Pastor says Government should kill gays?

aspen · Jun 7, 2012

dragonfly said:
brightmorningstar to tarmack09
Amen!

To help understand the verses in Exodus and Numbers, please read this. I think the meaning is clear, and it doesn't involve rape.

Deuteronomny 21:10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; {pare: or, suffer to grow: Heb. make, or, dress} 13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. 14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

The following passage is about a Hebrew man selling his daughter in peace time.
Exodus 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. (See vv 2- 6 for menservants.) There seems to be an assumption that if a master buys a girl, he might want to marry her. In this case, she has rights - residence, marital relations, food and clothes. And to be retained, if she has had children.

8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. Betrothal was a period of time when a woman and man were married in every way except the sexual relations. Normally, it would be a great disappointment to a woman if the man who had betrothed her to himself, finally decided he didn't 'like' her enough to go ahead when the time came. I'm not sure how much time would be involved between a slave and her master - maybe less than a year. A year was an average amount of time for an intended couple to get to know each other personally.

9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. 10 If he take him another [wife]; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. 11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money. Note: a man could have as many wives as he could afford, if he wanted more than one. He could not sell an ex-wife to anyone else. To get rid of her, he had to let her go free.

Numbers 31. Obviously, Moses had expected all the people to be killed in the war. The reality of having not killed them all, caused him to make a compromise. No israelite was permitted to take another man's wife. That would be to break the law. That's why all the married women were killed. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. The rules in Deuteronomy 21 apply here.

Remember that in idolatry, fornication was an act of worship. That's why all the women - even unmarried women - who were not virgins - were to be slain. If a man takes a virgin to be his wife, he knows that her children are his. This is not a silly point. It matters very much to every man. The Midianite woman would become one flesh with her Israelite husband, and from then on she, and her children, would be counted as a member of Israel, through his circumcision.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. When this happens, (if it has not already) as in every other time Jerusalem has been attacked, God has sent, or permitted it, because of the people's spiritual adultery. But, He always sees to it that there are escapees, and He always punishes the nations who have harmed Israel - because He always would prefer for Israel to repent and turn back to Him.

I think it's a mistake to read Zech 14 like it's one linear description of a series of consecutive events. Previous chapters in Zechariah cannot be read that way, as we see from the observation made by John in John 19:37, and the obvious reference to Jesus Christ's death, in Zechariah 13:6.

Hello aspen2,

Thanks for your very clear response. I have a few more thoughts.
There is no such thing as a 'Christian homosexual'.

There are Christians (many), who used to be 'homosexual', but they turned away from that sin when they came to Christ; and that makes them heterosexual, whether they feel like it or not. The feelings of heterosexuality may take time to catch up with the spiritual truth; but, the homosexual feelings are to be ignored, resisted, strangled to death by abstinence, (mortified), and given no grounds whatever, to thrive in any person calling themself a Christian.

Now I KNOW it doesn't 'feel' like that to many who turn to Christ, but at the time they turn to Christ they have to know that any continuance in homosexual relations, is the very real fruit which will tell both themselves and the world, what kind of tree they are, and whether they've been grafted into the true Vine, Jesus Christ, or not.

There is an exceptionally strong spirit involved in homosexual behaviour. It has to be strong, to overwhelm the normal maleness of a man who wants to be with a woman. To take away the ground in the person's life on which that spirit dwells, it is ESSENTIAL that the man (or woman) THINKS DIFFERENTLY about themselves and their sexuality. Unless they MAKE a change of attitude which lines up with the freedom wherewith the Son has MADE them free, the bondage will linger.

It is not true for everyone, that when the Holy Spirit comes into their life, every other spirit leaves without a battle. So, if the homosexuals you know are in churches where the demonic spiritual involvement is ignored or overlooked, then you need to look for ministers who know how to counsel and pray for them. Here is an online resource: http://www.desertstream.org/.

I know what you're saying, in that while anyone is in idolatry instead of worshipping God, they will reap what they are sowing. God will see to it.

But, they are responsible. God will hold them responsible. That's what Romans 1: 16 to the end of Romans 2, is about.

A man who resists all temptation is still under attack, and of course, may sin in other ways, but if he can resist sinning against his own body through homosexual fornication, he will be better off spiritually, I believe - even though it will seem to him to be a huge cost to pay - not pandering to his flesh in that way. Same goes for avoiding heterosexual fornication.

Well, I guess we will just have to disagree about the existence of Christian homosexuals. I believe their are people who are Christian who struggle and fail to remain celibate who are committed to Christ.

I believe God will hold all sinners responsible for their sin. But, for now, they are allowed to exist as sinners.

brightmorningstar said:
aspen2,
Sorry as I said, I can love other men but I don’t have any sexual based activity with them. Love is the same, it’s the sex that is different.

No they aren’t. You were asked what more they were and as usual you didn’t answer.

I am not obligated to answer any of your posts and I will not be manipulated or goaded into doing so; nor will I feel pressured to provide you answer after answer until you feel satisfied. I am in this discussion for recreational purposes - I could careless who wins.

Homosexual relationships are like heterosexual relationships - they involve sex, intimacy, friendship, companionship, partnership, and love. They also involve misunderstanding, guilt, insecurity, jealousy, and resentment. I know Christians like to pretend that homosexual relationships are all about selfish sex, and only a real heterosexual relationship is deep and meaningful - it is just not true.

It is funny, when I point out the errors in your logic - you accuse me of arguing for homosexuality or using lgbt arguments - you are forgetting that just because God has declared homosexuality to a sin doesn't mean that all heterosexual marriages are RIGHT or that all Christian arguments for heterosexual marriage and against homosexual marriage are LOGICAL.

Homosexuality is a sin because God declared it to be sinful, not because it is less than heterosexual marriage or only includes monstrous reprobates who hate God and want to give Him the finger every time they leer at another person of the same sex.

Why do Christians have to demonize sinners?? It is necessary so that we do not feel guilty for marginalizing them?

bytheway · Jun 7, 2012

Homosexuals produce their own trouble. Just keep your mouths shut and keep what you do to yourselves. I dont need or want to know what your sexual orientation is. Deception is at work here. This topic is much to frequent on the site. If reputable professionals ever find the gay gene then maybe there might be something to discuss.

aspen · Jun 7, 2012

bytheway said:
Homosexuals produce their own trouble. Just keep your mouths shut and keep what you do to yourselves. I dont need or want to know what your sexual orientation is. Deception is at work here. This topic is much to frequent on the site. If reputable professionals ever find the gay gene then maybe there might be something to discuss.

This is an opinion board. If you feel uncomfortable reading people's opinions, why are you here?

dragonfly · Jun 7, 2012

God has declared homosexuality to a sin doesn't mean that all heterosexual marriages are RIGHT or that all Christian arguments for heterosexual marriage and against homosexual marriage are LOGICAL.

Hi aspen2,

This kind of comment is absolutely fine as an expression of your own opinion, but a viewpoint which is our own uncrucified opinion can never be described as 'Christian', if it's at variance with God's opinion. There is a time, after a believer's mind has been renewed into His image and understanding, that a Christian may claim and hold honestly, in his heart, God's opinion as his own. Until that time a believer's responsibility is to familiarise himself with God's opinion, and to meditate upon it, and prayerfully seek to understand it, and to see why God might make hold the opinions He does.

God - the God of order - is utterly logical. Any lack of logic in His thinking - from our point of view - is due to our fallen, unregenerate minds. We have all had those kind of opinions, and been forced to change our minds. The longer one goes on with God, the more one is surprised to find out how many times He has an opinion which is different from ours. It's a case of the more you think you know, the more you find you didn't know as much as you thought you did.

doesn't mean that all heterosexual marriages are RIGHT

The heterosexual part is right, and God knows it's difficult to be married. That's why He had Paul write at the end of Ephesians 5 three times that husbands are to love their wives - because this will make them (the husbands) like Jesus in their love - and wives to reverence their husbands - because this will challenge every Eve-like fibre in a woman's thinking - and make her like Jesus. This is God's plan.

There is no such thing as 'homosexual marriage'. It's not even an oxymoron. It's a misnomer that has no parallel with heterosexual marriage in God's sight. And, there isn't any part of homosexual commitment that pleases God while it is founded on their unnatural attraction to other males/females.

As far as the kind of provision which is made by the law for heterosexual couples to be provided for after the death of a spouse, all of those privileges can be set in legal documents separately from calling it 'marriage' between homosexual partners. The changes to the law brought about by creating an instrument of homosexual marriage only make it easier for the beaurocrats and lawyers. They don't really care about people. It changes nothing in God's sight.

Strat · Jun 7, 2012

bytheway said:
Homosexuals produce their own trouble. Just keep your mouths shut and keep what you do to yourselves. I dont need or want to know what your sexual orientation is. Deception is at work here. This topic is much to frequent on the site. If reputable professionals ever find the gay gene then maybe there might be something to discuss.

Homosexuality is all the rage in modern christianity,its one of their favorite sins to rationalize

aspen · Jun 7, 2012

Before I even address your post, I should let you know that I have enjoyed our conversation over the past week or so. Now, I need to also say that your post is very troubling to me. IMO it is advocating, no; actually, making it mandatory for people to deny, and eventually lose their own opinions and take on the opinion of conservative Christian culture; except they must call it God's opinion and believe it to be true. This is absolutely unacceptable to me and is the reason many educated people reject Christianity. It is also why so many people outside of Christianity see Christians as anti-intellectual, ignorant, and blind to all evidence discovered by human thought / study / reason (science, archaeology, geology, etc), which goes against conservative Christian culture. As for me, I completely and utterly reject the mandate to check my brain at the door, put blinders on, and deny reality in order to tow the Christian line. All truth is God's truth. Just like scientists can be wrong about their interpretation of evidence - so can Christians about God and His Word. The difference is that scientists invite new theories, which are supported by evidence - they do not claim to have all the answers. Christian literalists not only claim to understand God and His Word perfectly, they appear angry when other people question their group think. With this mentality, Bible Study becomes a misnomer - it becomes a place for people to sit around discussing the one interpretation and then getting excited about the one answer - this is not a study! - it is a pep rally for Jesus.

Dragonfly said

This kind of comment is absolutely fine as an expression of your own opinion, but a viewpoint which is our own uncrucified opinion can never be described as 'Christian', if it's at variance with God's opinion.

Since when did anyone tell us that we needed to crucify our opinion? I am not going to deny my opinion, especially when it is about ideas that are not included in God's Word. Why are you demanding that people throw out all ideas that are not in line with conservative Christian culture?

The renewing of our minds that Paul is talking about is all about viewing the world from a secure point (God loves us so we now know we are not alone, nor do we have to rely on other people for our security/self esteem); loving God and neighbor are now our number one concern. No longer do we have to hide behind the world's roles, registers or masks - we are free to love others because we know who we are in Christ!

There is simply no mandate for us to take on ancient, arcane ideas about the world from antiquity. The reason those ideas are even mentioned in the Bible is so that we can get an idea of where the people were coming from so that we can get a better idea of how their hearts were transformed by God. Do you really think the important part of David's story was the wars he fought or if he believed the world was flat or the names of people he knew? Instead it was the transformation of his heart recorded in the Psalms! It was he humility in the face of murder and adultery! It was he character, shaped by God - not his membership in a certain tribe or how many wives he had. We get so caught up in the irrelevant parts of the Bible - and YES there are many, many irrelevant parts in the Bible! It is all supposed to be there - but the reason for much of it is to frame the character of the people and their reaction to God's sovereignty.

Does it really matter if the Creation story is literal? Why can't be a mystic vision that took 7 days? Why can't it be a commentary on the nature of man and his relationship to God? Sometimes I feel like Christians just do not get it - we seem to be like the kid in school that can't seem to ever get the punchline of a joke because he is so wrapped up in the stupid details.

Unfortunately for the unbeliever (our preoccupation with details and lineage and ancient culture at the expense of love and transformation of heart and character) it ends up promoting dried up doctrine with a lot of demands instead of the transforming power of the Holy Spirit.

There is a time, after a believer's mind has been renewed into His image and understanding, that a Christian may claim and hold honestly, in his heart, God's opinion as his own. Until that time a believer's responsibility is to familiarise himself with God's opinion, and to meditate upon it, and prayerfully seek to understand it, and to see why God might make hold the opinions He does.

Absolutely false. Do you realize what you are saying? You are demanding that people deny reality. All reality that is not covered in the Bible or does not fit in the literal interpretation of the conservative Christian narrative must be 'crucified'. Don't think to hard about the Flood or the Ark - you might entertain some doubt - which we all know is the Devil trying to deceive us! It doesn't matter that the story is absolutely impossible without a complete suspension of all natural law and a magic Ark, which can contain all varieties of animals and the food it takes to feed them - we must deny reason and take on God's understanding. Sorry, God cannot promote and demand confusion AND be a God of reason - just like God cannot be GOOD and MORAL AND live by His own rules - He either is GOOD or He is not. I choose to believe that God is GOOD and REASONABLE, therefore He has to live by His own rules and reason.

God - the God of order - is utterly logical. Any lack of logic in His thinking - from our point of view - is due to our fallen, unregenerate minds. We have all had those kind of opinions, and been forced to change our minds. The longer one goes on with God, the more one is surprised to find out how many times He has an opinion which is different from ours. It's a case of the more you think you know, the more you find you didn't know as much as you thought you did.

I have no problem changing my mind if presented with reasonable theories, doctrine or evidence. Actually, I also change my mind due to inspiration from the Spirit,as well. I do not 'give up my opinion' because some Christian tells me that I am not really a Christian unless I accept certain ideas about God or His Word, however.

The heterosexual part is right, and God knows it's difficult to be married. That's why He had Paul write at the end of Ephesians 5 three times that husbands are to love their wives - because this will make them (the husbands) like Jesus in their love - and wives to reverence their husbands - because this will challenge every Eve-like fibre in a woman's thinking - and make her like Jesus. This is God's plan.

Here is another literal interpretation of what Paul says about marriage that has everyone totally screwed up in their understanding of marriage. Paul was simply saying 'love' in different ways - he was trying to include the husband and the wife specifically - so he presented two forms of love - one for each of them. But instead of just realizing that God wants us to love each other in marriage, we have decided that wives and husbands are supposed to take on different roles - this has caused so many problems for couples who just want to be happy and please God! Mercy!

There is no such thing as 'homosexual marriage'. It's not even an oxymoron. It's a misnomer that has no parallel with heterosexual marriage in God's sight. And, there isn't any part of homosexual commitment that pleases God while it is founded on their unnatural attraction to other males/females.

This is a denial of reality. What is happening is that two people of the same sex want to live together in a marriage relationship - the relationship is not addressed in the Bible - conservative Christians decide that one incident of rape / sexual assault in the OT and one incident of worldliness in the NT address modern homosexual relationships and therefore, homosexual marriage must not really exist. This is not being Godly! It is being crazy! Also, this has nothing to do with the sinfulness of same sex sexual relationships being sinful or not - I believe there is enough evidence to prove that it is sinful - what this really has to do with is fear. Christians are afraid of becoming a minority - we are afraid that if we lose control of the behavior of nonchristians, somehow we will lose our faith or favor with God. I have more faith in God than that - He is faithful - we do not need to fear.

As far as the kind of provision which is made by the law for heterosexual couples to be provided for after the death of a spouse, all of those privileges can be set in legal documents separately from calling it 'marriage' between homosexual partners. The changes to the law brought about by creating an instrument of homosexual marriage only make it easier for the beaurocrats and lawyers. They don't really care about people. It changes nothing in God's sight.

Why do you care if nonbelievers call their relationship marriage or not? WHY? Mormons call themselves Christian - IT DOES NOT MATTER. It is between the nonbeliever and God.

dragonfly · Jun 7, 2012

Would anyone else care to reply to aspen2's latest post? Please feel free.

aspen, I appreciate your honesty, and I thank you for having laid out your belief system more fully. I completely understand why it appeals to you. You deny the power of God; you deny the gospel; Jesus Christ has never been your Lord - although you could change that - and you have not bowed your mind to the word of God (as it is written), nor understood what Paul is talking about in Romans 6:6, and Galatians 2:20.

Ephesians 2: '...dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Eternal reality began when the Father sacrificed the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world. This is the only reality which makes a difference to anything. All your sophistry, all your service, all your uncrucified opinion will do, is keep you locked out of eternal life.

Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do [his commandments]: his praise endureth for ever. {a good...: or, good success} {his commandments: Heb. them}

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.

Strat · Jun 7, 2012

aspen2 said:
Before I even address your post, I should let you know that I have enjoyed our conversation over the past week or so. Now, I need to also say that your post is very troubling to me. IMO it is advocating, no; actually, making it mandatory for people to deny, and eventually lose their own opinions and take on the opinion of conservative Christian culture; except they must call it God's opinion and believe it to be true. This is absolutely unacceptable to me and is the reason many educated people reject Christianity. It is also why so many people outside of Christianity see Christians as anti-intellectual, ignorant, and blind to all evidence discovered by human thought / study / reason (science, archaeology, geology, etc), which goes against conservative Christian culture. As for me, I completely and utterly reject the mandate to check my brain at the door, put blinders on, and deny reality in order to tow the Christian line. All truth is God's truth. Just like scientists can be wrong about their interpretation of evidence - so can Christians about God and His Word. The difference is that scientists invite new theories, which are supported by evidence - they do not claim to have all the answers. Christian literalists not only claim to understand God and His Word perfectly, they appear angry when other people question their group think. With this mentality, Bible Study becomes a misnomer - it becomes a place for people to sit around discussing the one interpretation and then getting excited about the one answer - this is not a study! - it is a pep rally for Jesus.

Dragonfly said

This kind of comment is absolutely fine as an expression of your own opinion, but a viewpoint which is our own uncrucified opinion can never be described as 'Christian', if it's at variance with God's opinion.

Since when did anyone tell us that we needed to crucify our opinion? I am not going to deny my opinion, especially when it is about ideas that are not included in God's Word. Why are you demanding that people throw out all ideas that are not in line with conservative Christian culture?

The renewing of our minds that Paul is talking about is all about viewing the world from a secure point (God loves us so we now know we are not alone, nor do we have to rely on other people for our security/self esteem); loving God and neighbor are now our number one concern. No longer do we have to hide behind the world's roles, registers or masks - we are free to love others because we know who we are in Christ!

There is simply no mandate for us to take on ancient, arcane ideas about the world from antiquity. The reason those ideas are even mentioned in the Bible is so that we can get an idea of where the people were coming from so that we can get a better idea of how their hearts were transformed by God. Do you really think the important part of David's story was the wars he fought or if he believed the world was flat or the names of people he knew? Instead it was the transformation of his heart recorded in the Psalms! It was he humility in the face of murder and adultery! It was he character, shaped by God - not his membership in a certain tribe or how many wives he had. We get so caught up in the irrelevant parts of the Bible - and YES there are many, many irrelevant parts in the Bible! It is all supposed to be there - but the reason for much of it is to frame the character of the people and their reaction to God's sovereignty.

Does it really matter if the Creation story is literal? Why can't be a mystic vision that took 7 days? Why can't it be a commentary on the nature of man and his relationship to God? Sometimes I feel like Christians just do not get it - we seem to be like the kid in school that can't seem to ever get the punchline of a joke because he is so wrapped up in the stupid details.

Unfortunately for the unbeliever (our preoccupation with details and lineage and ancient culture at the expense of love and transformation of heart and character) it ends up promoting dried up doctrine with a lot of demands instead of the transforming power of the Holy Spirit.

There is a time, after a believer's mind has been renewed into His image and understanding, that a Christian may claim and hold honestly, in his heart, God's opinion as his own. Until that time a believer's responsibility is to familiarise himself with God's opinion, and to meditate upon it, and prayerfully seek to understand it, and to see why God might make hold the opinions He does.

Absolutely false. Do you realize what you are saying? You are demanding that people deny reality. All reality that is not covered in the Bible or does not fit in the literal interpretation of the conservative Christian narrative must be 'crucified'. Don't think to hard about the Flood or the Ark - you might entertain some doubt - which we all know is the Devil trying to deceive us! It doesn't matter that the story is absolutely impossible without a complete suspension of all natural law and a magic Ark, which can contain all varieties of animals and the food it takes to feed them - we must deny reason and take on God's understanding. Sorry, God cannot promote and demand confusion AND be a God of reason - just like God cannot be GOOD and MORAL AND live by His own rules - He either is GOOD or He is not. I choose to believe that God is GOOD and REASONABLE, therefore He has to live by His own rules and reason.

God - the God of order - is utterly logical. Any lack of logic in His thinking - from our point of view - is due to our fallen, unregenerate minds. We have all had those kind of opinions, and been forced to change our minds. The longer one goes on with God, the more one is surprised to find out how many times He has an opinion which is different from ours. It's a case of the more you think you know, the more you find you didn't know as much as you thought you did.

I have no problem changing my mind if presented with reasonable theories, doctrine or evidence. Actually, I also change my mind due to inspiration from the Spirit,as well. I do not 'give up my opinion' because some Christian tells me that I am not really a Christian unless I accept certain ideas about God or His Word, however.

The heterosexual part is right, and God knows it's difficult to be married. That's why He had Paul write at the end of Ephesians 5 three times that husbands are to love their wives - because this will make them (the husbands) like Jesus in their love - and wives to reverence their husbands - because this will challenge every Eve-like fibre in a woman's thinking - and make her like Jesus. This is God's plan.

Here is another literal interpretation of what Paul says about marriage that has everyone totally screwed up in their understanding of marriage. Paul was simply saying 'love' in different ways - he was trying to include the husband and the wife specifically - so he presented two forms of love - one for each of them. But instead of just realizing that God wants us to love each other in marriage, we have decided that wives and husbands are supposed to take on different roles - this has caused so many problems for couples who just want to be happy and please God! Mercy!

There is no such thing as 'homosexual marriage'. It's not even an oxymoron. It's a misnomer that has no parallel with heterosexual marriage in God's sight. And, there isn't any part of homosexual commitment that pleases God while it is founded on their unnatural attraction to other males/females.

This is a denial of reality. What is happening is that two people of the same sex want to live together in a marriage relationship - the relationship is not addressed in the Bible - conservative Christians decide that one incident of rape / sexual assault in the OT and one incident of worldliness in the NT address modern homosexual relationships and therefore, homosexual marriage must not really exist. This is not being Godly! It is being crazy! Also, this has nothing to do with the sinfulness of same sex sexual relationships being sinful or not - I believe there is enough evidence to prove that it is sinful - what this really has to do with is fear. Christians are afraid of becoming a minority - we are afraid that if we lose control of the behavior of nonchristians, somehow we will lose our faith or favor with God. I have more faith in God than that - He is faithful - we do not need to fear.

As far as the kind of provision which is made by the law for heterosexual couples to be provided for after the death of a spouse, all of those privileges can be set in legal documents separately from calling it 'marriage' between homosexual partners. The changes to the law brought about by creating an instrument of homosexual marriage only make it easier for the beaurocrats and lawyers. They don't really care about people. It changes nothing in God's sight.

Why do you care if nonbelievers call their relationship marriage or not? WHY? Mormons call themselves Christian - IT DOES NOT MATTER. It is between the nonbeliever and God.

A classic work of liberal nonsense....everything is negotiable,no absolutes and an excuse for everything.

tarmack09 · Jun 7, 2012

brightmorningstar said:
aspen2,
Sorry as I said, I can love other men but I don’t have any sexual based activity with them. Love is the same, it’s the sex that is different.

No they aren’t. You were asked what more they were and as usual you didn’t answer.

tarmack09,
The Bible doesn’t contradict itself at all if one understands it holistically and in context, though it does appear to contradict itself all over the place without the bigger picture.

You are lurching from one thing to another. At times when the Israelites were supposed to be an example for God and surrounding tribes were fighting them to destroy them and replace God, ie Exodus and Numbers, God did instruct the Israelites to do the same back. Do you have a problem with that? Remember because of the fall people are already dead in sin. Do you have a problem with that?
I think Zechariah is a spiritual message primarily.

Yes but you still have not answered me.. How can this pastor preach about killing gays....what about rape and plunder that's in the bible too and its "NOT OK" in RL. It seems like he is picking and choosing his passages. Almost like he is trying to get everyone on board and then he is going to whip out the Zechariah verse. Again another pathetic attempt at preaching the bible by Republicans. Read (Zechariah 14:1-2) again!

lawrance · Jun 7, 2012

dragonfly said:
Hi,

I'm in the UK and can't make any sense of the link in the OP; I get a page filled with British news. Is there another way into this clip?

In the meantime, let me comment that there is a huge difference between provisions of the Old Testament law, and the New Covenant, both of which were given to 'Israel' - the people - first. Non-Israelites could join Israel through a series of rituals (including physical circumcision), but there were certain sins - such as practising adultery, homosexuality, other forms of idolatry, and murder - which incurred the death penalty. It is always disappointing to hear of a pastor who doesn't really understand what Jesus accomplished for us in His life, death and resurrection.

This: Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men [and] brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets'.

Paul is reminding them, in verse 40, of what Moses told them about 'that Prophet' (their Messiah) in Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him.

Peter refers to this consequence mentioned by Moses, in his sermon after the healing of the man at the Gate Beautiful, in Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

For Christians, I think 1 Timothy 4 covers the present distress. We are to be different from those who are seduced into worshipping devils. Paul ends the chapter with this exhortation: 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Our resonsibility to the world is to tell them of the 'better' Covenant through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit who gives power to live free from sin. This gospel is to all people, whatever their ethinic inheritance, whatever their sins.

Did Jesus come to abolish the Law ? he said not at all !
Only Satan is involved in abolishing the Law, as why would God created the Law and then toss it away, as if he got it wrong some how ?
Remember Jesus gave us the key.

brightmorningstar · Jun 8, 2012

Apsen2,

I am not obligated to answer any of your posts and I will not be manipulated or goaded into doing so; nor will I feel pressured to provide you answer after answer until you feel satisfied. I am in this discussion for recreational purposes - I could careless who wins.

This is the liberal way, it refuses to address the questions that expose its error. It is not a rude or offensive question, it is about a claim being false and an invite to justify it in respect to the critiism. In fact you have attempted to answer it ...

Homosexual relationships are like heterosexual relationships - they involve sex, intimacy, friendship, companionship, partnership, and love.

Obviously not, when I loved another man as a best friend and lived with him, but not in anyway sexually, is that a homosexual relationship? Not according to your definition, because your definiton has sex in it. If not, is it heterosexual? Not according to your definition if heterosexual is opposite sex. If it is neither, what it is? The friendship was intimate, and loving, but it didn’t involve sex. Of course homoSEXual relationships are defined by sexual activity.
You say you are a believer on this point but then show you are confused.

I know Christians like to pretend that homosexual relationships are all about selfish sex,

Let me stop you there, so do you now accpet they are in the light of my comments above?

It is funny, when I point out the errors in your logic - you accuse me of arguing for homosexuality or using lgbt arguments –

Sorry but you are using the same lgbt arguments.

You are forgetting that just because God has declared homosexuality to a sin doesn't mean that all heterosexual marriages are RIGHT

This is nonsense again. Firstly marriage is man and woman, you don’t need to say ‘heterosexual’ marriage, and doing so is what lgbt activists do so as to imply there is such a thing as homosexual marriage. Secondly, in what way are marriages not right? Sure many fall short in love and commitment, some are sadly downright abuse, but they are still marriage in the respect of man and woman.

Homosexuality is a sin because God declared it to be sinful,

Yes of course and the reason is God created woman for man, so it is doing stuff contrary to what God created people for; and anatomically it is a perversion of what God created. The problem is people have decided what is anatomically dysfunctional is normal and the same as what is anatomically functional.

Why do Christians have to demonize sinners??

Would it not be better to focus on God’s word instead of wondering who is a Christian or not. The Christian should not be marginalising any non-believer they should be loving and serving all non-believers.

tarmack09,

Yes but you still have not answered me..

Apart from the fact I have.

How can this pastor preach about killing gays

Because he is looking at what the OT law says, thats why he is preaching about it.

what about rape and plunder that's in the bible too and its "NOT OK" in RL.

Neither is that God's purpose , God allows people to commit indecent homosexual acts and rape and plunder because He has given freewill.

It seems like he is picking and choosing his passages.

Yes I think I would agree with you, he is picking and choosing, but I trhink you are as well.

dragonfly · Jun 8, 2012

Hi tarmack09,

In post #40 I answered your question about the three passages in the OT which you put to brightmorningstar. I don't know why my following post to aspen2 was not separated out properly, but I realise it's confusing to the eye, hence this note.

brightmorningstar · Jun 8, 2012

Apsen2,
I shall address your post #46 in two parts.

. IMO it is advocating, no; actually, making it mandatory for people to deny, and eventually lose their own opinions and take on the opinion of conservative Christian culture; except they must call it God's opinion and believe it to be true.

The scripture says that through Christ our minds are renewed and transformed, Romans 12 "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is —his good, pleasing and perfect will."
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
Also Colossians 3 "Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Mark 22 "And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins."
Do you see this as losing ones own opinions? If so yes, I would say mandatory is the case.
Do you think what the scriptures say, like the ones above are conservative Christian culture rather than God’s opinion? If what the scripture says is not God’s opinion to you, what is? Is it written down anywhere by any chance?

This is absolutely unacceptable to me

What the scripture says as the word of God?

and is the reason many educated people reject Christianity.

And many educated people also receive it.

It is also why so many people outside of Christianity see Christians as anti-intellectual, ignorant, and blind to all evidence discovered by human thought / study / reason (science, archaeology, geology, etc), which goes against conservative Christian culture.

Well the gospel is foolishness to the world’s wisdom. But when eminent scientists say that pointing out a man has a mother is bigotry and unfactual one might well question whose opinions are really ignorant.

As for me, I completely and utterly reject the mandate to check my brain at the door, put blinders on, and deny reality in order to tow the Christian line.

I don’t see how the scriptures are saying that. What the scriptures are saying is when one accepts Christ as the way the truth and the life then their opinions will be the same. How else? One cant believe Christ is the truth if one doesnt believe what He claims is the truth .

Just like scientists can be wrong about their interpretation of evidence - so can Christians about God and His Word.

But neither the evidence nor God’s word changes according to the interpretation, the interpretation is still based on the evidence or the word right?

There is simply no mandate for us to take on ancient, arcane ideas about the world from antiquity.

Depends what you mean. Give an example please. I am thinking the ancient Hebrew scriptures Jesus says He didn’t abolish or change one iota, so if He who is the truth says they are fulfilled they are the truth rather than arcane for those who believe them.

Absolutely false. Do you realize what you are saying? You are demanding that people deny reality.

On the contrary the scripture is reality.

All reality that is not covered in the Bible

I would agree, the Bible acknowledges that.

Don't think to hard about the Flood or the Ark - you might entertain some doubt - which we all know is the Devil trying to deceive us!

Of course it is, Jesus acknowledged the flood, even some historians, archeologists and geologists reckon on evidence for it.

It doesn't matter that the story is absolutely impossible without a complete suspension of all natural law

Well who do you think God is if He created the universe and can’t suspend the laws of nature? Where is the logic in that? Yet you talk of reason!

I have no problem changing my mind if presented with reasonable theories, doctrine or evidence.

Well that is not faith in Christ, that is faith in self wisdom and discernment

I also change my mind due to inspiration from the Spirit,as well.

or not as the case may be as the Spirit guides in truth by reminding what Christ said and did.

I do not 'give up my opinion' because some Christian tells me that I am not really a Christian unless I accept certain ideas about God or His Word, however.

No one can force anyone to give up their opinion, but by definition their opinion might mean they aren’t Christian. Much of the counterfit christianity we see in the west today concerns itself with posing its views as Christian, which according to the Biblical testimony of Christ, are anti-Christian.

Aspen2
Part 2. This is crucial because it gives a specific. On the one hand you propose reasoned evidence for belief, and then when we come to same sex relations you abandon the physical anatomical evidence to form your opinion.
That people claim the validity of homosexual relations on the basis of loving is opinion because others claim it isn’t about loving but sex. However the physical functional anatomy is not speculation but observable reality as evidence.

This is a denial of reality.

On the contrary it is reality.

What is happening is that two people of the same sex want to live together in a marriage relationship

So they don’t believe the Bible that marriage is man and woman. Ok so that is a direct rejection of God’s word, especially as two people of the same sex in a sexual relationship like that which occurs in marriage is error and wicked suppression of the truth.

- the relationship is not addressed in the Bible –

Which? Marriage is, it is countenanced, and same sex relations are, they are condemned.

modern homosexual relationships

But sexual relationships between man and man or woman and woman are error throughout the Bible. What do you mean by modern homosexual relationships, they include sexual relationships between men do they not, so they are error and a wicked suppression of the truth. .

and therefore, homosexual marriage must not really exist.

They don’t if one believes God and Hs word and why not, marriage as man and woman is functional for reproduction, relationships between men is sexually dysfunctional

This is not being Godly!

On the contrary, it is being Godly, that is exactly what the scripture says.

It is being crazy!

On the contrary it is crazy to think something anatomically dysfunctional is normal and equal. That many people are starting to think that way isnt unusual, history describes cultures doing so, and so does the Bible.

Christians are afraid of becoming a minority - we are afraid that if we lose control of the behavior of nonchristians, somehow we will lose our faith or favor with God. I have more faith in God than that - He is faithful - we do not need to fear.

Yes for those who want to compromise with the cultural errors, fear causes them to do so. But the truth is still the truth and held by Christians, most of whom in the world are in a minority.

Why do you care if nonbelievers call their relationship marriage or not?

Probably for the same reason you care that Christians shouldn’t believe the flood. It obvious does matter.

bytheway · Jun 8, 2012

aspen2 said:
This is an opinion board. If you feel uncomfortable reading people's opinions, why are you here?

If your uncomfortable enough with my opinion to reply then why are you here?

dragonfly · Jun 8, 2012

That people claim the validity of homosexual relations on the basis of loving is opinion because others claim it isn’t about loving but sex. However the physical functional anatomy is not speculation but observable reality as evidence.

Great point! Any genito-alimentary connection is not coitus as God intends it.

I have no problem changing my mind if presented with reasonable theories, doctrine or evidence.

You don't need 'theories' if you're interested in truth. Theoretical constructs are devices to introduce and foster doubt in the minds of unbelievers.

The BIble says you have the 'evidence' within yourself when God speaks and faith rises in you. I am convinced that the unbelief which follows hot on the heels of fresh faith, corresponds to Mark 4 4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. Then there is the double witness of Paul and John:

2 Corinthians 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you. 13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present [us] with you. 15 For all things [are] for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. 16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding [and] eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

The evidence is within the person who knows they have heard God speak to them (however He chooses to make Himself known). Any denial of that evidence will be held against the person unless they repent and believe.

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest [of faith] to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

As for doctrine, I think Paul nailed it this way: 1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words - the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth ...'

By the way, the word 'doctrine' appears 49 times in the New Testament. I would be hard to overstate the importance the apostles put on it.

aspen · Jun 8, 2012

BMS

I decided to read your response to me without reviewing my post in it's entirety beforehand - based on the quotes you included from my post, I could barely recognize my own writing. You have succeeded once again, to chop my sentences up and completely ignore all context from my writing. Don't you get tired of responding to your own reconstruction of my posts rather than what I am actually writing - what a waste of time. Also, in many cases it appears that your do not bother to read my entire post before you begin to carve it it up - I can tell because many of the statements I make early in my posts are addressed later - yet you respond as if I never address them at all. These are tactics people use when they want to win an argument, while taking no prisoners - why are you afraid to simply discuss the issues present instead of trying to discredit me and my very faith in God?.

BMS said:

This is the liberal way, it refuses to address the questions that expose its error. It is not a rude or offensive question, it is about a claim being false and an invite to justify it in respect to the critiism. In fact you have attempted to answer it ...

More goading huh? Give it up. You've even admitted that I have already addressed the issue you raised - just because my answer was not liberal enough to ridicule to your satisfaction or conservative enough for you to accept, doesn't mean I avoided the question.

Also, at least I address your remarks in context and quoting complete sentences.

Obviously not, when I loved another man as a best friend and lived with him, but not in anyway sexually, is that a homosexual relationship? Not according to your definition, because your definiton has sex in it. If not, is it heterosexual? Not according to your definition if heterosexual is opposite sex. If it is neither, what it is? The friendship was intimate, and loving, but it didn’t involve sex. Of course homoSEXual relationships are defined by sexual activity.
You say you are a believer on this point but then show you are confused.

First, nice job depicting the traits I listed, which are involved in a homosexual relationship, as a complete definition. Nice to be misrepresented so early in your response to my post. Of course, I am simply describing traits of all intimate relationships - sex should be excluded from all intimate friendships, regardless of gender. If you are engaged in sex, you are no longer roommates or simply friends. Ah, but I love that muddy water, you are trying create!!

Sorry but you are using the same lgbt arguments. This is nonsense again. Firstly marriage is man and woman, you don’t need to say ‘heterosexual’ marriage, and doing so is what lgbt activists do so as to imply there is such a thing as homosexual marriage. Secondly, in what way are marriages not right? Sure many fall short in love and commitment, some are sadly downright abuse, but they are still marriage in the respect of man and woman.

So what? My point isn't that I am angry that you are accusing me of using LGBT arguments - I was simply pointing out your attempt to discredit me when I address your faulty logic, by associating me with LGBT activists. If LGBT activists happened to notice the same faulty logic I have noticed in conservative rhetoric, it only means it is even more obvious than I first thought.

Yes of course and the reason is God created woman for man, so it is doing stuff contrary to what God created people for; and anatomically it is a perversion of what God created. The problem is people have decided what is anatomically dysfunctional is normal and the same as what is anatomically functional.

No, I do not think that is it. I think some people are attracted to the same gender and if they are outside the church, it should not matter to Christians. And if you really think that homosexuality is unique to humans, you've never owned a dog or been to the zoo or watched the Discovery channel. Apparently, animals have decided waht is anatomically dysfunctional is normal, as well.....

Would it not be better to focus on God’s word instead of wondering who is a Christian or not. The Christian should not be marginalising any non-believer they should be loving and serving all non-believers.

I agree. So why do Christians have to demonize sinners? BTW, I have never called your Christianity into question - so why do you feel the need to question mine? Perhaps you should take your own advice and focus on God's word instead.

The scripture says that through Christ our minds are renewed and transformed,

Do you see this as losing ones own opinions? If so yes, I would say mandatory is the case.
Do you think what the scriptures say, like the ones above are conservative Christian culture rather than God’s opinion? If what the scripture says is not God’s opinion to you, what is? Is it written down anywhere by any chance?

I already addressed this issue in detail in my post - please review my understanding of Paul's description of a renewing of the mind. Sharing the opinions of ancient Jewish and Christian people and calling it God' opinion is not going to save us - a renewing of the mind has to do with loving God and neighbor, not opinions on doctrine.

And many educated people also receive it.

Which means nothing. My point is that conservative Christianity places a stumbling block in the way of people who exercise their God given ability to think about the world they live in. Instead of sticking to the entire point of Christianity - to love God and neighbor, conservative add all kinds of requirements - the most drastic one is that we need to give up what we know to be true about the world and adopt an ancient cultural understanding.

Well the gospel is foolishness to the world’s wisdom. But when eminent scientists say that pointing out a man has a mother is bigotry and unfactual one might well question whose opinions are really ignorant.

Yep - that verse has been used to justify all kinds of ignorance, antisocial behavior, and idiocy within conservative Christian circles. I see you have really attempted to reach out for a mainstream scientific opinion for you example - gold star for you!

I don’t see how the scriptures are saying that. What the scriptures are saying is when one accepts Christ as the way the truth and the life then their opinions will be the same.

Our opinions about what? How the Earth was created? How the Ark saved humanity and all the animals? How to be married to multiple wives? How to punish your creation? How to eat in the desert? How to treat women? How to treat Jewish people?

Or is the Bible simply giving us a picture of humanity with all of its blemishes? It seems to me the Bible presents the best biography of humanity ever told - triumphs and utter failure - depravity and ignorance - pride and humility. The best part is humanity's view of ourselves and God - the nationalism, the partisanship, the anthropomorphism of God. All of this is critical information for us to know so that we can allow God to renew our minds - to teach us how to love Him, our neighbors, and ourselves - nothing else matters.

How else? One cant believe Christ is the truth if one doesnt believe what He claims is the truth .

It is your Modern Western mindset that tells you that. For the first 1700 years of Christianity the miracles in the Bible were viewed in the light of God's sovereignty, not His character. Today, we spend so much time trying to fit the Bible into a scientific framework, we have missed the entire point. The most important question regarding the Bible is not 'is it true?' Instead, it is 'will it transform?'

But neither the evidence nor God’s word changes according to the interpretation, the interpretation is still based on the evidence or the word right?

Christians are not always right about their interpretation of the scriptures. Have you seen the demon-like horns on all the Biblical figures in the Sistine Chapel? The word 'halo' used to be translated as 'horns' - pretty embarrassing, but it isn't going to send Michaelangelo to Hell.

Depends what you mean. Give an example please. I am thinking the ancient Hebrew scriptures Jesus says He didn’t abolish or change one iota, so if He who is the truth says they are fulfilled they are the truth rather than arcane for those who believe them.

Depends on what you think is important. I am only interested in the relationship between humanity and God, spouse, neighbor, and self described in the Bible - all the rest is included to enhance the story.

On the contrary the scripture is reality.

Yes - it tells us the real story of ourselves and our relationship with each other, and God. When modern science contradicts the ancient understanding of how the world works - I go with the evidence.

Of course it is, Jesus acknowledged the flood, even some historians, archeologists and geologists reckon on evidence for it.

I have little doubt there was some sort of Flood - but that is not the point of the story. When ancient people heard the story of the Flood they did not ask if it really happened or not - they thought about God's sovereignty.

Well who do you think God is if He created the universe and can’t suspend the laws of nature? Where is the logic in that? Yet you talk of reason!

That was not my point. For ancient people, God's omnipotence was the most important part of the story - they were obsessed with knowing that their God was the most powerful God in the land. Today, all the emphasis on God's power is actually a hindrance for many nonbelievers - it is important to emphasis the parts of the story that speak to people where they are at.

Unfortunately, instead of conservative Christians trying to meet people where they are at - they decide to be defensive! They seem more concerned that nonbelievers conform to God's Word than in the transformation of the nonbeliever's heart. It is as if, people were created for the Bible, rather than the Bible created to direct people to God! If the Bible is true - it needs no defense. I suggest we start using it, rather than wasting time defending it.

Well that is not faith in Christ, that is faith in self wisdom and discernment
or not as the case may be as the Spirit guides in truth by reminding what Christ said and did.

False dichotomy. Truth is truth. Instead of fighting the evidence found in the fossil record and the geological record, for example, why not consider that we may be misinterpreting what the Bible seems to be saying about the age of the Earth? The funny thing is - because conservative Christians have over identified themselves with the Bible and what God is really saying - they have backed themselves into a corner - admitting that their interpretation may be wrong is the same thing a saying the Bible or God is wrong! And to cover up that terrible insecurity, they make excuses like, 'if one thing in the Bible is wrong, how are we to decide which part is right?' The really scary part is that the Pharisees also believed that they were the final word when it came to God - which is why they could never admit they were wrong about anything. In fact, they choose to kill God rather than admit that God (themselves) were wrong.
-
No one can force anyone to give up their opinion, but by definition their opinion might mean they aren’t Christian.

In case you ask me to provide proof that you are questioning my Christianity - here it is. The suggestion is that if I am not willing to take on the conservative Christian mindset (God's opinion) than I too, may not be a Christian.

Much of the counterfeit christianity we see in the west today concerns itself with posing its views as Christian, which according to the Biblical testimony of Christ, are anti-Christian.

Just because other Christians question your authority to define and dictate God's opinion, doesn't mean that they are counterfeit.

BMS said:

Part 2. This is crucial because it gives a specific. On the one hand you propose reasoned evidence for belief, and then when we come to same sex relations you abandon the physical anatomical evidence to form your opinion.

Ridiculous. Now you have chosen to ignore that I have already stated that homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible and should not be practiced by Christians - apparently, that is not good enough - I must also understand the conservative Christian reasoning for why God decided to make it a sin.....

That people claim the validity of homosexual relations on the basis of loving is opinion because others claim it isn’t about loving but sex.

Who? heterosexuals/closeted homosexuals?

However the physical functional anatomy is not speculation but observable reality as evidence.

Which is about as convincing as 'God didn't make Adam and Steve; He made Adam and Eve!'

So they don’t believe the Bible that marriage is man and woman. Ok so that is a direct rejection of God’s word, especially as two people of the same sex in a sexual relationship like that which occurs in marriage is error and wicked suppression of the truth.

Why is it so hard for you to accept that nonbelievers reject God's Word? You sound like a kid who can't understand why their Jewish friend doesn't celebrate Christmas!

Which? Marriage is, it is countenanced, and same sex relations are, they are condemned.

Careful, if you base your understanding of marriage on the Bible, you could be defending polygamy.

But sexual relationships between man and man or woman and woman are error throughout the Bible. What do you mean by modern homosexual relationships, they include sexual relationships between men do they not, so they are error and a wicked suppression of the truth. .

Yep, for nonbelievers. Equal adult relationship rather than teacher/student or stranger rape.

They don’t if one believes God and Hs word and why not, marriage as man and woman is functional for reproduction, relationships between men is sexually dysfunctional

And what about for those people who do not believe?

On the contrary, it is being Godly, that is exactly what the scripture says.

Since when are nonbelievers required to be Godly?

On the contrary it is crazy to think something anatomically dysfunctional is normal and equal. That many people are starting to think that way isnt unusual, history describes cultures doing so, and so does the Bible.

How can 'crazy' be 'usual'?

Yes for those who want to compromise with the cultural errors, fear causes them to do so. But the truth is still the truth and held by Christians, most of whom in the world are in a minority.

Really? You really believe that it is more courageous to enforce the cultural norms of the day rather than try to change the norms? Now that is crazy...
I seem to remember Jesus being the one crucified, not the Pharisees......hmmm

Probably for the same reason you care that Christians shouldn’t believe the flood. It obvious does matter.

oh brother.....here is a suggestion - next time just re-write my post completely in your image and then answer it. Why bother to pretend to read what I have written? It would be so much easier to get my point across to the board if you wrote it for me. These last sentences are a great start!

dragonfly · Jun 9, 2012

Hi brightmorningstar and aspen,

BMS
Yes of course and the reason is God created woman for man, so it is doing stuff contrary to what God created people for; and anatomically it is a perversion of what God created. The problem is people have decided what is anatomically dysfunctional is normal and the same as what is anatomically functional.

aspen
No, I do not think that is it. I think some people are attracted to the same gender and if they are outside the church, it should not matter to Christians.

Hi aspen,

You seem to have forgotten that disciples of Jesus Christ were commanded by Him to go out and make disciples of all men (and woman and children). The 'modern' attitude from those involved in moves towards a one world church, is quietly to ignore the eternal outcome for all the souls who face everlasting damnation because Christians didn't evangelise. The Roman Catholic Church is leading this process, (and the ongoing counter reformation), while publicly trying to appear as similar to evangelical Protestantism as it can so that new converts will not be able to tell the difference. Catholicism s ensnare them with its double standards, and, while offering no gospel of victory over sin, renders the death of Jesus Christ meaningless to its followers. The more the public is pounded with relativism and pluralism, and other 'isms', the less easy it is for them to believe that God has an absolute standard which will never change, with regard to sin.

The eighteenth chapter of Leviticus states five times (five, the number of grace) that if the Israelites particpate in the idolatry of the people who inhabit the land, the land will vomit them out, just 'as it spued out the nations that [were] before you'. This spiritual law has not changed. Sin matters to everyone.

My point is that conservative Christianity places a stumbling block in the way of people who exercise their God given ability to think about the world they live in. Instead of sticking to the entire point of Christianity - to love God and neighbor, conservative add all kinds of requirements - the most drastic one is that we need to give up what we know to be true about the world and adopt an ancient cultural understanding.

Actually, I think you're talking about the renewing of the mind, the necessity for which is universal to Christians. It's not the fault of 'conservative Christianity' that you are stumbled by their viewpoints. Everyone has a past to work through. That's what the renewing of the mind is about.

Regarding 'an ancient cultural understanding', I'm afraid you've fallen for the semantics of the philosophy of the current age, if you believe that. The next time you hear a spokesperson for science, psychology or philosophy telling you what some 'ancient' person was thinking - based purely on the guesswork which is entertained by archeologists, evolutionists and atheists - ask yourself how they can possibly know what a person was thinking all those years ago. Having said that, there are clues in the Bible, and in the writings which have been deciphered from 'ancient' times, but unless they are being quoted verbatiim, they are not 'evidence', like reading a conversation between God and a person in the Bible, is 'evidence' of a thought process. Never forget that God is the one who created creatures with all the primitive instincts which drive us along from day to day.

Christians are not always right about their interpretation of the scriptures. Have you seen the demon-like horns on all the Biblical figures in the Sistine Chapel? The word 'halo' used to be translated as 'horns' - pretty embarrassing, but it isn't going to send Michaelangelo to Hell.

What gives you the idea that Michaelangelo was a Christian? Here is a presentation about the interpretation of part of the chapel painting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnpH5wUNWjw

I have little doubt there was some sort of Flood - but that is not the point of the story. When ancient people heard the story of the Flood they did not ask if it really happened or not - they thought about God's sovereignty.

I'm not sure if this is what you meant by 'they did not ask if it really happened or not', but you're right, they didn't ask that, because there wasn't one person alive who was not descended from the only survivors. In fact, Noah's sons were still alive when God spoke to Abram. No wonder Job took his role as priest for his household, as seriously as possible. They were in no doubt about both the Flood and God's sovereignty! By the way, what do you mean by 'God's sovereignty'?

That was not my point. For ancient people, God's omnipotence was the most important part of the story - they were obsessed with knowing that their God was the most powerful God in the land. Today, all the emphasis on God's power is actually a hindrance for many nonbelievers - it is important to emphasis the parts of the story that speak to people where they are at.

'they were obsessed with knowing that their God was the most powerful God in the land'. How do you know this?

'Today, all the emphasis on God's power is actually a hindrance for many nonbelievers'. Now you've lost me. Why would anyone believe in a God who was powerless, or, less powerful than another god? Why would one expect salvation from God unless the death of Jesus Christ really did satisfy His intolerance for sin? Surely, the gospel is only good news because God took the plight of the human race to heart, and overcame on our behalf?

Careful, if you base your understanding of marriage on the Bible, you could be defending polygamy.

You would only be defending polygamy from the part of the Bible in which it was practised. There are many examples of one man one woman alongside polygamy, in scripture.

aspen · Jun 9, 2012

Well dragonfly,

Perhaps our conversation has come to an end. If you do not recognize my church to be Christian or even to be antichrist; and you do not recognize me as having a renewing of the mind; we are no longer able to speak with each others as equals.

It is clear to me that you are a kind person, but may not be able to see where I am coming from.

Thanks for the conversation.

Jon-Marc · Jun 9, 2012

Homosexuality, like any other sin, can be forgiven. Such people are lost sinners who need Christ. A preacher saying they should be killed is not my idea of a Christian. I certainly don't condone homosexuality any more than I condone any other sin. However, if the government started killing sinners, who would be safe or saved?

dragonfly · Jun 10, 2012

Hello, aspen,

Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ and grace and peace to you.

Well dragonfly,

Perhaps our conversation has come to an end. If you do not recognize my church to be Christian or even to be antichrist; and you do not recognize me as having a renewing of the mind; we are no longer able to speak with each others as equals.

It is clear to me that you are a kind person, but may not be able to see where I am coming from.

Thanks for the conversation.

I don't think so, although of course, you are free to ignore anything I write to you.

'My point is that conservative Christianity places a stumbling block in the way of people who exercise their God given ability to think about the world they live in. Instead of sticking to the entire point of Christianity - to love God and neighbor, conservative add all kinds of requirements - the most drastic one is that we need to give up what we know to be true about the world and adopt an ancient cultural understanding.'

Actually, I think you're talking about the renewing of the mind, the necessity for which is universal to Christians. It's not the fault of 'conservative Christianity' that you are stumbled by their viewpoints. Everyone has a past to work through. That's what the renewing of the mind is about.

Regarding 'an ancient cultural understanding', I'm afraid you've fallen for the semantics of the philosophy of the current age, if you believe that. The next time you hear a spokesperson for science, psychology or philosophy telling you what some 'ancient' person was thinking - based purely on the guesswork which is entertained by archeologists, evolutionists and atheists - ask yourself how they can possibly know what a person was thinking all those years ago. Having said that, there are clues in the Bible, and in the writings which have been deciphered from 'ancient' times, but unless they are being quoted verbatiim, they are not 'evidence', like reading a conversation between God and a person in the Bible, is 'evidence' of a thought process. Never forget that God is the one who created creatures with all the primitive instincts which drive us along from day to day.

1 Corinthians 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them [is] without signification.

Despite all my previous comments, I have neither said nor thought that your mind is not being renewed. In fact, I've had the impression that it is. This discussion might be part of the process. But I have commented on what you've expressed in this and other discussions which show your mind (which I believe you have expressed honestly) to be at variance with the words of both Jesus Christ and the written word of God. All I want to be sure is, that you understand from the scriptures that you do not have a choice over the work of renewing your mind, if God is to believe that you are coming into greater agreement with Him. Believe me, I know it's not easy. He has wrestled me off many a dearly-held proposition. And it's true, there is a season when you think you are losing your mind (the fear of this, you have already expressed) but that is a lie. This world has it all backwards and upside down, wherever it disagrees with Him. God wants to straighten us all out, and conform us to the image of His Son.

In the spirit that you have been expressing with regard to warning homosexuals who practise, while calling themselves 'brother' (similar to 1 Cor 5:11), I am lovingly warning you of the necessity of seeking God persistently until you have come into intellectual agreement with Him, so that your heart is according with His written word, (heart and mind usually being the same word in NT Greek). Contrary to so-called academic opinion, it is not intellectually unrespectable to agree with God. Paul's statement on where that begins goes like this:

Romans 1: '... that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead...' (Which immediately puts the theory of evolution out of the frame.)

While you actively co-operate with the religious organisation to which you have affiliated yourself in the matter of its philosophy, accepting its word over God's even and especially when it is at variance with God's, you will end up in deep, deep, spiritual trouble. That is not an understatement.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.... Romans 8:29; Ephesians 1:4, 5, 6.

My heartfelt concern is that you may not take this issue seriously enough until it's too late to retrieve yourself from final deception. If you love God, you will love His truth - even though it cuts across every part of your fleshly mind. If you don't love truth, Paul observes God's response to this attitude in his prophecy about the end of 'that Wicked' whom the Lord 'shall destroy with the brightness of His coming':

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed .... 9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (Romans 1:28 and 32)

2 Corinthians 4:2 But [we] have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Regarding anti-Christ, the correct definition is: putting another person instead of Christ Himself - putting any word or construct instead of God's. You can look at the Greek to confirm that.

Usually when I refer to Catholicism, I am referring to the religious organisation which over many centuries has carefully nurtured its image and influence, creating a body of doctrine which God cannot endorse. Not only you, nor I, but no-one can find 'Catholicism' lining up with the gospel in scripture. It's in the New Jerusalem Bible, though. Of course, this is not the only organisation with a Bible which has been altered slightly to bring it into line with false doctrine. In that sense, I'm not singling it out above Seventh Day Adventist, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, ... or others. And I'm not saying either, that there are no saved people in those organisations. But, most of those who are saved, eventually leave because they 'hear' God calling them out, (Revelation 18:4) or they feel compromised.

There is obedience which means doing something, and there is obedience which means not doing something. God sees our heart's attitude to His word to us, and He puts the power and responsibility in our own hands to make our response.

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Put another way, what we do is what we want to do. It is the expression of our most primitive intent. Hebrews 4:12, 13.

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