What is faith?
- Thread starter RichardBurger
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I suppose it is because works do not lead to salvation unless it is faith in the work that Jesus has already accomplished on the cross.
It looks to me that you feel you have to pay God back to satisfy your fleshly desire to save yourself by what you do. It is that same feeling during Christmas when you recieve a gift you feel you have to give one in return. That makes a gift a purchased item. The work for the child of God under grace is to teach the gospel of grace so that more people can see it and place their faith in it. For everyone that comes to God because you have given them the message of God's grace is a fruit that you have produced for God. God has already said your works for salvation are as filthy as dirty rags.
Good writing but is it the truth? According to my Bible scrriptures we are accounted righteous before God, not by what we do to be righteous but by His righteousness imputed on our account. WE should be testifing as to His righteousness, not our own.
When you use "faith without works is dead" as your source for teaching salvation then you are saying that unless you have works you are not a child of God and then turn around and say that works have nothing to do with it. That sound like a contradiction to me. I thought Jesus was our judge! He determines who is and who isn't baring fruit for Him.
But the religious think that trying not to commit sin in the flesh is a fruit. Fruit for who??? Is it their payment for their salvation?
Not commiting sin in the flesh is a by-product of walking with Jesus. We are not seeking to not sin per se....we are seeking to walk with God in the Spirit. Anyone can claim a doctrinal salvation based on something they read...most will do this. But they still don't know Jesus or the type of life He gives to those who have surrendered their lives to Him. To use the mind to formulate a religious notion of salvation from reading verses is powerless to put the old sin nature to death and cause a new life to spring up. So I believe you when you say that your type of belief has no power over the flesh. It is made up from yourself...so you are still limited to yourself.
I disagree, according toi the dictionary Faith means;
Faith = to trust in, unquestioning belief, anything believed, complete trust, confidence, reliance,
See "belief", "trust", "confidence"
We are saved because we believe, have faith in, trust in, confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross to reconcile us to God; we believe His promises.
So if a person wants to place their faith, trust, and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross to save them that is not enought under your theology, right? Faith in what Jesus did on the cross does not save a person and does not meet you idea of salvation, right?
That means that those who are honest with God and know that they still sin in the flesh will not be saved, right?
Exactly...WE are not the final arbiters of salvation...God is. HE has mercy on whomever He wishes. Man does not have the power to become whatever he believes he is. No man can justify himself before God for any work he may have done or any belief he may entertain . You are simply exchanging self-righteousness by works for a self-righteousness through your own beliefs. This is also called self-delusion. Beliefs are not greater than works. If I believe a rock is moved without moving it..then I am in the realm of fiction. Have you ever tried just believing your way through a day of work without actually going to work? Would you still get real money for doing pretend work? So the gospel is about reality and truth. When we truly have the power to walk as Jesus walked THEN we can hope to live with Him as His Bride in the next age.
Notice that the publican did not return home having justified himself because of his repentance. Those that are honest do not make up man made salvation schemes then justify themselves because they believe in their own scheme.
Belief in the promises of God in Jesus Christ is much greater than the works of men. According to the scriptures it is our faith in Jesus that overcomes the world, not our works. But you don't seem to want to believe it.
Belief in the promises of God IS a work of man. The devil believes in the promises of God too. Now that his time is short he is working overtime on the church....and he's doing a pretty efficient job of it too!
I have never said that works lead to salvation...and I never will. All my faith is in what Christ did on the cross. I am daily almost faint with relief that salvation is because of Jesus' work, not my own, because I am well aware of my own sinfulness (and aware that there is probably much, much more I'm not aware of!).
I really, really don't feel I need to pay God back...I know there is absolutely nothing I have or can do that would be worth such a price. Even me on a good day...where I nailed everything...is ridiculous and disgusting in the eyes of God. My only hope is to have Christ's righteousness imputed to me.
But consider these verses:
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15 ESV)
For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:5-8 ESV)
I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (Ephesians 4:1-3 ESV)
Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. (Colossians 3:12-15 ESV)
On and on they go! We may not need to 'do' anything to earn or keep salvation, but you cannot deny that the Bible is full of things Christians ought to do. If they are not for our salvation, why then are we told to do them? Could it be because God asks it of us? Could it be that if a person has been given a new heart some of these things will automatically flow from them? Could it be that even saved as we are, we still live in a fallen world and a fallen body, and we must constantly fight to put sin to death...and sometimes the best way to kill sin is to think about good things: "whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you." (Philippians 4:8-9)
Didn't Paul say: And they glorified God because of me. (Galatians 1:24 ESV)
Sometimes Gods glory can be testified through us. It is never an accurate representation of his glory, wonder, goodness, mercy etc. But people who are not saved should be able to look at us, look at our lives, and see that there is something different...something joyous, something free.
And yes, absolutely we are not seen as righteous because of what we do...laughable to think that, right!? But in our actions...those actions that the bible describes...what we might call 'fruit'...we can show how righteous God is...not how righteous we are. The bible says that a Christian will be known by their fruit. This absolutely suggests that there is something that we do...an outpouring of grace given, not earned.
I can understand how you see that, but truly, it's not complicated and its not a contradiction! Unless a person is an ungrateful evil lump, they usually respond to kindness, yes? It's kind of like a 'pay it forward' idea. Jesus has done something amazing for us. It's something we didn't deserve and couldn't earn, but we have it all the same. Do we then take that, say 'fine', and then sit there, do nothing and see no change in our behaviour, actions or situation? Or do we take that wonderful gift, and try to make a difference? Do we share the wonder of the gift? Do we help others out just because we want to....maybe need to? The bible says that you will know a Christian by their fruit...how they live, how they respond to others, how echo's of Christ are seen in their own lives...do they seek to kill sin within them selves (only possible with the help of the Spirit of course!) This is what James is really saying...anyone can claim to 'have faith'. How many people sitting in Church, singing songs and 'claiming' Christ, do you think there are? People who love 'following the rules' to a degree, yet when you dig deeper it's all about them. How it makes them look...good, noble, a man with integrity. They like the position in the Church and where it can get them in their neighbourhood. But do these people have a personal relationship with Jesus? Do they have the Holy Spirit working in their hearts and lives? Do they think of Jesus and others before themselves (or at least working on that!). Are they bearing real fruit? This is what James means. Faith...real faith, a faith that has Jesus at the centre, middle and edge of their life, will bear fruit...it will lead to works that echo and show Christ's magnificence...his glory and grace. Any faith that doesn't do that, must be seen as a false faith.
This is how Paul and James fit together so well. Paul is hammering on how salvation comes through faith alone, not works (which we both know and agree with) and James is saying...yes and amen, but real faith bears fruit (which means people who would tend to take what Paul is teaching and use it as licence to live as they choose, sin and all, have no leg to stand on). This way the bible is covering thee two 'over-actions' that may come from the gospel....the tend to religious lawfulness, and the tend to licentiousness. The harmony and beauty of grace lies smack in the middle...freedom from sin and freedom from law...both of which we are helpless against (the law we cannot fulfil perfectly ourselves, and sin we cannot escape from ourselves).
I agree....the religious take the laws (or the ones they think suit them) and feel if they follow them, they'll be ok. They conveniently forget that Paul says if you rely on even one point of the law, God will require you to keep every single one of them perfectly. Kinda impossible.
But as for fruit...real fruit....don't you know a Christian person who you admire? Someone who is so kind, or so patient, or so forgiving? What about your friend who loaned you his car? Not everyone would do that. That is fruit...that is evidence that they were thinking of you and the grace of God before themselves. Naturally our sinful selves tend not to want to do those sort of things. 'It's too much effort'...'they won't appreciate it anyway'...'but that would put me out'...'what if they don't return it in time, I'd would be safer if I just kept it'. All these things are probably the natural response of the human heart. The difference in a Christian, is the Holy Spirit...He pushes us and grows us so that we end up learning joy and happiness in doing things like loaning a car.
I hope that helps clarify where I'm coming from a little better....
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