Christ's Christianity and Paul's Christianity are Not the Same

tallycello · May 16, 2012

When you read the Bible , it is obvious that the letters of Paul are not the same message as the message that Christ sends us, that is, if we assume that we are to emulate Christ.

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, 'Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'? [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]When Jesus heard this, he said, 'Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do.' (Matthew 9:11-12)[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Paul the Apostle says[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. (Cor. 5:9-11)[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Are we to assume that these brothers who are immoral are to be outcasts in the mind of Paul but for Jesus it is exactly these same people who NEED Christ's love. And doesn't Paul's Christianity assume a Judgemental and holier-than-thou point of view that "I, who am not [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler are outcasting YOU, brother , and I shall not eat with you." ??? [/background]

Angelina · May 16, 2012

Jesus was referring to the lost sheep of Israel. Paul, being sent to the Gentiles, was referring to Gentiles who call themselves believers.

Shalom!!!

tallycello · May 16, 2012

I don't buy that - are you really to believe that if the tax collectors and sinners that Jesus ate with were Gentiles , He would not eat with them? He would consider these brothers who lived in sin, outside of the Christian faith? He would not be a "doctor" to the Gentiles who were living in sin?

"let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" (John 8:7)

Angelina · May 16, 2012

Matthew 15 NKJV

A Gentile Shows Her Faith

[sup]21 [/sup]Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. [sup]22 [/sup]And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”
[sup]23 [/sup]But He answered her not a word.

And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
[sup]24 [/sup]But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
[sup]25[/sup]Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
[sup]26 [/sup]But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
[sup]27 [/sup]And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
[sup]28 [/sup]Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Blessings!!!

tallycello · May 16, 2012

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” (John10:16)

1. Are we to try to emulate Christ?
2. Does Jesus work in the hearts and mind of Gentile brothers and sisters who are in sin?

If we are not to emulate Christ then my whole post is meaningless
If Jesus does not work in the hearts and minds of Gentile brothers who are in sin then the purpose of forgiveness of sin is somewhat of a meaningless idea

As for the woman who was healed, it is safe to say that Jesus did not come to only to save those of the house of Israel because as you have quoted, that he heals a woman outside of the house of Israel.

GB

Angelina · May 16, 2012

Please note that the law was still enforce while Jesus was alive. The covenants did not change until he was crucified. Paul is speaking to the Gentile believers after Christ had died and rose again.

As for the woman who was healed, it is safe to say that Jesus did not come to only to save those of the house of Israel because as you have quoted, that he heals a woman outside of the house of Israel.

It was her faith that caused him to bless her thus healing her child. The Lost sheep of Israel were those I believe, who lived by the law but did not receive the promises given to Abraham by faith. They did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah and many still do not today...

Blessings!!!

tallycello · May 16, 2012

Daughter or the woman, still he heals a Gentile unless I am mistaken. And he grants a Gentile woman's request. There are still many people who do not accept Jesus as the Messiah , that is true as well. I suppose, I am still concerned about the first point and that is with Paul urging the Corinthians not to eat with brothers who are living in sin, is that a good lesson for those of us who wish to emulate Christ? It teaches judgement and a lesson of being holier-than-thou and it hurts Christ's message. There is no doubt that Paul had many good things to say , however, there are Christians who will take Paul's words to be equal to Jesus' teaching and I believe this is a mistake.

Angelina · May 16, 2012

As I understand it, the Corinthian Church began to adopt the ways of the pagan worshipers that surrounded them. Which included temple prostitution and this, I believe, is what Paul was referring to... JMHO

Blessings!!!

tallycello · May 16, 2012

Right, so this activity may be going on and the response is to cut off the troublemakers away from the other believers. I would assert that that is the same attitude behind distancing oneself from tax collectors and sinners that Jesus was judged for. The entire Christian Church is full of saints and sinners right now as we speak. There are people who are living in sin , but the only saving grace they have is to have Jesus in their lives. A church may turn a person away, just as Paul turned away these people in the example, but I would argue that Christ is here for sinners, as a light to shine on their darkened lives.

Again the initial quote of Jesus
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"Jesus answered them, 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick."'Luke 5:32[/background]

GB

Angelina · May 16, 2012

...and we come back to the beginning of this thread

The key to understanding what is mean't here is based on context.

Bless you!

tallycello · May 16, 2012

Let's agree to disagree then

Because, for one, I disagree with the context argument- clearly or I wouldn't have spent time defending my view concerning context...

Take Care,
GB

Strat · May 16, 2012

Cherry pick your bible all you want...heh,everybody's doing it.....we will see in the end whether or not it is all God's word or it isn't and of course we know how easy it is to accept what you like and reject what you don't

tallycello · May 16, 2012

Well, the Christian Church does look to the Old Testament leading to the coming of Christ, but the New Testament is equally , if not more important for how to live a Christian life...it just interests me that Christ , from what was written in the Gospels, is sometimes not in accord with what Paul wrote in his letters and vice versa. That's all I was trying to point out.

JLB · May 16, 2012

Angelina said:
Please note that the law was still enforce while Jesus was alive. The covenants did not change until he was crucified. Paul is speaking to the Gentile believers after Christ had died and rose again.

It was her faith that caused him to bless her thus healing her child. The Lost sheep of Israel were those I believe, who lived by the law but did not receive the promises given to Abraham by faith. They did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah and many still do not today...

Blessings!!!

Hi Angelina,

Could you tell me what you mean by this.

Please note that the law was still enforce while Jesus was alive.The covenants did not change until he was crucified.

Thanks and bless you, JLB

Rach1370 · May 16, 2012

JLB said:
Hi Angelina,

Could you tell me what you mean by this.

Please note that the law was still enforce while Jesus was alive.The covenants did not change until he was crucified.

Thanks and bless you, JLB

I think she may have meant that for Jesus to fulfil and complete the law and therefore abolish it, He had to live it perfectly first...which He did! The law is there to show us: 1, how Holy God is, and 2, how sinful we are and incapable of living up to a holy God. Jesus came, lived the law perfectly and took our place on the cross. When He had done that, they law was fulfilled.
Just my opinion, she may have meant something else!!

mark s · May 16, 2012

tallycello said:
Well, the Christian Church does look to the Old Testament leading to the coming of Christ, but the New Testament is equally , if not more important for how to live a Christian life...it just interests me that Christ , from what was written in the Gospels, is sometimes not in accord with what Paul wrote in his letters and vice versa. That's all I was trying to point out.

That Jesus ate with sinners and tax collectors, and that Paul says don't eat with those who say they are Christians and are openly immoral people isn't a conflict. Two different situations.

And btw . . . we don't do everything Jesus did, that would be foolishness.

Love in Christ,
Mark

tallycello · May 17, 2012

That's why in my original post I said "if we assume that we are to emulate Christ"- you don't have to do anything Jesus did if that is your choice. I was coming from the perspective that Christianity and Christians strive to be "Christlike" ...Saints have died in the name of Christ, in fact Paul was one of them.

mark s · May 17, 2012

Being Christ-like, and doing everything He did, are two different things. Our nature as a new creature is made like Christ, but we don't forgive sins, for instance.

But my point is that your "conflict" seems a bit artificial, since we're talking apples and oranges. Paul didn't say that we were to separate from those who self-identified as unbelievers, so there is no conflict with Jesus eating with those who were considered sinners.

Love in Christ,
Mark

veteran · May 17, 2012

Paul certainly didn't teach any different Gospel than Christ did, if that's what all this is driving at. Per Acts 9:15, Christ gave Paul the commission to preach The Gospel to 1-Gentiles, 2-kings, and 3-the children of Israel.

Men's doctrines of Dispensationalism have tried over and over to separate Christ's Church apart from God's promises first given to Israel. That's never going to happen.

tallycello · May 17, 2012

No doubt Paul was a great man and a man of God, but throughout the Bible, there have been different prophets who have given a message of God to the people (often they did not want to hear it). Paul was concerned with building the Church and by building the Church he was clearly concerned that in Corinth, if he did not separate the brothers who were sinners with those who were not, the Church might falter. I am not saying that Paul was not sent to spread the Church, preach the Gospels and do God's work, what I am saying is that there is a clear difference in how Jesus acted and what Jesus said, from how Paul acted and what Paul said- in some instances. One example is the one I began with, Jesus claiming that sinners are in need of a "doctor" i.e. Christ's love and guidance, and Paul who wants to separate the brothers in sin from those he considers worthy of the right to practice Christianity.

mark s said:
Being Christ-like, and doing everything He did, are two different things. Our nature as a new creature is made like Christ, but we don't forgive sins, for instance.

But my point is that your "conflict" seems a bit artificial, since we're talking apples and oranges. Paul didn't say that we were to separate from those who self-identified as unbelievers, so there is no conflict with Jesus eating with those who were considered sinners.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. (Cor. 5:9-11)[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Is not the message of Christ that sinners, even sinners who are proclaimed Christian, are those most in need of Christ's love?[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Again Jesus says "[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]'Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do." [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)] ([/background]Matthew 9:11-12[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]) So we snub and alienate the brothers who are judged as sinners to preserve the Church that Paul is building? Or do we act as doctors and offer Christ's love to those in sin....[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]As for being Christlike, or doing what Christ did, I don't think it is beyond the capabilities of us Christians to eat with sinners and welcome sinners in our Churches be they swindlers, drunkards, sexually immoral, greedy etc...the whole point of Christ is to welcome sinners and change their hearts.[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]GB[/background]

Christ's Christianity and Paul's Christianity are Not the Same

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