Christ's Christianity and Paul's Christianity are Not the Same

Sabitarian said:

QRSNER,
I the first place no one goes to Heaven except the one who came from there. I have no idea of where those who were take are, but it is clear they did not go to Heaven, otherwise Christ would have not said that no one has gone to Heaven except the one who came from there. There is no eternal punishment, they will be purged of their sins and just cease to exist. Our Father desires for us to know and understand Him and His ways, therefore He spends time explaining things to us so we might understand why he does the things that He does. Why is there a White Throne Judgement in the first place, God knows what is to become of all. It is for the specific purpose of allowing for us to understand why He made the judgement in the first place. It is like when He decided to allow Gentiles into the fold, it was foretold many years before or where circumcision was to be of the heart instead of the flesh, remember of the flesh only pertains to men, while of the heart pertains to women as well. All of His decisions are up for reveue by us and we are to understand why they are as they are. God does nothing in secret as scripture attests to.
we are to lovingly correct Christians who are repentant or who are willing to repent, however those who willingly break the Commandments and teach others to do the same will not see salvation. The Sign of God is the main one that will cause most Christions to face the wrath of God in the near tribulation and when it starts the time for you to change will end and you will have to face Him with all of your sins in place. In case you do not know what the Sign is it tells who He is, what His authoriety is, and why He has the right to exercise His authority and it is in the Moral Law.
brightmorningstar,
Your quote that you are willing to use in the future is wrong and if you read the epistles of James and John you will realize that your works are to be judged, because even the blood of Christ can not cover willful sin. It is counted against you in the judgement to come and can cause you to lose salvation. Remember Grace is afforded to those who are worthy as they have come as close to following the laws of God as they are able to do, however if you are doing willful sin out of ignorance of the law God might give you the benefit of the doubt, but if the truth is given you and you fight against the truth, you are fighting against God. Many on this site are doing just that and I would not want to be there when Christ tells them in Matthew 7 "I never knew you". The message in revelation is going forth right now and you are to heed it"come out of her my people"as the scarlet whore will be judged and if you are doing her will at the start of the tribulation you will face a similar fate to that she will face. I can identify all of these if you wish, just let me know if you need it.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

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That's a salvation based on 'works' and not by Faith on Jesus Christ. Although having good works in Christ Jesus is important for all believers on Him, it is NOT... HOW we are saved. I agree that to sin willingly will cause us to fall away from Christ IF we continue in that. But if we have a change of heart and repent, then Jesus cleanses us of it as promised (1 John 1).

7angels,
I agree with you. Its about the hardening of the heart, coming before the Lord with a humble and contrite heart means one is not sinning wilfully but repenting for falling short

veteran,
I have studied the Book for years and not found where purposeful sin is ever forgiven. Why would we be judged for your sins if all sins are covered? David was very sorroful for his sin with Bathsheba, but it cost him dearly even here, thus why would you believe there is a difference after you die? This is one of the problems with the Jews in Christ's life time, they were donig sacrifices for sin after they willingly did something they knew was wrong. Christians are doing just the same now and I have experienced it personally.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

Sabitarian said:

veteran,
I have studied the Book for years and not found where purposeful sin is ever forgiven. Why would we be judged for your sins if all sins are covered? David was very sorroful for his sin with Bathsheba, but it cost him dearly even here, thus why would you believe there is a difference after you die? This is one of the problems with the Jews in Christ's life time, they were donig sacrifices for sin after they willingly did something they knew was wrong. Christians are doing just the same now and I have experienced it personally.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

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Matt 12:31
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
(KJV)

That's the ONLY sin God's Word declares shall not... be forgiven men.

Now then, making a little trip back to Bible history with the Old Covenant and its requirements, various purifications, ritual sacrifice, and offerrings, they were given by God to Israel back then for what purpose? To cover their sins in that time. Not every judgment or statute against sin even back then was unto death (i.e., death penalty).

So it's very obvious, even in the Old Covenant times, that our Heavenly Father well knew the shortcomings of the flesh and how even His chosen would fall into sin at times, and He gave those methods of atonement to cover sins of the people. That's what the Levitical priesthood was instituted for, to act as mediaries for the people's sins.

But now, under the New Covenant, Christ Jesus died once for sin, and we all now must approach The Father through Jesus Christ as our Mediator to The Father, Jesus now being our High Priest with the Levitical priesthood no longer in effect. It was impossible back under the Old Covenant for the people to be perfect in keeping all of God's laws, just as it is still impossible today. Anyone who claims they are perfect in keeping all of God's laws today is lying, for 'sin' is defined even in the New Testament Books as the 'trangression of the law' (1 John 3:4).

Under Christ Jesus we are now given The Holy Spirit to help us understand God's laws in teaching us His Ways, but our flesh is at war with our spirit so that no man can be perfect in keeping the law. If you think you are perfect in that, then you're only lying to yourself and are in danger of thinking to put yourself up on a throne like God's throne. Only through repentance to Christ can we be 'counted' as perfect, that only being possible by His Blood shed upon the cross for us. That doesn't mean a license to sin. It means when we catch our flesh causing us to do things that are not expedient which conflict with our spirit, it means He forgives us if we repent of it and keeping fighting against sin. That is the only process of Salvation we can have today while in the flesh until Christ comes to redeem our body.

Saul/Paul was always a contentious character, before and after his conversion.

As a zealous Pharisee his brutal persecutions of the Church are well documented. Then, there were the epic quarrels with Barnabas and John Mark (Acts. 15:36-40). Paul admitted he was not above using guile (2Cor 12:16, Rom 3:7), duplicitous in the circumcision of Timothy in Jerusalem (Acts 16:1-3) after preaching against circumcision in the previous chapter, for and against the Law 1Cor. 9:21, paying no attention to prophetic warnings (Acts 21:4) and though his letters were weighty his physical persona was sometimes quite caustic (2Cor. 10:10, 2Cor. 11:6). And for whatever reason, the Lord saw fit to humble Paul's arrogance with a persistent 'thorn in the flesh', though Paul never explains exactly what it was (2Cor. 12:7).

The apostle Peter in (2Pet.3:15-16) was probably, being rather circumspect with his analysis in deference to his fellow apostle's oft-ambiguous writings. IMO, it's not quite fair to put ALL the blame on the shoulders of the spiritual dullness of Paul's readers. As in the First Century, the apostle Paul's epistles are still controversial today.

James Forthwright,
Good points although a bit dramatic imo, nonetheless one cant separate him from the rest of the NT writers like liberals want to do, his witness is of course first hand nonetheless.

brightmorningstar said:

James Forthwright,
Good points although a bit dramatic imo, nonetheless one cant separate him from the rest of the NT writers like liberals want to do, his witness is of course first hand nonetheless.

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Absolutely! I have much respect for the Apostle Paul (faults and all). I greatly admire his independent spirit and moxie. For none of the other NT writers dared to tell women to shut up in church and be submissive to their husbands 1Cor. 14:34-35 1Tim. 2:11-15 Paul's dissertations on the gifts of the Spirit (1Cor. 12) and Charity (1Cor.13) are also priceless.

veteran,
Where did sacrifices begin? What was the first sacrifice and in what Book did it happen? Did Christ die for all sin or just accidental or unknowing sin? I am back in the old and purposeful sin is not covered and I am sure that in the new it is the same as both parts must align for it to be true. I just wish that my memory was not so old as I might remember where it is in scripture without having to read it all over again.
I still ask the question what is the sign of God? And where is it listed in the Book?
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

Could I perhaps add something to the 'purposeful sin' debate....just for thought?
Remember when Jesus warns Peter that before the cock crows, he would deny Jesus three times? Peter denied Jesus three times that night....and while he may not have recalled Jesus' prediction while he was doing it, he certainly knew he was lying his butt off...he most certainly knew Jesus. So we could argue that this was really was wilful sin, and that Jesus forgave him for this. So is wilful sin forgiveable? Peter was crushed by his sin and repentant. I think that's the big issue here....Jesus died for ALL our sins...but we must be repentant....and being truly repentant means putting that sin to death...turning from it, not just shrugging it aside as a 'whoops'.
Just food for thought.

Sabitarian said:

veteran,
Where did sacrifices begin? What was the first sacrifice and in what Book did it happen? Did Christ die for all sin or just accidental or unknowing sin? I am back in the old and purposeful sin is not covered and I am sure that in the new it is the same as both parts must align for it to be true. I just wish that my memory was not so old as I might remember where it is in scripture without having to read it all over again.
I still ask the question what is the sign of God? And where is it listed in the Book?
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

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This confession of unfamiliarity with the new testament comes as no surprise. If they both are to align as you insist, then they are both equally important. However, I will say that the new testament rather explains and reveals things that are not explained and revealed in the old. Certain things were kept hidden.

As for this subject of willful sin, the term is used in Heb.10. If one will read through this chapter, one will see that the sacrifice is made for all sin, and in one portion where it describes the promise of the new covenant, God is quoted as saying.." their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more" That is an old testament quote. So, it does indeed line up with the new.

However, moving on to sinning willfully, mentioned in vs.26, I would challenge you or anyone to define that term. Here is a hint. Read the context. There are all sorts of opinions as to what that means. But none of us wrote that letter or used that term in it. The author is the one we should consult as to what he meant.

Jesus criticised the pharisees by their focus on the outer man, the flesh, but inside they were whitewashed tombs, as He put it. If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. This is the secret that was revealed in the new, starting with Jesus in John 3. God's solution to the sin problem is to change us. To put it in scientific terms, He is re creating the species. It is not about just getting us to behave as good as we can. It is bout putting His very divine nature into us.This is a process that was started in the new birth, but will not be completed until the resurrection.
In the meantime, we have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7)..." that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us". This indicates that there is a battle between flesh and spirit in us. We have both the nature of God and the nature of man in us.

What we are called to do is to bear fruit. We are to express the new and put off the old. However, it really helps to understand what we are and what is going on with us. In the old covenant, they were just sinners being commanded to behave righteously. This is unnatural. It is like trying to train a cat to bark. The point was to reveal to us that inner surgery is required. This is not somethng we can do. It is God's work, not ours.

I garuntee that bad behavior does not in itself prove that a person does not have the new nature within. There are plenty of things that come against us in this life. People come to God abused, disfunctional, addicted, unknowledgable, weak, brainwashed, and afflicted by many things. This treasure is indeed in earthen vessels. But even the misfits can bear a little fruit. That is enough for God. He can work with such. I would advise you to cut them a little slack, lest you also be judged for your imperfections.

God deals with His disobedient children the same way we deal with ours. He chastens them.

As for willful sin, it will help to read the last verse in the chapter of Heb.10.

Sabitarian said:

veteran,
Where did sacrifices begin? What was the first sacrifice and in what Book did it happen? Did Christ die for all sin or just accidental or unknowing sin? I am back in the old and purposeful sin is not covered and I am sure that in the new it is the same as both parts must align for it to be true. I just wish that my memory was not so old as I might remember where it is in scripture without having to read it all over again.
I still ask the question what is the sign of God? And where is it listed in the Book?
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

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The case of the adulteress in John 8 which the Pharisees brought to Jesus to tempt Him answers your question of examples of God forgiving even willful sin.

Rach said:

Could I perhaps add something to the 'purposeful sin' debate....just for thought?
Remember when Jesus warns Peter that before the cock crows, he would deny Jesus three times? Peter denied Jesus three times that night....and while he may not have recalled Jesus' prediction while he was doing it, he certainly knew he was lying his butt off...he most certainly knew Jesus. So we could argue that this was really was wilful sin, and that Jesus forgave him for this. So is wilful sin forgiveable? Peter was crushed by his sin and repentant. I think that's the big issue here....Jesus died for ALL our sins...but we must be repentant....and being truly repentant means putting that sin to death...turning from it, not just shrugging it aside as a 'whoops'.
Just food for thought.

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But that is not the definition of repentance. It simply means to change one's mind. It could apply to a variety of things. There is no passage that says repentance from sin is required to qualify for eternal life. The context is unbelief. We are required to turn to faith. That is the repentance that leads to life. Repentance from sin is the result of our salvation, not the pathway to it.

Rach said:

Could I perhaps add something to the 'purposeful sin' debate....just for thought?
Remember when Jesus warns Peter that before the cock crows, he would deny Jesus three times? Peter denied Jesus three times that night....and while he may not have recalled Jesus' prediction while he was doing it, he certainly knew he was lying his butt off...he most certainly knew Jesus. So we could argue that this was really was wilful sin, and that Jesus forgave him for this. So is wilful sin forgiveable? Peter was crushed by his sin and repentant. I think that's the big issue here....Jesus died for ALL our sins...but we must be repentant....and being truly repentant means putting that sin to death...turning from it, not just shrugging it aside as a 'whoops'.
Just food for thought.

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Well said, however, there was a prophecy back in the OT that His sheep would be scattered at that time of His crucifixion, obviously for God's purpose of preserving the Apostles and what He chose them to fulfill (compare Zech.13:7 with Matt.26:31). So because that was prophesied to occur, don't think Peter's denial can be completely attributed to his own free will.

But for the adulteress of John 8 which our Lord Jesus forgave, that was an example of free-will sin being forgiven.

veteran said:

Well said, however, there was a prophecy back in the OT that His sheep would be scattered at that time of His crucifixion, obviously for God's purpose of preserving the Apostles and what He chose them to fulfill (compare Zech.13:7 with Matt.26:31). So because that was prophesied to occur, don't think Peter's denial can be completely attributed to his own free will.

But for the adulteress of John 8 which our Lord Jesus forgave, that was an example of free-will sin being forgiven.

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i disagree with you on this point. according to scripture and the character and nature of God i know God does not do evil. if you will reflect on matt 29:41 you will see that Jesus told him to pray in order to keep himself out of temptation. Jesus said that if you believe anything you ask you will receive. so had peter done as Jesus said to then peter may of never denied Jesus. zech 13:7 talks of Jesus smacking the shepard and as a result scattering the flock. so who is the shepard Jesus smacked? satan is who i believe is being referred too and as a result satan's flock was scattered. which Jesus will return to protect by becoming our shepard.

God bless

7angels said:

i disagree with you on this point. according to scripture and the character and nature of God i know God does not do evil. if you will reflect on matt 29:41 you will see that Jesus told him to pray in order to keep himself out of temptation. Jesus said that if you believe anything you ask you will receive. so had peter done as Jesus said to then peter may of never denied Jesus. zech 13:7 talks of Jesus smacking the shepard and as a result scattering the flock. so who is the shepard Jesus smacked? satan is who i believe is being referred too and as a result satan's flock was scattered. which Jesus will return to protect by becoming our shepard.

God bless

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Disagree with me all you want. But you should make sure first it's actually me that you're disagreeing with...

Zech 13:6-7
6 And one shall say unto him, 'What are these wounds in thine hands?' Then he shall answer, 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.'
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn Mine hand upon the little ones.
(KJV)

Mark 14:27-29
27 And Jesus saith unto them, "All ye shall be offended because of Me this night: for it is written, 'I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.'
28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee."
29 But Peter said unto Him, "Although all shall be offended, yet will not I."
(KJV)


I don't see that event as having anything to do with God working evil, but only as a way He used to protect His sheep from being crucified along with our Lord Jesus at that time. Yet Peter's time of crucifixion would... eventually come, as per history in Rome Peter was crucified there.

7angels said:

i disagree with you on this point. according to scripture and the character and nature of God i know God does not do evil. if you will reflect on matt 29:41 you will see that Jesus told him to pray in order to keep himself out of temptation. Jesus said that if you believe anything you ask you will receive. so had peter done as Jesus said to then peter may of never denied Jesus. zech 13:7 talks of Jesus smacking the shepard and as a result scattering the flock. so who is the shepard Jesus smacked? satan is who i believe is being referred too and as a result satan's flock was scattered. which Jesus will return to protect by becoming our shepard.

God bless

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Consider this since you dont believe God creates evil.
"S[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]hall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [/background]it[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]?" Amos 3:6 [/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]What about the destruction of Sodom and Gemmorah, or the killing of every firstborn child in Egypt? [/background]
You cannot allow yourself to fall into the snare that God is ONLY love. He is the creator, of ALL THINGS. Do you think Hurricane Katrina was just a 'coincidence'? A city that was as vile and corrupt as 'in the days of Noah' was that not the work of God?
While it is important to love others, we must also understand that, if one walks righteously God will be a blessing to that person, but those that choose to walk in darkness, especially knowing the 'way', God will be their stumbling block.
I recommend a study on the 'reprobate' that we're told of in Romans 1:28

The title of this thread is "Christ's Christianity and Paul's Christianity are not the same".......the intended purpose of such a title is obvious regardless of any comment about it.

veteran,
Christ said that He did not accuse her, not that He forgave her. Willful sin can be covered, but not blotted out as you will still face the Maker and all of your sin will be examined at the time to determine whether or not you are worthy of Grace. The elders will see for themselves the judgement of God and know the reason for it, as God does not want any to think that He is unfair.
Did Christ keep the Holy Days of God, did He do His preaching in the Synagog, yes He did preach all of the time where ever He was, but His teaching in the Synagog is crucial to Who He was following, the Father.
Did Paul Keep the Holy Days of God, did he do his preaching in the Synagog, and yes he did preach all of the time as Christ did where ever he went, but his teaching in the Synagog is crucial to Who he was following, the Father.
Is the teaching of Christ different from that of Paul? Not in the slighest.

Sabitarian said:

Willful sin can be covered, but not blotted out as you will still face the Maker and all of your sin will be examined at the time to determine whether or not you are worthy of Grace.

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Psa_51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Psa_51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.


Isa_44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

Act_3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Psa_103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.


Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Sabitarian said:

veteran,
Christ said that He did not accuse her, not that He forgave her. Willful sin can be covered, but not blotted out as you will still face the Maker and all of your sin will be examined at the time to determine whether or not you are worthy of Grace. The elders will see for themselves the judgement of God and know the reason for it, as God does not want any to think that He is unfair.
Did Christ keep the Holy Days of God, did He do His preaching in the Synagog, yes He did preach all of the time where ever He was, but His teaching in the Synagog is crucial to Who He was following, the Father.
Did Paul Keep the Holy Days of God, did he do his preaching in the Synagog, and yes he did preach all of the time as Christ did where ever he went, but his teaching in the Synagog is crucial to Who he was following, the Father.
Is the teaching of Christ different from that of Paul? Not in the slighest.

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Here's what Jesus said to her...

John 8:11
11 She said, "No man, Lord". And Jesus said unto her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
(KJV)

You just need to admit that you're wrong and let that be the end of it, instead of contiually trying to pry at the Scriptures to try and make it read like how you want, just so you can keep your 'own' tradition.