When Raptured, are we there for eternity?

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romans7

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Would like to add that regarding the two resurrections referred to in scripture, the first one can be seen as being when a person is "born again". They have risen with Christ. If any one be in Christ they are a new creation. The second one is the literal one when Christ returns. And is confirmation of the faith position the person has held to in this life.

As always there are a multitude of theological positions that can be taken. I have suggested one which might be worth more than just a casual examination. One has to be careful about assuming literality of some things, especially with a book like revelation.
 

veteran

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Would like to add that regarding the two resurrections referred to in scripture, the first one can be seen as being when a person is "born again". They have risen with Christ. If any one be in Christ they are a new creation. The second one is the literal one when Christ returns. And is confirmation of the faith position the person has held to in this life.

Sorry, but that's not Biblically correct either. A second resurrection is only inferred in Rev.20. And it is not the "first resurrection" which is the glorifying and redemption of Christ's faithful saints who reign with Him to occur at His return. At Christ's return, there will be a general resurrection of both the just and the unjust (as per John 5:28-29 and Isaiah 25 and Matt.25). Also at Christ's return, everyone, and I do mean everyone that's still alive on earth, both just and the unjust, will be 'changed' to the "spiritual body" which Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. The difference in that time between Christ's saints which rule with Him and the unjust is that the unjust will still be in a spiritual state of damnatiion, still liable to perish at the second death. Those are the "dead" of Rev.20:5, which is about still being spiritually dead in one's soul condition. Some of those will be saved at the end of the thousand years and that's what the inferred second resurrection is about, as it won't occur until the end of the thousand years.


As always there are a multitude of theological positions that can be taken. I have suggested one which might be worth more than just a casual examination. One has to be careful about assuming literality of some things, especially with a book like revelation.

Who cares about "theological positions" anyway? Staying in God's Word as written with His help by The Holy Spirit is what matters. Men's doctrines derived by some institutiion represents the old bottles our Lord Jesus warned us about. And one thing is for certain about those old bottle traditions of men's doctrines; they will continue to miss interpretation between what is literal and what is spiritual per God's Holy Writ. This is something I keep warning brethren about, just as our Lord Jesus and His Apostles also continually gave this warning of who we should listen to. A Christian believer CAN get understanding directly... from our Heavenly Father and His Son when studying His Word of Truth. We simply need to learn how to discipline ourselves in It first, asking His help. Afterall, God wrote His Word, man didn't.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

Sorry, but that's not Biblically correct either. A second resurrection is only inferred in Rev.20. And it is not the "first resurrection" which is the glorifying and redemption of Christ's faithful saints who reign with Him to occur at His return. At Christ's return, there will be a general resurrection of both the just and the unjust (as per John 5:28-29 and Isaiah 25 and Matt.25). Also at Christ's return, everyone, and I do mean everyone that's still alive on earth, both just and the unjust, will be 'changed' to the "spiritual body" which Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. The difference in that time between Christ's saints which rule with Him and the unjust is that the unjust will still be in a spiritual state of damnatiion, still liable to perish at the second death. Those are the "dead" of Rev.20:5, which is about still being spiritually dead in one's soul condition. Some of those will be saved at the end of the thousand years and that's what the inferred second resurrection is about, as it won't occur until the end of the thousand years.

Sorry, but that's not biblically correct, either! Yochahan's record in John 5:28-29 is only a generalization of the two resurrections because Yeshua` will be the source of BOTH resurrections! However, if you will carefully look at the verses, it does NOT say that the two resurrections occur at the same time! Instead, Yeshua` was careful to distinguish between the two resurrections, the resurrection of life, and the resurrection of damnation (condemnation). They are NOT at the same time:

John 5:25-30
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour (time) is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
KJV


Isaiah 25 is about the END of the Millennium and the BEGINNING of the New Earth:

Isaiah 25:8-12
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
10 For in this mountain shall the hand of the Lord rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.
11 And he shall spread forth his hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim: and he shall bring down their pride together with the spoils of their hands.
12 And the fortress of the high fort of thy walls shall he bring down, lay low, and bring to the ground, even to the dust.
KJV


Yesha`yahu is careful to point out that "the LORD God will wipe away tears from off all faces." According to Revelation 21:4, that doesn't happen until the New Earth! Furthermore, he mentioned "the rebuke of His people He shall take away from off all the earth," but Yechezk'el (Ezekiel), when talking about the Millennium in chapters 40-48, said that the Levites would bear their shame for their iniquity:

Ezekiel 44:10-13
10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.
11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord God, and they shall bear their iniquity.
13 And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.
KJV


Therefore, timing says it all. There IS a difference between the Millennium and the Eternal State, because while the Messiah is reigning as haMelekh Y'hudiym (the King of the Jews) during the first 1000 years of His reign, He is still subduing His enemies. It is not until the END of the Millennium that the last enemy, Death, is defeated (I Cor. 15:20-28; Revelation 21:7-15)

Additionally, Matthew 25, part of the Olivet Discourse, is when Yeshua` was talking about His return:

Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
KJV


Notice, however, that, although they are said to "go away into everlasting punishment," it does NOT say that they go right then! In fact, in this passage of Scripture, they are not THROWN into the fire by the "angels," yet! Although their fate is sealed as a nation, they do not yet stand before Him at the Great White Throne.

Yeshua` is referring to a future WAR TRIBUNAL! He is not judging them individually; He is judging them nation by nation, based on how they AS A NATION treated His people, both the Isra'eliym (Isra'elites) and believing Goyim (Gentiles). I personally believe that the "sheep" nations immediately become vassal states to the Messiah's Kingdom, while He ignores the "goat" nations, making them fend for their own. The vassal states will benefit from the wisdom of the Messiah, His financial prowess, and His Justice, while the rest, as a group of people, will only receive His wrath and His disdain. However, I believe that members of these "goat" nations may individually come to Yeshua` and denounce their affiliation with their native country, and thereby receive His blessing through a sponsor:

Zechariah 8:20-23
20 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also.
22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.
23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
KJV


Who cares about "theological positions" anyway? Staying in God's Word as written with His help by The Holy Spirit is what matters. Men's doctrines derived by some institutiion represents the old bottles our Lord Jesus warned us about. And one thing is for certain about those old bottle traditions of men's doctrines; they will continue to miss interpretation between what is literal and what is spiritual per God's Holy Writ. This is something I keep warning brethren about, just as our Lord Jesus and His Apostles also continually gave this warning of who we should listen to. A Christian believer CAN get understanding directly... from our Heavenly Father and His Son when studying His Word of Truth. We simply need to learn how to discipline ourselves in It first, asking His help. Afterall, God wrote His Word, man didn't.

(I agree with you here. I think you're right on the money.)
 

romans7

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Yesa'Yahu?? Sorry guys but are you sure you're on the right planet? How and why do you need to come up with and expound such complexity? It just amazes me the carry on in these forums. I am sure that "the simplicity that is in Christ" is not being represented by this kind of nonsense. And the attitude?! If you took your own advice and prayed earnestly about the material you are "handling" you would realise how your minds are simply reflecting the complication of thinking which is brought about by the flesh.
 

veteran

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Shalom, veteran.

Sorry, but that's not biblically correct, either! Yochahan's record in John 5:28-29 is only a generalization of the two resurrections because Yeshua` will be the source of BOTH resurrections! However, if you will carefully look at the verses, it does NOT say that the two resurrections occur at the same time! Instead, Yeshua` was careful to distinguish between the two resurrections, the resurrection of life, and the resurrection of damnation (condemnation). They are NOT at the same time:

You simply haven't yet learned to distinguish between the "resurrection of damnation" and a second resurrection unto life that will occur at the END of Christ's thousand years reign.

In Rev.20 the ordinal number "first" is given (as per the Greek). And by that being given we are to naturally assume there is to be a second to follow. However, just what TYPE of resurrection is the second one? The majority are led to believe it is the "resurrection of damnation", but it is not. The second inferred resurrection which occurs at the end of Christ's reign is of the SAME ORDER TYPE as the "first". And what TYPE of resurrection is the "first resurrection"? One unto Life through Christ Jesus.

The reason is because both the OT prophets and NT Scripture both reveal the wicked 'unjust' alive and conscious going through Christ's thousand years reign, bowing the knee to Him as Lord.

In Rev.3:9 that is the specific event of those of the "synagogue of Satan" coming to worship at the feet of Christ's elect of the Church of Philadephia. At the end of Zech.14 it is how those of the nations that are left which came up against Israel on the last day of this world, are still remaining after Christ's return, and are required to go up to Jerusalem to worship The LORD and keep the feast of tabernacles. The Rev.22:14-15 Scripture about the wicked that are outside... the gates of the holy city where Christ's saints are that have right to the tree of life, is even yet another... Scripture example of the wicked not literally being dead somewhere in the ground waiting to be resurrected at the end of the Milennium. There are more examples of the conscious existence of the wicked DURING Christ's reign in the Book of Isaiah.

Even when one follows the idea of the existing "nations" in Rev.20 that exist PRIOR to the end of the thousand years, that also reveals the existence of the "resurrection of damnation" during... Christ's thousand years reign.

Everybody is going to go through Christ's thousand years reign on earth, both the just and the unjust. The difference is simple per Scripture. Those of the "resurrection of damnation" which are raised AT Christ's coming per John 5:28-29 will STILL be subject to the "second death" casting into the "lake of fire". Yet that "second death" doesn't occur until after the thousand years has ended. So where will the 'unjust' be during Christ's Milennium reign? On earth, in resurrected bodies, but in a place of separation away from Christ Jesus and His saints. They are considered as "dead" unless they repent and believe on Jesus and become joined with those of the "first resurrection". That later joining of some of them who are saved is what the second inferred resurrection is about; it is not one of the 'damnation' type, but unto Life like the first one.

Yesa'Yahu?? Sorry guys but are you sure you're on the right planet? How and why do you need to come up with and expound such complexity? It just amazes me the carry on in these forums. I am sure that "the simplicity that is in Christ" is not being represented by this kind of nonsense. And the attitude?! If you took your own advice and prayed earnestly about the material you are "handling" you would realise how your minds are simply reflecting the complication of thinking which is brought about by the flesh.

The only way you could think that is by not having studied all of God's Holy Writ for yourself.

God declared the conditions for how Christ's future thousand years reign will occur. And those conditions are not just written in Revelation 20 only. But only in Rev.20 appears to be the limits of Scripture understanding many here have on the matter.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, romans7.

Yesa'Yahu?? Sorry guys but are you sure you're on the right planet? How and why do you need to come up with and expound such complexity? It just amazes me the carry on in these forums. I am sure that "the simplicity that is in Christ" is not being represented by this kind of nonsense. And the attitude?! If you took your own advice and prayed earnestly about the material you are "handling" you would realise how your minds are simply reflecting the complication of thinking which is brought about by the flesh.

"Yesha`yahu" is the Hebrew name that is frequently BOTCHED when one says, "Isaiah!" How many Christians know that the "-iah" at the end of his name is the first two letters "YaH" of the Tetragrammaton or God's Name (YHWH)?! The name MEANS something! It means "Salvation of YAHUWH!"

And, as far as "the simplicity that is in Christ" is concerned, are you even aware that the word "Christ" coming from the Greek word "Christos," spelled "chi-rho-iota-sigma-tau-omicron-stigma," is a TRANSLATION of the Hebrew word "Mashiach," spelled "mem-shin-yud-chet," which gives rise to our English word "Messiah?" Do you ever say, "the simplicity that is in the Messiah?"

I've opted to live by Paul's words:

1 Corinthians 14:15
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
KJV


All the feelings and "spirituality" in the world do not make a hill-of-beans difference if one doesn't UNDERSTAND what he or she is saying, praying, or singing!