Christ's Christianity and Paul's Christianity are Not the Same

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Jul 6, 2011
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James,
It depends what you mean as early church history. The NT is early church history and addresses the issue in question as in where some said they followed Paul and some Apollos.
Of course there were some confusions in some churches which all the epistles address.
Peter does make mention of some confusion being generated by Paul’s epistles but his critique is rather deferential to his fellow apostle. (2Pet. 3:15-16) IMO, it's not quite fair to put ALL the blame on the shoulders of the spiritual dullness of Paul's readers.
Well confusion is only being generated for some because their theology was being corrected. But Peter’s epistle is affirmation of Paul’s epistles, I don’t see any deferential at all.
Scriptural correction is not blame but equipping for all good works, blame is what the untaught and unstable twisters would call it.

The Apostle Paul’s writings were/are the source of many misunderstandings of theology.
Only to the unstable and twisters, as Peter’s epistle says.

Or maybe their audience was completely different. Jesus spoke ‘only to the Lost sheep of the House of Israel’ (
Matt. 15:24) and the Apostle Paul to Hellenistic largely scripturally ignorant gatherings (Rom. 15:16).
Not entirely, because the epistle to the Romans is to the church in Rome of Jews and Gentiles who were not getting along. Romans 1 addressed the sin and lawlessness of Gentile cultures and Romans 2 the legalism and judgmentalism of Judaism.
 

Strat

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The word of God,the Bible is all we have and those who do not believe it is the word of God should just put it down,walk away and enjoy what little time you have.

The Bible says the just shall live by faith and part of that faith is faith in the word of God,that it is the word of God,written by men of God,inspired by God....why should anyone flatter themselves in their vain and foolish mind by thinking they can add to or take anything from it...a book that was written thousands of years before they were born.

The Bible has had many enemies and has defeated them all and you will be no different,long after you are dust the Bible will be here changing hearts and lives as it has done for centuries and will continue to do until the end comes.

The best thing for the Bible critic to do is just give up,eat,drink and be merry for tomorrow,next month,next year perhaps this afternoon you die....then you will find out about the truth of the word of God.....faith is the great stumbling block of the proud,vain and conceited human heart..people choose not beleive what thay cannot comprehend thinking that what they cannot understand cannot be true....God calls us to faith because he knows that will strip us of our pride and vanity,if you are not willing to take that step there is no hope for you.
 
Oct 22, 2011
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James,
It depends what you mean as early church history. The NT is early church history and addresses the issue in question as in where some said they followed Paul and some Apollos.

I think it’s human nature to have ‘favorite teachers’. Some believers favored Paul’s teachings others Apollos, Peter, etc. (1Cor. 1:12) Were Paul’s, Apollos’, Barnabas’, James, Peter’s, Luke’s, Matthew’s, Mark’s, Bartholomew’s, Phillip’s and John’s, etc., theology absolutely identical? (Probably not.) Though their individual teachings started out being closely aligned many theological divisions quickly developed at the beginning of the second century continuing to the wide doctrinal breath of present day religious denominations.


Of course there were some confusions in some churches which all the epistles address.
Well confusion is only being generated for some because their theology was being corrected. But Peter’s epistle is affirmation of Paul’s epistles, I don’t see any deferential at all.
Scriptural correction is not blame but equipping for all good works, blame is what the untaught and unstable twisters would call it.

Has your theology evolved through the years? Is theology and the Word of God stagnant (not subject to any variance of perception)? Had the Apostle Paul lived to be an old man would his latter letters still reflect EXACTLY the same views in every aspect as those letters which were preserved in the NT? As Tertullian put it, “If the devil's ingenuity escalates daily, why should God's work have ceased advancing to new heights? “ Do you permit the Holy Spirit to move in new directions or is He forever bound by popular Christian Pauline interpretations? When and for how long in recorded Bible history has ‘popular opinion’ been correct in interpreting God’s Will?


Only to the unstable and twisters, as Peter’s epistle says. .

So it’s all a big coincidence that all those false teachings I mentioned in the previous post (which you deftly snipped from your response) stem largely from Pauline texts? Why should I believe popular interpretations of Paul’s views on God’s Law, for instance, when the same Christians that endorse every teaching of Paul as the infallible ‘Word of God’ defiantly refuse to follow the same Apostle’s teaching on not permitting women to speak in church(1Co 14:34), their wearing of headscarves while praying (1Co 11:5-6) or being saved in child-bearing (1Ti 2:15)?

No, because the epistle to the Romans is to the church in Rome of Jews and Gentiles who were not getting along. Romans 1 addressed the sin and lawlessness of Gentile cultures and Romans 2 the legalism and judgmentalism of Judaism.

Could there be a reasonable ‘middle ground’ between complete lawlessness (the rejection of the entirety of God’s Law) and Judaic legalism?
 
Jul 6, 2011
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James,
As we see in the NT, not least 1 Cor 1, the earliest church at Corinth was corrected in its erring to say it followed Apollos or Paul, by the earliest church in the form of Paul.
And that was the earliest church, long before any theological divisions of the second century that you refer to.
My theology has evolved, but as far as I am aware only like that of Apollos, namely I have learnt more over time building on the foundation I first knew.
Had the Apostle Paul lived to be an old man would his latter letters still reflect EXACTLY the same views in every aspect as those letters which were preserved in the NT?
He did live to be fairly old and yes I assume his letters would reflect exactly the same as he received from the risen Lord. Why, don’t you think what he wrote in the epistles is from Christ?
Do you permit the Holy Spirit to move in new directions or is He forever bound by popular Christian Pauline interpretations?
Apart from the odd occasion which he announces beforehand, Paul preached what he received from the risen Lord. The Holy Spirit would in that respect be bound by what was received from the risen Lord, because the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. Read John 14-16 for example.
So it’s all a big coincidence that all those false teachings I mentioned in the previous post (which you deftly snipped from your response) stem largely from Pauline texts?
The false teaching was your faulty understanding.
Why should I believe popular interpretations of Paul’s views on God’s Law,
Ok enough. The epistles by Paul are part of Christianity as the revelation of Jesus Christ. Paul claims he received them from the risen Lord and Paul is endorsed by the others according to Acts and directly endorsed by epistles of Peter. Anyone trying to suggest they are ‘Paul’s view on God’s law’ is casting doubt on the validity of the NT.
I suspect your main gripe is the direct condemnation of homosexual practice in the epistles of Paul. Am I right?
defiantly refuse to follow the same Apostle’s teaching on not permitting women to speak in church (1Co 14:34), their wearing of headscarves while praying (1Co 11:5-6) or being saved in child-bearing (1Ti 2:15)?
The Bible is understood in context and holistically. So for example the direction that women are not supposed to speak in church is balanced with other passages in the epistles by Paul where women appear to be in forms of leadership in the church.

Could there be a reasonable ‘middle ground’ between complete lawlessness (the rejection of the entirety of God’s Law) and Judaic legalism?
Firstly do you accept the correction to your previous statement which claimed that Paul didn’t preach to Jews? It seems to me you’re your incorrect proposal of a difference between the gospels and the epistles is due to your incomplete knowledge.
 
Oct 22, 2011
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As we see in the NT, not least 1 Cor 1, the earliest church at Corinth was corrected in its erring to say it followed Apollos or Paul, by the earliest church in the form of Paul.
And that was the earliest church, long before any theological divisions of the second century that you refer to.

There were dozens, then hundreds of gospel preachers in the early church scattered over thousands of miles. Do you really believe their message was identical in every church?


My theology has evolved, but as far as I am aware only like that of Apollos, namely I have learnt more over time building on the foundation I first knew.

Glad to hear that. We all should grow in wisdom and knowledge and admit that we ‘don’t know everything’. Even our illustrious brother Paul admitted that he ‘saw through a glass darkly’ (1Cor 13:12) Did you ever have to “unlearn” a particular doctrine?


He did live to be fairly old and yes I assume his letters would reflect exactly the same as he received from the risen Lord. Why, don’t you think what he wrote in the epistles is from Christ?

Paul put his pants on one leg at time, just like you and I. The apostle Paul was simply writing to infant churches that he established to guide them unto maturity. I don’t believe he intended every single letter and every single sentence he put to parchment to be forever construed as “the immutable, inspired Word of God”. I am sincerely thankful that some copies of his writings survived the throes of antiquity for our spiritual enlightenment but Paul was not the only begotten Son of God. Merely, one of His chosen (and utterly fallible) ministers.


The false teaching was your faulty understanding.

Has your doctrinal understanding ever been faulty? Is it presently without the possibility of fault?



Ok enough. The epistles by Paul are part of Christianity as the revelation of Jesus Christ. Paul claims he received them from the risen Lord and Paul is endorsed by the others according to Acts and directly endorsed by epistles of Peter. Anyone trying to suggest they are ‘Paul’s view on God’s law’ is casting doubt on the validity of the NT.

We are oft-told to question what our ministers tell us and compare it to the Word of God. What do we do when a New Testament teacher such as Paul apparently thoroughly contradicts OT teachings in certain matters re God’s Law? Was the OT Holy Spirit different than the NT Holy Spirit? (No.) The teachings of Paul are surely an important aspect of the Truth but I don’t believe there are the end-all of spiritual enlightenment. I believe God can still direct us by His Holy Spirit and prod us to even higher ground if He so chooses.


I suspect your main gripe is the direct condemnation of homosexual practice in the epistles of Paul. Am I right?

Hah! LOL! No, you couldn’t be further from the truth, my friend. I despise sodomites and homosexuality from the very core of my being! Just goes to show how BrightMorningStar’s perceptions can be so far off the mark.


The Bible is understood in context and holistically. So for example the direction that women are not supposed to speak in church is balanced with other passages in the epistles by Paul where women appear to be in forms of leadership in the church.

No, Paul made his position on women keeping silent in the church very clear in three separate letters and six specific instances:
(1Cor.14:34)
(1Ti. 2:11-12)
(Col.3:18)
(1Cor. 7:3-4)
(1Cor. 7:34)
(1Cor. 7:39)

And what of Paul's teachings regarding veils and childbearing?

Firstly do you accept the correction to your previous statement which claimed that Paul didn’t preach to Jews?

I did not say that Paul NEVER preached to Jews. My point was that, as “the apostle of the Gentiles” his audience consisted (and I specifically used the term) “LARGELY” of scripturally ignorant Gentiles and nascent church believers who were not conversant with God’s Law.


It seems to me you’re your incorrect proposal of a difference between the gospels and the epistles is due to your incomplete knowledge.

We all see through the glass darkly, Brightmorningstar. Now will you kindly answer my previous question?

Could there be a reasonable ‘middle ground’ between complete lawlessness (the rejection of the entirety of God’s Law) and Judaic legalism?
 
Jul 6, 2011
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James,
There were dozens, then hundreds of gospel preachers in the early church scattered over thousands of miles. Do you really believe their message was identical in every church?
We can see from the scripture that it wasn’t. But what has that got to do with the point put to you that the early church was also made up of the BT writers?

Even our illustrious brother Paul admitted that he ‘saw through a glass darkly’ (1Cor 13:12) Did you ever have to “unlearn” a particular doctrine?
Seeing as through a glass darkly is about what we don’t know, not about what we do know as witnessed in the NT

I don’t believe he intended every single letter and every single sentence he put to parchment to be forever construed as “the immutable, inspired Word of God”.
Quite right, he announces where he gives his own opinion rather than the Lord’s, so not every single sentence.
but Paul was not the only begotten Son of God. Merely, one of His chosen (and utterly fallible) ministers.
Neither were any of the NT writers the only begotten Son of God.

We are oft-told to question what our ministers tell us and compare it to the Word of God. What do we do when a New Testament teacher such as Paul apparently thoroughly contradicts OT teachings in certain matters re God’s Law?
That would be the word of God the minister tells you to compare against. Paul’s epistles do not contradict the OT.
The teachings of Paul are surely an important aspect of the Truth but I don’t believe there are the end-all of spiritual enlightenment.
Sorry but Christians treat the epistles of Paul as the word of God, not least because he received what he preached from the risen Lord and is affirmed by other NT writers such as Peter and accepted by the other apostles according to Luke.
What scriptural grounds do you have for your doubts?

Hah! LOL! No, you couldn’t be further from the truth,
Interesting.

No, Paul made his position on women keeping silent in the church very clear in three separate letters and six specific instances:
I never said he didn’t, what I pointed you to was where women were also in positions of leadership such as Romans 14 for example.

Could there be a reasonable ‘middle ground’ between complete lawlessness (the rejection of the entirety of God’s Law) and Judaic legalism?
Did you not read Romans 1-2? Judaic legalism is just as bad as lawlessness.
Well the middle ground is faith in Christ, the law on our hearts, free not to sin.
 

Axehead

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[background=rgb(249,253,255)]Are we to assume that these brothers who are immoral are to be outcasts in the mind of Paul but for Jesus it is exactly these same people who NEED Christ's love. And doesn't Paul's Christianity assume a Judgemental and holier-than-thou point of view that "I, who am not [/background][background=rgb(249,253,255)]sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler are outcasting YOU, brother , and I shall not eat with you." ??? [/background]

Firstly, you are interpreting those verses through your own biases (agenda??). You should look at the whole life of Paul and see who he preached to (the Gentiles), who he hung out with and loved (Carnal Corinthians who were immoral).

Secondly, we are not taught to emulate Christ. Both Christ and Paul teach the same thing and that is "Christ in us".

We don't copy Christ, emulate, mimic or imitate Him. That is completely impossible. He must live in you and through you by the Holy Spirit.

Christianity is CHRIST and CHRIST is Christianity.

JESUS:
John_15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.


PAUL:
Col_1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Your post comes off as agenda driven because Paul showed a lot of love to immoral Gentiles and even immoral carnal Christians.

Axehead

I think it’s human nature to have ‘favorite teachers’. Some believers favored Paul’s teachings others Apollos, Peter, etc. (1Cor. 1:12) Were Paul’s, Apollos’, Barnabas’, James, Peter’s, Luke’s, Matthew’s, Mark’s, Bartholomew’s, Phillip’s and John’s, etc., theology absolutely identical? (Probably not.) Though their individual teachings started out being closely aligned many theological divisions quickly developed at the beginning of the second century continuing to the wide doctrinal breath of present day religious denominations.

Thank God we are not slaves to "human nature" anymore. My favorite teacher is the Holy Spirit. He wrote the New Testament.

Axehead
 
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veteran

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Firstly, you are interpreting those verses through your own biases (agenda??). You should look at the whole life of Paul and see who he preached to (the Gentiles), who he hung out with and loved (Carnal Corinthians who were immoral).

Secondly, we are not taught to emulate Christ. Both Christ and Paul teach the same thing and that is "Christ in us".

We don't copy Christ, emulate, mimic or imitate Him. That is completely impossible. He must live in you and through you by the Holy Spirit.

Christianity is CHRIST and CHRIST is Christianity.

JESUS:
John_15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.


PAUL:
Col_1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Your post comes off as agenda driven because Paul showed a lot of love to immoral Gentiles and even immoral carnal Christians.

Axehead



Thank God we are not slaves to "human nature" anymore. My favorite teacher is the Holy Spirit. He wrote the New Testament.

Axehead

Now that's a good witness.
 
Oct 22, 2011
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Thanks for your fair and informative response, Brightmorningstar.
We can see from the scripture that it wasn’t. But what has that got to do with the point put to you that the early church was also made up of the BT writers?

What does “BT” writer stand for? I presume you meant ‘NT’ (New Testament) writers? Paul was the first to put anything to parchment and that didn’t occur till about thirty years after the resurrection of Christ. Paul’s letters could not have had that wide a circulation throughout the Levant region and beyond at that time. The four gospels were probably penned next but they are more parallel historical witness records of the Life of Christ rather than doctrinal essays.
All I’m saying is that they could have been varying doctrinal opinions regarding God’s Law in some early Christian churches. The Churches in Jerusalem would more naturally regularly address points of God’s Law rather than Paul’s Gentile congregations who were largely unfamiliar with the Bible.


Seeing as through a glass darkly is about what we don’t know, not about what we do know as witnessed in the NT.

IMO the idiomatic phrase merely means “not having the full picture” or only “knowing in part. We all have an understanding of the Truth that needs some refinement.


Quite right, he announces where he gives his own opinion rather than the Lord’s, so not every single sentence.

Yes, sometimes Paul specifically states where he is giving his personal opinion. That’s not what I’m talking about. As the spiritual founder of a multitude of churches Paul occasionally pens a letter and gives certain doctrinal correction and advice to these Gentile ‘babes in Christ’.

My basic question is, (and bear with me as I attempt to define a sensitive and difficult to describe subject) does every single sentence he wrote (that was not specifically mentioned as ‘his opinion’) to each specific Gentile church audience constitute as ‘the immutable Word of God’? Is it possible that the Holy Spirit might guide us to reveal where the apostle may been ‘pontificating a bit’, tooting his own horn a tad (“Hebrew of the Hebrews”), or slightly over-zealous expounding upon topics where he himself did not yet “have the full picture”? Might an Israelite Christian have a slightly different take than a Gentile believer?

Paul sat at the feet of renowned Judaic scholars like Gamaliel and had his well-worn parchments to peruse. While we now have instantly at our fingertips digital copies of dozens of complete biblical translations, the wealth of two thousand years of Christian scholarship and commentaries, Strong’s Greek and Hebrew dictionaries, W.E. Vine’s Expository of the Bible, etc., Is there a possibility that the Holy Spirit might now show us a more refined understanding? Are we, at least, permitted to relate more to the Apostle James’ definition of faith and the importance of works than Paul’s sometimes ambiguous passages?


Neither were any of the NT writers the only begotten Son of God.

My point was simply that these “inspired” NT writers were also “fallible” human instruments. Some writers on this Christian forum occasionally write doctrinally “inspired” posts. At other times the same authors work is markedly “less inspired” and still at other times. . . borders on utter tripe. What does “inspired” really mean? What if tomorrow some archaeologist unearths a genuine, verifiable, autographed original text of the Second Letter of Paul to the Galatians where after further reflection the noted Apostle recants certain aspects of what he previously wrote? Which version would be the irrefutable “Word of God” on the matter? Did you ever re-read something you wrote earlier and later changed your mind or wish you stated something a bit differently?

That would be the word of God the minister tells you to compare against. Paul’s epistles do not contradict the OT.

So you say. Other scholars might disagree with your assessment.


Sorry but Christians treat the epistles of Paul as the word of God, not least because he received what he preached from the risen Lord and is affirmed by other NT writers such as Peter and accepted by the other apostles according to Luke.

Yeah, those are the few snippets that have been recorded in the scriptures. I’m sure there were plenty of other disputations about the apostle Paul’s writings that are forever lost in antiquity. My impression is that the leaders of the Church in Jerusalem recognized God's hand in the undeniable importance of Paul’s ministry to the Gentiles but weren’t all that sorry to see him leave (especially those who had beloved relatives whom the over-zealous Saul/Paul the Pharisee was directly responsible for imprisoning, torturing or stoning to death for their faith in Christ).


What scriptural grounds do you have for your doubts?

Oh, only about a couple of thousand or so scriptures which venerate the Law of God!


I never said he didn’t, what I pointed you to was where women were also in positions of leadership such as Romans 14 for example.

You still have yet to answer my question as to why Christians like you who take every solitary word Paul says about the Law of God as irrefutable Word of God, yet choose to totally ignore his writings requiring women wearing veils and being saved through child birth? Please answer!


Did you not read Romans 1-2? Judaic legalism is just as bad as lawlessness.
Well the middle ground is faith in Christ, the law on our hearts, free not to sin.

Astute answer! I’m just less than impressed by all these Christians who claim ‘the law is in their hearts’ while they continually absolve or totally excuse themselves of their servile obligations to follow Christ’s example of obedience to the Father’s commandments. “It’s all been nailed to the cross, brother. . . pass me those baby back pork ribs, will ya?”
 
Jul 6, 2011
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James,
Thanks for recognising the typo. I meant NT writers.
The four gospels were probably penned next but they are more parallel historical witness records of the Life of Christ rather than doctrinal essays.
Careful because the epistles are directed to the churches based on the life of Christ and include plenty of what Christ did and taught.
Acts onwards is the church post Pentecost, released in the Holy Spirit to put into practice Christ’s teaching. The idea that there are two different gospels suggests some are caught in the same occasional confusion the disciples had, that we see in the gospels, whilst they were learning from Jesus.
All I’m saying is that they could have been varying doctrinal opinions regarding God’s Law in some early Christian churches.
We can see from the NT epistles that there most definitely were.
The Churches in Jerusalem would more naturally regularly address points of God’s Law rather than Paul’s Gentile congregations who were largely unfamiliar with the Bible.
OT law you mean? If so yes.
IMO the idiomatic phrase merely means "not having the full picture" or only "knowing in part. We all have an understanding of the Truth that needs some refinement.
On the contrary, that would mean we don’t have the truth if it needs refinement. What we are missing is the full understanding of the truth, which Jesus explains, there are things we cannot yet understand.
does every single sentence he wrote (that was not specifically mentioned as ‘his opinion’) to each specific Gentile church audience constitute as ‘the immutable Word of God’?
Yes, why not? So are you saying you do not believe every single thing written in the rest of the NT, or is it just the epistles by Paul?
As you correctly observe he was primarily an apostle to the Gentiles yet was an expert in Jewish matters, not least having studied under Rabban Gamaliel.
But there is a circular confusion in your argument.
While we now have instantly at our fingertips digital copies of dozens of complete biblical translations, the wealth of two thousand years of Christian scholarship and commentaries, Strong’s Greek and Hebrew dictionaries, W.E. Vine’s Expository of the Bible, etc., Is there a possibility that the Holy Spirit might now show us a more refined understanding?
That two thousand years of scholarship is also based on Paul’s epistles as well as the rest of the NT. What you are asking makes no sense unless you are saying another spirit is leading you astray. The NT defines the Holy Spirit as the inspiration of the NT. If you are implying the NT needs refining then it isnt the Holy Spirit prompting that.
Are we, at least, permitted to relate more to the Apostle James’ definition of faith and the importance of works than Paul’s sometimes ambiguous passages?
No because neither are ambiguous in a holistic context, but James statement on face value is more ambiguous and that is why the book of James was not so readily accepted as authentic at first.
My point was simply that these "inspired" NT writers were also "fallible" human instruments.
But on that logic how would anyone know Paul wasn’t right and the gospels wrong?
So you say.
No! I was referring to what the Bible texts say. I didn’t write the Bible. Liberal scholars often deny what the Bible says as the revelation from God by trying to attribute it to the mere opinions of others.
You still have yet to answer my question as to why Christians like you who take every solitary word Paul says about the Law of God as irrefutable Word of God, yet choose to totally ignore his writings requiring women wearing veils and being saved through child birth? Please answer!
Your question is nonsense. It is based on you not taking every solitary word and for some reason choosing Paul’s epistles. How can Christians like me take every solitary word if we totally ignore his writings requiring women wearing veils etc? That would mean we don’t take every solitary word. But we take every word in context, both in the passages and holistically.
The dilemma with this issue is there seems to be a conflict with what the Corinthians epistle says as opposed to the Romans epistle, unless in this case the prohibition only applies to the Corinthian church, perhaps because the women were in error there and causing problems.
pass me those baby back pork ribs, will ya?"
Ugh? Have you not yet grasped that Christ has fulfilled the law and the prophets?
Mark 7:19
For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
Romans 14:20
Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.
 

Strat

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Why don't people who doubt the word of God write their own Bible...call it Bob's Bible or Bill's Big Tales To Live By...create your own heaven and of course leave out Hell...create your own fools paradise where you can be the King Fool....the fool has said in his heart there is no God so it naturally follows that like minded fools would doubt his word as well.
 
Oct 22, 2011
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Careful because the epistles are directed to the churches based on the life of Christ and include plenty of what Christ did and taught.

Upon further reflection, you’re right. There was plenty of doctrinal exposition by Christ in the gospels. See, even ‘inspired’ writers like me can have a change of heart. ;)


Acts onwards is the church post Pentecost, released in the Holy Spirit to put into practice Christ’s teaching. The idea that there are two different gospels suggests some are caught in the same occasional confusion the disciples had, that we see in the gospels, whilst they were learning from Jesus.

Can the Holy Spirit emphasize certain aspects of God’s Law more to one group of believers than another?


We can see from the NT epistles that there most definitely were.
OT law you mean? If so yes.

Are they any of the OT laws that are continued in the NT? Like the Ten Commandments, for instance?


On the contrary, that would mean we don’t have the truth if it needs refinement. What we are missing is the full understanding of the truth, which Jesus explains, there are things we cannot yet understand.

We are in basic agreement on this point only expressing it with slightly different semantics.


Yes, why not? So are you saying you do not believe every single thing written in the rest of the NT, or is it just the epistles by Paul?

What I’m saying is that we can rely on the Holy Spirit to winnow the chaff from the wheat. (1John 2:27)


As you correctly observe he was primarily an apostle to the Gentiles yet was an expert in Jewish matters, not least having studied under Rabban Gamaliel.
But there is a circular confusion in your argument.

Paul’s confusing behavior is often reflected writings:

With great pride he expounds upon his Hebrew heritage and great affection for his Israelite brethren, yet gets utterly frustrated with them and goes off to preach to the Gentiles. He preaches against the NT practice of circumcision in one chapter (Acts 15) and in the very next chapter (Acts 16) has his ministerial partner Timothy undergo circumcision in Jerusalem. He commends God’s Law in one instance (Acts 24:14) and appears to dispense with it entirely in another (Col. 2:14). He instructs his readers to follow Christ (1Cor. 1:12-13) then tells them to follow Paul (Phil 3:17). He argues vociferously with his faithful companion Barnabas over Mark joining there entourage, then later, recruits Mark’s assistance. Yes, talking about the Apostle Paul does tend to a lot of confusion. Always did, always will. . .

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not implying that the entirety of the apostle Paul’s writings aren’t to be trusted. And for your information, I highly commend all of Paul’s commandments towards women. It’s just that, some of the things he says regarding God’s Law are contradictory and require IMO more than a few teaspoons of salt (i.e., righteous discernment).

That two thousand years of scholarship is also based on Paul’s epistles as well as the rest of the NT. What you are asking makes no sense unless you are saying another spirit is leading you astray. The NT defines the Holy Spirit as the inspiration of the NT. If you are implying the NT needs refining then it isn’t the Holy Spirit prompting that.

What I’m discovering is that there are certain doctrinal gems, especially re the Law of God, that can be gleaned by examining the teachings of certain minority denominations (Mark 9:40) such as the Seventh Day Adventists, Herbert W. Armstrong’s Worldwide Church of God or British Israelism that mainstream denominations (and the Internet and radio Bible Answer know-it-alls) are offhandedly dismissing as ‘heresy’ simply because it doesn’t totally conform to the popular teachings of their favorite theological seminaries, (e.g. the Dallas Theological Seminary)

No because neither are ambiguous in a holistic context, but James statement on face value is more ambiguous and that is why the book of James was not so readily accepted as authentic at first.

Accepted by whom? Do you, therefore, attribute less authority to the writings of apostle James? Is your faith based upon the dictates of some esteemed ecclesiastical conference decrees or reliance on the leadings of the Holy Spirit within us for discernment? (John 14:26) Though not in the authorized canon of scripture, I have found much wisdom in the inspired teachings in the apocryphal books of Sirach, Wisdom, as well as, the Books of Enoch, Jasher and Jubilees.

Which particular “statement of James” do you find “ambiguous” and why?

But on that logic how would anyone know Paul wasn’t right and the gospels wrong?


Possibly. . . but there's the "holistic context", as you put it, to consider and it's overwhelmingly sides with the other scriptural accounts.

In the apostle’s own words:
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

No! I was referring to what the Bible texts say. I didn’t write the Bible. Liberal scholars often deny what the Bible says as the revelation from God by trying to attribute it to the mere opinions of others.

I could care less what “liberal scholars” say. My views politically and scripturally are hardly “liberal”. We all have subjective opinions, why should NT writers be any different?

Your question is nonsense. It is based on you not taking every solitary word and for some reason choosing Paul’s epistles. How can Christians like me take every solitary word if we totally ignore his writings requiring women wearing veils etc? That would mean we don’t take every solitary word. But we take every word in context, both in the passages and holistically.

The dilemma with this issue is there seems to be a conflict with what the Corinthians epistle says as opposed to the Romans epistle, unless in this case the prohibition only applies to the Corinthian church, perhaps because the women were in error there and causing problems.


Nonsense! “Perhaps”? You’re wildly rationalizing excuses and vainly attempting to contrive somewhat semi-plausible explanations for not complying with the apostle Paul’s simple commands. Paul explains exactly why he commands women to cover their heads with veils and it had NOTHING to do with differing traditions in Rome and Corinth.

1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

It’s safe to assume that angels were present in both locations and amongst us today. Women's heads should, therefore, continue to be covered when they pray just as the apostle preached in the First Century.


Ugh? Have you not yet grasped that Christ has fulfilled the law and the prophets?
Mark 7:19
For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
Romans 14:20
Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.

The question at hand is: Is every creature and plant to be considered “food”? Would you eat toadstools? Sewer rats, buzzards, roadkill? Things that are strangled? Food offered to idols? Are you allowed to drink blood? Instinctively (a God-given sixth sense), you wouldn’t eat that disgusting fare on a bet even though your (faulty) theology teachings appears to claim it’s “perfectly wonderful food”.
Why do you think God declared some animals clean and others unclean?

Jesus gave us a simple lesson on clean food (for those with spiritual ears to hear):

Luke 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

Snakes, shellfish, predators and scavengers (as well as pigs) are not to be considered “food”. You can search the Bible till Kingdom come and you’ll NEVER find any faithful OT believer or Christ or any of his NT disciples ingesting pork or any other “unclean” beast.

There’s an interesting thread where the subject of clean/unclean food is discussed in greater detail. However, it does reflect on two variant gospel renditions being preached today.
 
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James,
Can the Holy Spirit emphasize certain aspects of God’s Law more to one group of believers than another?
I would say yes of course by what the NT describes even in the fact that Paul was lead to be an apostle to the Gentiles and the churches written to and about in the NT all had different emphasis. (there was praise and correction)
The key point is churches today are still faced with different interpretations and have different emphasis, but should not be doing what the NT were corrected about.
Are they any of the OT laws that are continued in the NT? Like the Ten Commandments, for instance?
None of the OT law is continued, Jesus fulfilled the law. Much of what the OT law still applies of course but its no longer law, through Christ one lives by the Spirit. So for example when we live by the Spirit we no longer have to avoid theft as we now don’t want to steal anyway, we are focused on doing what Christ teaches.
We are in basic agreement on this point only expressing it with slightly different semantics.
No I disagree entirely. The truth cannot be the truth if it needs refining. What we know of the truth is sufficient for our relationship with God and salvation.
What I’m saying is that we can rely on the Holy Spirit to winnow the chaff from the wheat. (1John 2:27)
Circular. If you are questioning whether one can know all the Bible is ‘the immutable Word of God’? how can you be sure the 1 John 2:27 is?
The chaff from the wheat is what is written in the NT as opposed to stuff that is contrary.
1 John 2:27 in context
24 What you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son p and in the Father. q 25 And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life. r 26 I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.
27 The anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you don’t need anyone to teach you. Instead, His anointing teaches you about all things s and is true and is not a lie; just as He has taught you, remain in Him.
Now Acts 15 and 16 should also be in holistic context or you will see them as contradiction. The point is circumcision is no longer necessary with faith in Christ, it has no bearing one way or the other so the problem is it being done as though it counts for something in Christ. So it makes no difference to Timothy, except it get him access to witness to the Jews.
How have you missed this point? It is the legalism of the Jews that would be bothered about this as see a contradiction.
Now the James passage seems to contradict the rest of the NT message of salvation through Christ alone so it was one of the last books to be accepted as authorative because it needed more careful examination. By the 3[sup]rd[/sup] century Christians. Christianity is what it is today, many liberals and revisionists call their views Christian but what has been defined as Christianity through the ages rules their revisionism as not Christian. They should be calling it something else
Possibly. . . but there's the "holistic context", as you put it, to consider and it's overwhelmingly sides with the other scriptural accounts.
Except to most Christians it doesn’t, to most there is no contradiction.

I could care less what "liberal scholars" say. My views politically and scripturally are hardly "liberal". We all have subjective opinions, why should NT writers be any different?
which is just your opinion. Don’t say ‘so you say’ when I am referring to what the Bible says or you do what liberal scholars do.

Your question is nonsense. It is based on you not taking every solitary word and for some reason choosing Paul’s epistles. How can Christians like me take every solitary word if we totally ignore his writings requiring women wearing veils etc? That would mean we don’t take every solitary word. But we take every word in context, both in the passages and holistically.

The dilemma with this issue is there seems to be a conflict with what the Corinthians epistle says as opposed to the Romans epistle, unless in this case the prohibition only applies to the Corinthian church, perhaps because the women were in error there and causing problems.

Nonsense! "Perhaps"?
How not so? How can Christians like me take every solitary word if we totally ignore his writings requiring women wearing veils etc? That would mean we don’t take every solitary word.


The question at hand is: Is every creature and plant to be considered "food"? Would you eat toadstools?
The NT teaching of Jesus says all food is clean, your point doesnt change that, if toadstools were ever food and prohibited under the OT they would be now no longer prohibited. As they dont seem to have been then its a straw man.

Your remarks was pork, which was prohibited food and is now no longer although people may choose not to continue to abstain.
Snakes, shellfish, predators and scavengers (as well as pigs) are not to be considered "food". You can search the Bible till Kingdom come and you’ll NEVER find any faithful OT believer or Christ or any of his NT disciples ingesting pork or any other "unclean" beast.
I can point you to Acts 10 and 11 which describes saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles and birds. 7 Then I heard a voice telling me, ‘Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.’ 8 "I replied, ‘Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’

9 "The voice spoke from heaven a second time, ‘Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.
There’s an interesting thread where the subject of clean/unclean food is discussed in greater detail. However, it does reflect on two variant gospel renditions being preached today.
So we now know we can avoid that as irrelevant and incorrect.
 

Alter2Ego

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When you read the Bible , it is obvious that the letters of Paul are not the same message as the message that Christ sends us, that is, if we assume that we are to emulate Christ.

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, 'Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'? [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]When Jesus heard this, he said, 'Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do.' (Matthew 9:11-12)[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Paul the Apostle says[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. (Cor. 5:9-11)[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Are we to assume that these brothers who are immoral are to be outcasts in the mind of Paul but for Jesus it is exactly these same people who NEED Christ's love. And doesn't Paul's Christianity assume a Judgemental and holier-than-thou point of view that "I, who am not [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler are outcasting YOU, brother , and I shall not eat with you." ??? [/background]
ALTER2EGO -to- QRSNER:
Paul was a slave for Christ and would not have been permitted to write under inspiration of God had he presented a different message from his leader, Jesus Christ. You are ignoring the context—the surrounding words, verses, or chapters—from where you are quoting him. Notice the words in your post that I bolded.

Paul's instructions about cutting off contact with immoral people applied specifically to those considered fellow Christians who knew better. They were supposed to have cleaned up their act once they learned scriptural truths. They must have done so at some point for them to have then been allowed to be baptized as evidence they'd put immorality behind them. Then at some point, they reverted back to their former worldly behavior, except now, they were held to a higher standard than those still in the world who never learned spiritual truths. The apostle Peter expressed the same sentiment as did Paul.

"{20} Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final conditions have become worse for them than the first. {21} For it would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. {22} The saying of the true proverb has happened to them: "The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire." " (2 Peter 2:20-22)


Someone calling him or herself a Christian by lip service while knowingly violating God's moral laws is practicing deliberate sin. Recall that Jesus Christ condemned the Jewish religious leaders—the Pharisees—for likewise violating God's laws. The Pharisees were well versed in the scriptures and had no excuse for the wrongdoings they committed. Jesus called them out on it and accused them of being hypocrites and a few other choice words. So as you can see, Paul's message was no different than Jesus' message.
 
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[sup]QRSNER, [/sup]

When you read the Bible , it is obvious that the letters of Paul are not the same message as the message that Christ sends us, that is, if we assume that we are to emulate Christ.

On the contrary for believers at least, it obviously is. Very obviously the same.
 

revturmoil

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When you read the Bible , it is obvious that the letters of Paul are not the same message as the message that Christ sends us, that is, if we assume that we are to emulate Christ.

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, 'Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'? [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]When Jesus heard this, he said, 'Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do.' (Matthew 9:11-12)[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Paul the Apostle says[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. (Cor. 5:9-11)[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Are we to assume that these brothers who are immoral are to be outcasts in the mind of Paul but for Jesus it is exactly these same people who NEED Christ's love. And doesn't Paul's Christianity assume a Judgemental and holier-than-thou point of view that "I, who am not [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler are outcasting YOU, brother , and I shall not eat with you." ??? [/background]

If you disregard the context of these passages you will easily be misled.
In Mt. 9 Jesus had just called Mathew, who was viewed by others as being a sinner and tax collector AND... some curious sinners and publicans came to visit them as they ate together at Mathew's house.
In 1 Cor 9 there is fornication in the Corinthian church.
In the culture of the time it was a very significant thing to eat with people. Eating together was like "being one." you were like 'brothers.' You know, put a bowl in the middle of the table and pass a loaf of bread around, break off a piece, and all dip from the same bowl.
So you would never want to be seen eating with someone unless you wanted to be identified with that person. And that's why people were surprised to see Jesus eating with sinners and publicans at Mathews house in Mt. 9.
In 1 Cor 9 the context is all different. The message from Paul is directed to the church which has several issues with sexual immorality in it. Paul emphasizes "not to keep company with BROTHERS who are....fornicators, the covetous, extortioners...etc. The message is that just a little leaven 'leaveneth' the whole lump.

the word COMPANY means...
1)
to mix up together
2)
to keep company with, be intimate with one
....with the ones (sinners) mentioned in the text.

The context between Mt. 9 where Jesus was invited to Mathews house and 1 Cor. 5 where Paul is addressing sexual immorality in the church is all different.
1 Corinthians 5:11  But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
To eat or fellowship with people who are called 'brothers' but are actually sinners reflects bad upon Christians and the entire church can be corrupted by it.

Corinthians 5:13  But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Guilty 'by association!'
In Mathew 9 Jesus didn't go to the temple or a churh and his message wasn't directed toward "brothers in the church!" He was a guest in Mathew's house! He wasn't in a tavern or in a heathen place. He went to Mathews house who was a collector of 'imports and just converted to Christ! The 'sinners' come to him!
Matthew 9:10  And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11  And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Jesus is the good doctor. The publicans and sinners visited him. Jesus didn't keep company with them and He would have never been led astray by association.Matthew 9:13  But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Paul's message is...1 Corinthians 5:11  But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.


Jesus message is...Matthew 9:12  But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13  But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Paul's message is for Christians to avoid fellowship with sinners and is especially directed to those in the church. Jesus message of the great Physician is directed more toward sinners outside the church.


 
 

richard79408

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Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Jesus during His earthly ministry did not bring the message of the coming kingdom of God to the Gentiles.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

When we can add "learning to study the scriptures by Covenants" then there is a difference between Paul and Jesus--but that difference is easy to identify.

In matt 15:24--we learn that Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. From this we also learn that Israel is as lost and as doomed as the Gentiles.

Jesus in the gospels up to the cross in each of the gospels never directed His teachings toward the Gentiles.

We do note that some Gentiles had a great faith and in Matt 15:24 the woman's daughter was healed. In understanding that we also undestand that His message was not to her or anyone not a Jew at the time.

Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. ......
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


It is pretty clear that the mission of Jesus was pointed at that last generation of Israel.

If you want to learn more about covenants you can begin here
http://rgfheart.com/cov/1

Jesus directed His message to a specific audience--who were lost.

Paul directed his message to both Jew and Gentile and then just the Gentiles--all whom were lost.
and, yes, Paul got his orders from Jesus and taught what the othe apostles taught the world about the need for a savior and how to be saved.

Paul, in writing his letters wrote to folks who have been converted to Christianity and how to live as Christians.
Richard79408
 
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QRSNER,
[background=rgb(249,253,255)]Are we to assume that these brothers who are immoral are to be outcasts in the mind of Paul but for Jesus it is exactly these same people who NEED Christ's love[/background]
This is 100% wrong and a good example of deception and false teaching in the church.
Firstly Paul preached what he received from the risen Lord. This deception is unwilling to accept that.
Secondly, if you want to try and demonstrate discrepancies then in this instance you will see in Matthew 18 Jesus teaches that if a brother or sister sins, [sup]"[/sup] and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."
So the epistle is only affirming what Jesus taught as claimed.

Now the teaching of Christ, whether recorded by the gospel or epsitle writers is to love even enemies, so even the pagan is loved. But the one who calls themselves a brother/sister but is believing wilful sin is not sin, doesnt yet know the love of Christ which includes the knowledge of freedom and redemption from sin. So yes they need Christ's love but they wont get it in deception thinking they already have it as part of the church.
 

Episkopos

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If Paul or anyone doesn't teach the gospel of Christ then they are not His. Paul is very misunderstood by people who think they actually get what he is speaking about. "Easy" they say..but even the apostles thought that Paul was dificult to understand sometimes. So do we have men that are wiser than the apostles in our time? Or more deceived?
 
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If Paul or anyone doesn't teach the gospel of Christ then they are not His.

No one has suggested that the epistles of Paul do not teach the gospel, only that they are/were specifically directed to Gentiles rather than Israelite Christians. In order to make the gospel more evangelically appealing, Paul purposely de-emphasized the role of God's Law to his largely non-Israelite scripturally illiterate audiences. However, such Pauline liberties in regards to the Law should not be interpreted as a license to reject the entirety of God's commandments (as is so prevalent today).

Another puzzling anomaly are those believers who proudly state that every solitary liberal statement Paul wrote concerning God's Law is the indisputable final Word of God on the matter, so blithely dismiss the same apostle's commandments regarding women being silent in church and his commands for them to wear veils when praying.



Paul is very misunderstood by people who think they actually get what he is speaking about. "Easy" they say..but even the apostles thought that Paul was difficult to understand sometimes. So do we have men that are wiser than the apostles in our time? Or more deceived?

In case you haven't noticed, the vast majority of posters on this forum claim to know just about everything there is to know about the scriptures. Though knowledge apparently runs rampant, humility is a virtue in short supply. . .