A closer look at "baptizo" (to baptize)

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neophyte

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When were the Apostles baptized in water?

When were the apostles baptized in The Holy Spirit?


These were two separate times, over 3 years apart.

So the pattern of being baptized in water and with The Holy Spirit at the same time as Jesus was, it not the case with the disciples nor was it the case with anyone else in the New Testament.

I have given you examples of this, using the scriptures, that baptism in water and baptism in The Holy Spirit are two separate baptism's.

Jesus himself told His disciples that the baptism of John in water was not the only baptism for them -
...for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." Acts 1:5

If you refuse to believe Jesus, then I don't think anything I say will convince you.


JLB


Johns baptising of Jesus was just a ritual washing. It was not the Christian sacrament of baptism that occurred after Jesus left us- In the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Baptism was "fulfilled by Jesus" per se, because the true sacrament of Christian/Catholic baptism never existed before Christ.
 

Selene

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Johns baptising of Jesus was just a ritual washing. It was not the Christian sacrament of baptism that occurred after Jesus left us- In the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Baptism was "fulfilled by Jesus" per se, because the true sacrament of Christian/Catholic baptism never existed before Christ.

Hello Neophyte,

John's baptising of Jesus was NOT just a ritual washing. It was much more than that according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

CCC #536 The baptism of Jesus is on his part the acceptance and inauguration of his mission as God's suffering Servant. He allows himself to be numbered among sinners; he is already "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world".[sup]232[/sup] Already he is anticipating the "baptism" of his bloody death.[sup]233[/sup] Already he is coming to "fulfill all righteousness", that is, he is submitting himself entirely to his Father's will: out of love he consents to this baptism of death for the remission of our sins.[sup]234[/sup] The Father's voice responds to the Son's acceptance, proclaiming his entire delight in his Son.[sup]235[/sup] The Spirit whom Jesus possessed in fullness from his conception comes to "rest on him".[sup]236[/sup] Jesus will be the source of the Spirit for all mankind. At his baptism "the heavens were opened"[sup]237[/sup] - the heavens that Adam's sin had closed - and the waters were sanctified by the descent of Jesus and the Spirit, a prelude to the new creation.

CCC #537 Through Baptism the Christian is sacramentally assimilated to Jesus, who in his own baptism anticipates his death and resurrection. The Christian must enter into this mystery of humble self-abasement and repentance, go down into the water with Jesus in order to rise with him, be reborn of water and the Spirit so as to become the Father's beloved son in the Son and "walk in newness of life":[sup]238[/sup]
Let us be buried with Christ by Baptism to rise with him; let us go down with him to be raised with him; and let us rise with him to be glorified with him.[sup]239[/sup]
Everything that happened to Christ lets us know that, after the bath of water, the Holy Spirit swoops down upon us from high heaven and that, adopted by the Father's voice, we become sons of God.[sup]240[/sup]
 

neophyte

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Apr 25, 2012
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Hello Neophyte,

John's baptising of Jesus was NOT just a ritual washing. It was much more than that according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

CCC #536 The baptism of Jesus is on his part the acceptance and inauguration of his mission as God's suffering Servant. He allows himself to be numbered among sinners; he is already "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world".[sup]232[/sup] Already he is anticipating the "baptism" of his bloody death.[sup]233[/sup] Already he is coming to "fulfill all righteousness", that is, he is submitting himself entirely to his Father's will: out of love he consents to this baptism of death for the remission of our sins.[sup]234[/sup] The Father's voice responds to the Son's acceptance, proclaiming his entire delight in his Son.[sup]235[/sup] The Spirit whom Jesus possessed in fullness from his conception comes to "rest on him".[sup]236[/sup] Jesus will be the source of the Spirit for all mankind. At his baptism "the heavens were opened"[sup]237[/sup] - the heavens that Adam's sin had closed - and the waters were sanctified by the descent of Jesus and the Spirit, a prelude to the new creation.

CCC #537 Through Baptism the Christian is sacramentally assimilated to Jesus, who in his own baptism anticipates his death and resurrection. The Christian must enter into this mystery of humble self-abasement and repentance, go down into the water with Jesus in order to rise with him, be reborn of water and the Spirit so as to become the Father's beloved son in the Son and "walk in newness of life":[sup]238[/sup]
Let us be buried with Christ by Baptism to rise with him; let us go down with him to be raised with him; and let us rise with him to be glorified with him.[sup]239[/sup]
Everything that happened to Christ lets us know that, after the bath of water, the Holy Spirit swoops down upon us from high heaven and that, adopted by the Father's voice, we become sons of God.[sup]240[/sup]

Excellent Selene, thank you .
 

JLB

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Mar 25, 2012
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Hello JLB,

St. Paul said that there is only one baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,




This is still the same concept of a baptism of water and spirit. God hovered the Israelites as a pillar of cloud as they passed through the waters of the Red Sea.

Christ said that one must be born of water and spirit to enter the Kingdom of God. At the Jordan River, Christ was baptized with water and spirit. That is the baptism that we follow because it is Christ who sets the example. When Christ was immersed in the waters and rose from it, the Holy Spirit descended upon Him and God said, "This is my Son, whom I am well pleased." This is the baptism that Christ was speaking of - to be born of water and spirit. So, when we baptize with water, the Holy Spirit descends upon the person, and God said, "This is my son/daughter." Baptism brings us into God's family......water because it cleanses us from sin, making us holy; and spirit because we now belong to God as His child. A baptism like Christ where we are declared sons and daughters of God as we rise from the waters after burying our sins, we become new creatures in Christ living a newness of life (See Romans 6:4 and Col. 2:12).


St. Paul said that there is only one baptism.

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The scripture you used here clearly shows the Three members of The Godhead and these Three are one.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

By the same measure Acts 19 shows three baptism's and these three together are one (complete).

As Jesus said - ...Baptizing them in the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

Though They are Three distinct and different persons of The Godhead They are One!

Though there are Three distinct and different baptisms they are one!


JLB
 

Selene

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St. Paul said that there is only one baptism.

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The scripture you used here clearly shows the Three members of The Godhead and these Three are one.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

By the same measure Acts 19 shows three baptism's and these three together are one (complete).

As Jesus said - ...Baptizing them in the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

Though They are Three distinct and different persons of The Godhead They are One!

Though there are Three distinct and different baptisms they are one!


JLB

If that is your line of reasoning, does that also mean that there are three faiths, three bodies, and three spirits instead of one? Are we called to three hopes? St. Paul says, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling: one Lord, one faith, and one baptism." We believe that there are three persons in one God, but this belief does not mean that there are also three faiths, three baptisms, three bodies, or three spirits.
 

JLB

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Mar 25, 2012
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If that is your line of reasoning, does that also mean that there are three faiths, three bodies, and three spirits instead of one? Are we called to three hopes? St. Paul says, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling: one Lord, one faith, and one baptism." We believe that there are three persons in one God, but this belief does not mean that there are also three faiths, three baptisms, three bodies, or three spirits.


You have been shown three baptisms in Acts 19.

Please comment on the three baptisms of Acts 19. Don't try to change the subject.
 

John Zain

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These 2 verses show “the promise” refers to the Holy Spirit baptism.
”Behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of
Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” (Luke 24:49)
”… wait for the promise of the Father … you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
… you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;
and you shall be witnesses to Me … to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:4-8)

And these 2 verses show “the gift” also refers to the Holy Spirit baptism.
“… the Holy Spirit fell upon all those (Gentiles) who heard the word
the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
For they (Peter and his companions) heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter asked, ‘Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be
baptized (in water) who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?’
And he commanded them to be (water) baptized in the name of the Lord.“ (Acts 10:44-48)
“… the Holy Spirit fell upon them (the Gentiles), as upon us (the Jews) at the beginning.
Then I remember the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water,
but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ … God gave them the same gift
as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 11:15-17)

Now, concerning the Day of Pentecost
Acts 2:
[sup]1[/sup]When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
[sup]2 [/sup]And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind,
and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
[sup]3 [/sup]Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
[sup]4 [/sup]And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues,
as the Spirit gave them utterance.
-----
[sup]16 [/sup]But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
[sup]17 [/sup]‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams.
[sup]18 [/sup]And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
and they shall prophesy.
[sup]19 [/sup]I will show wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath: blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
[sup]20 [/sup]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
[sup]21 [/sup]And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
-----
[sup]33 [/sup]Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father
the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
-----
[sup]37 [/sup]Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles,
“Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
[sup]38 [/sup]Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[sup]39 [/sup]For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

Note:
Acts 2:17-18 … refers to pentecostals and charismatics in these last 100 years
Acts 2:21 … these powerful spiritual manifestations will result in many being saved
Acts 2:33 … “this” refers to what they all saw and heard on the Day of Pentecost
Acts 2:37 … the Jews asked what they should do to receive the same pentecostal experience
Acts 2:38-39 … this Holy Spirit baptism was for them then, and for whomever the Lord chose later

Evidently, in those days, salvation and the Holy Spirit baptism were given somewhat differently than today,
i.e. it appears that Peter expected believers to receive both simultaneously!
 

Selene

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You have been shown three baptisms in Acts 19.

Please comment on the three baptisms of Acts 19. Don't try to change the subject.

I"m not changing the subject. I told you that St. Paul clearly stated that there is only one baptism. However, according to you, you implied that because there are three persons in one God, you assume that there are also three baptism rather than one baptism as stated in Ephesians 4:5. So, the question I ask you is.....does this also mean that there are three faiths, three bodies, three spirits, and three hopes in that same biblical verse Ephesians 4:5?
 

JLB

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I"m not changing the subject. I told you that St. Paul clearly stated that there is only one baptism. However, according to you, you implied that because there are three persons in one God, you assume that there are also three baptism rather than one baptism as stated in Ephesians 4:5. So, the question I ask you is.....does this also mean that there are three faiths, three bodies, three spirits, and three hopes in that same biblical verse Ephesians 4:5?


St Paul taught and lived that there are three baptisms.


1 Corinthians 10:2

all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,


Acts 19:4-6

Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

1. John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance

2. - they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

3. - the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues


Jesus said - ... Baptizing them in the Name of The Father, The Son and of The Holy Spirit.



Three not one. You just simply misunderstand what Paul wrote.


JLB
 

Selene

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St Paul taught and lived that there are three baptisms.


1 Corinthians 10:2

all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,


Acts 19:4-6

Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

1. John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance

2. - they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

3. - the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues


Jesus said - ... Baptizing them in the Name of The Father, The Son and of The Holy Spirit.



Three not one. You just simply misunderstand what Paul wrote.


JLB

St. Paul wrote "one baptism." If there were indeed three baptism, he would have written the word "three." Let me ask you this....how many times was Jesus baptize in the Jordan River? Was He not baptized only once with BOTH water and spirit? It seems to me that Jesus' baptism was taking place at one event and as the same time simultaneously.

How many times were the Israelites baptized as they crossed the Red Sea with the cloud over them? Was it not only once with BOTH water and spirit? Were not all these taking place as one event simultaneously?

Yes, Jesus told His Apostles to baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but this is not three baptism. In fact, Jesus does not even mention three baptism. He does not say to baptize three times in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Apostles went out and baptized with water and spirit.

We understand that there is only one baptism - a baptism of both water and spirit. When we come to understand this, then we understand the words Jesus was saying to Nicodemus. One must be born of water and spirit to enter the Kingdom of God. He was saying that one must be baptized. Baptism is necessary.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
 

JLB

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St. Paul wrote "one baptism." If there were indeed three baptism, he would have written "three." Let me ask you this....how many times was Jesus baptize in the Jordan River? Was He not baptized only once with both water and spirit?

How many times were the Israelites baptized as they crossed the Red Sea? Was it not only once with both water and spirit? Were not all these taking place as one event?


No, It was three distinct events. Into Moses, the cloud and the sea.


John's Baptism was a baptism of repentance, saying believe on Him who is to come after me.

1. What did Jesus need to repent of?

2. Jesus was the One to come after John.


Conclusion - Jesus' baptism was the exception not the rule!

The example for us to follow is that:

Baptism is a part of the new testament church.

Baptism in water and The baptism of The Holy Spirit are different baptisms, as Jesus said.

The examples as shown throughout the book of acts.



Does your church teach the baptism of The Holy Spirit?

The bible does.


JLB
 

Selene

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No, It was three distinct events. Into Moses, the cloud and the sea.


John's Baptism was a baptism of repentance, saying believe on Him who is to come after me.

1. What did Jesus need to repent of?

2. Jesus was the One to come after John.


Conclusion - Jesus' baptism was the exception not the rule!

Jesus' baptism was the exception AND the rule to follow because Jesus is the WAY, the Truth, and the Life. We follow Christ. We do not follow St. John the Baptist because he only baptized with water. Sacred Scripture shows that those who followed St. John the Baptist needed to receive the Holy Spirit, which they never got by St. John the Baptist. So, Jesus' baptism is the rule to follow because His was a baptism of both water and spirit.



The example for us to follow is that:

Baptism is a part of the new testament church.

Baptism in water and The baptism of The Holy Spirit are different baptisms, as Jesus said.

The examples as shown throughout the book of acts.

Jesus never said that baptism of water and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are different baptism. Jesus was baptized only once at the Jordan River and He was baptized with both water and spirit.


Does your church teach the baptism of The Holy Spirit?

The bible does.


JLB

My Church teaches that there is only one baptism (just as St. Paul says), and we baptize with both water and spirit in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. When we baptize with water, the Holy Spirit descends upon him/her, and God declares "this is my son/daughter". It is the same baptism that Jesus went through that we follow.
 

John Zain

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The Holy Spirit has baptized us into one body (the church) ... Praise God!
But, Jesus baptizes some Christians with the Holy Spirit ... Praise God!
Two different things entirely.

I have 7 verses saying the Holy Spirit is INSIDE believers.
I have 7 verses saying the Holy Spirit comes UPON believers when receiving the HS baptism.
But, most Christians believe all 14 verses refer to salvation!

7 verses omit the INSIDE placement.
7 verses omit the UPON placement.

IMO, the precious and mighty Holy Spirit does NOT need to
come UPON people before venturing INSIDE them!

Or, perhaps I misjudge Him ... perhaps He's a tad shy, and prefers to go in sloooowly.
I asketh thou, does this make any sense to you?

P.S. Does anyone need verses for all of this?
P.S. Does anyone understand any of this?
 

JLB

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Jesus' baptism was the exception AND the rule to follow because Jesus is the WAY, the Truth, and the Life. We follow Christ. We do not follow St. John the Baptist because he only baptized with water. Sacred Scripture shows that those who followed St. John the Baptist needed to receive the Holy Spirit, which they never got by St. John the Baptist. So, Jesus' baptism is the rule to follow because His was a baptism of both water and spirit.





Jesus never said that baptism of water and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are different baptism. Jesus was baptized only once at the Jordan River and He was baptized with both water and spirit.




My Church teaches that there is only one baptism (just as St. Paul says), and we baptize with both water and spirit in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. When we baptize with water, the Holy Spirit descends upon him/her, and God declares "this is my son/daughter". It is the same baptism that Jesus went through that we follow.


Do people in your church speak in tongues?





You have a choice to believe the words of The Bible or the words of your denominational preacher.

In this case, you can not do both.

John 4:1-2

1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples),

JESUS DID NOT BAPTIZE ANYONE WITH WATER!


Matthew 3:11

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


Mark 1:8

I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Luke 3:16

John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


John 1:33

I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all record and say the same thing.



Jesus Himself said - Acts 1:4-5

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."


Acts 2:1-4

1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


All who were in the house were, as Jesus promised baptized in The Holy Spirit and spoke with other tongues. No water baptism. They had already been baptized with water several years earlier.


Acts 8:14-17

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

No water baptism!



Acts 10:44-47

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"


Water baptism done after the baptism of The Holy Spirit. Clearly not at the same time.



Do people come up out of the water speaking in tongues at your church, if they do, Praise God.

However, based on our conversation I don't feel that's the case.

Does your church tradition make the Word of God of no effect?


JLB
 

neophyte

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Apr 25, 2012
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Do people in your church speak in tongues?





You have a choice to believe the words of The Bible or the words of your denominational preacher.

In this case, you can not do both.

John 4:1-2

1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples),

JESUS DID NOT BAPTIZE ANYONE WITH WATER!


Matthew 3:11

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


Mark 1:8

I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Luke 3:16

John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


John 1:33

I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all record and say the same thing.



Jesus Himself said - Acts 1:4-5

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."


Acts 2:1-4

1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


All who were in the house were, as Jesus promised baptized in The Holy Spirit and spoke with other tongues. No water baptism. They had already been baptized with water several years earlier.


Acts 8:14-17

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

No water baptism!



Acts 10:44-47

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"


Water baptism done after the baptism of The Holy Spirit. Clearly not at the same time.



Do people come up out of the water speaking in tongues at your church, if they do, Praise God.

However, based on our conversation I don't feel that's the case.

Does your church tradition make the Word of God of no effect?


JLB

The early Christians all recognized the Bible’s teaching that "[In the ark] a few, that is, eight persons, were' saved through" water," Baptism' which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20–21, { Water was always used ]
 

Selene

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You have a choice to believe the words of The Bible or the words of your denominational preacher.

In this case, you can not do both.


Actually, the Bible says to obey your Church leaders. So, we follow the Bible.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.



John 4:1-2

1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples),

JESUS DID NOT BAPTIZE ANYONE WITH WATER!

That is true. Jesus did not baptize anyone with water. BUT He DID allow His disciples to continue baptizing people with water. The FACT that He allowed His disciples to continue baptizing with water.....is the reason we continue to baptize with water to this day. He is, afterall, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

John 4:1-2 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

As you can see, Jesus continued to allow the practice of water baptism even after St. John the Baptist had died. Baptism was not an invention of man. It was ordered by God Himself, and Jesus allowed His disciples to continue baptism. Because God never rescinded baptism, we continue it to this day. In other words, we follow what God has ordered because no where in the Bible did it say that God got rid of baptizing with water.




Matthew 3:11

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


Mark 1:8

I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Luke 3:16

John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


John 1:33

I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all record and say the same thing.



Jesus Himself said - Acts 1:4-5

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."


Acts 2:1-4

1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


All who were in the house were, as Jesus promised baptized in The Holy Spirit and spoke with other tongues. No water baptism. They had already been baptized with water several years earlier.


Acts 8:14-17

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

No water baptism!



Acts 10:44-47

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"


Water baptism done after the baptism of The Holy Spirit. Clearly not at the same time.



Do people come up out of the water speaking in tongues at your church, if they do, Praise God.

However, based on our conversation I don't feel that's the case.

Does your church tradition make the Word of God of no effect?


JLB

AFTER Pentecost, the Apostles CONTINUED to baptize with BOTH water and spirit. Water baptism was ordered by God, and God never got rid of it. So we follow it because God never took away water baptism. The Apostles continued to baptize with water after Pentecost. See the following scriptures below regarding the Apostles baptizing with water even AFTER Pentecost:

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Furthermore, Christ Himself was baptized with both WATER and SPIRIT. So, we follow His example. Why should we follow your example? We follow Christ's example because we are followers of Christ. I already showed you through Scripture that water baptism was ordered by God, not by man. And I have shown you through Scripture that the Apostles continued to use water for baptism even AFTER Pentecost. I don't know who told you that there is no longer any water baptism....but that person is incorrect and is going against the Bible.
 

John Zain

Newbie trainee
Sep 16, 2010
750
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San Diego, CA
Christ Himself was baptized with both WATER and SPIRIT.
So, we follow His example. We follow Christ's example because we are followers of Christ.
Water baptism was ordered by God, not by man.
The Apostles continued to use water for baptism even AFTER Pentecost.

I cannot see how anyone could disagree with all of the above.

I see 4 obvious and distinct New Testament baptisms ...

(1) -- Baptism into the church (salvation) --- the Holy Spirit is the baptiser
The Holy Spirit takes up residence INSIDE the believer … John 14:16-23; Romans 8:11;
1 Corinthians 3:16; Galatians 4:6; 2 Timothy 1:14; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:12-16
.


(2) -- Baptism in water (symbolic demonstration of faith) --- man is the baptiser
Paul said, “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:17).
Scripture says we are justified by faith alone, not by works (Romans 4:1-8, Ephesians 2:8-9).

(3) -- Baptism with the Holy Spirit (mostly power for ministry) --- Jesus is the baptiser
“He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” (Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16)
The baptism with the Holy Spirit comes after being born again (or at the same time).
The Holy Spirit comes UPON the believer.
14 Scripture passages directly LINK the following gifts and events with this baptism:
the promise, the gift, upon, laying on of hands, filled with the Holy Spirit,
received the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, power, boldness, miracles.


(4) -- Baptism with fire (extreme suffering for the gospel’s sake) --- Jesus is the baptiser
“He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” (Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16)
Jesus asks His 12 disciples if they are able and willing to be martyrs after Him …
“Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the
baptism that I am baptized with? … You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized
with the baptism that I am baptized with …” (Matthew 20:22-23, Mark 10:38-39)


All of the baptisms are glorious blessings, even the baptism with fire:
“Blessed are those who are persected for righteousness sake” (Matthew 5:10).
.
 

JLB

Member
Mar 25, 2012
334
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Actually, the Bible says to obey your Church leaders. So, we follow the Bible.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.





That is true. Jesus did not baptize anyone with water. BUT He DID allow His disciples to continue baptizing people with water. The FACT that He allowed His disciples to continue baptizing with water.....is the reason we continue to baptize with water to this day. He is, afterall, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

John 4:1-2 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

As you can see, Jesus continued to allow the practice of water baptism even after St. John the Baptist had died. Baptism was not an invention of man. It was ordered by God Himself, and Jesus allowed His disciples to continue baptism. Because God never rescinded baptism, we continue it to this day. In other words, we follow what God has ordered because no where in the Bible did it say that God got rid of baptizing with water.






AFTER Pentecost, the Apostles CONTINUED to baptize with BOTH water and spirit. Water baptism was ordered by God, and God never got rid of it. So we follow it because God never took away water baptism. The Apostles continued to baptize with water after Pentecost. See the following scriptures below regarding the Apostles baptizing with water even AFTER Pentecost:

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Furthermore, Christ Himself was baptized with both WATER and SPIRIT. So, we follow His example. Why should we follow your example? We follow Christ's example because we are followers of Christ. I already showed you through Scripture that water baptism was ordered by God, not by man. And I have shown you through Scripture that the Apostles continued to use water for baptism even AFTER Pentecost. I don't know who told you that there is no longer any water baptism....but that person is incorrect and is going against the Bible.


I am sorry you continually ignore the many, many scriptures that show the New Testament pattern of Baptism.

You have chosen your own way, so be it.


Thanks, JLB
 

neophyte

Member
Apr 25, 2012
669
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I am sorry you continually ignore the many, many scriptures that show the New Testament pattern of Baptism.

You have chosen your own way, so be it.


Thanks, JLB

JLB, I also have bible verses that support ''water baptism", if you base your understanding on your bible verses why do you reject/ignore the bible verses that Selene and I have produced in support of" water baptism" ? Here are some more verses in support of -
Born Again in Water Baptism
John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.
John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).
John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.
John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.
Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.
Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.
Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.
Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.
Heb. 10:22 – the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.
2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.
Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.