Faith without works is dead

RichardBurger · Aug 23, 2012

Axehead said:
Richard,

I have explained abiding in Christ in many threads. What would really be helpful for myself and I am sure others, would be if you could explain what "abiding in Christ" means to you.

Thanks in advance,
Axehead

Just like you I have explained what abiding in Christ means to me but I will say it again. I won't dodge the question as you do.

Abiding in Christ is keeping your belief, faith, trust and confidence in the work of Jesus (God) on the cross; in His shed blood that reconciles a person to God.

Doing this is the only way that God has provided for salvation in this age of grace.

That wasn't so hard was it? Only 30 words but 30 words you did not write.

But I am sure the religious will want to add that it is the works of man that makes the man abide in Christ. In other words they want to go back under the law.

dragonfly · Aug 23, 2012

Ah! Richard.....

But I am sure the religious will want to add that it is the works of man that makes the man abide in Christ. In other words they want to go back under the law.

Where is the scripture you use to back up your definition of 'abiding'?

Jesus' definition in John 15, is that being 'in Him' = 'abiding'.

From this restful place of being a grafted-in branch, fruit - of the Holy Spirit - is borne with no effort on the part of the branch, (except to yield it to the eater).

Are you really saying that when a fruit tree does what a fruit tree was created to do, it is 'working'? Isn't that a stretch?

I mean, can you stop it bearing fruit without the power of a drought (which you might find difficult to arrange with the Almighty)?

JohnnyB · Aug 23, 2012

RichardBurger said:
Just like you I have explained what abiding in Christ means to me but I will say it again. I won't dodge the question as you do.

Abiding in Christ is keeping your belief, faith, trust and confidence in the work of Jesus (God) on the cross; in His shed blood that reconciles a person to God.

Doing this is the only way that God has provided for salvation in this age of grace.

That wasn't so hard was it? Only 30 words but 30 words you did not write.

But I am sure the religious will want to add that it is the works of man that makes the man abide in Christ. In other words they want to go back under the law.

Your definition of abiding is one of superficial acquantance!

There is no mention of knowing Him, being transformed by Him, being One with Him, manifesting the Fruit thatwould be apparent if one is truly abiding in Him.

There is evidence in the life of the believer when they are abiding, one would be being led by His Spirit into all truth, obeying His commandments,and the awareness of a divine life- Jesus in me the hope of glory.

RichardBurger · Aug 23, 2012

JohnnyB said:
Your definition of abiding is one of superficial acquantance!

There is no mention of knowing Him, being transformed by Him, being One with Him, manifesting the Fruit thatwould be apparent if one is truly abiding in Him.

There is evidence in the life of the believer when they are abiding, one would be being led by His Spirit into all truth, obeying His commandments,and the awareness of a divine life- Jesus in me the hope of glory.

Sorry my definition does not meet with your approval but it is obvious that you wish to, as I said, add your works to it.

By the way, your definition of abiding is one of superficial acquantance. Because I don't see you mentioning that the child of God is a part of the body of Christ and that they are joint heirs with Him. Nor do I see this in Jesus' teachings or in the teachings of the 12 in Acts. As a mater of fact only in Paul's writing do we find the body of Christ mentioned. Prove me wrong!!!!

John 12:46-47
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe,
NKJV

The children of God believe.

John 8:35-36
35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.
36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
NKJV

We become children of God through faith in His work on the cross.

1 John 4:13-16
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
NKJV

Heb 10:39
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
NKJV

Heb 11:5-6
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
NKJV

Heb 11:30-31
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.
NKJV

God wants those that have faith in Him and He has made a plan of salvation that saves sinners and makes them righteous by imputing His righteousness to thei account.

But the religious will never accept this free gift because they feel they must do something (works) in order to obtain it.

JohnnyB · Aug 23, 2012

RichardBurger said:
Sorry my definition does not meet with your approval but it is obvious that you wish to, as I said, add your works to it.

By the way, your definition of abiding is one of superficial acquantance. Because I don't see you mentioning that the child of God is a part of the body of Christ and that they are joint heirs with Him. Nor do I see this in Jesus' teachings or in the teachings of the 12 in Acts. As a mater of fact only in Paul's writing do we find the body of Christ mentioned. Prove me wrong!!!!

I've said it before, all believers are the Body of Christ, the Church.

Abiding is DOING the Will of the Father.

Your faith is dead.

Your doctrine is death.

You are an unbeliever.

Axehead · Aug 23, 2012

RichardBurger said:
Just like you I have explained what abiding in Christ means to me but I will say it again. I won't dodge the question as you do.

Abiding in Christ is keeping your belief, faith, trust and confidence in the work of Jesus (God) on the cross; in His shed blood that reconciles a person to God.

Doing this is the only way that God has provided for salvation in this age of grace.

That wasn't so hard was it? Only 30 words but 30 words you did not write.

But I am sure the religious will want to add that it is the works of man that makes the man abide in Christ. In other words they want to go back under the law.

Tell me Richard, do you believe Obedience to Christ's words (commandments) are the "Works of Men"? I noticed in your 30 words that you conveniently omitted OBEDIENCE.

Doesn't ABIDING in JESUS, include OBEDIENCE?

Let me help you out:

John_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

To abide in His love, it looks like we must keep His commandments (not suggestions) and since they are commandments, then obedience on our part is implied.

Would you agree?

If Jesus stopped keeping His Father's commandments, would He have stopped abiding in His Father's love? Yes or No.

Thanks,
Axehead

dragonfly · Aug 23, 2012

Hi Richard,

As a mater of fact only in Paul's writing do we find the body of Christ mentioned. Prove me wrong!!!!

I do believe Christ referred to Himself as a 'body' of which we are parts. And I think it's great sorrow to the Lord that many sincere believers get side-tracked into forms of doctrine which create division in the Church. For instance, your belief that Jewish Christians are separated from Gentile Christians simply is not what the Bible says in many different ways. Please keep an open mind.

That is the whole point of Eph 2:12, 13, 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Ephesians 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles,

whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Before you tell me that you know there were Jews at Corinth, and that's why Paul could write that to them, but, that you think it cannot apply to the Ephesians, please come with me to Paul's first meeting with Ephsians in Acts 19.

Acts 19: '... Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, he said unto them,

Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

To the best of my knowledge, John had baptised only Israelites and Jews, but not Gentiles. Would you agree with that?

And, of Paul's letter to the church at Ephesus, can we accept, therefore, that some of the 'disciples' there, were not Gentiles?

Isn't this one of the reasons that he addresses the Gentile believers in particular - to reassure them they are now part of Israel - just as Peter does in his first epistle when writing to the 'strangers'. In chapter 2, he quotes what God said to Moses for Israel....

1 Peter 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;

that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Do you know that Peter is quoting something which was never said to Gentiles by God; it's what God said to Israel after He had declared them 'not His people' because of their adulteries? Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to [them which were] not my people, Thou [art] my people; and they shall say, [Thou art] my God.

Now, let's use a little bit of Paul's teaching to help us further along to understanding that there is only one body. (John 12:24)

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Rom 5:12, 8, 9, 10.

36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

So, if Jesus Christ is the Seed that fell into the ground and died (John 12:24) then the body which He is given is unique to Him.

Yes?

He has only one body. He Himself was of the tribe of Judah, but He died representing not only all Israelites, but all non-Israelites.

Another reason He has a unique 'body' personally, comes from 'only begotten' (Son), which means He was in a class of His own. And we know that as Immanuel (God with us), He was uniquely the Word made flesh, as John proclaims. (Rom 8:3)

Now look back at the start of Hosea 2:23 - I will sow her unto me in the earth ...' This is God putting Israel into Christ's death and burial. (Gen 50:2b)

But we know that the Gentiles are included, because of God's word to Eve, and to Abraham while Abraham was uncircumcised, which (to cut a long story short) Paul explains in Galatians 3:14 - That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Note: Paul says the blesing of Abraham came on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ for a reason - and that reason is that both Israelites and Gentiles might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

In other words, the salvation of Israelites is bound in the same bundle as the salvation of Gentiles - as Jesus said: John 10:16.

Therefore, knowing that Jesus died for all men, the body with which He was raised - the True Vine John 15 - is the same body which Paul describes as the 'body of Christ' in 1 Cor 12, the olive tree in Romans 11, and which Isaiah, Jeremiah and Zechariah all call 'the Branch' - the Branch being a reference to His human descent from Jesse. I think you would agree that Jesse had a body!

Do we really think that the Son of God could be described by only one picture - when John has said that if all He did was written down, the whole would could not contain the books? Don't we have to add all the pictures together, and know our perception still falls short of His glory?

Sabitarian · Aug 23, 2012

Let us start at the beginning, shall we? God did the works of providing us with this world and all of the additions to it, stars and planets and then He rested from all of His work, the first Sabbath. God clothed Adam and Eve in animal skins, the first animal sacrifice. Able made an acceptable offering to God, which was accepted, a prime example of works by faith in God. Cain did not make an acceptable offering and was rejected, a prime example of no faith in God. This long before there was a Hebrew on this earth, yet you still persist in saying all of this is for the Jews as it was only given to them. There were gentiles that came out of Egypt with the children of Israel and they kept the same laws as were given to Israel. There were many different peoples who attached themselves to Israel along the way, who also kept all of the same laws. These were gentiles also. God has many times stated the fact that all are to keep the same laws and that salvation comes through the Jews. The Prophesies of Revelation are almost complete and the Daughters of the Whore will face the same punishment, the Wrath of God poured out without mercy upon those who practice lawlessness.
One of the biggest problems encountered is not having a difference in the word for law in English. There are several spellings and different punctuations for the original words. Plus there are places where Paul uses different spellings with different punctuations all in the same sentence. Could there be different meanings to the different spellings with different punctuations? If there were no differences in any of these words, then why are they used? It would be like two, to and too, the same pronunciation, yet different meanings to all of them.
Now you want to tell me that Paul did not follow the Commandments of Christ as regiven to the Children of Israel in Exodus and Deuteronomy, that he did not do the works prescribed for him to do by Christ, that he expected faith to be all that was necessary for him to be granted salvation? Do you think that the beatings given to Paul were no because of his works on the part of Christ? If all that Paul need was Faith then after he was knocked off of his horse he did not need to do any more to be granted salvation. He knew for a fact who it was who did the deed and why it was done to him. He had all of the faith he need at that point and all of the trials were not necessary after that. I doubt that any of you have ever though about the beatings and the weapon used to do it, so just imagine a whip like weapon with 12 to 24 tails filled with nails and glass shards that cut clear to the bone on the rib cage. There were beaten with their back to the executioner but the tails whipped around to the chest doing the most damage there. If you do not call this works, than there is no hope for you.
Then there are the Disciples, have you ever thought about whom they were and what was there nationality? Take for instance Simon the Cannanite? Who was he and what was his skin color and nationality? Who was Luke the doctor and was he a Jew? He wrote one of the Books of The Bible and accompanied Paul on his journey, so who was he?
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

RichardBurger · Aug 24, 2012

Axehead said:
Tell me Richard, do you believe Obedience to Christ's words (commandments) are the "Works of Men"? I noticed in your 30 words that you conveniently omitted OBEDIENCE.

Doesn't ABIDING in JESUS, include OBEDIENCE?

Let me help you out:

John_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

To abide in His love, it looks like we must keep His commandments (not suggestions) and since they are commandments, then obedience on our part is implied.

Would you agree?

If Jesus stopped keeping His Father's commandments, would He have stopped abiding in His Father's love? Yes or No.

Thanks,
Axehead

Jesus and the 12 were under the law. Jesus taught the law. Jesus never said the Jews were not under the law when he was teaching them. But Jesus gave Paul a gospel of grace that was HIDDEN IN GOD and revealed to him. Under this HIDDEN IN GOD gospel a person is not saved by keeping the law. But you refuse to see it as a new gospel.

You are so blind. You want us to believe that obedience under grace is keeping the law and that is what you teach. You want us to go under law so that we can not be saved under grace. The scriptures where it says "if you go back under the law you have fallen from grace" applies to you and you want it to apply to everyone else. Fat chance!

Obedience under grace is doing as Paul taught; placing your belief, faith, trust, and confidence in His work on the cross to save you. I will add the following but I know you will not read it and understand.

Obedience to God:
*
The Obedience of Faith: (Obedient to the faith, Acts 6:7)
*
In the following study we will see what "obedience” really means under grace.
*
John 6:28-29, below, indicates that our work of faith is to believe in Jesus Christ.
*
John 6:28-29 (NKJV)
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
*
Acts 6:7, below, refers to some of the Jewish "priests as being obedient to the faith." Of course it means that they believed the gospel regarding Jesus being the Jewish Messiah and King.
*
Acts 6:7 (NKJ)
7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.
*
Romans 6:17, below, again is in reference to the belief of the Christians in Rome, both Jews and Gentiles by saying they "obeyed" the doctrine that Paul taught them; That doctrine concerning the dying of Jesus on the cross for our sins and His resurrection from the dead which confirmed that He (Jesus) was sent by God.
*
Rom 6:17 (NKJ)
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
*
Romans 11:30-32, below, describes the situation of the Jews as that of "disobedient" as were the Gentiles prior to believing the gospel. The KJV says they were "unbelieving." The words "unbelieving" and "disobedient" are chosen by different translators to represent the same Greek word.
*
Rom 11:30-32 (NKJ)
30 For as you (Gentiles) were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (the Jews) disobedience,
31 even so these (Jews) also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you (Gentiles) they (the Jews) also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all (Jews and Gentiles) to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
*
The above scriptures are a few of those that teach the obedience of faith is about faith in Christ (Faith in His work on the cross), rather than Decalogue (the ten commandments) observance.
*
Legalists think this is no problem. They simply reason that the Jews were disobedient because they retained the law ""without"" Christ. Legalists feel they have remedied this: they have retained the law ""with Christ.""
*
Thus legalists define faith as ""inclusive"" of the law, when the Bible defines it as ""exclusive"" of the law - ("The law is not of faith, Gal. 3:11-12 below").
*
Gal 3:11-12 (NKJ)
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
*
One would be hard-pressed to identify a more central error in the mind of the legalist than recursively: submission/inclusion of Christian principles to/within a legal construct, and redefinition of the whole as Christianity.
*
One of the most striking definitions of the "obedience of faith" is found in Romans 10:16. It is a parallelism equating "belief" with "obey [ing]" the gospel.
*
Rom 10:16 (NKJ)
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
*
The Law is not of Faith; That is, disobedience's being defined as disbelief, produces the paradox that to obey the law, is to disobey God. For our obeying the Law is self-usurping Christ's work on the cross. In other words Jesus was the only one that actually kept the law.
*
Saying "He kept the law" should be seen as He kept the "spirit of the law." Jesus did not keep the legal definitions of the law. It should also be seen that he broke the legal definitions of the law and had faith in God that it was the right thing to do. His healing the sick on the Sabbath was the right thing to do even though it broke the legal definition of the law.
*
In John 3:17-18 John wrote that the sin, which condemns, is the sin of "unbelief." John also wrote what Jesus said in John 16:8-9 below.
*
John 3:17-18 (NKJ)
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
*
John 16:8-9 (NKJ)
8 "And when He has come (The Holy Spirit), He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
*
So we see that obedience of Faith is not the same as obedience to the Jewish Law. Obedience to the faith is placing your faith, trust, confidence and hope in what Jesus (God) did on the cross.
--- let me say it another way, today, we are obedient when we place our faith in God’s work on the cross.
*
Another passage that destroys the myth of a law based Christian faith is found in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 below.
*
2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 (NKJ)
8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:
9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) in that day.
*
Note that those who "obey not the gospel" in verse 8 are contrasted with those "who believe" in verse 10. This is important.
*
I seem to have left out these two other scriptures that support what I am saying in this article.
*
Rom 1:1-9
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God
2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,
3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
NKJV
*
Their faith, not their works (verse 8)
*
Rom 16:25-27 NKJV
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith —
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

dragonfly · Aug 24, 2012

Hi Richard,

Under this HIDDEN IN GOD gospel a person is not saved by keeping the law. But you refuse to see it as a new gospel.

You are so blind. You want us to believe that obedience under grace is keeping the law and that is what you teach. You want us to go under law so that we can not be saved under grace.

I reckon you must have met a fair number of legalists in your time, but I'm not one of them. I spent a few hours a few days ago, explaining Romans 6 in detail, to show how we have to be baptised into Christ's death (or grafted into His death) in order to be freed from the Mosaic Law, and now live under the grace which comes through the Holy Spirit, to enable us to do the right thing, as God raises us up with Christ to walk in newness of His life.

Living under grace means we are faithfully obedient to all of His commands.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Richard, you may have an edge of the truth about grace, but unless you also accept what Paul told the Ephesians (Jews and Gentiles) about the Gentiles having been brought into 'the commonwealth of Israel' by the blood of Christ, you are in error. There is only one Church - the Israel of God - and there are no divisions in the body of Christ along racial lines. That is specifically disproven by Paul.

Will you accept these truths, or will you continue to resist them? I urge you to accept the clear teaching of Paul on both these points.

mark s · Aug 24, 2012

dragonfly said:
but unless you also accept what Paul told the Ephesians (Jews and Gentiles) about the Gentiles having been brought into 'the commonwealth of Israel' by the blood of Christ, you are in error. There is only one Church - the Israel of God - and there are no divisions in the body of Christ along racial lines. That is specifically disproven by Paul.

If I may jump in here . . . the Bible does not teach that gentiles are brought into the commonwealth of Israel, and now we are Israel.

Once you would only know God through the Mosaic Covenant, as part of Israel. Now you can come directly to Jesus. That is what Ephesians 2 teaches.

For "Israel of God", see Romans 9.

Love in Christ,
Mark

dragonfly · Aug 24, 2012

Hi Mark,

You are welcome to pick apart the Greek, but it is the newer translations which have watered down the simplicity of Paul's message. Romans 9 is just as clear as Ephesians 2, which I have posted several times recently (on CyB)

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,

and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

If they are no longer 'aliens from the commonwealth of Israel' they are members of the commonwealth of Israel - basic English comprehension.

They were 'strangers from the covenants of promise', but now they are partakers of the covenants of promise - basic English comprehension.

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one...' There is one commonwealth of Israel. One body of Christ. One Church.

Mark, I hope you will read the other posts I've made in Richard's threads, showing many scriptures which cohere perfectly.

mark s · Aug 24, 2012

dragonfly said:
Hi Mark,

You are welcome to pick apart the Greek,

I'm sorry . . . this doesn't sound like we're headed for very productive discussion. If you're not interested in discussing this with me, that's fine. Should I post my understanding . . . feel free to ignore it.

Love in Christ,
Mark

RichardBurger · Aug 24, 2012

dragonfly said:
Hi Richard,

I reckon you must have met a fair number of legalists in your time, but I'm not one of them. I spent a few hours a few days ago, explaining Romans 6 in detail, to show how we have to be baptised into Christ's death (or grafted into His death) in order to be freed from the Mosaic Law, and now live under the grace which comes through the Holy Spirit, to enable us to do the right thing, as God raises us up with Christ to walk in newness of His life.

Living under grace means we are faithfully obedient to all of His commands.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Richard, you may have an edge of the truth about grace, but unless you also accept what Paul told the Ephesians (Jews and Gentiles) about the Gentiles having been brought into 'the commonwealth of Israel' by the blood of Christ, you are in error. There is only one Church - the Israel of God - and there are no divisions in the body of Christ along racial lines. That is specifically disproven by Paul.

Will you accept these truths, or will you continue to resist them? I urge you to accept the clear teaching of Paul on both these points.

These are your truths. I have my own. You want me to to stop resisting your truths and as I said you are blind to the truth. There is only one church under grace and that church is the church of His body. That is what Paul called it and so do I. --- Nowhere in the writings of the 12 is the church called the body of Christ. It is specifically mentioned in Paul's writings alone and you know it.

I wrote the artical "Obedience to God" and you have ignored it so I will return the favor and ignore what you have written.

Again:

Legalists think this is no problem. They simply reason that the Jews were disobedient because they retained the law ""without"" Christ. Legalists feel they have remedied this: they have retained the law ""with Christ.""

Thus legalists define faith as ""inclusive"" of the law, when the Bible defines it as ""exclusive"" of the law - ("The law is not of faith, Gal. 3:11-12 below").

Gal 3:11-12 (NKJ)
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

One would be hard-pressed to identify a more central error in the mind of the legalist than recursively: submission/inclusion of Christian principles to/within a legal construct, and redefinition of the whole as Christianity.

dragonfly · Aug 24, 2012

Hi Richard and Mark,

Richard, I have, in the past, tried to prove Dispensationalism is the correct interpretation, but found far too many passages to ignore. We are not talking about the odd verse which could be discreetly swept under the carpet of unbelief. We are talking about major major agreements between the teachings of Peter and Paul, which you do not attempt to discuss; nor do you show scripture to show the differences which you perceive.

You only show scriptures to support the construct you have believed, regardless of far more evidence to the contrary. That's a pity.

Mark,

You're absolutely correct that I am not open to most of the doctrine of the last 200 years, which undermines the historic interpretation of scripture. And before you think I'm 'a historicist', I don't even know what they teach... but I know that when I was accused of being an historicist, the particular assumptions that were being made about what I had not said, were not true.

My background experience is of New Testament church as in 1 Cor 14 (the good bits!), Spirit-led exposition of scripture, absolutely no discrimination between the value of the books of the Bible, nor between people groups, and no distinction whatever between Jews and Gentiles, taking Ephesians 4 and Romans 9 - 11 very seriously. You will notice that Paul puts 'the adoption', before any other benefit to Israelites of believing in Christ. When you study out 'the adoption', Paul is talking to churches which have a mixture of Jews and Gentiles in them, and he never separates them once.

To me, that's what the Church is. It's what I've experienced, and although you may disagree with the biblical model, believe me, if it's being held together by the Lord Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit, according to the will of the Father, it works very well.....

It's not without challenges, but, it is the very truth.

Axehead · Aug 24, 2012

RichardBurger said:
Jesus and the 12 were under the law. Jesus taught the law. Jesus never said the Jews were not under the law when he was teaching them. But Jesus gave Paul a gospel of grace that was HIDDEN IN GOD and revealed to him. Under this HIDDEN IN GOD gospel a person is not saved by keeping the law. But you refuse to see it as a new gospel.

You are so blind. You want us to believe that obedience under grace is keeping the law and that is what you teach. You want us to go under law so that we can not be saved under grace. The scriptures where it says "if you go back under the law you have fallen from grace" applies to you and you want it to apply to everyone else. Fat chance!

Obedience under grace is doing as Paul taught; placing your belief, faith, trust, and confidence in His work on the cross to save you. I will add the following but I know you will not read it and understand.

Obedience to God:
*
The Obedience of Faith: (Obedient to the faith, Acts 6:7)
*
In the following study we will see what "obedience” really means under grace.
*
John 6:28-29, below, indicates that our work of faith is to believe in Jesus Christ.
*
John 6:28-29 (NKJV)
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
*
Acts 6:7, below, refers to some of the Jewish "priests as being obedient to the faith." Of course it means that they believed the gospel regarding Jesus being the Jewish Messiah and King.
*
Acts 6:7 (NKJ)
7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.
*
Romans 6:17, below, again is in reference to the belief of the Christians in Rome, both Jews and Gentiles by saying they "obeyed" the doctrine that Paul taught them; That doctrine concerning the dying of Jesus on the cross for our sins and His resurrection from the dead which confirmed that He (Jesus) was sent by God.
*
Rom 6:17 (NKJ)
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
*
Romans 11:30-32, below, describes the situation of the Jews as that of "disobedient" as were the Gentiles prior to believing the gospel. The KJV says they were "unbelieving." The words "unbelieving" and "disobedient" are chosen by different translators to represent the same Greek word.
*
Rom 11:30-32 (NKJ)
30 For as you (Gentiles) were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (the Jews) disobedience,
31 even so these (Jews) also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you (Gentiles) they (the Jews) also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all (Jews and Gentiles) to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
*
The above scriptures are a few of those that teach the obedience of faith is about faith in Christ (Faith in His work on the cross), rather than Decalogue (the ten commandments) observance.
*
Legalists think this is no problem. They simply reason that the Jews were disobedient because they retained the law ""without"" Christ. Legalists feel they have remedied this: they have retained the law ""with Christ.""
*
Thus legalists define faith as ""inclusive"" of the law, when the Bible defines it as ""exclusive"" of the law - ("The law is not of faith, Gal. 3:11-12 below").
*
Gal 3:11-12 (NKJ)
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
*
One would be hard-pressed to identify a more central error in the mind of the legalist than recursively: submission/inclusion of Christian principles to/within a legal construct, and redefinition of the whole as Christianity.
*
One of the most striking definitions of the "obedience of faith" is found in Romans 10:16. It is a parallelism equating "belief" with "obey [ing]" the gospel.
*
Rom 10:16 (NKJ)
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
*
The Law is not of Faith; That is, disobedience's being defined as disbelief, produces the paradox that to obey the law, is to disobey God. For our obeying the Law is self-usurping Christ's work on the cross. In other words Jesus was the only one that actually kept the law.
*
Saying "He kept the law" should be seen as He kept the "spirit of the law." Jesus did not keep the legal definitions of the law. It should also be seen that he broke the legal definitions of the law and had faith in God that it was the right thing to do. His healing the sick on the Sabbath was the right thing to do even though it broke the legal definition of the law.
*
In John 3:17-18 John wrote that the sin, which condemns, is the sin of "unbelief." John also wrote what Jesus said in John 16:8-9 below.
*
John 3:17-18 (NKJ)
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
*
John 16:8-9 (NKJ)
8 "And when He has come (The Holy Spirit), He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
*
So we see that obedience of Faith is not the same as obedience to the Jewish Law. Obedience to the faith is placing your faith, trust, confidence and hope in what Jesus (God) did on the cross.
--- let me say it another way, today, we are obedient when we place our faith in God’s work on the cross.
*
Another passage that destroys the myth of a law based Christian faith is found in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 below.
*
2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 (NKJ)
8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:
9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) in that day.
*
Note that those who "obey not the gospel" in verse 8 are contrasted with those "who believe" in verse 10. This is important.
*
I seem to have left out these two other scriptures that support what I am saying in this article.
*
Rom 1:1-9
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God
2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,
3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
NKJV
*
Their faith, not their works (verse 8)
*
Rom 16:25-27 NKJV
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith —
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

Thank you for that presentation, Richard. I am sorry you had to spend so much time on the LAW (assuming it is the Mosaic Law). Regardless though, anything we trust in besides His Voice and His Words to us by His Spirit for our righteousness and right standing with Him, will be of no avail to us. Do you agree? Conversely, we can disobey His ongoing Voice too, for we are in an ongoing walk. If we are disobeying His voice to our spirit would you agree that we are in danger of ceasing (if not already) to abide in Him and have broken fellowship?

We know from the Bible that the Father loves us because we Love His Son.
John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Do you see a place for the following scriptures in our everyday relationship with Jesus?

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Also, the Holy Spirit moved on Peter to pen this command of holiness to the Church. The Holy Spirit would not have inspired Peter to write this if He did not intend to equip us to fulfill this command.

How do you interpret this scripture?
But as He which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in ALL manner of conversation (behaviour); Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. (1Pet 1:15-17)

John writing to Christians.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

but then we have this:

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

We cannot say that we have not sinned yet, if we cannot say that we have not sinned, we are still supposed to be able to say that we know Him and keep His commandments. These two are not mutually exclusive.

There is no such thing as sinless perfection (full-time, forever) while living in this flesh, yet the attitude and motivation of your heart can still be Godward and pressing onto holiness and love. And when it is not, and you fall back, thank God He comes for you and leads you back. There is always some cost that we pay, though. Sin is a merciless taskmaster. But thank God, for His grace and mercy in the Person of Jesus Christ, otherwise we would all be stoned to death. But grace is not an excuse to continue in sin. Do you agree with that Richard/Mark?

God forbid! Right? The Lord wants us to repent.

What provision has the Lord given us for the insidiousness of sin, hardening our heart? What should one do when they realize they have a mountain of unconfessed sin that is turning their heart to stone?

Too many think that they come back to God at any time they choose, but they forget about the insidiousness of sin and how it hardens one's heart, slowly but surely without them being aware of it. (such as the frog in the water). Indeed, they are not aware of the damage it is causing, because they have substituted walking with God and His presence by something else that makes them feel good as an individual and helps them to justify in their minds that they are ok in God's sight. But they are still the frog in the water and the water is getting hotter (their heart is getting harder).

Again, a message being written to followers of Christ.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

What exhortations do you think the writer had in mind that we should be engaged in daily towards one another?

Axehead

mark s · Aug 24, 2012

Up until a couple of hundred years ago, pretty much nobody believed anymore that Israel would return as a nation, and they had to explain those parts of Scripture somehow. I say pretty much nobody, but there were a few, who believed the literal interpretation of Scripture (not that you don't, but not as much as some do), who insisted Israel would be back. They were heavily scorned for it.

In Christ there is neither Greek nor Jew. What do you make of that, if we all become "spiritual Jews"? Or do you think of Jews as something different than Israelites?

Are we considered the Spiritual children of Jacob? Do we inherit allotments within the promised land? OK . . . this should be a different thread. Unfortunately, I've got an awful lot going on right now, and I'm not going to have the time for it.

Love in Christ,
Mark

dragonfly · Aug 24, 2012

Hi Mark,

I guess your last post is to me, and I've spotted it early.

Up until a couple of hundred years ago, pretty much nobody believed anymore that Israel would return as a nation, and they had to explain those parts of Scripture somehow. I say pretty much nobody, but there were a few, who believed the literal interpretation of Scripture (not that you don't, but not as much as some do), who insisted Israel would be back. They were heavily scorned for it.

There has always been scorn for those who believe the word of God. Scorn has been in fashion since a serpent contradicted God.

In Christ there is neither Greek nor Jew. What do you make of that, if we all become "spiritual Jews"? Or do you think of Jews as something different than Israelites?

I tend to use the word 'Israelite' to be all inclusive of the house of Judah and the separated house of Israel, because Paul called them all 'Israelites' and 'the house of Israel' - as did Peter, as did Jesus - but I'm aware there is a vast body of questionable doctrine afloat across Christendom, which depends upon reading - or misreading - certain parts of scripture which leads to them splitting the ten tribes off, right up until this day. As this is not what was happening 2000 years ago, I tend to go with the facts of history. Acts 26:6, 7, 8.

I would not use the phrase 'spiritual Jews', but I might use the phrase 'spiritual Israel'.

Are we considered the Spiritual children of Jacob? Do we inherit allotments within the promised land?

Well, I don't believe the area which will be called Israel in the next world, will be as inhospitable as it presently is. I don't believe that any re-dividing to the tribes, will be solely for those natural Israeltes who obeyed God's voice in whichever century they lived. Here's why:

Exodus 12:48, Leviticus 19:34, Leviticus 22:18, Leviticus 25:23, Joshua 8:35, 2 Chron 2:17, Ezekiel 47:22, John 21:11, Mark 1:17

lawrance · Aug 25, 2012

mark s said:
Up until a couple of hundred years ago, pretty much nobody believed anymore that Israel would return as a nation, and they had to explain those parts of Scripture somehow. I say pretty much nobody, but there were a few, who believed the literal interpretation of Scripture (not that you don't, but not as much as some do), who insisted Israel would be back. They were heavily scorned for it.

In Christ there is neither Greek nor Jew. What do you make of that, if we all become "spiritual Jews"? Or do you think of Jews as something different than Israelites?

Are we considered the Spiritual children of Jacob? Do we inherit allotments within the promised land? OK . . . this should be a different thread. Unfortunately, I've got an awful lot going on right now, and I'm not going to have the time for it.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Fact is there is no nation called Israel today. it's only called the state of Israel today as it's all a made up worldly thing due to only men.
Go and ask the true Orthodox Jews, they don't call it Israel. and they are not happy at all about the direction of the nation is going down and the stupidity of the dregs bastardising everything.

I believe that when Israel comes back as it says, that is true Israel = true Christians, they are in Christ, as that is what Jesus Christ came for "Israel". ( the people of God ) as it can't be any other or that would be a rejection of Christ.

We as Christians have to reject all the stupid gods. as there is only one God and the only way is through Jesus Christ and if anyone pushes anything other that is the work of Satan for sure.

dragonfly · Aug 26, 2012

Hi Mark,

I was reading through this page again, and realised that when you said this:

Once you would only know God through the Mosaic Covenant, as part of Israel. Now you can come directly to Jesus. That is what Ephesians 2 teaches.

you may have been thinking that I was referring to Old Covenant Israel as still being 'the commonwealth of Israel' even in the New Covenant era. My subsequent reply to your questions may have clarified that, to your satisfaction, but I will still restate what I believe more clearly.

We see from John 1, that John Baptist's disciples were watching for the Messiah, and before He died He said 'this is the new covenant in my blood'; and after Pentecost, it's clear the apostles understood they were in the New Covenant which had been spoken of by the prophets Acts 3:18 - 26.

There are so many pointers in the OT and Jesus' and the apostles' teaching, that the land given to Abraham is not the place in which they expect to dwell with Him in righteousness, that I see the present political state of Israel, so obviously not submitted to God under the New Covenant - while being permitted by God for His own purposes - as more of an idol and less a fulfilment of prophecy - although it may well be part of the antiChrist agenda. Men have arranged it amongst themselves for themselves. Although there are real Christians living on that patch of the earth, the earth is not 'Israel' - the believers are the commonwealth of Israel.

Faith without works is dead

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