Interesting post, williemac! Here is my reply
I will not speak for another, but want to challange some things on this reply. First, what about Rom.10:9,10? No one is saying that we save ourselves by believing. But the bible says that if we believe the gospel, we will be saved. Is this my own understanding? The bible also exhorts us to get understanding. I will agree on this second part that more than simply believeing the right things is required. However, this is where we depart. Jesus said in Luke 18:10-14, that those who humble themselves will be exalted and justified. As well, James confirmed this by stating that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Here is the truth; We are not saved by our own goodness, but rather by God's goodness. In Rom.5:15-18, the word "gift" is found at least five times, and "free gift" is used (NKJ) three of those times. It is a mistake to think that God would require anything more than our acceptance of the gift, for salvation.
I agree wholly with this in that it is a gift, yes! It is by the Lord's mercy, and there is no work which brings us to this place... But we do enter by faith. Where I am opposed to what Richard teaches is at this point; what do we enter?
The conclusion of what he teaches is that we enter a protected state where we live just as we did before (other than the efforts we might chose to do to be better) and yet are saved, and God overlooks our sins.
But the kingdom is in power, and those who enter it live in this power which is in Christ. They do not sin anymore, as long as they abide. They were crucified with Christ, and now it is no longer they who live, but Christ who lives through them. Does Christ sin? No, thus when he lives through a man, that man does not sin either.
It is not of his works or of his power, but rather by the power of Christ he now does the works of the Father.
The difference? Huge! On the one hand, a gospel without power in this earth, one that can only save us for the next but is powerless NOW to conform us to Christ, on the other a gospel that is meant to bring heaven to earth, where we already are seated in heavenly places and already walking in the life of Christ. One requires a type of belief that declares itself saved, the other requires us to believe that with God all things are possible, and that God can indeed do all things. One is a cop-out to hide unbelief in the power of God NOW (faith). The other is one that believes we can indeed take the land, and God will give it into our hands if we advance by faith.
Giants in the land? Sin in our nature? Is God only able to make us overcome one and weak as for the other, or is he truly all powerful?? I let you choose.
The bible also give a solution to this dilema. It is called the remission of sin. But what has it been removed from? His record. His promise is " their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more".
2 Peter 1:9
For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Being cleansed from our old sins is not the end of the race, but only the beginning. After this we are to enter the life of Christ and walk as he walked, and also grow in his character. Otherwise we have a powerless gospel as to our current walk on earth once again.
Under the old covenant, the blood of bulls and goats kept them in good standing with God. They sinned over and over and were covered by the blood of animals. Now, are saved by the blood of Jesus. Is His sacrifice inferior to the old ones or superior? If superior, then how is it that His blood cannot do the same for us as that of animals? In 1John 2:1, he exhorts them to not sin, but then assures them that if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, namely Jesus Christ the righteous. I have no problem hearing any exhortation from a brother to walk as Jesus walked and do not sin. However, when a person attaches our salvation to this, then we have a major conflict with scripture.
Exactly! In the past, they had to offer sacrifices every year... But what Christ has done is far greater, not only has he made forgiveness available, but he has also made available power unto sanctification. If we walk in the Spirit we will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh. To confuse salvation with this is to miss the point... We do not decide who will be saved, that is for God to know, but we call men to the full stature of Christ.
Some 100, some, 60, some 30 (Math.13:23). There is no demand for perfection.
I do agree that perfection is not the requirement of salvation. But what it IS is the calling we have in Christ Jesus. We are called to be as he is. I do not judge a man for not attaining this, I would be judging myself, but this is the standard of Christ. The issue is not with saying 'I have not yet attained', that is a humble statement, the issue is with the unbelief that men cover up by saying 'God cannot (or will not) do that'. It is like saying 'We cannot take the Land' and saying 'God would not command us to do that'. It is a lie! We are not called just to salvation, but holiness, and if we will claim to know Christ,
then because of our claim we should acknowledge at least what the calling is, and strive to attain it.
If we want to speak in absolutes, then certainly this is true. However, who are we to judge another man's servant? The judgment seat of Christ will reveal the kind of fruit we bore, and our works will be tested by fire. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, " but he himself will be saved, yet as through fire" (1Cor.3:12-15). Certainly preach responsiblity, but again, attach salvation to this and you are in error.
I do agree, but as I said, this is not about salvation.
This is about the truth. Think about it,
if indeed we are called to be just as Christ, and God has made a way, and has made the power available, and this is what, above all other things, is most important then the man who claims this to be possible is not only living in unbelief but also teaching unbelief.
We were not called to be 'saved, yet as through the fire', but to be conformed unto Christ, and to live in glory and victory with Christ. I am not interested in judging any man here; the race is not over!
I am interested in exalting the truth, so that all that would believe could hear and enter in to be partakers of Christ.
Believe what? According to whose understanding? Do we walk in perfection 24/7, 365 days of the year? Hardly. No matter how successful our walk is , we are not saved by that, but will ever be dependant upon the sacrifice for sin, His mercy, and His grace. Everyone can have a bad day or a bad moment. Even Paul attested to this in Rom.7. Let us remain humble in our walk, and not compare ourselves with one another, especially for the purpose of determining another's fate.
We were/are not saved by works of law. Another way of saying this is that we were/are not saved by behaving ourselves. We therefore do not keep our salvation by these things either. If so, this would also be a cop out concerning the message of the gospel. Again, read Rom.10:9,10, and tell us how this is not true. The only responsibility we have concerning salvation is to humbly accept that which we did not earn or deserve. Our responsibility to behave ourselves is not connected with salvation. If so, we would be saved by works and much of Paul's teaching would be a lie.
Blessings in Him, Howie
See, I wholeheartedly agree with what you say... We need to remain humble. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you misunderstand the purpose of what I say (you said that we should '
not compare ourselves with one another, especially for the purpose of determining another's fate.'), I am not trying to determine anyones fate, that is not my job, but God's! But I am trying to bring men to the truth and expose the lies.
We should remain humble, and we do fail... But the problem arises when we deny the possibility of a miraculous walk and we deny that we can be fully conformed to Christ. We should be merciful to those who fall, but we should also preach the truth, that if we know him and walk in the Spirit, he gives us power to overcome ALL things.
It is dangerous to confuse those two. There is a great difference between the man who has faith but admits he is not there yet, and the man who denies that there is a power available to bring us there.
The first one has faith, but is not fully trained yet, the other one is like the spies who did not believe they could take the land, even though God commanded them to. Some will hide their unbelief under the guile of humility! ...or any other guile they can find.
Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect* shall be as his master.
G2675 katartizō
From G2596 and a derivative of G739; to complete thoroughly, that is, repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust: -
fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect (-ly join together), prepare, restore.
Do we believe Christ when he proclaims this? Or is he powerless to make his word true?
