announcement Trumpet which heralds God's Wrath - an assembly Trumpet calling the Elect together. Those two events are not even close to being alike, yet you will continue to try to "win" the case for your man-made eschatology.