Pastor says Government should kill gays?

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aspen

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Apr 25, 2012
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Hi dragonfly,

'love without God' - is there any such thing?

Unfortunately, yes - it is called pride or self-love. Of course, it is a broken form of love. The same thing happens between kids and parents when a child has experienced extreme abuse or neglect - they tend to rely on themselves instead of their parents and it leads to terrible, life long problems.

'But Christian love; love given in response to experiencing God's love is good - it is what we were created for - it is the Kingdom of God in our hearts.'

Do you have scripture for this statement?


Nope. The Kingdom of God was compared to many different things in Jesus's parables, but never fully defined. I believe it is the freedom we feel when we experience God's love and share it with others.


'Christian love destroys all sin - if you are loving, it is impossible to sin.'

This sounds as if you think your sin is being espunged by your loving. Did I understand you correctly? (Or, are you saying that by loving another, you are destroying their sin?) Again on which verses are you basing the statement, please?


That is not what I mean at all. What I am saying is, we were created to love - unfortunately, our true purpose got screwed up - wires were crossed, so to speak, when we disobeyed God in the Garden. So, in affect we become broken toys - we could still love, but we loved ourselves, not God! Sin = self focus. Obedience/true love = focus on God, which leads to loving others. So just like you can not run in a straight line backwards and forwards at the same time; you cannot love as we were created to do and sin at the same time. If we all loved as we were created to love, their would be no sin. This is why repentance is necessary - taking the focus off of self and back on to God.

'Jesus was without sin because He loved everyone,'
No. Jesus was without sin because He successfully resisted every temptation, as a man. He came to earth because He already loved everyone, and He laid down His life for mankind because He chose to lay it down. John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


Yep, He submitted to the Father (love) and served His neighbor (love). Because He was always focused on God the Father and loving His neighbor, even in death, it was impossible for Him to sin.

'only God's perfect love, experienced by Christ could have given Him the ability to love others perfectly'....

Aren't the above verses from John, the opposite of what you said?


How so? Jesus was completely reliant on the Father - His focus on Him was perfect, therefore, He was perfect.

'Experiencing God's love leads to loving our neighbor,'

This may be true, but many people experience God's love and it doesn't lead to loving their neighbour...


I think very few people experience God's love. I think many people understand God's love in theory, but it is all in their head. You actually have to experience it. The gate is narrow.

'... which leads to citizenship in Heaven.'
No. We are citizens of heaven if we have received Christ Jesus as our Saviour, and been born again of His Spirit. Then we can love people as He loved them - selflessly - with no other agenda (like our own salvation, for instance). Please note the tense in the following verses from

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than [that of] Abel.

If your Bible doesn't say that, you're not getting the full picture.


Well, I do not know about you, but I do not live in Heaven yet, and I am far from perfect, so I am still in need of sanctification and redemption.


'Justification leads to sanctification, which leads to redemption.'

No. Justification is a legal statement given to us by God when we believe in Jesus Christ who has paid our full penalty for sin. Hence, 'justified by faith'
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. We are not, therefore, saved by our works. Or our love.


I never said that justification was up to us. Only God can justify us - He loved us first.

Sanctification is a process which would be better called 'glorification', as Paul describes it at the end of 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord. If we have separated ourselves to God and been washed in His blood, we are already 'holy'.


We are already justified, but we are not sanctified - if we were, we would love perfectly and therefore be perfect.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected [completed] for ever, them that are sanctified. That is, them that are in Christ. 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Redemption is what Jesus did for us by completely buying us back from the power of sin and death, with His own blood (as our ransom for sin).


I agree that the process of redemption starts with the cross and justification, but it is only complete in Heaven.

Hebrews 2:14b '... that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

2 Timothy 1:7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who has saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has abolished death, and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:


Just for the record; I think time and space are human constructs - IMO, Paul often mixes present and future tenses - and I think he is right to do so because in actuality we are being born, living, dying and kneeling before the throne of God (if we are redeemed), all at the same time.

I've just spent quite a few minutes looking for the New Jerusalem Bible online, to compare with the KJV quoted above, and would you believe it? Every single link is broken. As it happens, I own a New Jerusalem Bible, and will check the above verses tomorrow, and let you know how they differ, or not.


I am not a big fan of the NJB - I think it is a poor translation. I used to be protestant and tend to use the NIV or Catholic New Revised Standard.
 

tarmack09

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He would no doubt tell you that you were wrong about Leviticus and the OT that you are talking about. So what does Leviticus say?
So it is easy to see you are wrong about Leviticus but not so easy to see he is wrong. To see he is wrong one must understand that Christians, through Christ are not to punish others for sin, we are rescued by the grace of Jesus Christ and we must also help and pray for others, Christ will carry out the judgement.
So what, and he is a supporter of the OT law against men who lie with men instead of women.
And you disagree with God’s view as well.
OP= Opening post
NT = New Testament
OT= Old Testament
Whats ‘gay marriage’ ?

NB 1 Cor 5 says they boasted about it and were proud. 1 Cor 5 is instructing the church to expell false teachers and the willfuly immoral. Also Matthew 18. That would also exclude tarmac09 on his evidence should he call himslef a brother.

Thank you... Like I said before.. there are many incarnations of the Bible. That book has actually been changed more then you would think. Sometimes I even think the Koran is part of the bible. Especially the way some of these Christians sound at that church. I know this sounds like blasphomy but I think my eyes do not deceive me. There is even a passage in the bible that says you can "OWN SEX SLAVES".. Should I then say.. well.. you know what maybe.. the government should make that ok.. LOL... Umm yeah.. you see where this is going... Maybe I will buy me a sex slave and keep here.. ahahahahahhaa... Some people still believe that Jesus was actually Satan you know.. Me being one of them... I need to see more proof of his resurrection! Call me agnostic.. I don't care..
 

Rach1370

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Sure - love without God is sought after to glorify the self - I agree. But Christian love; love given in response to experiencing God's love is good - it is what we were created for - it is the Kingdom of God in our hearts.

It just seems weird to me that so many Christians feel like they have to pull the rug out from under the power of Christian love by either, ridiculing it, or trying to balance it out by mentioning selfish love. It is almost as if Christians are afraid that feeling too happy is a sin.

Christian love destroys all sin - if you are loving, it is impossible to sin. Jesus was without sin because He loved everyone, all the time - even in death. He did this because He had a perfect relationship with the Father - only God's perfect love, experienced by Christ could have given Him the ability to love others perfectly. Of course, Jesus is also God.

Experiencing God's love leads to loving our neighbor, which leads to citizenship in Heaven. Justification leads to sanctification, which leads to redemption.

I do agree that love is very important. It's one of the two things Jesus called us to really do. But I feel I must qualify that Aspen. We still live within a sinful world. No matter how free we are, how loving we are, sin will still dominate this world. Jesus may call us to love people, but he would never, ever call us to love sin. It is a tricky delineation, since sin is the state of a persons heart...therefore very much a part of them. I think we must clarify it this way...we love peoples souls. We desperately want what's best for them...which is Jesus and the freedom of sin. But we must not love their hearts...those desires that take them from God. We treasure who that person is, who God created them to be...a worshipper of the heavenly Lord...and we long for them to come to this realisation...that through Jesus they will be full of all they need, and free to love us back with a sinless love.
But we must never make the mistake of loving their sinful heart or the sinful deeds that come from it. I will use the homosexual example, since that's what the thread is about. We cannot make the homosexual act sinless by loving them with God's love. If we tell them we accept and even love the life they are living, we condone them in their sin. It would be like smiling indulgently on your overweight child as they sat at an all you can eat chocolate bar and said to them: I love that you're doing that...its great! Affirmation make them feel safe and happy in a lifestyle that will never leave them safe and happy...it will only slowly destroy that soul we care about...taking piece by piece away from its true purpose...to love Jesus.
I feel I must also mention Jesus righteous anger towards sin. Jesus, who we could never say did not love perfectly, was not accepting of sin. In the temple, with all the money lenders set up to dupe the poor and gullible...preying on peoples souls...the part that longed to enter the temple and 'be right' with God. These men used their hearts desire to become wealthy...and Jesus was furious! He didn't just 'woe to you' like he did the Pharisees...he physically tipped their tables over and whipped them from the temple!!! But what do you suppose Jesus would have done if one of those men had come back to him in repentance...true repentance? We know Jesus would have accepted him, loved him, and told him to sin no more.
We have a perfect example in Jesus...truly loving people is to desperately want them to be free of sin...not to be comfortable in their sin.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
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I do agree that love is very important. It's one of the two things Jesus called us to really do.

What was the other thing?

But I feel I must qualify that Aspen.

I know......that is the problem I mentioned in my post!

We still live within a sinful world. No matter how free we are, how loving we are, sin will still dominate this world.

Yep. But why is it that our personal contribution of Christian love is not enough to erase all sin in the world? Because everyone has to contribute Christian love to erase all sin from the world. Even Christ's perfect example of Christian love did not vanquish sin from the world because it didn't stop people from loving incompletely or not at all.

Jesus may call us to love people, but he would never, ever call us to love sin.

Have you ever loved sin in other people? Ever? I cannot say I have ever loved it. It may be titillating and exciting and tempting to watch in other people at times, but it most often ends in empathy for other's brokenness and fear for their fate and my peace of mind.

It is a tricky delineation, since sin is the state of a persons heart...therefore very much a part of them. I think we must clarify it this way...we love peoples souls. We desperately want what's best for them...which is Jesus and the freedom of sin. But we must not love their hearts...those desires that take them from God. We treasure who that person is, who God created them to be...a worshipper of the heavenly Lord...and we long for them to come to this realisation...that through Jesus they will be full of all they need, and free to love us back with a sinless love.

I agree that we are called to love other people - but I really do not understand why it is so difficult to determine between a person and their sin. Let's look at alcoholism for a minute - there is a clear behavior involved that is not attractive. It seems pretty basic to me that loving the person and not tolerating their sin is necessary in order to have a relationship with them. Homosexuality presents the same situation - we are not asked to love or approve of their behavior in order to love the person. But, we are not in charge of changing their behavior or rejecting them for behaving in a sinful way - especially if they are nonbelievers! I am not suggesting that we enable their behavior, but we do not have to correct it during every pause in the conversation, either. Nor do we need to legislate against their behavior, unless it presents a risk to the community - drunk driving, public drunkenness, etc. Frankly, if they are nonbelievers it is absolutely none of our business.

But we must never make the mistake of loving their sinful heart or the sinful deeds that come from it. I will use the homosexual example, since that's what the thread is about. We cannot make the homosexual act sinless by loving them with God's love.

I agree. Not sure if I have ever seen a believer who understands God's love trying to make a homosexual's sinful behavior sinless by loving them....

If we tell them we accept and even love the life they are living, we condone them in their sin.

Who does this?

It would be like smiling indulgently on your overweight child as they sat at an all you can eat chocolate bar and said to them: I love that you're doing that...its great! Affirmation make them feel safe and happy in a lifestyle that will never leave them safe and happy...it will only slowly destroy that soul we care about...taking piece by piece away from its true purpose...to love Jesus.

I do not advocate enabling. But comparing an adult homosexual with an obese child is troubling. What if the situation was different - what if an obese friend invited you to their house for dinner and cooked enough fried food for an army and expected you to share a meal with them?

I feel I must also mention Jesus righteous anger towards sin. Jesus, who we could never say did not love perfectly, was not accepting of sin. In the temple, with all the money lenders set up to dupe the poor and gullible...preying on peoples souls...the part that longed to enter the temple and 'be right' with God. These men used their hearts desire to become wealthy...and Jesus was furious! He didn't just 'woe to you' like he did the Pharisees...he physically tipped their tables over and whipped them from the temple!!! But what do you suppose Jesus would have done if one of those men had come back to him in repentance...true repentance? We know Jesus would have accepted him, loved him, and told him to sin no more.

They were believers and claimed to love God. I never read anything in the NT about Jesus turning over tables or condemning the money lenders and sinners that He ate dinner with.

We have a perfect example in Jesus...truly loving people is to desperately want them to be free of sin...not to be comfortable in their sin.

Do you really believe I am comfortable with sin? I am really wondering because lately, I have noticed many people on this board responding to me as a liberal, sin-loving, Hell-bound, heretic.....and no, Strat, I am not complaining, I am simply pointing out an observation. Rach, I am not claiming that I have seen this in your posts to me, but they have been others.

In conclusion, I think you have done a nice job of pointing out why sin is bad and why we should not like it. And I agree. All I am saying is that God has given people the freedom to love Him or themselves and we are not called to interfere in that freedom. All we are called to do is share our hope and love in Christ and pray for them to open their eyes to true freedom. Sometimes it seems like many Christians treat sinners like personal enemies, when Jesus treated them like sick people Matt 9:12
 

dragonfly

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From aspen2's reply to Rach
But why is it that our personal contribution of Christian love is not enough to erase all sin in the world? Because everyone has to contribute Christian love to erase all sin from the world. Even Christ's perfect example of Christian love did not vanquish sin from the world because it didn't stop people from loving incompletely or not at all.
Don't you understand that Jesus Christ already dealt with all the sin in the world when He was on the cross, and warned us that only 'few' would find the way to live free from sin? He had no expectation of everyone in the world accepting His free gift of eternal life in exchange for their sin, and it was not because He didn't love enough.

Unless you are loving with the love of God, crucified with Him, your love is a dead work which has no hope of bringing one other person to full salvation. 'All the sin in the world' is not going to be erased until God has poured out His wrath on unbelievers.

From aspen2's reply to dragonfly
I agree that the process of redemption starts with the cross and justification, but it is only complete in Heaven.
It's time you ditched that NIV and treated yourself to a KJV. You're obviously capable of grasping the old English, and if you dig into the Greek and Hebrew, you'll find that both redemption and justification are in the past tense. It's true that the physical completion of our redemption will come with the resurrection of our bodies, but we are, spiritually speaking, fully and freely justified already if we are believing in Jesus Christ and being filled with the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 5:18) You cannot keep making up your own unique belief system. Well you can, but the fulness of Christ comes from accepting His version of truth, no matter how it cuts across our own cherished ideologies.

We are already justified, but we are not sanctified - if we were, we would love perfectly and therefore be perfect.

I quoted you a verse which states clearly that we are already sanctified, and compared this with the process of being changed into His likeness which you prefer to call 'sanctification'. Furthermore, if you are loving with the love of God, then you are loving 'perfectly'.
 

Rach1370

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Aspen said:
What was the other thing?

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength....the second is like it...love your neighbour more than yourself.

Yep. But why is it that our personal contribution of Christian love is not enough to erase all sin in the world? Because everyone has to contribute Christian love to erase all sin from the world. Even Christ's perfect example of Christian love did not vanquish sin from the world because it didn't stop people from loving incompletely or not at all.

Love is not enough to stop sin. It's a nice concept, and one day, the love Jesus showed on the cross will vanquish it completely. But for now, we live in a fallen world, in fallen bodies and with fallen people.
It sounds a little to me like you are equating 'love' with salvation. 'Love' saves, 'love' stops sin. No. Jesus saves. The Holy Spirit helps us to stop sinning...not perfectly, that is something we will reach only once we stop breathing! Its is through our salvation in Christ that we love...love Him, love others. Just because I love someone, it will not stop them from sinning, or cancel out their sin. Love does not smoother sin like a fire blanket. Love welcomes them to us, so that they may see how their sin is killing them.

I agree that we are called to love other people - but I really do not understand why it is so difficult to determine between a person and their sin. Let's look at alcoholism for a minute - there is a clear behavior involved that is not attractive. It seems pretty basic to me that loving the person and not tolerating their sin is necessary in order to have a relationship with them. Homosexuality presents the same situation - we are not asked to love or approve of their behavior in order to love the person. But, we are not in charge of changing their behavior or rejecting them for behaving in a sinful way - especially if they are nonbelievers! I am not suggesting that we enable their behavior, but we do not have to correct it during every pause in the conversation, either. Nor do we need to legislate against their behavior, unless it presents a risk to the community - drunk driving, public drunkenness, etc. Frankly, if they are nonbelievers it is absolutely none of our business.

I'm not suggesting we need to beat them over the head with their sin at every pause in the conversation...that's being a bully, not a friend. But I am concerned that you are perhaps missing the very deadly nature of sin. Every sin is a 'risk to the community'...it is a risk to their happiness, contentment and eternal souls. They are in direct rebellion to the God of the universe. That is fairly serious right there, not even worrying about what the corrosive nature of it does to their souls. If they are non believers, sure, we don't have the right to hold them up to our standards...but it most certainly is our business. How on earth can we say we are supposed to love others, when we say 'its none of our business' if they destroy themselves with sin, and go to hell because of it? If we love them, we want to stack kindling around them and pray the Holy Spirit ignites it!

Who does this?

All the churches who welcome them into membership or leadership while they are openly confessing to living that way.

I do not advocate enabling. But comparing an adult homosexual with an obese child is troubling. What if the situation was different - what if an obese friend invited you to their house for dinner and cooked enough fried food for an army and expected you to share a meal with them?

Then you eat a normal amount of fried food. There is no way such a thing could make you sin...we show love by accepting his food, and deny sin by eating a normal amount that you would perhaps eat were you 'grabbing' lunch at a cafe.

They were believers and claimed to love God. I never read anything in the NT about Jesus turning over tables or condemning the money lenders and sinners that He ate dinner with.

I don't know that there is any indication that these money changers were believers or not. And in that day 'believer' just meant Jew...which really didn't mean much, as the Pharisees were also Jew.
Yes Jesus ate with sinners, but what was the common theme....they were either told to repent, or speaking with Jesus led them to repentance. Jesus never joined in anything sinful, just so they would feel comfortable, or loved. There is giving to us, as Christians, opportunities like this...love someone where they are, without indulging in their sin, or letting them feel we are 'ok' with it.

Do you really believe I am comfortable with sin? I am really wondering because lately, I have noticed many people on this board responding to me as a liberal, sin-loving, Hell-bound, heretic.....and no, Strat, I am not complaining, I am simply pointing out an observation. Rach, I am not claiming that I have seen this in your posts to me, but they have been others.

I honestly don't know Aspen...I can't say I've seen how you deal with it...and neither has anyone else, I might point out. I think you are very keen to love others, and that's a wonderful thing to do...a biblical thing to do. But I think we must always keep in mind that middle ground....we love others because of Jesus, so we need to stay true to what his love and message is all about...repentance, and salvation through grace...freedom from sin! Not freedom to sin, but from it! Marvellous!

In conclusion, I think you have done a nice job of pointing out why sin is bad and why we should not like it. And I agree. All I am saying is that God has given people the freedom to love Him or themselves and we are not called to interfere in that freedom. All we are called to do is share our hope and love in Christ and pray for them to open their eyes to true freedom. Sometimes it seems like many Christians treat sinners like personal enemies, when Jesus treated them like sick people Matt 9:12

Its a tricky line we walk. Because yeah, we aren't to be dictators telling non Christians how to live. But as we know the best way to live, how do we not tell them!! I think the answer is the obvious....love! It's love, real love for them, that lets us tell them, without demanding it and judging them for their being lost!
 

Hollyrock

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http://www.cnn.com/v...ty-comments.cnn

What does everyone think about this guy?

The passage that he is talking about is not exactly what he says in the video..


Leviticus 20:13

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of
them have committed an abomination : they shall surely be put to
death ; their blood shall be upon them.


Is this an anti free love passage?

I guess some people view the bible differently, its a shame that the bible promotes putting someone to death for such a thing. This passage that he is talking about is used in many different ways. Its a shame that there isn't just one version of this book called the bible. I have talked to many pastors and they have told me that they now use the New Testament.

I swear some of these pastors are changing the bible around and or ignoring other scripture.
He'd better be careful that his words don't boomerang
 

aspen

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Rach said:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength....the second is like it...love your neighbour more than yourself.

Umm...not to be difficult but loving God and loving your neighbor are both examples of the same thing - love.

Love is not enough to stop sin.

Your statement is like saying 'a bucket of water is not enough to stop a forest fire' - I agree; but that is not what I am saying. I am saying that where there is love there is no sin. An analogy might look like this: where there is a vacuum, there is no air. Love is not an antidote to sin; it is the opposite reaction - repentance from sin is love. All sin is a broken form of love. Make sense?

It's a nice concept, and one day, the love Jesus showed on the cross will vanquish it completely. But for now, we live in a fallen world, in fallen bodies and with fallen people.

Our only defense from personal sin is to be vulnerable enough to submit completely to Christ; experience His love; and love others. Just like the only way a broken machine can be considered fixed is if a technician identifies the problem, replaces a broken part, and operates it without error. Now, we are a bit more complicated than machines and we are going to continue to fail to love perfectly and therefore sin; but one day, we will be able to love perfectly in Heaven and never sin (love imperfectly) again.

It sounds a little to me like you are equating 'love' with salvation.

Actually, you are not far off. Salvation is engaging in a perfect, loving relationship with God and His Body - operating as we were created to operate. It is only possible because God loves us first and we experience His love. All we were ever created to do was to be in perfect communion with God and it is how we will spend eternity. The cool thing is that loving God is also obeying God so we will have an eternity to carry out His will for us - I wonder what kind of activities He has in store for us?!

'Love' saves, 'love' stops sin. No. Jesus saves.

And how does He save? Love, of course! He was perfect because He had a perfect relationship with our Father and He loved us perfectly, as well. Even in death, He loved us.

The Holy Spirit helps us to stop sinning...not perfectly, that is something we will reach only once we stop breathing! Its is through our salvation in Christ that we love...love Him, love others. Just because I love someone, it will not stop them from sinning, or cancel out their sin. Love does not smoother sin like a fire blanket. Love welcomes them to us, so that they may see how their sin is killing them.

Right. Our love will not save anyone from their sin or stop them from sinning - only a personal experience of God's love in their hearts will save them. God's love saves people and the Holy Spirit teaches us to repent from loving ourselves (technician identifying the problem) and focus on loving God instead (repentance - turning away from self towards God - technician fixing the machine). Our love for our neighbor shows them how wonderful life and eternity will be if we are vulnerable enough to rest in God (trust Him completely to fix our brokenness).

I'm not suggesting we need to beat them over the head with their sin at every pause in the conversation...that's being a bully, not a friend.

I am glad. Have you noticed how many Christians take this approach? Bullying people into the Kingdom is quite commonplace.

But I am concerned that you are perhaps missing the very deadly nature of sin.

Not at all. It is as bad as it gets for humanity. A medical equivalent might be AIDS in the early 80's - 100% lethal, no human cure, and kills you slowly and painfully.

Every sin is a 'risk to the community'...it is a risk to their happiness, contentment and eternal souls.

I think you know what I mean. Lying is not deadly, most of the time, but murder is.

They are in direct rebellion to the God of the universe. That is fairly serious right there, not even worrying about what the corrosive nature of it does to their souls.

Which is their choice.

If they are non believers, sure, we don't have the right to hold them up to our standards...but it most certainly is our business.

It is our business to love them - and love often times includes providing them with insight into the state of their souls - I agree. But, does it also include punitive, legal punishment? Or rejection? I say no - not unless their actions are a direct threat to the community.

How on earth can we say we are supposed to love others, when we say 'its none of our business' if they destroy themselves with sin, and go to hell because of it? If we love them, we want to stack kindling around them and pray the Holy Spirit ignites it!

Praying for them is important and so is witnessing within the context of a loving relationship, but we are not called to save anyone - we do not have the power to do it either.

All the churches who welcome them into membership or leadership while they are openly confessing to living that way.

I do not attend churches that do. When I speak about expecting sinners to sin without getting judgmental or preachy, I am talking about nonbelievers, not Christians.

Then you eat a normal amount of fried food. There is no way such a thing could make you sin...we show love by accepting his food, and deny sin by eating a normal amount that you would perhaps eat were you 'grabbing' lunch at a cafe.

I agree. But many Christians would claim that you are supporting the obese friend by sitting with them while they commit the sin of gluttony. And the fact that you did not give them a nutrition lesson and a Bible lesson while you modeled good eating habits for them, is an indication that you do not really love them at all - and you are just leading them to Hell in a double wide coffin. This is where I have a serious problem with the many 'Christian' responses to sin.

Yes Jesus ate with sinners, but what was the common theme....they were either told to repent, or speaking with Jesus led them to repentance.

Many of the references to Jesus eating with sinners have nothing to say about the repentance of the sinners - that was not a requirement for fellowship with Jesus. I am sure many of the sinners did repent, but Jesus loved them even if they did not.

Jesus never joined in anything sinful, just so they would feel comfortable, or loved. There is giving to us, as Christians, opportunities like this...love someone where they are, without indulging in their sin, or letting them feel we are 'ok' with it.

I would never advocate indulging in sin with a nonbeliever. I would argue that no one feels comfortable when they sin - they are engaging in an activity they were not created to do.

I honestly don't know Aspen...I can't say I've seen how you deal with it...and neither has anyone else, I might point out. I think you are very keen to love others, and that's a wonderful thing to do...a biblical thing to do. But I think we must always keep in mind that middle ground....we love others because of Jesus, so we need to stay true to what his love and message is all about...repentance, and salvation through grace...freedom from sin! Not freedom to sin, but from it! Marvellous!

I agree - repentance (turning from love of self towards God) and salvation (loving God and neighbor perfectly) and grace (God's willingness to forgive us because of His deep love for us)

Its a tricky line we walk. Because yeah, we aren't to be dictators telling non Christians how to live. But as we know the best way to live, how do we not tell them!! I think the answer is the obvious....love! It's love, real love for them, that lets us tell them, without demanding it and judging them for their being lost!

I think we are saying the same thing - except that I do not believe people are convinced to give up love of self in order to love God due to theological arguments or doctrinal orthodoxy - I think they choose to love God when the experience God's love through us. No four track law pamphlet is going to take the place of experiencing God's love through the service of a true believer who is vulnerable enough to love them.
 

Rach1370

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Umm...not to be difficult but loving God and loving your neighbor are both examples of the same thing - love.

Ummm, but it wasn't me who said it!! If Jesus thinks its important enough to tell us both, I'm guessing the distinction is necessary!

Your statement is like saying 'a bucket of water is not enough to stop a forest fire' - I agree; but that is not what I am saying. I am saying that where there is love there is no sin. An analogy might look like this: where there is a vacuum, there is no air. Love is not an antidote to sin; it is the opposite reaction - repentance from sin is love. All sin is a broken form of love. Make sense?

I have to disagree. I'm a Christian...I love...but I am not sin free. My love of Jesus doesn't mean I don't sin. I suppose you could say that all sin is 'broken' love... I would more classify it as rebellion against God, which is pride...but of course that's just self love. That would mean, I suppose, that what love we should have for God and Him alone, we turn to ourselves.


Our only defense from personal sin is to be vulnerable enough to submit completely to Christ; experience His love; and love others. Just like the only way a broken machine can be considered fixed is if a technician identifies the problem, replaces a broken part, and operates it without error. Now, we are a bit more complicated than machines and we are going to continue to fail to love perfectly and therefore sin; but one day, we will be able to love perfectly in Heaven and never sin (love imperfectly) again.

I don't know that we need to be vulnerable and broken to understand how he helps us with sin. Yes we need to come to the understanding that we are fully sinful, and that every deed of our hearts is evil without him. We need to know that we must repent when our flesh rebels against the Spirit...but the process of conviction and repentance can be a beautiful and uplifting thing. I dunno...we may be talking of the same thing, but just seeing it slightly differently!

Actually, you are not far off. Salvation is engaging in a perfect, loving relationship with God and His Body - operating as we were created to operate. It is only possible because God loves us first and we experience His love. All we were ever created to do was to be in perfect communion with God and it is how we will spend eternity. The cool thing is that loving God is also obeying God so we will have an eternity to carry out His will for us - I wonder what kind of activities He has in store for us?!

This is all absolutely correct, but we mustn't forget the other half of the equation. We were created this way, but we rebelled and fell. Salvations comes through an act of amazing love, yes, but He didn't need to just love us perfectly (which he did and does!), He needed to make propitiation for our sins, our rebellion. We must always remember that sin is not something we can avoid or not talk about...it was important enough to send our Lord to the cross.

Right. Our love will not save anyone from their sin or stop them from sinning - only a personal experience of God's love in their hearts will save them. God's love saves people and the Holy Spirit teaches us to repent from loving ourselves (technician identifying the problem) and focus on loving God instead (repentance - turning away from self towards God - technician fixing the machine). Our love for our neighbor shows them how wonderful life and eternity will be if we are vulnerable enough to rest in God (trust Him completely to fix our brokenness).

Agreed.

I am glad. Have you noticed how many Christians take this approach? Bullying people into the Kingdom is quite commonplace.

If they bully, they've missed the entire point.

Gotta run, so I'll try to reply to the rest later!
 
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Tarmac09
Thank you... Like I said before.. there are many incarnations of the Bible.
No there are none. There are translations, but they are derived from all or part of the same sources. To say there are incarnations of the Bible would be to imply the translations are all saying and meaning different things, which is obviously not the case.
On the points made in relation to the incorrect generalisation you have made, 1 Cor 5 and Matt 18 in all translations all describe expelling those who wilfully commit sexual immoral acts, even though some use different words none of them mean the opposite.

Aspen2,
Experiencing God's love leads to loving our neighbor, which leads to citizenship in Heaven. Justification leads to sanctification, which leads to redemption.
No that is fundamentally the wrong way round. Faith in Christ is experiencing God’s love and gives citizenship in heaven and gives justification, sanctification and redemption. Loving one’s neighbour is a manifestation of it.
Dragonfly’s and Rach’s responses are correct. What you are expounding here is humanism veiled as Christianity.
Yep, He submitted to the Father (love) and served His neighbor (love). Because He was always focused on God the Father and loving His neighbor, even in death, it was impossible for Him to sin.
This is correct but your previous statement
'Jesus was without sin because He loved everyone,'
only affirms part of that.
Its the same with ‘love your neighbour’. It comes hand in hand with loving God but Jesus did not say it was the same, Jesus said it is like it. So why do liberals always expound ‘love your neighbour’ instead of ‘love God’ and ‘love your neighbour’ Could it be that the latter is acceptable to the non-believer and the former is potentially offensive?
 

aspen

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Rach said:

Ummm, but it wasn't me who said it!! If Jesus thinks its important enough to tell us both, I'm guessing the distinction is necessary!

Jesus repeats Himself all the time in the NT - it is His speaking style, which was commonly used in His day to emphasize important points.

I have to disagree. I'm a Christian...I love...but I am not sin free. My love of Jesus doesn't mean I don't sin. I suppose you could say that all sin is 'broken' love... I would more classify it as rebellion against God, which is pride...but of course that's just self love. That would mean, I suppose, that what love we should have for God and Him alone, we turn to ourselves.

It seems that you are viewing love differently than I am. I am guessing you are viewing it as simply another emotion, sort like anger or hate; I am not. I see it as repentance from self love. If you are facing North (self love) you are no longer able to face South (focus on God), just like; if you are engage in lust (self gratification or self love) you are no longer able to focus on God for the moment, which requires repentance or a turning away from ourselves and back to God.

You are right, as far as claiming that loving God in one area of our lives (let's say driving our car in traffic, unselfishly) doesn't stop us from turning away from God in other areas (let's say gluttony) - it is not the presence of love in our lives that magically stops us from sinning - it is the very act of loving perfectly or consistently choosing love over self love in all areas of our lives that makes it impossible to sin - this only happens perfectly in Heaven.

Learning not to sin, by trusting God completely is sort of like a toddler learning how to walk - they turn back to what is comfortable, which is crawling often, but once they get the hang of walking, which can take awhile, they give up crawling completely. Walking is not the opposite of crawling, but it is a replacement - you can not do both activities at the same time and we were created to walk, not crawl. The only breakdown in this analogy is that toddlers have to rely on their own strength to walk consistently - sinners have to be vulnerable enough to rely on God completely in order to learn to love perfectly.

I don't know that we need to be vulnerable and broken to understand how he helps us with sin. Yes we need to come to the understanding that we are fully sinful, and that every deed of our hearts is evil without him. We need to know that we must repent when our flesh rebels against the Spirit...but the process of conviction and repentance can be a beautiful and uplifting thing. I dunno...we may be talking of the same thing, but just seeing it slightly differently!

Before the Fall we were in perfect communion with God - we loved perfectly. Unfortunately, we took our eyes off of Him and onto ourselves, when we ate from the Tree and we have been following the same tendency ever since - this is Original Sin. So now, it is not that we had to eat from the Tree or become broken to understand God's love for us - we knew it perfectly before the Fall; but we did break ourselves (so to speak), and we are now required to be humble enough or vulnerable enough in the presence of God's love for us to experience it and accept it and act upon it by loving our neighbors. God is doing all the work - we win our salvation by losing our Pride.

This is all absolutely correct, but we mustn't forget the other half of the equation. We were created this way, but we rebelled and fell. Salvations comes through an act of amazing love, yes, but He didn't need to just love us perfectly (which he did and does!), He needed to make propitiation for our sins, our rebellion. We must always remember that sin is not something we can avoid or not talk about...it was important enough to send our Lord to the cross.

I share the Franciscan view of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, so we probably differ in our understanding. I believe that God would have sent Jesus to us regardless, whether we were Fallen or not; since we were Fallen, instead of loving Him perfectly, we murdered Him. Yes, Christ's death and resurrection reunited us with the Father, but it was due to Christ's unfailing love for us (His sinlessness) even in the face of death that saves us - it was His love for our Father and us that conquered death. Through His love on the cross, we are saved; we can now follow Him because He created a path for us, if we are humble and vulnerable enough to love through all circumstances.

So, as you can see, love is foundational in my understanding of Christianity and my worldview - there is nothing easy, liberal, or hippy-esque about it, as some have chosen to believe.

On a side note, I am starting to believe that self love has shattered our imagine of ourselves and artificially compartmentalized our view of our lives - only loving perfectly through Christ can make us whole again. Without Christ, we act differently in 1000 areas of our lives; with Him, we are united with ourselves again - we stop thinking dualistically and we reduce all the compartments of our lives to just one. Not sure if that makes sense.

Tarmac09
No there are none. There are translations, but they are derived from all or part of the same sources. To say there are incarnations of the Bible would be to imply the translations are all saying and meaning different things, which is obviously not the case.
On the points made in relation to the incorrect generalisation you have made, 1 Cor 5 and Matt 18 in all translations all describe expelling those who wilfully commit sexual immoral acts, even though some use different words none of them mean the opposite.

Aspen2,
No that is fundamentally the wrong way round. Faith in Christ is experiencing God’s love and gives citizenship in heaven and gives justification, sanctification and redemption. Loving one’s neighbour is a manifestation of it.
Dragonfly’s and Rach’s responses are correct. What you are expounding here is humanism veiled as Christianity.
This is correct but your previous statement
only affirms part of that.
Its the same with ‘love your neighbour’. It comes hand in hand with loving God but Jesus did not say it was the same, Jesus said it is like it. So why do liberals always expound ‘love your neighbour’ instead of ‘love God’ and ‘love your neighbour’ Could it be that the latter is acceptable to the non-believer and the former is potentially offensive?

I think you want to believe I am a liberal humanist. I also think that you view my posts through your preconceived notions about me.

When I say that experiencing Christ's love leads to loving your neighbor - I am not saying that we are doing any of the work, like a humanist theist; instead I am saying that the experience of Christ's love (which I experience most often in prayer) equips us with the ability to love others. We can only love God and others because He loves us first.

Finally, I value loving God just as much as loving my neighbor.
 
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Aspen2,
I see it as repentance from self love. If you are facing North (self love) you are no longer able to face South (focus on God), just like; if you are engage in lust (self gratification or self love) you are no longer able to focus on God for the moment, which requires repentance or a turning away from ourselves and back to God.
I am glad to agree, this is what the NT epistles say about the flesh and the spirit.
I believe that God would have sent Jesus to us regardless, whether we were Fallen or not;
But that is faulty speculation and at odds with the truth of what the NT says. Just as Moses lifted up the snake, God sent His only Son so that all who believe may not perish but have eternal life. The fact is Jesus did come because we were fallen and thus if He didn’t come then we would perish.
Through His love on the cross, we are saved;
and through His sacrifice for sin, you are still only giving half the gospel. (Romans 3, Hebrews 2, 1 John 2, 1 John 4)
So, as you can see, love is foundational in my understanding of Christianity ..
My understanding of Christianity is Christ, God is love so if one knows God one knows love.
You see if one says love is the foundation of their worldview, atheists can agree, but if one says God is the foundation then they cant. But God is love, so why cant they? It is because their god is love.
 

bytheway

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Nothing, as long as its biblical love. Too much sin is excused by labelling it 'loving'. God is love, His sacrifice for us is love...true love. Therefore all love needs to honour and glorify him. Homosexual love is selfish and does not glorify God...thus we must agree with our Saviour and label it sin. It's really that simple. Doesn't mean we don't love gay people...befriend them and be honest with them. It just means we don't say God is okay with their lifestyle when He is not.
Nailed it in more than one way!
 
Jul 6, 2011
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Nothing, as long as its biblical love. Too much sin is excused by labelling it 'loving'. God is love, His sacrifice for us is love...true love. Therefore all love needs to honour and glorify him. Homosexual love is selfish and does not glorify God...thus we must agree with our Saviour and label it sin. It's really that simple. Doesn't mean we don't love gay people...befriend them and be honest with them. It just means we don't say God is okay with their lifestyle when He is not.
Amen
 

aspen

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How can heterosexuals know if love between homosexuals is selfish? What about homosexual couples that have long term relationships? selfish relationships do not last.

Homosexual relationships are more than sex.

Also, I think there is much more of a problem with Christians throwing out love towards those they disagree with, or reducing love to saving the nonbeliever from Hell instead of serving them, than there are Christians who accept sin because they want to love people at all costs.

Acceptance of sin is not love. Neither is beating a nonbeliever over the head with the truth.
 

dragonfly

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How can heterosexuals know if love between homosexuals is selfish?
Greetings aspen2, :) I've written you an essay here, but don't want you to feel obliged to reply in great detail as I may not be able to reply - although others may have time, and wish to. I'm aware of having started points which could be discussed in more detail. Hopefully, you will do some serious Bible study soon, and let God speak to you from His word. (I say that, because what you write doesn't portray Biblcial truth, and yet you seem to believe it does. That's a cause for concern to me and others.)

Eventually I found my NJB and checked the verses I posted yesterday, and there were two important differences (as well as mainly additions). The most important difference was in Hebrews 2, where it removed the word 'destroyed' (as in 'destroyed the devil'), and replaced it with 'set aside'. 'Set aside' does not concur with the message of the New Testament, except for the prophesy that Satan will be loosed for a season before he is finally thrown in the lake of fire. He is already beaten. From the garden of Eden he has been going on his belly in the dust. He had already been cast out of heaven, and Jesus told the disciples He saw him fall, like lightening. Actually, he has only as much power now, as God permits Him. The fact that he does have some power helps us to know whether we are on God's side (against him), or deep in our hearts we approve of his agenda - self.

The second important difference was in 2 Tim 1, where it removed 'sound mind' and replaced it with 'self-control' in v 7. This matters for at least two reasons. The first is, that we have received the Spirit of God, (if we have), and God has a completely sound mind. We are told to put on the mind of Christ; we are told that we have the mind of Christ; we are told to engage with the renewing of the spirit of our minds, by the Holy Spirit. This is a consistent message in the New Testament. Self-control is mentioned in the NT, as a fruit of the Spirit, in Galatians 5. It is result of being a branch which has been grafted into the True Vine, Jesus Christ, and it is a spontaneous, natural outworking of the life of God in the believer. (This is not to say it overcomes our fleshly desires without our co-operation.) It is, to some extent, the demonstration of a 'sound mind' - the mind of the Holy Spirit - but they are two very distinct attributes which each have a place in their own right. Self-control is not a synonym for 'sound mind' nor vice versa.


Now to your questions. The issue is not selfishness, it's idolatry. There is something about what it means to follow Christ that you are not 'getting' with heart understanding, and I say that with gentleness. I am reading your posts very carefully, and listening to what you are sharing about your point of view, and trying to figure out what is missing, or, what is cluttering up your mind so that you cannot 'hear' what is being written to you here.

From my point of view, showing you scripture which is the irrevocable and unmovable word of God, it is hoped you will pay attention to HIM, not me. But nevertheless, I - I am His mouthpiece (one of them) in this conversation. Please pay attention. I am speaking with understanding. And, I am speaking from the point of view of one who at one time didn't understand anything - especially the Bible - so I do realise that there is a difference between thinking one knows what God means, and finding out in reality that He doesn't necessarily mean what I thought He did. And, that what He means is far more sensible than anything I could devise on my own. More than that, I've discovered that He doesn't change His word so that it fits my preferences. Rather, I have to change to fit His. That's the gospel; that's the truth; that's what will save you from His wrath when He unleashes it.

So, getting back to your question about what a hetersexual might know, let me share with you a fact of nature. When God created (creates) He made (makes) things perfect. We see when Jesus prayed twice for a blind man to receive his sight, that He does know what He wants and He knows when He has created it. In the case of humans - beginning with Adam - He created a man who was perfectly in His image. From Adam, He made a woman who was perfectly in His image. He intended them to bear fruit (children), because He is a God of increase and multiplication; and He had established that principle in the things created before mankind - fruit containing seeds which when planted would produce the same kind of plant which would produce fruit containing seeds which when planted would produce the same kind of plant... I hope you get the picture. When God breathed into the shape He had formed from the dust of the ground, Adam became a living soul and that dust became permeated with life. From this, we are descended (as described with the fruit and the seed order). Even everything that is corrupted by sin, naturally tends towards functioning normally. This is the power of God and a fact of nature.

The Fall introduced death to the human race; death as a consequence of sin permeating the nature of the man. This is a spiritual truth. Sin corrupts, but it by no means ruined the image of God in man beyond restoration. Jesus Christ came to demonstrate what the image of God in a man should look like, sound like, act like, think like - BE like - a life free from sin. And, on the cross He wrestled with Satan until He had dealt him a fatal injury. He did this on our behalf, so that by coming to Him - through Him to the Father - we could receive this victory as a free gift. There were other things being fulfilled on the cross through His death and sacrifice, but the key thing is His victory over the power of sin - the sin (the power that causes people to 'do' sins). Once we have acknowledged our own worthiness to die for our sins, we can receive His death gladly on our own behalf. It is only from here - this being buried in His death - that we can begin to experience what it is to walk in newness of life.

The hardest thing about the gospel, is that no-one is exempt from this death - one way or the other - and we cannot keep a little bit of the old life to take with us while the rest of us is put to death in Christ. But we all like to think we're a special case, and God should excuse us from dying in Christ, as a unique exception. I hope you can see why this doesn't make any sense to God at all, because He knows He can save us only if the whole of us is in Christ. It is here (in Christ) that we are able to be restored back to spiritual health and fully integrated normality as human beings. We never stop dealing with the effects of sin in the flesh, but, the inability to overcome sin is forever altered through receiving Christ's death as our own death.

There are two main aspects to the practice of sin: the first is the damage is does to others, the second is the damage it does to us. There is a doctrine which says all healing is in the Atonement, and it's true that until the Atonement (Christ's death on the cross), this restoration was not available to men. It could not be experienced by them. But, I put it to you that when Jesus came into His ministry, He was the Resurrection and the Life already, and that is how both He, and His disciples to whom He gave the power, could heal people and send demons out of their bodies, raise the dead and cleanse lepers. When He comes by the Holy Spirit to live in a person (as described in John 17), the Resurrection and the Life comes to dwell in him / her. There is healing for damage done to a person by sins of others, (which occurs independently of forgiveness, (This is my personal experience.) as well as healing for the damage which our own sins, and our responses to being hurt, have done to ourselves. I'm not saying these happen without our invitation, but they are definitely available. And, God has made Himself clear down through history in numerous ways, so that He will never be unjustified in condemning a person who has failed to apprehend (lay hold of) their own salvation on God's terms.

God designed (Maker's instructions, if you like), humans to function in a certain way, following the natural inclination (instinct) which He has given. Of itself, this produces God-given healthy feelings which are affirmations from God Himself. We could talk for a long time about selfishness and pride within heterosexual relationships, and all it would prove is that there is an on-going work to be done in the hearts and minds of men and women - even those who have given their lives to Jesus Christ. This is simply not the issue with homosexual behaviour, the aetiology of which Paul describes in detail in Romans 1: which begins with the failure to acknowledge God (full stop) and His truth in all its fulness. God is mightily patient with each individual soul, knowing every thought they think and giving a great many opportunities to acknowledge Him properly, before He gives them up to their sins.

Note: the key issue in both Romans 1 and 2 Thessalonians 2, is truth, and the choice made to disregard it, or even, to hate it. God knows whether a person loves truth, or hates truth, by the way they actually behave. Do they obey Him, or do they obey other influences of spirit and flesh?

The issue is not one sin or another sin. It is not a comparative issue - which sin is worse. It is not about us at all. It is about God and the proper acknowledgement of Him as He has declared He should be acknowledged. And there is no half-way house. If we are feeding sins in our lives, we are not worshipping God as we should. And if we are doing our will, instead of His will, then we are in rebellion - it is witchcraft - flesh truimphing over Spirit. It carries no weight with God at all in regard to our salvation, except to condemn us. Even one's best love poured out for others is another version of a person 'going about to establish their own righteousness', (Romans 10:3), rather than ceasing from their own works for ever, and receiving the righteiousness of God in Christ Jesus. Only after, we have received the righteousness of Christ by faith, can we bring a right heart's attitude to God, humbly desiring to do His will, not ours, and, to receive power to cease from sinful works - as well as religious ones. I am familiar with Franciscan ideology, and it is just as much a work of the flesh as any other departure from truth written in the Bible. The main failure of Roman teaching, is to add works to the death of Christ, rather than publicising the greatness of His victory over Satan and sin, once and for all people.

What about homosexual couples that have long term relationships
Hopefully, you know the answer to this question by now.

Let me add, I do understand how nice, kind, cultured, amusing, intelligent (and so on) those practising homosexuality are/can be, but they all need to repent of their rejection of God's truth about His image in which they were created, and, from their willingness to please themselves rather than God. Their attitude has to be consciously and meaningfully rejected and renounced, and, God be worshipped in truth and Spirit. He sees everything. He knows everything. He is not deceived. But look at this verse: 2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. The thing that comes first, is the choice a person makes to lie (to themselves that God will not mind, nor matter, nor know). After that, they are deceivable because they have denied the truth their conscience knew. God ensures there are consequences for this.

The important principle to note here, is how God has put each individual's fate in their own hands. I know that children can be easily deceived while they are children. God knows that too. But, there is a time when one realises God is holding me accountable for my choices. In fact, the belief that one cannot be free from homosexual desires and practices is a whole bunch of lies. It suits the Catholic Church to project that there is no such thing as victory over sin, because that keeps people in bondage. They don't care which bondage, but believe me, try to get away from them, and you will get the hard sell. Life can be made very unpleasant for an ex-Catholic by Catholic churchmen. It doesn't feel like 'love' to the recipient.....

If you want the power to help homosexual practictioners, you need to work through all your own 'stuff', and become so obedient to God that He can give you all the authority you need to cast out demons and pray for the healing of broken lives according to His will (only). Remember, Jesus' obedience took Him to the cross, wherefore He was given a name above every name that at His Name, every knee should bow. And it will. But, there are 'religious' spirits which will give a good feeling about religious works. Even God will back up His word in the mouth of an ass. Never forget that. The challenge is to speak the love of God into people's lives in a prophetic way, so they are changed by it. Nothing less. Yes, there is a place to be physically practical with our expressions of love, but wisdom is needed even then, as God will always have an opinion about it. Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
 

aspen

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Greetings aspen2, :) I've written you an essay here, but don't want you to feel obliged to reply in great detail as I may not be able to reply - although others may have time, and wish to. I'm aware of having started points which could be discussed in more detail. Hopefully, you will do some serious Bible study soon, and let God speak to you from His word. (I say that, because what you write doesn't portray Biblcial truth, and yet you seem to believe it does. That's a cause for concern to me and others.)

Eventually I found my NJB and checked the verses I posted yesterday, and there were two important differences (as well as mainly additions). The most important difference was in Hebrews 2, where it removed the word 'destroyed' (as in 'destroyed the devil'), and replaced it with 'set aside'. 'Set aside' does not concur with the message of the New Testament, except for the prophesy that Satan will be loosed for a season before he is finally thrown in the lake of fire. He is already beaten. From the garden of Eden he has been going on his belly in the dust. He had already been cast out of heaven, and Jesus told the disciples He saw him fall, like lightening. Actually, he has only as much power now, as God permits Him. The fact that he does have some power helps us to know whether we are on God's side (against him), or deep in our hearts we approve of his agenda - self.

The second important difference was in 2 Tim 1, where it removed 'sound mind' and replaced it with 'self-control' in v 7. This matters for at least two reasons. The first is, that we have received the Spirit of God, (if we have), and God has a completely sound mind. We are told to put on the mind of Christ; we are told that we have the mind of Christ; we are told to engage with the renewing of the spirit of our minds, by the Holy Spirit. This is a consistent message in the New Testament. Self-control is mentioned in the NT, as a fruit of the Spirit, in Galatians 5. It is result of being a branch which has been grafted into the True Vine, Jesus Christ, and it is a spontaneous, natural outworking of the life of God in the believer. (This is not to say it overcomes our fleshly desires without our co-operation.) It is, to some extent, the demonstration of a 'sound mind' - the mind of the Holy Spirit - but they are two very distinct attributes which each have a place in their own right. Self-control is not a synonym for 'sound mind' nor vice versa.


Now to your questions. The issue is not selfishness, it's idolatry. There is something about what it means to follow Christ that you are not 'getting' with heart understanding, and I say that with gentleness. I am reading your posts very carefully, and listening to what you are sharing about your point of view, and trying to figure out what is missing, or, what is cluttering up your mind so that you cannot 'hear' what is being written to you here.

From my point of view, showing you scripture which is the irrevocable and unmovable word of God, it is hoped you will pay attention to HIM, not me. But nevertheless, I - I am His mouthpiece (one of them) in this conversation. Please pay attention. I am speaking with understanding. And, I am speaking from the point of view of one who at one time didn't understand anything - especially the Bible - so I do realise that there is a difference between thinking one knows what God means, and finding out in reality that He doesn't necessarily mean what I thought He did. And, that what He means is far more sensible than anything I could devise on my own. More than that, I've discovered that He doesn't change His word so that it fits my preferences. Rather, I have to change to fit His. That's the gospel; that's the truth; that's what will save you from His wrath when He unleashes it.

So, getting back to your question about what a hetersexual might know, let me share with you a fact of nature. When God created (creates) He made (makes) things perfect. We see when Jesus prayed twice for a blind man to receive his sight, that He does know what He wants and He knows when He has created it. In the case of humans - beginning with Adam - He created a man who was perfectly in His image. From Adam, He made a woman who was perfectly in His image. He intended them to bear fruit (children), because He is a God of increase and multiplication; and He had established that principle in the things created before mankind - fruit containing seeds which when planted would produce the same kind of plant which would produce fruit containing seeds which when planted would produce the same kind of plant... I hope you get the picture. When God breathed into the shape He had formed from the dust of the ground, Adam became a living soul and that dust became permeated with life. From this, we are descended (as described with the fruit and the seed order). Even everything that is corrupted by sin, naturally tends towards functioning normally. This is the power of God and a fact of nature.

The Fall introduced death to the human race; death as a consequence of sin permeating the nature of the man. This is a spiritual truth. Sin corrupts, but it by no means ruined the image of God in man beyond restoration. Jesus Christ came to demonstrate what the image of God in a man should look like, sound like, act like, think like - BE like - a life free from sin. And, on the cross He wrestled with Satan until He had dealt him a fatal injury. He did this on our behalf, so that by coming to Him - through Him to the Father - we could receive this victory as a free gift. There were other things being fulfilled on the cross through His death and sacrifice, but the key thing is His victory over the power of sin - the sin (the power that causes people to 'do' sins). Once we have acknowledged our own worthiness to die for our sins, we can receive His death gladly on our own behalf. It is only from here - this being buried in His death - that we can begin to experience what it is to walk in newness of life.

The hardest thing about the gospel, is that no-one is exempt from this death - one way or the other - and we cannot keep a little bit of the old life to take with us while the rest of us is put to death in Christ. But we all like to think we're a special case, and God should excuse us from dying in Christ, as a unique exception. I hope you can see why this doesn't make any sense to God at all, because He knows He can save us only if the whole of us is in Christ. It is here (in Christ) that we are able to be restored back to spiritual health and fully integrated normality as human beings. We never stop dealing with the effects of sin in the flesh, but, the inability to overcome sin is forever altered through receiving Christ's death as our own death.

There are two main aspects to the practice of sin: the first is the damage is does to others, the second is the damage it does to us. There is a doctrine which says all healing is in the Atonement, and it's true that until the Atonement (Christ's death on the cross), this restoration was not available to men. It could not be experienced by them. But, I put it to you that when Jesus came into His ministry, He was the Resurrection and the Life already, and that is how both He, and His disciples to whom He gave the power, could heal people and send demons out of their bodies, raise the dead and cleanse lepers. When He comes by the Holy Spirit to live in a person (as described in John 17), the Resurrection and the Life comes to dwell in him / her. There is healing for damage done to a person by sins of others, (which occurs independently of forgiveness, (This is my personal experience.) as well as healing for the damage which our own sins, and our responses to being hurt, have done to ourselves. I'm not saying these happen without our invitation, but they are definitely available. And, God has made Himself clear down through history in numerous ways, so that He will never be unjustified in condemning a person who has failed to apprehend (lay hold of) their own salvation on God's terms.

God designed (Maker's instructions, if you like), humans to function in a certain way, following the natural inclination (instinct) which He has given. Of itself, this produces God-given healthy feelings which are affirmations from God Himself. We could talk for a long time about selfishness and pride within heterosexual relationships, and all it would prove is that there is an on-going work to be done in the hearts and minds of men and women - even those who have given their lives to Jesus Christ. This is simply not the issue with homosexual behaviour, the aetiology of which Paul describes in detail in Romans 1: which begins with the failure to acknowledge God (full stop) and His truth in all its fulness. God is mightily patient with each individual soul, knowing every thought they think and giving a great many opportunities to acknowledge Him properly, before He gives them up to their sins.

Note: the key issue in both Romans 1 and 2 Thessalonians 2, is truth, and the choice made to disregard it, or even, to hate it. God knows whether a person loves truth, or hates truth, by the way they actually behave. Do they obey Him, or do they obey other influences of spirit and flesh?

The issue is not one sin or another sin. It is not a comparative issue - which sin is worse. It is not about us at all. It is about God and the proper acknowledgement of Him as He has declared He should be acknowledged. And there is no half-way house. If we are feeding sins in our lives, we are not worshipping God as we should. And if we are doing our will, instead of His will, then we are in rebellion - it is witchcraft - flesh truimphing over Spirit. It carries no weight with God at all in regard to our salvation, except to condemn us. Even one's best love poured out for others is another version of a person 'going about to establish their own righteousness', (Romans 10:3), rather than ceasing from their own works for ever, and receiving the righteiousness of God in Christ Jesus. Only after, we have received the righteousness of Christ by faith, can we bring a right heart's attitude to God, humbly desiring to do His will, not ours, and, to receive power to cease from sinful works - as well as religious ones. I am familiar with Franciscan ideology, and it is just as much a work of the flesh as any other departure from truth written in the Bible. The main failure of Roman teaching, is to add works to the death of Christ, rather than publicising the greatness of His victory over Satan and sin, once and for all people.

Hopefully, you know the answer to this question by now.

Let me add, I do understand how nice, kind, cultured, amusing, intelligent (and so on) those practising homosexuality are/can be, but they all need to repent of their rejection of God's truth about His image in which they were created, and, from their willingness to please themselves rather than God. Their attitude has to be consciously and meaningfully rejected and renounced, and, God be worshipped in truth and Spirit. He sees everything. He knows everything. He is not deceived. But look at this verse: 2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. The thing that comes first, is the choice a person makes to lie (to themselves that God will not mind, nor matter, nor know). After that, they are deceivable because they have denied the truth their conscience knew. God ensures there are consequences for this.

The important principle to note here, is how God has put each individual's fate in their own hands. I know that children can be easily deceived while they are children. God knows that too. But, there is a time when one realises God is holding me accountable for my choices. In fact, the belief that one cannot be free from homosexual desires and practices is a whole bunch of lies. It suits the Catholic Church to project that there is no such thing as victory over sin, because that keeps people in bondage. They don't care which bondage, but believe me, try to get away from them, and you will get the hard sell. Life can be made very unpleasant for an ex-Catholic by Catholic churchmen. It doesn't feel like 'love' to the recipient.....

If you want the power to help homosexual practictioners, you need to work through all your own 'stuff', and become so obedient to God that He can give you all the authority you need to cast out demons and pray for the healing of broken lives according to His will (only). Remember, Jesus' obedience took Him to the cross, wherefore He was given a name above every name that at His Name, every knee should bow. And it will. But, there are 'religious' spirits which will give a good feeling about religious works. Even God will back up His word in the mouth of an ass. Never forget that. The challenge is to speak the love of God into people's lives in a prophetic way, so they are changed by it. Nothing less. Yes, there is a place to be physically practical with our expressions of love, but wisdom is needed even then, as God will always have an opinion about it. Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That was a considerable amount of writing. I hate to say it, but if you read had my other posts concerning homosexuality, it might have saved you a lot of time and effort.

I believe:

1. Homosexuality is a sin

2. Christian homosexuals need to repent

3. Non-believing homosexuals and other sinners need to humble themselves before God, but until they do, they are not responsible for following His moral code.

4. I have experienced God's love.

5. Because I have experienced God's love, first hand; I rely on Him for my self worth instead of myself, so I am able and willing to love my neighbor.
 

tarmack09

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Nov 16, 2008
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Tarmac09
No there are none. There are translations, but they are derived from all or part of the same sources. To say there are incarnations of the Bible would be to imply the translations are all saying and meaning different things, which is obviously not the case.
On the points made in relation to the incorrect generalisation you have made, 1 Cor 5 and Matt 18 in all translations all describe expelling those who wilfully commit sexual immoral acts, even though some use different words none of them mean the opposite.

No, I understand that there might be some sexual acts that are viewed as immoral by the christian church. I am not denying that. All I am saying is that the bible contradicts itself many times..even when it comes to sexual morality. In (Numbers 31:7-18) and (Exodus 21:7-11). Also I question the following passage as well (Zechariah 14:1-2) . The lord says to rape and plunder? Please answer this for me...what are they talking about?
 
Jul 6, 2011
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aspen2,
How can heterosexuals know if love between homosexuals is selfish?
Sorry as I said, I can love other men but I don’t have any sexual based activity with them. Love is the same, it’s the sex that is different.

Homosexual relationships are more than sex.
No they aren’t. You were asked what more they were and as usual you didn’t answer.


tarmack09,
All I am saying is that the bible contradicts itself many times..even when it comes to sexual morality.
The Bible doesn’t contradict itself at all if one understands it holistically and in context, though it does appear to contradict itself all over the place without the bigger picture.

In (Numbers 31:7-18) and (Exodus 21:7-11). Also I question the following passage as well (Zechariah 14:1-2) . The lord says to rape and plunder? Please answer this for me...what are they talking about?
You are lurching from one thing to another. At times when the Israelites were supposed to be an example for God and surrounding tribes were fighting them to destroy them and replace God, ie Exodus and Numbers, God did instruct the Israelites to do the same back. Do you have a problem with that? Remember because of the fall people are already dead in sin. Do you have a problem with that?
I think Zechariah is a spiritual message primarily.
 

dragonfly

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Apr 19, 2012
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brightmorningstar to tarmack09
The Bible doesn’t contradict itself at all if one understands it holistically and in context, though it does appear to contradict itself all over the place without the bigger picture.
Amen!


In (Numbers 31:7-18) and (Exodus 21:7-11). Also I question the following passage as well (Zechariah 14:1-2) . The lord says to rape and plunder? Please answer this for me...what are they talking about?
To help understand the verses in Exodus and Numbers, please read this. I think the meaning is clear, and it doesn't involve rape.

Deuteronomny 21:10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; {pare: or, suffer to grow: Heb. make, or, dress} 13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. 14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

The following passage is about a Hebrew man selling his daughter in peace time.
Exodus 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. (See vv 2- 6 for menservants.) There seems to be an assumption that if a master buys a girl, he might want to marry her. In this case, she has rights - residence, marital relations, food and clothes. And to be retained, if she has had children.

8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. Betrothal was a period of time when a woman and man were married in every way except the sexual relations. Normally, it would be a great disappointment to a woman if the man who had betrothed her to himself, finally decided he didn't 'like' her enough to go ahead when the time came. I'm not sure how much time would be involved between a slave and her master - maybe less than a year. A year was an average amount of time for an intended couple to get to know each other personally.

9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. 10 If he take him another [wife]; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. 11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money. Note: a man could have as many wives as he could afford, if he wanted more than one. He could not sell an ex-wife to anyone else. To get rid of her, he had to let her go free.

Numbers 31. Obviously, Moses had expected all the people to be killed in the war. The reality of having not killed them all, caused him to make a compromise. No israelite was permitted to take another man's wife. That would be to break the law. That's why all the married women were killed. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. The rules in Deuteronomy 21 apply here.

Remember that in idolatry, fornication was an act of worship. That's why all the women - even unmarried women - who were not virgins - were to be slain. If a man takes a virgin to be his wife, he knows that her children are his. This is not a silly point. It matters very much to every man. The Midianite woman would become one flesh with her Israelite husband, and from then on she, and her children, would be counted as a member of Israel, through his circumcision.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. When this happens, (if it has not already) as in every other time Jerusalem has been attacked, God has sent, or permitted it, because of the people's spiritual adultery. But, He always sees to it that there are escapees, and He always punishes the nations who have harmed Israel - because He always would prefer for Israel to repent and turn back to Him.

I think it's a mistake to read Zech 14 like it's one linear description of a series of consecutive events. Previous chapters in Zechariah cannot be read that way, as we see from the observation made by John in John 19:37, and the obvious reference to Jesus Christ's death, in Zechariah 13:6.

Hello aspen2,

Thanks for your very clear response. I have a few more thoughts.
2. Christian homosexuals need to repent
There is no such thing as a 'Christian homosexual'.

There are Christians (many), who used to be 'homosexual', but they turned away from that sin when they came to Christ; and that makes them heterosexual, whether they feel like it or not. The feelings of heterosexuality may take time to catch up with the spiritual truth; but, the homosexual feelings are to be ignored, resisted, strangled to death by abstinence, (mortified), and given no grounds whatever, to thrive in any person calling themself a Christian.

Now I KNOW it doesn't 'feel' like that to many who turn to Christ, but at the time they turn to Christ they have to know that any continuance in homosexual relations, is the very real fruit which will tell both themselves and the world, what kind of tree they are, and whether they've been grafted into the true Vine, Jesus Christ, or not.

There is an exceptionally strong spirit involved in homosexual behaviour. It has to be strong, to overwhelm the normal maleness of a man who wants to be with a woman. To take away the ground in the person's life on which that spirit dwells, it is ESSENTIAL that the man (or woman) THINKS DIFFERENTLY about themselves and their sexuality. Unless they MAKE a change of attitude which lines up with the freedom wherewith the Son has MADE them free, the bondage will linger.

It is not true for everyone, that when the Holy Spirit comes into their life, every other spirit leaves without a battle. So, if the homosexuals you know are in churches where the demonic spiritual involvement is ignored or overlooked, then you need to look for ministers who know how to counsel and pray for them. Here is an online resource: http://www.desertstream.org/.

3. Non-believing homosexuals and other sinners need to humble themselves before God, but until they do, they are not responsible for following His moral code.
I know what you're saying, in that while anyone is in idolatry instead of worshipping God, they will reap what they are sowing. God will see to it.

But, they are responsible. God will hold them responsible. That's what Romans 1: 16 to the end of Romans 2, is about.

A man who resists all temptation is still under attack, and of course, may sin in other ways, but if he can resist sinning against his own body through homosexual fornication, he will be better off spiritually, I believe - even though it will seem to him to be a huge cost to pay - not pandering to his flesh in that way. Same goes for avoiding heterosexual fornication.