The Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet

teleiosis · Jul 5, 2012

veteran said:
My handle here is not "Sergeant". And your idiotic anti-military slurs only reveal how far you've gotten outside of God's Word, for you've totally left it now for that milly-mouthed mocking speech.

Stand down sergeant. Mocking the United States Hair Farce is hardly grounds for judging the soundness of a person's theology or eschatology for that matter. In fact, being one with the first terrible beast of Daniel 7 as a good Roman soldier, albeit dressed in your best Air Force ice cream suit (love those light blue shirts!) just weds you to the King of the North - and Cush could very stand for America in Isaiah. America is a type of Babylon and al it has now to offer the world, other than its military, it mouthing platitudes about greatness. No wonder the first beast of Daniel ends up being the mouthpiece for the fourth terrible beast of Rev 13:2. This conversation has dissolved into ad hominem attacks largely aimed from your sector safe behind the lines at some Air Force base. (Only Officers are pilots in the USAF - it is the only branch which puts its Officers on the front line and keeps its enlisted folk safely back at base.)

Now I have shown that the Last Trumpet of 1Co 15:51-52 takes place in the same context of 1Th 4:16-17 = the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ. You contest that by simply saying it is not the same. That is not a valid argument; show why these two short passages are not in the same context as the time when Christ calls His Church home.

For I am not going to go on your word simply because you say so. I am a good Berean, and I check the Bible; I do not rely simply on the word of a man simply because he likes to throw his weight around.

As far as Mt 24:31, the trumpet there is in the Genitive case for a Greek noun.
That means in ordinary terms, that possession is shown.
Since Christ sends Angels out with a "great" (the Greek uses megas) Trumpet, and that trumpet has possession attached to it: then we can legitimately infer it is Christ's Trumpet.

Again, there are three named Trumpets of God; they come in the order specified by the Festivals which is a Hebrew word which means "appointed times." If you have an appointment with God - I suggest you keep it unless you really, really want to be in trouble with God. And it is a terrible thing to fall into the Hands of an angry God! Appointed times are a very important part of God's Plan. Both Jesus and Paul are making reference to Rosh ha-Shanah when they talk about an "unknown day" and the "Last Trumpet."

The First Trumpet assembled Israel to Mt Sinai to hear the Law. It is associated with the Festival of Weeks.
In the NT, at the Festival of Weeks celebrating that moment in history; the Church was assembled with the washing of the Holy Spirit. This is the beginning of the Church Age: when faith alone is the only measure for entry.

The Last Trumpet is part of the Rosh ha-Shanah worship service and it begins the Festival of Trumpets.
In the end-times, the Last Trumpet is the "last call" assembling the Church out of here; like the wedding analogy - we come out of our house (earth) and meet Jesus in the air (the husband would be in the street) and return with Him to His Father's House (the barn of Heaven). This marks the end of the Church Age when all who would be selected by God enter His Sanctuary: the Temple in Heaven.

The Great Trumpet is an assembly trumpet for Yom Kippur.
In the end-times, it is when the Remnant Jews finally have the veil of Moses lifted and they see their Messiah King as being the same Servant Messiah they had previously rejected. Make no mistake about it: as much as God loves His Church, He has not forgotten or forsaken the woman Israel. All of Israel will be saved, and the Millennium is the mechanism for that part of God's Plan. God will call the Remnant Jews and the half-surviving rag-tag collection of people left after all of God's desolations have left man a rarity upon the earth - to Mount Zion, the newly cleft Mount of Olives by Jerusalem. One of the reasons for the 30 and 45 day periods between the one 'seven' and the Millennium is this trek, followed by an encampment upon Mt Zion which is mirrored by the Festival of Booths before these people can enter the safety of God's Sabbath Millennium. That is why it is so important to last the whole 1335 days for the surviving Jew.

Now you can go on attempting to sling more mud on this information calling it all kinds of names associated with Judaism. I am not a Jew. I do think you're a little bit anti-Semitic though... I know this information I am providing you is new to you; you have demonstrated almost a complete lack of understanding about trumpets in general, perhaps except for those trumpet blasts when you had to stop what you were doing, face the flag pole and salute twice a day. So if I challenge your ignorance and you respond with anger, supposed insults, and ad hominem attacks what I surmise is that you are not as mature as your age would warrant.

Dismissed.

veteran · Jul 5, 2012

teleiosis said:
Stand down sergeant. Mocking the United States Hair Farce is hardly grounds for judging the soundness of a person's theology or eschatology for that matter.

Such mocking words like that of a spoiled little child simply shows the baseness of one's inner character, that's all it does.

Now I have shown that the Last Trumpet of 1Co 15:51-52 takes place in the same context of 1Th 4:16-17 = the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ.

You contest that by simply saying it is not the same. That is not a valid argument; show why these two short passages are not in the same context as the time when Christ calls His Church home.

All you've shown is that the Tabernacle Studies junk is nothing but confusion away from the simplicity of God's Word. And because you keep trying to push that Tabernacle confusion, you're easily confused with what others say. See, you're trying to infer that I said the 1 Cor.15 "last trump" is not the same one as the 1 Thess.4:17 trump, which are YOUR WORDS, not mine. I never said any such thing as that. The trump of 1 Cor.15, 1 Thess.4, and 7th Trumpet of Rev.11 are ALL... the same trumpet and timing.

For I am not going to go on your word simply because you say so. I am a good Berean, and I check the Bible; I do not rely simply on the word of a man simply because he likes to throw his weight around.

The simplicity of God's Word throws His Weight where He so desires. I don't have to do it.

As far as Mt 24:31, the trumpet there is in the Genitive case for a Greek noun.

That means in ordinary terms, that possession is shown.
Since Christ sends Angels out with a "great" (the Greek uses megas) Trumpet, and that trumpet has possession attached to it: then we can legitimately infer it is Christ's Trumpet.

So what; still doesn't mean one can go arbitrarily assigning a load of trumpets to that event just because of trumpets blown at the feasts.

[quote]Again, there are three named Trumpets of God; they come in the order specified by the Festivals which is a Hebrew word which means "appointed times." If you have an appointment with God - I suggest you keep it unless you really, really want to be in trouble with God. And it is a terrible thing to fall into the Hands of an angry God! Appointed times are a very important part of God's Plan. Both Jesus and Paul are making reference to Rosh ha-Shanah when they talk about an "unknown day" and the "Last Trumpet."[/quote]

Where's those festivals mentioned along with the last trump by Paul, and the trumpet by Christ in Matt.24, and the 7th Trumpet of Rev.11 shown to John? Not there in Scripture are they? No, they are not. Shouldn't be trying to add to those Scriptures then, which is what you're trying to do in order to try... and change the timing of the endtime events how Christ gave them. I thank our Lord Jesus Christ greatly for giving 3 Woe periods with the last Three Trumpets of Revelation, since that prevents confused people like you from changing their meaning as written.

The First Trumpet assembled Israel to Mt Sinai to hear the Law. It is associated with the Festival of Weeks.

Click to expand...

In the NT, at the Festival of Weeks celebrating that moment in history; the Church was assembled with the washing of the Holy Spirit. This is the beginning of the Church Age: when faith alone is the only measure for entry.

Well those trumpets under the Old Covenant DON'T assemble Christ's Churches today, now do they? The required observance of those festivals were nailed to Christ's cross.

The Last Trumpet is part of the Rosh ha-Shanah worship service and it begins the Festival of Trumpets.

Click to expand...

In the end-times, the Last Trumpet is the "last call" assembling the Church out of here; like the wedding analogy - we come out of our house (earth) and meet Jesus in the air (the husband would be in the street) and return with Him to His Father's House (the barn of Heaven). This marks the end of the Church Age when all who would be selected by God enter His Sanctuary: the Temple in Heaven.

Boy, now that's a BIG help to understand the events on the last Three Trumpets of Revelation, now isn't it? No, it doesn't help one bit, because all it's doing is following the Phariseeism of the unbelieving Jews who were always weighing the people down with their doctrines.

The Great Trumpet is an assembly trumpet for Yom Kippur.

Click to expand...

In the end-times, it is when the Remnant Jews finally have the veil of Moses lifted and they see their Messiah King as being the same Servant Messiah they had previously rejected.

Funny how you can't see your mistake with that. When the unbelieving Jews see Christ coming in the clouds, WITH HIS CHURCH, that's when they will mourn for Him, and that means the "end-times" is OVER at that point. So if you're trying to leave a space in between the tribulation time and the time of Christ's coming in the clouds, just so the unbelieving Jews can be turned, then you've messed up terribly.

teleiosis · Jul 5, 2012

Nothing is a bar to education and final illumination more so than a closed, prejudiced mind eschewing investigation.

The Festivals, which are a part of Scripture unlike the sergeant's contention, themselves make a sequence of events:

1. The First Trumpet: the beginning of the Church some 2000 years ago.

2. The Last Trumpet: the gathering of the Church on the Day of the Lord.

3. The Days of Awe: Jesus' Day of the Lord Wrath and the Trumpet Judgments.

4. The Great Trumpet: the Day of Atonement - when Israel finally understands.

5. The Ingathering: the Festival of Booths.

Sometimes you can't teach an old dog new tricks...

veteran · Jul 8, 2012

teleiosis said:
Nothing is a bar to education and final illumination more so than a closed, prejudiced mind eschewing investigation.

The Festivals, which are a part of Scripture unlike the sergeant's contention, themselves make a sequence of events:

1. The First Trumpet: the beginning of the Church some 2000 years ago.
2. The Last Trumpet: the gathering of the Church on the Day of the Lord.
3. The Days of Awe: Jesus' Day of the Lord Wrath and the Trumpet Judgments.
4. The Great Trumpet: the Day of Atonement - when Israel finally understands.
5. The Ingathering: the Festival of Booths.

Sometimes you can't teach an old dog new tricks...

I don't need your SDA doctrine TRICKS, for that's all they are. Concerning the order of Revelation's events, you simply don't have a clue, but are eagerly following the same old methods that the blind Pharisees did, trying to understand the order of Rev. events in the exact order they were written down instead of truly understanding their Scriptural events. By the time you figure out the order of events of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials don't occur in the order John wrote them down, it'll be too late, and the trick will be on you. So go ahead, write another junk book and see if you can make you some blood money with their view.

sam · Jul 9, 2012

It is only an interpretation of some Bible scholars that seals, trumpets and vials are sequential order of end-time happenings.

How can one explain that The narrations of a woman and her son in chapter 12 (And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne) is something which is take place after the incidents John was brought to see (“.. the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;[sup] [/sup]And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.) on the opening of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal?

In fact it is easier to understand, on opening the sixth seal, John is brought to see what exactly is going to happen following the “ LITTLE SEASON” John heard as being told to the souls of the martyrs in the previous vision.

(Rev 1 :9-11 “[sup] [/sup]And when he had opened the fifth seal, …..it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”)

It may be even assumed that most of all the incidents which are to take place on the sounding of the first six trumpets happen during the “LITTLE SEASON”.

It is evident that the Book of Revelation is God’s revelation to the servants of God on things going to happen according to his plan.

But when we relate the first part of the verse, “Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto him” to Luke 10:22 we may find a new truth that God the father revealing ( unveiling ) Jesus Christ to His servants through this book.

In chapter 5 we find the apostle John is told by an elder that Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David has conquered to break the seven seals. But we read John writing to the saints in 7 churches that he SEEING the Slain Lamb coming to break the seals.

Here a powerful message is send to the saints in the 7 churches that any authority in heaven or in earth is vested upon the slain Lamb, our Lord himself. (Matt 28 :18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth ).

The saints in the 7 churches are said to be going through perils and tribulations because of their faith in word of God and for the sake of the name Lord Jesus Christ. The message through chapter 6 for them is again the manifestation of what seen in chapter 5, that Lord Himself is the supreme authority over any power or force of any principalities on earth (Rom 13:1 For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. , or on the angels in heaven and thus the saint needn’t have to be troubled on the trials and tribulations they are subjected to suffer. (John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me).

Now let us look to see what is revealed on breaking each of the seals. ( I don’t see anywhere, the order of seals are any indication of things going to happen in the end-times only)

John is brought to see the Lamb of God opening breaking the first seal.

John tells the saints that he is brought to see a man riding a white horse and he was given a crown. We read of him, “ he went forth conquering, and to conquer.”

Rom 13:1 tells “For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.”

The first power entrusted to mankind is to go forth to win and conquer. Go and read Genesis 1:28.

( And God blessed them,(man) and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.)

We have to keep in mind that God the father is unveiling the divinity of Jesus Christ as He is in the triune God.

Now look at what power he is giving away to mankind on breaking the second seal.

“..power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another..”

Till the time our Lord gave away that power how can someone kill his brother?

The fallen man cannot be seen on a white horse.

He mounted onto the red horse.

Let us see how the first application of that power effected.

Gen 4:8 reads like this: “And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

God makes it plain that Cain caused to take away peace for the first time on the face of the earth.

(Gen 4:9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?)

He was also given power to take away peace from earth. (We know only Lord will be restoring the peace back on earth on his own authority and power).

What do you suppose which power man used next to it in his quest to conquer?

Nothing but he seizing power to control the supply system and that too to ensure his luxury and comforts.

Only on God granting the power, anyone can implement power. Lord is telling his saints that, are you suffering from famine, or sanctions on supplies, do not be troubled on it, it happens only upon the authority your lord has granted.

John tells the saints that only on Lamb of God breaking a seal, the man with the pair of balance came on to the scene.

Lord has granted power to him on the black horse to impose sanctions, control granary and also him to enjoy the luxury for himself, wrested from those under his control.

Lord’s chosen servant Abraham was also subjected to that peril on earth.

measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Let us look to see the first instance mentioning ‘famine’ in the word of God.

Gen 12:10 “And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.”

We read the first mention of Pharaoh along that line. The man who tortured and slaved God’s dear servants.

The servants in the seven Churches are shown to look at the Lord in control of anything happening on the face of the earth.

The opening of the fourth seal declares how far the perils can go and how much freedom Lord granting to the authorities and rulers. Yes it was a real concern for the saints undergoing tribulation from the ruthless Roman government.

John says, he has got the answer from the Lord.

He tells it like this:

Rev 6:8 “And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”

Some are killed, some are put to hunger and some others are thrown to the beasts. Lord says, I have not given him the power to use his authority to destroy all the world, but only to the extent to do away with one fourth of it. This declaration enables any servant of God to proclaim a prophecy, that no government or any authority of man cannot destroy this world, but only to the extent of one forth of what exists on earth.

John is next brought to see something which give answer to the crucial query out of their troubled mind.

“How long it will go?”

This is John’s narration on what he was brought to see on breaking the fifth seal.

Rev 1 :9-11 “[sup] [/sup]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [sup] [/sup]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Take note, John says he saw the souls of ALL who have been martyred for the word of God; not those who were martyred during any particular time or era.

All those who were martyred for the word of God.

[sup] [/sup]We read of the first cry in gen 4 :10. (“And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.’)

John is brought to see that cry. It is not that all the martyrs together making a loud cry at the breaking of 5[sup]th[/sup] seal. John was brought to see a depiction of that cry of the souls of the martyrs heard in heavenly place. One more important aspect we can note there. Lamb of God, our Lord and Savior alone is in authority to judge on those making the torture and inflictions.

On the opening of the sixth seal, John is brought to see what God plans after the time point of the last one of the fellowservants of those in the church is killed as martyr and the prophecy concerning the martyrdom fulfilled.

The saints in the churches are very much bolstered to the assurance that the ‘LITTLE SEASON” as well as the season following it, is in complete authority of the Lord who is in control of the seals.

On continueing in this understanding, we can find the chapter 7 as an explanation to a possible question in the anxious hearts of the saints in the churches, if or how or who are under any protection in the time of the “LITTLE SEASON” and the ‘SEASON’ following it.

Nowhere in the scripture is said, the sealing of saints is an endtime phenomenon. Apostle John clearly tells he was brought to see an angel with the seal of God and he in the continuous process of sealing of saints. We have a clue when he will stop his sealing, but we are not told when he started his mission. If he is on mission to stamp a seal on the forehead of all the servants of God, all the servants of God, you and me and everyone from Adam are not an exempt. John was brought to see that blessed arrangement. Take note, all those from the tribes of the sons of Israel are in the category of those who were sealed. Their number is completed. No one more will be sealed for the reason he comes ‘from tribes of the son’s of Israel’. John audaciously tells he seeing a multitude in the array of servants of God and they have a very special subtitle, “those who have washed their clothes in the blood of the Lamb”. They are from every tribe, nation and creed.

Isn’t it a clear message of consolation to those who were under blasphemy from the so-called Jews (Saints from Smyrna and Philadelphia)?

teleiosis · Jul 9, 2012

Veteran:

veteran said:
I don't need your SDA doctrine TRICKS, for that's all they are. Concerning the order of Revelation's events, you simply don't have a clue, but are eagerly following the same old methods that the blind Pharisees did, trying to understand the order of Rev. events in the exact order they were written down instead of truly understanding their Scriptural events. So go ahead, write another junk book and see if you can make you some blood money with their view.

Wow Sergeant! I'm not sure if I'm talking to a Christian or an Obama supporter for partial birth abortion! Such venom! Such vitriol! How many disparate names can you come up with that have no foundation whatsoever? I'm trying to find the love here we're supposed to have for one another and sadly it's missing.

veteran said:
By the time you figure out the order of events of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials don't occur in the order John wrote them down, it'll be too late, and the trick will be on you.

So Jesus didn't know anything in revealing to John what will happen?

Jesus was playing a trick in presenting John with the vision of a Scroll which could not be opened because no one but Jesus could break the Seals?

Jesus was playing a trick in presenting to John a sequential breaking of those Seals which He numbered?

Jesus was playing a trick with presenting John with the Trumpets in numbered order?

Jesus was playing a trick with John in presenting to him that the Bowl Judgments were last?

It's all a trick... yeah, right. Paul said we would not be caught unaware; and Paul did not warn us to avoid Jesus coming on the clouds before the end of the one 'seven.'

What Jesus said is that YOU can't know that THAT DAY with He does come on the clouds indeed comes! By the process of elimination: the Day of the Lord, the last day for the Church on this earth CANNOT be the last day of the one 'seven.'

Besides the SHORTENED Great Tribulation, and the fact that NO ONE can know exactly when the Day of the Lord comes, we are told explicitly that we are not to endure God's Wrath - and since that Wrath will eliminate 99% of the world's population - and the language of Rev 3:10 is not the iron-clad protection you seek - and only the Remnant Jews are protected by Rev 12:6 and 16 - what really animates your animus is that your particular eschatology is skewered and your authority in teaching is upset and I'm sorry you feel that way that you have to lash out with blind insults hoping something will stick. SDA, Pharisee, blood money? - LOL.

Sam:

sam said:
It is only an interpretation of some Bible scholars that seals, trumpets and vials are sequential order of end-time happenings.

How can one explain that The narrations of a woman and her son in chapter 12

In fact it is easier to understand, on opening the sixth seal, John is brought to see what exactly is going to happen following the “ LITTLE SEASON” John heard as being told to the souls of the martyrs in the previous vision.?

It's only an interpretation because the Scroll cannot be opened because of the Seals. Jesus breaks the Seals before ANY of the Trumpets sound - and we never hear of the desolations which brings about the third Woe - but we do know in the parallel account of the one 'seven' in Chapters 13-16 that the Bowl Judgments (desolations) are last.

Revelation chapter 12 contains two twin parallel accounts roughly 2000 years each in length - both of them go back to the first Advent of Jesus, the first at His birth, and the second at His death - and both culiminate in the (second half of the) one 'seven.'

The little bit longer the Martyrs have to wait is the portion of the second half of the one 'seven' from whenever that Seal corresponds to the end-times IS opened, and there are no time markers to say for certain if the fifth Seal is opened up before the Great Tribulation, during it, or just as it is coming to an end.

Instead of going on a one little word and make all kinds of strenuous connections based on a coincidence of the King James Version, why not try to follow the verses which do establish that the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet.

veteran · Jul 9, 2012

sam said:
It is only an interpretation of some Bible scholars that seals, trumpets and vials are sequential order of end-time happenings.

How can one explain that The narrations of a woman and her son in chapter 12 (And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne) is something which is take place after the incidents John was brought to see (“.. the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;[sup] [/sup]And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.) on the opening of the 6[sup]th[/sup] seal?

In fact it is easier to understand, on opening the sixth seal, John is brought to see what exactly is going to happen following the “ LITTLE SEASON” John heard as being told to the souls of the martyrs in the previous vision.

(Rev 1 :9-11 “[sup] [/sup]And when he had opened the fifth seal, …..it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”)

It may be even assumed that most of all the incidents which are to take place on the sounding of the first six trumpets happen during the “LITTLE SEASON”.

It is evident that the Book of Revelation is God’s revelation to the servants of God on things going to happen according to his plan.

But when we relate the first part of the verse, “Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto him” to Luke 10:22 we may find a new truth that God the father revealing ( unveiling ) Jesus Christ to His servants through this book.

In chapter 5 we find the apostle John is told by an elder that Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David has conquered to break the seven seals. But we read John writing to the saints in 7 churches that he SEEING the Slain Lamb coming to break the seals.

Here a powerful message is send to the saints in the 7 churches that any authority in heaven or in earth is vested upon the slain Lamb, our Lord himself. (Matt 28 :18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth ).

The saints in the 7 churches are said to be going through perils and tribulations because of their faith in word of God and for the sake of the name Lord Jesus Christ. The message through chapter 6 for them is again the manifestation of what seen in chapter 5, that Lord Himself is the supreme authority over any power or force of any principalities on earth (Rom 13:1 For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. , or on the angels in heaven and thus the saint needn’t have to be troubled on the trials and tribulations they are subjected to suffer. (John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me).

Now let us look to see what is revealed on breaking each of the seals. ( I don’t see anywhere, the order of seals are any indication of things going to happen in the end-times only)

John is brought to see the Lamb of God opening breaking the first seal.

John tells the saints that he is brought to see a man riding a white horse and he was given a crown. We read of him, “ he went forth conquering, and to conquer.”

Rom 13:1 tells “For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.”

The first power entrusted to mankind is to go forth to win and conquer. Go and read Genesis 1:28.

( And God blessed them,(man) and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.)

We have to keep in mind that God the father is unveiling the divinity of Jesus Christ as He is in the triune God.

Now look at what power he is giving away to mankind on breaking the second seal.

“..power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another..”

Till the time our Lord gave away that power how can someone kill his brother?

The fallen man cannot be seen on a white horse.

He mounted onto the red horse.

Let us see how the first application of that power effected.

Gen 4:8 reads like this: “And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

God makes it plain that Cain caused to take away peace for the first time on the face of the earth.

(Gen 4:9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?)

He was also given power to take away peace from earth. (We know only Lord will be restoring the peace back on earth on his own authority and power).

What do you suppose which power man used next to it in his quest to conquer?

Nothing but he seizing power to control the supply system and that too to ensure his luxury and comforts.

Only on God granting the power, anyone can implement power. Lord is telling his saints that, are you suffering from famine, or sanctions on supplies, do not be troubled on it, it happens only upon the authority your lord has granted.

John tells the saints that only on Lamb of God breaking a seal, the man with the pair of balance came on to the scene.

Lord has granted power to him on the black horse to impose sanctions, control granary and also him to enjoy the luxury for himself, wrested from those under his control.

Lord’s chosen servant Abraham was also subjected to that peril on earth.

measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Let us look to see the first instance mentioning ‘famine’ in the word of God.

Gen 12:10 “And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.”

We read the first mention of Pharaoh along that line. The man who tortured and slaved God’s dear servants.

The servants in the seven Churches are shown to look at the Lord in control of anything happening on the face of the earth.

The opening of the fourth seal declares how far the perils can go and how much freedom Lord granting to the authorities and rulers. Yes it was a real concern for the saints undergoing tribulation from the ruthless Roman government.

John says, he has got the answer from the Lord.

He tells it like this:

Rev 6:8 “And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”

Some are killed, some are put to hunger and some others are thrown to the beasts. Lord says, I have not given him the power to use his authority to destroy all the world, but only to the extent to do away with one fourth of it. This declaration enables any servant of God to proclaim a prophecy, that no government or any authority of man cannot destroy this world, but only to the extent of one forth of what exists on earth.

John is next brought to see something which give answer to the crucial query out of their troubled mind.

“How long it will go?”

This is John’s narration on what he was brought to see on breaking the fifth seal.

Rev 1 :9-11 “[sup] [/sup]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [sup] [/sup]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Take note, John says he saw the souls of ALL who have been martyred for the word of God; not those who were martyred during any particular time or era.

All those who were martyred for the word of God.

We read of the first cry in gen 4 :10. (“And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.’)

John is brought to see that cry. It is not that all the martyrs together making a loud cry at the breaking of 5[sup]th[/sup] seal. John was brought to see a depiction of that cry of the souls of the martyrs heard in heavenly place. One more important aspect we can note there. Lamb of God, our Lord and Savior alone is in authority to judge on those making the torture and inflictions.

On the opening of the sixth seal, John is brought to see what God plans after the time point of the last one of the fellowservants of those in the church is killed as martyr and the prophecy concerning the martyrdom fulfilled.

The saints in the churches are very much bolstered to the assurance that the ‘LITTLE SEASON” as well as the season following it, is in complete authority of the Lord who is in control of the seals.

On continueing in this understanding, we can find the chapter 7 as an explanation to a possible question in the anxious hearts of the saints in the churches, if or how or who are under any protection in the time of the “LITTLE SEASON” and the ‘SEASON’ following it.

Nowhere in the scripture is said, the sealing of saints is an endtime phenomenon. Apostle John clearly tells he was brought to see an angel with the seal of God and he in the continuous process of sealing of saints. We have a clue when he will stop his sealing, but we are not told when he started his mission. If he is on mission to stamp a seal on the forehead of all the servants of God, all the servants of God, you and me and everyone from Adam are not an exempt. John was brought to see that blessed arrangement. Take note, all those from the tribes of the sons of Israel are in the category of those who were sealed. Their number is completed. No one more will be sealed for the reason he comes ‘from tribes of the son’s of Israel’. John audaciously tells he seeing a multitude in the array of servants of God and they have a very special subtitle, “those who have washed their clothes in the blood of the Lamb”. They are from every tribe, nation and creed.

Isn’t it a clear message of consolation to those who were under blasphemy from the so-called Jews (Saints from Smyrna and Philadelphia)?

Putting our Lord's Book of Revelation in a strict past historical perspective is just as bad as what Teleiosis is trying to do with his "linear narrative" idea of future events.

Fact of the matter is that Revelation does cover 'some' past historical events, and also events presently occuring in Apostle John's days, and still other events yet future to John and still future to us today. No huge mystery in that, since all the Books of God's Old Testament prophets follow that same kind of timeline jumping back and forth. There's still a lot of prophecy in the OT prophets that's yet to come to pass today, and even some that's meant only... for AFTER Christ's future second coming. So if one is not following this simple system of interpretation required by God's Word for Revelation, then one is doing nothing more than following a group of traditions that some men setup instead.

revturmoil · Jul 9, 2012

It really is quite simple to debunk the idea that the last trump isn't the seventh trumpet. Tele also made the comment that
"last means last." Yeah right!

So let me repeat again. The word last in this verse...

1 Corinthians 15:52 　In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Is the same word used in the following verses.

Revelation 2:8 　¶And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the
last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 22:13 　I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Of all the words in the Greek text this is the one that definitely means...LAST!

http://www.eliyah.co...on&isindex=last

We aren't talking about any of the Jewish festivals or trumpets, We're talking about a trumpet that is sounded by an angel at a rapture and at the day of the Lord. That day has for 1900 + years been accepted to occur at the end of tribulation. Rather than accept simple truths, Tele, pre-trib, mid-trib, and pre-wrath people had to distort the Word of God to fit their theology and change the timing of the day of the Lord and the marriage supper of the Lamb (as well as other things) otherwise they are faced with major contradictions. So it's easier for them to do this than admit they're wrong and change their minds.

Another Tele blunder is that he thinks the blood red moon which occurs at the beginning of tribulation, (which he calls the day of the Lord) is the same as the darkened moon which occurs at the end of tribulatuion which cannot be seen at all. These are not the same event!

At the beginning of tribulation the moon will appear red. Ever notice that sometimes when the moon first rises at night it appears a bit orange or red? When it first rises over the horizon, the angle we are viewing it through the many particles in the 'spheres' causes it to appear red.
At the beginning of tribulation there will be even more particles emited into the atmosphere and the moon will appear red even when it is right above us.
This is different than what is said about a moon that, "shall not give her light", and the stars shall fall from heaven...
At the end of tribulation there will be so much stuff emited into the atmosphere that the moon will not be seen at all.
So Tele.
All I can say is that your fabricated theory that the last trump isn't the seventh trumpet is quite easily DEBUNKED!

teleiosis · Jul 9, 2012

To the person who hasn't a clue what Hab 1:9 is all about - and who egregiously adds to God's Word quite in error - and who has yet to even go through the OP which makes the links in Scripture which show the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath - I say this: man up.

kaoticprofit said:
It really is quite simple to debunk the idea that the last trump isn't the seventh trumpet.

Well, you haven't debunked it because I foiled your foil. All you are doing now is engaging in yet another fallacy in argument: ad nauseum.

Argumentum ad nauseam (argument to the point of disgust; i.e., by repetition): This is the fallacy of trying to prove something by saying it again and again. But no matter how many times you repeat something, it will not become any more or less true than it was in the first place. Of course, it is not a fallacy to state the truth again and again; what is fallacious is to expect the repetition alone to substitute for real arguments.

kaoticprofit said:
We aren't talking about any of the Jewish festivals or trumpets,

You don't want to talk about the Festivals! But the greater question - is Paul?

You see, Paul was a trained Pharisee (Saul) and he knew Jewish ritual law - AND - the Last Trumpet was still being blown every year in the Temple because when Paul wrote this - there still was a Temple in Jerusalem!

So since Revelation was written after Paul's death, and since Paul never mentions any of the various desolations of Wrath God will unleash onto the wicked - it is more than a flight of fancy to suppose that Paul is referencing something he didn't know about, his audience didn't know about - and one that is at odds at one of God's Trumpets: the Last Trumpet.

So when you spout off with all your "last means last" quotes, the real question you have to ask - which you haven't done any more than you've looked at the Scriptural links in the OP which prove what I contend - was Paul talking about the last Trumpet, or was he talking about THE Last Trumpet - because there is a difference.

kaoticprofit said:
...the day of the Lord. That day has for 1900 + years been accepted to occur at the end of tribulation.

This is just plain factually incorrect - as you define tribluation as being the whole of the one 'seven.'

Now the early Church taught Historic Pre-Millennialism - which is essentially Pre-Wrath, but it did not teach classical 19th Century Post-Tribulation as you espouse it. Furthermore, starting with the acceptance of Christianity by Rome which led to the rise of the Roman Catholic Church, for much of the Church Age, the basic eschatology being taught was Amillennialism. You can still find this eschatology being taught in Catholic and Lutheran Churches today.

kaoticprofit said:
Another Tele blunder is that he thinks the blood red moon which occurs at the beginning of tribulation, (which he calls the day of the Lord) is the same as the darkened moon which occurs at the end of tribulatuion which cannot be seen at all. These are not the same event!

I don't know what you're talking about here because like Hab 1:9, you have things completely mixed up.

The Bible says the sun/moon/star event comes immediately after the Great Tribulation.
As far as a third of the moon's light being struck, that's part of God's Desolations which follow the Rapture; read my sequence of events thread.

So you have not debunked my "theory." It's not a theory at all - it's a proof. And the evidence is IN the Bible.
And you haven't tackled that anymore than you can explain which Paul is talking about in a cogent anser: THE Last Trumpet, or the LAST trumpet.

sam · Jul 10, 2012

veteran said:
Putting our Lord's Book of Revelation in a strict past historical perspective is just as bad as what Teleiosis is trying to do with his "linear narrative" idea of future events.

Fact of the matter is that Revelation does cover 'some' past historical events, and also events presently occuring in Apostle John's days, and still other events yet future to John and still future to us today. No huge mystery in that, since all the Books of God's Old Testament prophets follow that same kind of timeline jumping back and forth. There's still a lot of prophecy in the OT prophets that's yet to come to pass today, and even some that's meant only... for AFTER Christ's future second coming. So if one is not following this simple system of interpretation required by God's Word for Revelation, then one is doing nothing more than following a group of traditions that some men setup instead.

I was not trying at all to put the book of Revelation in any past his torical perspective.
You yourself have asserted that "Fact of the matter is that Revelation does cover 'some' past historical events".
When we look to the seals of the scroll as something which 'seals' as crusts of shells and 'seals' symbolic of supreme authority over the levels of man's quest in conquering over the world, it starts from the time man was created to rule over the face of the word.
On breaking each of the seal one by one, John is brought to see how things taking shape from the beginning of the world to the end of the world and how much our Lord is the Lord over the history and to the eternity to come. I have mentioned in my previous post that this book is an unveiling of Jesus Christ . The first man started his galloping only on the breaking of the first seal and that by none but the Lamb John and all the saints in the church as their Lord and Savior jesus Christ. In genesis we see Gos is bestowing man(mankind) the authority to start his quest to conquer. In the Book of Revelation Jesus Christ is unveiled as God in triune who created heavens and earth and everying upon it.
I was trying to refute the argument that events relative to seals and then trumpets are to be considered in sequential order and therefore the argument that 'last trumpet' is something before the seven trumpets cannot be a right inference.
I am sure, Rev 10:7 " But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."
Rev 11: 15, " But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." very well justifies the seventh trumpet is the LAST TRUMPET.
Please take note "the voice of the seventh angel' and read it along with ".....with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God." said in 1 Thes 4:16.
The verse 1Thes 4:16 confirms only, the seventh angel is an archangel and the trumpet belongs to God. Just like we taking the armor of God (Eph 6:13), the seven angels are with the trumpets of God.

teleiosis · Jul 10, 2012

sam said:
Rev 11: 15 very well justifies the seventh trumpet is the LAST TRUMPET.
Please take note "the voice of the seventh angel' and read it along with ".....with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God." said in 1 Thes 4:16.
The verse 1Thes 4:16 confirms only, the seventh angel is an archangel and the trumpet belongs to God. Just like we taking the armor of God (Eph 6:13), the seven angels are with the trumpets of God.

You go directly from Rev 11:15 to 1Th 4:16-17 on the coincidence of trumpets and angels. There are many kinds of trumpets and Angels are thoroughly involved throughout the end-times.

However, 1Th 4:16-17 describes the same thing as Mt 24:30-31 - and that comes on the heels of the sun/moon/star event in verse 29. That event is also portrayed to happen with the opening of the sixth Seal in Rev 6:12-14, and after the 144,000 are sealed - like is also portrayed in Rev 14 - comes the Great Multitude from the Harvest of the Elect. And that is before any of the Trumpets of God's Wrath are blown.

The 1Th 4:16-17 is an assembly Trumpet blown by Jesus; Trumpet; Rev 11:15 is an announcement Trumpet blown by an Angel.

sam · Jul 10, 2012

teleiosis :

Seems you telling me as a Christian I needn't read, or hear or obey anything Lord telling from Chapter 7 onwards from the Book of Revelation..
But Lord tells it differently in the opening chapter of the Book of Revelation.

teleiosis · Jul 10, 2012

It seems to me that you need to work on your ability to read for comprehension; I said no such thing.

revturmoil · Jul 10, 2012

Let me say this Tele.

1 Cor. 15:52 isn't talking about a trumpet sounding at a Jewish festival. Paul was no longer a Pharisee. And it doesn't matter if there was a temple in Jerusalem.
We are talking about a rapture at the last trump i.e. a trump of God.

And if you complicate and fabricate things any more you may as well write a book on the subject. It's kind of like pretribulationism. It takes volumes of books to cover and counter all the fabrications and contradictions.
There are seven trumpet soundings by the angels of God. The last trump is said to occur at a rapture and at the seventh trumpet a rapture occurs at the sound of a trumpet!
How difficult is that to understand!

What do you do to counter the delima that a blood red moon occurs at the beginning of tribulation which you call it the "Day of the Lord." Even though the words "Day of the Lord" are excluded from Rev. 6. And even though a darkened moon, not a blood red one, is assiciated with the Day of the Lord.

teleiosis · Jul 11, 2012

The section on 1Co 15:51-52 IS talking about the Rapture. In this third discourse about eschatology, which Paul was on fire for at first, and after his inability to convey his message to the Thessalonians said he wasn't going to give such a weighty subject to the Corinthians, and in talking about the resurrection of the dead and the change or exchange the living have in receiving their new bodies - Paul states this occurs at the Last Trumpet.

Now we have zero information that Paul knew about the aspects of God's Wrath. They had not been revealed at the time and the most Paul will say about a man who did go the third Heaven (John) is that he wasn't allowed to speak about his experience (at that point).

Now Paul was a trained Pharisee. Saying he was no longer a Pharisee is true, but that does not wipe out a lifetime of knowledge. It DOES matter that there was a Temple in Jerusalem and that the Festivals were actively practiced there and as far as we know - because the Messianic Jews who are the nexus of the Church did not abandon their Jewishness nor their manner of worship through that structure! So in the context of Paul's time, and his training - we would have to interpret his meaning within that framework!

This then brings into focus another aspect of the end-times, a pattern as it were, much like the first century Jewish wedding rituals - the Festivals. As these are "appointed times" I think it behooves us to pay attention to the order of them, their meaning, and their fulflillment by Christ Jesus because GOD SET THEM UP.

Now I did not fabricate anything.

I took the Rapture passage of 1Co 15:51-52 and linked it to 1Th 4:16-17.
I linked 1Th 4:16-17 to Mt 24:30-31.
I said that before Mt 24:30-31 that the sun/moon/star event comes immediately after the shortened Great Tribulation of Mt 24:29.
I linked Mt 24:29 to the same type of sun/moon/star event in Rev 6:12-14.
I also noted that the Great Multitude of Rev 7:9-17 comes on the heels of that celestial sign for the Day of the Lord - and I noted that no less an authority than an Elder says that the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation - which further links the Great Multitude to the Elect of the Olivet Discourse.

YOU HAVE NOT ADDRESSED THE CENTRAL ARGUMENT OF THE OP.

You do keep pointing to the seventh Trumpet as being blown by an Angel.
You have noted that the Last Trumpet is blown by God in the Rapture passages.
HOWEVER, you have ignored the difference who is doing the blowing, whose Trumpet it is, and the purpose of each!

How difficult is that to understand? Right back at ya.

All this goes back to your eschatology, which happens to be the majority opinion on this board, although it is not a majority opinion overall. You are not arguing against this Biblical proof on the basis of the Bible. You are attacking this around the edges because you cannot go against the links I have pointed out in succession which proves my point. You are trying to cut this whole idea down because it goes against your eschatology.

kaoticprofit said:
What do you do to counter the delima that a blood red moon occurs at the beginning of tribulation which you call it the "Day of the Lord."

First of all, for you to say that the "blood red moon occurs at the beginning of tribulation" makes no sense to me because you are not referencing the Bible.

The sun/moon/star event of Mt 24:29 happens immediately after the Great Tribulation.

Now define how you are using "tribulation" because I've seen your work on Hab 1:9 and I find your scholarly credentials lacking discernment and understanding.

Also: define "blood red moon" and from where in the Bible you are getting it this specific reference.

Second of all, the Day of the Lord can be identified by the appearance of the sun/moon/star event which precedes that Day. That is in Scripture. Again, your understanding and Biblical knowledge may be lacking such information, but as far as you have proved yourself - I can't be sure you even have grasped this Biblical fact.

So I do not call it the Day of the Lord without reason; before Jesus tramples out the OT Wrath of God on the Day of the Lord, He rescues us. The first Trumpet of God's Wrath, blown by an Angel comes after the Last Trumpet (named, not numbered) blown by God in the person of Jesus.

veteran · Jul 11, 2012

sam said:
I was not trying at all to put the book of Revelation in any past his torical perspective.
You yourself have asserted that "Fact of the matter is that Revelation does cover 'some' past historical events".
When we look to the seals of the scroll as something which 'seals' as crusts of shells and 'seals' symbolic of supreme authority over the levels of man's quest in conquering over the world, it starts from the time man was created to rule over the face of the word.
On breaking each of the seal one by one, John is brought to see how things taking shape from the beginning of the world to the end of the world and how much our Lord is the Lord over the history and to the eternity to come. I have mentioned in my previous post that this book is an unveiling of Jesus Christ . The first man started his galloping only on the breaking of the first seal and that by none but the Lamb John and all the saints in the church as their Lord and Savior jesus Christ. In genesis we see Gos is bestowing man(mankind) the authority to start his quest to conquer. In the Book of Revelation Jesus Christ is unveiled as God in triune who created heavens and earth and everying upon it.
I was trying to refute the argument that events relative to seals and then trumpets are to be considered in sequential order and therefore the argument that 'last trumpet' is something before the seven trumpets cannot be a right inference.
I am sure, Rev 10:7 " But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."
Rev 11: 15, " But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." very well justifies the seventh trumpet is the LAST TRUMPET.
Please take note "the voice of the seventh angel' and read it along with ".....with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God." said in 1 Thes 4:16.
The verse 1Thes 4:16 confirms only, the seventh angel is an archangel and the trumpet belongs to God. Just like we taking the armor of God (Eph 6:13), the seven angels are with the trumpets of God

The simple matter is that the Seals of Rev.6 are about the 7 Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse for the END of this world, not its beginning. He even attached a specific generation to them for the end.

There's more groups of later theology (1700's forward) that get away from that specific than just those who want to treat Revelation as purely historical. Some tend to treat God's Word in the mystical sense too, disregarding its literal nature of prophecy just because those prophecies also contain a symbolic and metaphorical type delivery.

There does exist many parallels in Revelation to events in the beginning with Genesis, but they are parallels of opposites, i.e., like man's fall from God and His Eden vs. man's reconcilliation through Christ Jesus; Satan's tempting vs. Satan's destruction, etc. But the Seals, Trumpets and Vials, they are specific to events occuring in the last days.

teleiosis said:
Now we have zero information that Paul knew about the aspects of God's Wrath. They had not been revealed at the time and the most Paul will say about a man who did go the third Heaven (John) is that he wasn't allowed to speak about his experience (at that point).

That's false. Paul was well learned in the OT prophets which outline quite a bit about the subject of God's Wrath on the last day of this world. Those you're listening to have wrongly taught you that idea, or you just came up with it on your own out of the blue. Most likely you haven't understood 1 Thess.5 where Paul links the time of wrath with Christ coming as a thief on the day of the Lord. And he gave that right after he covered the gathering Message in 1 Thess.4.

Now Paul was a trained Pharisee. Saying he was no longer a Pharisee is true, but that does not wipe out a lifetime of knowledge. It DOES matter that there was a Temple in Jerusalem and that the Festivals were actively practiced there and as far as we know - because the Messianic Jews who are the nexus of the Church did not abandon their Jewishness nor their manner of worship through that structure! So in the context of Paul's time, and his training - we would have to interpret his meaning within that framework!

Paul LEFT the religion of the Jews, i.e., Pharisee Judaism. Understanding God's Word then is not equated with what the Pharisees were following. That's why Christ Jesus rebuked the doctrines of the Sadduccees and Pharisees. They were following the philosophical writings of their sages in their Babylonian Talmud, which are writings only philosophically based on The Old Testament. Judaism from the Pharisee doctrines of men is not the same thing as what the OT Patriarchs and prophets and Apostles followed. Paul and the rest of the Apostles in Scripture like Acts and Galatians point that difference out many times too.

Another false myth is that since the Apostles were Israelites they somehow kept to the doctrines of men from the Pharisee's religion. You evidently forget how Paul rebuked Peter in Galatians for separating from Gentiles at the table when Peter's Jewish brethren from Jerusalem came for a visit. Not anywhere in Paul's Epistles does he preach the doctrines of the Pharisees, i.e., "the Jews' religion" (Phariseeism) for Christian believers to follow. It was the "false brethren" like in Gal.2 and Acts of Pharisee converts to Christ that were trying to lord it over the Gentile brethren with Pharisee doctrines, and the Apostles would not allow it.

This then brings into focus another aspect of the end-times, a pattern as it were, much like the first century Jewish wedding rituals - the Festivals. As these are "appointed times" I think it behooves us to pay attention to the order of them, their meaning, and their fulflillment by Christ Jesus because GOD SET THEM UP.

The only thing Christ borrowed from the wedding ritual concerning Christians was the guests at the wedding put for believers on Him. So how some today like to use the Jewish wedding ritual to point to His Church as the Bride doesn't fit how Jesus taught the matter either, since Rev.21 reveals that the New Jerusalem is the Bride and Christ Himself The Bridegroom. So trying to adhere to the wedding festivals ritual per Jewish custom in applying to His Church as the Bride means to automatically depart from what Christ Jesus was teaching. Those using the Jewish wedding ritual in some other way are departing from how He used it.

revturmoil · Jul 11, 2012

Tele,

You said,

I linked Mt 24:29 to the same type of sun/moon/star event in Rev 6:12-14.

There's are several issues that you have to confront. And this one alone debunks your theory.

Jesus said in Mt. 24:29 that the darkened moon would occur after the tribulation.
Matthew 24:29 　Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

In Revelation 6:12 the moon isn't darkened. It's turned to blood.
Revelation 6:12 　And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

But you believe that the blood red moon of Rev 6:12 and the darkened moon of Mt. 24:29 are the same event...

Even though you are wrong that they are the same event. The blood red moon is said to occur before the day of the Lord. BUT
Jesus said that the darkened moon occurs after the tribulation!

Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great
earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Can you see your contradiction? Jesus said the darkened moon occurs after the tribulation but...
You say that the blood red moon in Rev. 6:12 is the same event! Can you see the contradiction here? Or are you blinded by your own blunders?

What you're doing to counter this contradiction is the same thing the pre-tribulationist do...CHANGE THE TIMING OF THE DAY OF THE LORD!
There a several other issues with your debunked theory. You adamently refuse to accept the truth and don't care about the scriptural evidence.

sam · Jul 14, 2012

teleiosis said:
I am not mixing up the seventh Seal with the seventh Trumpet... the seventh Seal finally opens the Scroll to reveal the desolations which have been decreed; (Dan 9:26) these desolations are trumpeted by the seven Angels. The Last Trumpet precedes both the seventh Seals and the seventh Trumpet; the Seals and Trumpets do not occur concurrently or in parallel.

The Last Trumpet is sounded on the Day of the Lord. I said: The Day of the Lord happens before ANY of the Trumpet Judgments go forth. That inclues the seventh.

I find it reasonable 'the seals' to consider seperately, not mixing up with 'trumpets and vials,
The 'trumpets' and 'vials' are end time missions carried on by angels.
The 'seals' always denote authority. ""Breaking of seals' , Lord himself is performing it, not any angels.
Again, it is a reasonable thinking to view "the seventh Seal finally opens the Scroll to reveal the desolations".
We find the Book of Revelation' is addressed to the SERVANTS OF GOD. We find in chapter 7, Apostle John is brought to see an angel with the seal of God on his mission of stamping the seal on SERVANTS OF GOD.
Let me ask those claiming Last trumpet is blown at the breaking of the sixth seal:
How can we presume, the mission of the angel stamping the seal of God something which is to happen after the events we read following the breaking of the sixth seal?
Can we suppose, SERVANTS OF GOD remaining in mortal bodies after Christ appearing on the clouds? (Rev 9:4)

teleiosis · Jul 15, 2012

As to Paul not having knowledge of God's Wrath as described in the book of Revelations:

veteran said:
That's false. Paul was well learned in the OT prophets which outline quite a bit about the subject of God's Wrath on the last day of this world.

Oh, you want to talk about the Bible instead of just your opinion on things?

Tell me sergeant: where in the OT do any of the prophets spell out the seven Trumpets of God's Wrath? Where is there ANY indication of the desolation God will bring being wrought in thirds with the first four Trumpets? Quote chapter and verse which describes any of the horrors of the Woes!

OT prophecy includes many descriptions of the "trampling" Jesus will do on the Day of the Lord - none of those include any of the Trumpets EXCEPT for the first Trumpets' aspect of blood and fire! THAT is why I include the first Trumpet as part of the Day of the Lord events in my Sequence-of-Events analysis of end-time prophecy which concludes the Rapture is Pre-Wrath and Post-"Great Tribulation."

Now as a realistic side of how the first Trumpet will affect the world: I think it could persist for over a year. "Mountains will smoke" - Ps 104:23 - and God will pay back tribulation for tribulation - 2Th 1:6 - so to punish the wicked who deprived us of food, shelter and water; imagine the calamity that would ensue in America when the Yellowstone caldera blows! That will be like Mt. St. Helens times 10,000 and it will wipe out the Midwest food crop and short-circuit the entire United States electrical grid. We can't buy or sell? They won't be able to either. With other like situations happening around the world, the earth would be reeling for over a year before the second Trumpet need sound!

veteran said:
Most likely you haven't understood 1 Thess.5 where Paul links the time of wrath with Christ coming as a thief on the day of the Lord. And he gave that right after he covered the gathering Message in 1 Thess.4.

I think you ought to stick to your own understanding rather than playing god and think you can know the mind of another.

Paul most certainly links Rapture to Wrath IN THAT ORDER. The anti-Christ's destruction will happen, however, nothing in the Greek demands it happen immediately with Jesus' paraousia on the clouds to save us. The Aorist tense in 2Th 2:8 simply means it is a foregone conclusion: it will happen. Notice too, in Revelation, the anti-Christ is NOT "destroyed" when he is captured at Armageddon! He lives. In fact in Isaiah 14:9-12 may very well describe the "journey" the anti-Christ has to take before he is ultimately judged before God (Rev 11:18 - judging the "dead" and Rev 19:20). The anti-Christ is not killed when Jesus comes. His destruction is sure; but it is not immediate. Likewise in 1Th 5:3, the destruction WILL come. - It is a sure thing.THAT is what is indicated in Paul's writing!

veteran said:
Paul LEFT the religion of the Jews, i.e., Pharisee Judaism.

That is NOT TRUE and demonstrable IN the Bible. Paul uses the smallest aspects of Judaism well into his ministry with the Purification process. The proof is Acts 21:24-26.

Now why did we officers inspect our NCO's to make sure they wore their uniform pressed and clean, and why were we so obsessive that you shined your shoes? It's because if you follow the small things, when we ordered you to do something which was dangerous in time of war, you'd obey.

The Jerusalem Messianic Jews, later called Christians, routinely worshipped and taught on the Temple grounds. We have no indication that they abandoned their rites of worship nor their outward obedience to God's Laws. Note the division which came when Paul first taught that the Gentiles need not be circumsized in the flesh - but he still insisted on other ritual laws like not eating food offered to idols.

So, while Paul left unbelieving Saul behind at his conversion to faith in Christ; there is no indication that he left all that was in Scripture behind in his daily practice. Now Paul nowhere did as the Pharisees did, or as he did as part of that ruling authority, nor do we ever find that Paul instructed the Church on the piles of man-made rules which are the Babylonian Talmud. That is a strawman argument. The important part for evangelizing a Jew, is that they do not have to leave the Law and the Prophets behind in order to accept Christ. When Christ said "obey," it was to the Law. It's just that the Law does not give "Life," only faith in God through Christ can do that.

veteran said:
The only thing Christ borrowed from the wedding ritual concerning Christians was the guests at the wedding put for believers on Him.

There is much you don't know then. This is a wonderful sideline to the whole process of Redemption which allows us to see a pattern for us. You should study it sometime and not be so close-minded that you are not even open to new ideas from a fellow believer.

Likewise, you don't like the Festivals, not because they are not important to our understanding of the end-times; but because it goes against your doctrine of eschatology - which much against your protest, is entirely man-made.

__________________________________________________________________________

Second reply:

kaoticprofit said:
There's are several issues that you have to confront. And this one alone debunks your theory.
In Revelation 6:12 the moon isn't darkened. It's turned to blood.
But you believe that the blood red moon of Rev 6:12 and the darkened moon of Mt. 24:29 are the same event...

I really think you have little true understanding of descriptive verse in the Bible from centuries ago.

Only a fool would say based on the poetic descriptions that the moon is literally turned to blood.

Here are the sun/moon/star event descriptions from the Bible:

[sup]ISA 13:9[/sup] See, the day of the LORD is coming
--a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger--
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.

[sup]ISA 13:10[/sup] The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.
__________________________________

[sup]EZE 32:7[/sup] When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens
and darken their stars;
I will cover the sun with a cloud,
and the moon will not give its light.
__________________________________

[sup]JOEL 2:10[/sup] Before them the earth shakes,
the sky trembles,
the sun and moon are darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.
__________________________________

[sup]JOEL 2:30[/sup] I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.

[sup] JOEL 2:31[/sup] The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
__________________________________

[sup]JOEL 3:14[/sup] Multitudes, multitudes
in the valley of decision!
For the day of the LORD is near
in the valley of decision.

[sup]JOEL 3:15[/sup] The sun and moon will be darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.
__________________________________

[sup]MT 24:29[/sup] "Immediately after the distress of those days
" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
__________________________________

[sup]MK 13:24[/sup] "But in those days, following that distress,
" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;

[sup]MK 13:25[/sup] the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
__________________________________

[sup]LK 21:25[/sup] "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. [sup]26[/sup] Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
__________________________________

[sup]REV 6:12[/sup] I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, [sup]13[/sup] and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. [sup]14[/sup] The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

So we have many different descriptions of the sun/moon/star event: no two are exactly alike. You are demanding that they all be exactly alike, yet that is not the way the Bible presents the Day of the Lord's sun/moon/star event. Likewise, the anti-Christ has many names, and only once does the Bible call him that and John does so not directly!

Are we hamstrung into thinking there are many different end-time rulers who will take over the world? NO!

Likewise, if the moon is darkened - it is the same as not giving "its" light. And what kind of light is that? Silvery. So if the moon is made LIKE blood (nowhere does the Bible insist in a "blood moon" or that it be made up in blood or even colored by blood!) or has the appearance of blood, it does not give its silvery light but is darkened and gives off a reddish glow which does not illuminate the night like the moon normally does.

kaoticprofit said:
Even though you are wrong that they are the same event. The blood red moon is said to occur

kaoticprofit said:
before the day of the Lord. BUT
Jesus said that the darkened moon occurs after the tribulation!

I think you're defining "Tribulation" incorrectly. After all, you can't even quote Hab 1:9 right, nor render a worthwhile interpretation of it.

The order is set in Mt 24:15-31. This is the second, detailed, parallel account to the broad overview of the end-times begun in the Olivet Discourse of Mt 24:4-14.

The midpoint abomination
The Great Tribulation
The sun/moon/star event
The arrival of Jesus on the clouds
The gathering of the Elect.

Now the sun/moon/star event happens AFTER the shortened (indeed, it is what shortens the it) Great Tribulation and BEFORE the Day of the Lord.
That's what is in Scripture and there is nothing amiss with it - unless you want to say that the whole one 'seven' is the Tribulation and in that regard you'd have a lot of company and like them, you'd be Scripturally incorrect.

veteran · Jul 15, 2012

teleiosis said:
As to Paul not having knowledge of God's Wrath as described in the book of Revelations:

Oh, you want to talk about the Bible instead of just your opinion on things?

Tell me sergeant: where in the OT do any of the prophets spell out the seven Trumpets of God's Wrath? Where is there ANY indication of the desolation God will bring being wrought in thirds with the first four Trumpets? Quote chapter and verse which describes any of the horrors of the Woes!

OT prophecy includes many descriptions of the "trampling" Jesus will do on the Day of the Lord - none of those include any of the Trumpets EXCEPT for the first Trumpets' aspect of blood and fire! THAT is why I include the first Trumpet as part of the Day of the Lord events in my Sequence-of-Events analysis of end-time prophecy which concludes the Rapture is Pre-Wrath and Post-"Great Tribulation."

Since you well know the OT prophets did not include any seven trumpets blowing about the "day of the Lord" events, then why would you want to add the Feast ritual ideas into it at all?

Many of the descriptions God gave through His OT prophets about the last day of this world with the "day of the Lord" events directly parallel Christ's Revelation events He revealed through His servant John. And that should be enough without having to add a bunch of ritual feast ideas to understand Christ's Revelation. Besides, the 7 trumpets of Revelation sound the 'order' of battle, which is easy to know since Jesus attached 3 separate Woe periods with the last 3 trumpets.

Now as a realistic side of how the first Trumpet will affect the world: I think it could persist for over a year. "Mountains will smoke" - Ps 104:23 - and God will pay back tribulation for tribulation - 2Th 1:6 - so to punish the wicked who deprived us of food, shelter and water; imagine the calamity that would ensue in America when the Yellowstone caldera blows! That will be like Mt. St. Helens times 10,000 and it will wipe out the Midwest food crop and short-circuit the entire United States electrical grid. We can't buy or sell? They won't be able to either. With other like situations happening around the world, the earth would be reeling for over a year before the second Trumpet need sound!

Sounds like a Hal Lindsay novel to me; scare tactics to try and get people to believe in the false Pre-trib Rapture theory. Jesus already defined the trib time being about a time of peace, as Apostle Paul did also, and as given through Daniel also a time of prosperity. The nations throwing a big party and giving each other gifts once God's "two witnesses" are killed per Rev.11 also reveals what kind of time it will be.

I think you ought to stick to your own understanding rather than playing god and think you can know the mind of another.

If you HAD... understood about the timing of Christ's Wrath per Paul in 1 Thess.5, then you would not be so deluded. Likewise about Paul's "Peace and safety" compared to your 1st trumpet ideas.

Paul most certainly links Rapture to Wrath IN THAT ORDER. The anti-Christ's destruction will happen, however, nothing in the Greek demands it happen immediately with Jesus' paraousia on the clouds to save us. The Aorist tense in 2Th 2:8 simply means it is a foregone conclusion: it will happen. Notice too, in Revelation, the anti-Christ is NOT "destroyed" when he is captured at Armageddon! He lives. In fact in Isaiah 14:9-12 may very well describe the "journey" the anti-Christ has to take before he is ultimately judged before God (Rev 11:18 - judging the "dead" and Rev 19:20). The anti-Christ is not killed when Jesus comes. His destruction is sure; but it is not immediate. Likewise in 1Th 5:3, the destruction WILL come. - It is a sure thing.THAT is what is indicated in Paul's writing!

Simple to know that the Antichrist is not destroyed at Christ's coming. Don't know why you're trying to insert a change of subject into the discussion about the "last trump" of Paul, like you're trying to save face or something.

That is NOT TRUE and demonstrable IN the Bible. Paul uses the smallest aspects of Judaism well into his ministry with the Purification process. The proof is Acts 21:24-26.

God's law is NOT the religion of the Pharisees. How could you not understand that difference? The system of corruption the scribes and Pharisees and Sadduccees were following, and pushed... upon the people, was their OWN TRADITIONS THEY MADE UP. Or didn't you understand why Jesus said this? - -

Mark 7:5-9
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, Why walk not Thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And He said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
(KJV)

That vow of purification Paul agreed to because of His Jewish brethren, not for the sake of the Gentiles. And then what happened immediately after Paul had completed the 7 days of purification? The unbelieving Jews siezed him and started beating on him; why? Because of His teaching Christ crucified to the Gentiles, and not the traditions of the Pharisees!

How is it that you don't understand that the Jew's religion is about still trying to be justified by following the law, and not by Faith on Jesus Christ???

The Jerusalem Messianic Jews, later called Christians, routinely worshipped and taught on the Temple grounds. We have no indication that they abandoned their rites of worship nor their outward obedience to God's Laws. Note the division which came when Paul first taught that the Gentiles need not be circumsized in the flesh - but he still insisted on other ritual laws like not eating food offered to idols.

My Bible says nothing about Messianic Jews being those who were first called 'Christians'. My Bible says it was the disciples at Antioch that were first called Christians (Acts 11:26). How is it you think to STEAL that title of Christian away from Gentiles that were also disciples at Antioch by falsely inferring it was only about Jews? Obvously, you think much more of youself and Jews than Gentiles.

There is much you don't know then. This is a wonderful sideline to the whole process of Redemption which allows us to see a pattern for us. You should study it sometime and not be so close-minded that you are not even open to new ideas from a fellow believer.

I know 'how' Jesus referred to the idea of a wedding per His parables, but He did not call believers His bride within it anywhere. He instead used the idea of the wedding involving servants and 'guests', and not as a bride. So a study of the Israelite wedding festival is not at all needed to grasp what He was saying. Those like you who think it's required show the corruptions of the Pharisee traditions in wanting to add an uneeded part to what Christ taught. (And those who got their rocks off with all the military rules and regs to serve in the rear echelons seldom were seen up front where the battles were. They hid behind desks and in rear support areas, spit shinning their shoes and pressing their uniforms).

Likewise, you don't like the Festivals, not because they are not important to our understanding of the end-times; but because it goes against your doctrine of eschatology - which much against your protest, is entirely man-made.

When Christ comes and requires me to follow the Festivals that He commissions, then I will do it under His service, not under YOUR man-made assumed authority!

The Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet

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