Apostasy and the lie of the tithe

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michaelvpardo

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I’d written a message quite a few years ago, one that was not well received by many who stand in the pulpits of our churches. This was a teaching on the practice of tithing within the church at large and a rebuke against those who would misuse law for personal gain or simply out of a faithless of heart.
I have heard some faithful teaching on the subject, but more commonly I’ve heard proud and self righteous men demanding that others meet a standard that the Lord has never required of the church. Some “churches” require members to “offer” a tithe of their income (10%) as a minimum to prove their faithfulness to the Lord. Sometimes this requirement is only a “proof” required for the holding of a church office, but the result of such requirements is commonly that the leadership of a church consists of members with substantial wealth, but not necessarily of substantial spiritual maturity. On the contrary, it is questionable as to whether such people even have a relationship with the Lord, not understanding grace or the manifold gifts of God.
So what was the purpose of the tithe to those who were under law? Abraham lived before the covenant of law and he gave a tenth of all that he’d gained from the Lord to “the priest of God Most High,” the man called Melchizedek, king of Salem. Why did he do this? In the context of scripture, Abraham made this grand gesture after rescuing his nephew, Lot from captivity. Lot had been captured together with others from the city of Sodom who were taken as booty during a war between the kings of those lands. Not only did Abraham make this offering to God through the priest Melchizedek, but he also refused an offer of reward from the king of Sodom, saying, “I will not take anything that is yours, lest you should say, “I have made Abram rich.”” Genesis 14:23 Considering Abrahams vow before the Lord from this passage, we can say that Abraham made this offering of a tenth of his possession to God’s priest in order to honor God as the One who had blessed him with wealth in His grace, not as a man for hire, working for reward.
God gave Abraham everything, Abraham gave a “tenth of all” back to God to honor Him with his wealth. Was God especially pleased with this? Was Abraham being generous with God? As God owns everything, the answer to the latter question is obviously not. Jesus made a point with regard to such giving, speaking of a widow who made a very small offering at the temple in Jerusalem. He said, “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.” In the context of the passage, Jesus had observed how “many who were rich” made large offerings to the treasury, yet He considered the widows offering to be more than all that those others had given because it revealed her heart; She desired to please God with her offering more than she desired to preserve her own flesh, offering her “whole livelihood.”
So again, was God well pleased with Abraham for giving back “a tenth of all?” King david wrote while in the Spirit of prophecy, “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears you have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require. Then I said, “Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. I delight to do Your will, O my God, and Your law is within my heart.” Psalm 40:6-8
The Author of the book of Hebrews quotes from these verses and others from the prophets as well in comparing the excellencies of the covenant made through the blood of Christ with the weakness of the covenant of law. Those verses speak to the heart of the Son of God who delights in doing His will and has His law written within His heart. We understand this as speaking specifically of Christ, but it speaks of more as well. If we have received Him by faith and have been made alive through His Spirit, then our desire has become His desire. That is, while our sanctification is a process which continues through out our lifetime, the renewing of our minds through the teaching of His word and conviction of His Spirit, our hearts were given new life in Him with the adoption through His Spirit by which we may love Him and gain the desire to do His will.
For this reason the Apostle Paul could write, “For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” Romans 7:22-23
So what’s the point? God is concerned about our sin, not because it damages Him, but because it damages us. Having said that, God is far less concerned with what we do, than with the condition of our relationship to Him, or simply put, the bent of our hearts. He has given us choice so that we may choose to do good rather than to do evil. In his sacrifice to redeem us from sin, He has given us His Spirit so that we might be filled with good desire to please Him, rather than evil desire to please ourselves.
If God was please with Abraham’s offering, it was not Abraham’s gift, but Abraham’s desire which He found pleasing. Abraham was “blessed” with wealth through God’s provision and honored God in returning a portion to Him, but Abraham’s wealth was not his reward, for God said to him, “Do not be afraid, Abram, I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”
From the day that we are born to the day that we die our lives are concerned with things; things that we need, things that we want, things that we have or don’t have, but all these things will perish with time and with us. The only thing which we take into eternity is our relationship with God and this is expressed in this life in our relationships to others. The Apostle John teaches this explicitly to us saying, “If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him; that he who loves God must love his brother also.” 1 John 4:20-21
Now, you might be asking, what does this have to do with tithing? I’ll have to answer with another question, what was the purpose of tithing under the law of Moses? If you examine the scripture you find very practical purpose in the tithes of the law. The building and maintenance of first the tabernacle and later of the temple required money for both labor and materials and this money came out of the treasury which subsisted almost entirely upon tithes and offerings. You’ll also find that in giving the land of Canaan to the tribes of Israel, God provided gifts or grants of land to all the men, the heads of households, in all the tribes of Israel except for the tribe of Levi. This land was not mortgaged or rented, but given as a perpetual inheritance and as the source of the livelihood for all the people. The Levites were not given this portion of the land because God took that tribe to be His servants in the tabernacle and then in the temple, both priests and laborers. The Levites were given their sustenance, their livelihood, from the tithes of all of the other tribes. God made provision for Levi through the tithes of his brothers under the law given by Moses.
When congregations find themselves dwindling in number and “church” revenues are falling off, many pulpits like to drag out the book of Malachi and point out how God is robbed by the withholding of tithes, but what did Malachi write as the word of the Lord, “For you have robbed Me, even this whole nation. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in My house.” Clearly, God did not need the food, but in withholding tithes, the tribes were defrauding their brethren of the house of Levi and in that, robbing God. This is one point that I’ve never heard from a pulpit, probably as it would seem to be self serving on the part of a paid clergy.
So what part does tithing have in the new Testament church? None.
Now, for many centuries there have been “churches” which have survived as institutions funded and grown largely through the practice of tithing and other even more questionable fund raising methods. The leadership of such institutions love tithing as it places obligatory demands to provide for regular constant funding (and also the amassing of great wealth, but it is questionable as to whether such institutions have any part in Christ. I’m not suggesting that as member of the body of Christ we shouldn’t be generous. On the contrary, the new testament scriptures contain explicit instructions for giving and giving regularly to meet the needs of the church (not the buildings but the body.)
The gifts and offerings spoken of by the Apostles were all about meeting the needs of the brethren and extending also to help meet the needs of those outside the body of Christ as an expression of grace extended to all. The Apostle John expressed this as the satisfaction of God’s commandment to the church; “By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.” 1 John 3:16-19
With the advent of a professional clergy came the need to provide for them, but when Christ sent out His disciples through the land of Israel preaching the gospel of the kingdom, He instructed them to live on the hospitality provided them. When the apostle Paul went out on his missionary journeys, he labored for his own provision and not because he was unworthy of the hospitality or gifts of others, but to lend credibility to his gospel; “If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things? If others are partakers of this right over you, are we not even more? Nevertheless we have not used this right, but endure all things lest we hinder the gospel of Christ.” 1 Corinthians 9:11-12
In that passage from Paul’s 1st letter to the Corinthian church we find Paul giving the justification of a paid clergy as satisfying the commandment of God’s provisioning through the gifts made by the Church at large. God commanded that those preaching the gospel should live by it so this becomes a need of the Church that can’t be neglected, but God never required tithing by the Church for the purpose of building monuments to the memory of servants called to the ministry, vast cathedrals, and pulpits extending the reach of preachers to their own aggrandizement. I tell you that such men have already received their reward.
So why is tithing preached or held as a requirement rather than the teaching of the principles of stewardship and the provisioning of the body of Christ as the working out of God’s love in us and through us? Simple answer: faithlessness. The Church has regular needs as well as special ones and it is far easier to place an arbitrary burden on the backs of the congregation than to trust the Lord to meet the needs of the Church through the gifts of members given the grace to willingly make greater gifts. If pews are emptying out and revenues are dropping off, don’t look to the pews for the cause, look to the pulpits. If the professional preachers are dishonest with their handling of the word of God, why should the “Church” leadership be entrusted with the wages earned by the sweat of our brows? With men, if the head is sick, the whole body is sick. When Christ is indeed the head of the Church, the Church prospers. When the Church is failing, a man has stepped into his place, and sometimes more than one.
In the end, liars will not prosper and fools will perish. Only those that love will endure.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Micha'el.

Something else that should also be considered in the mix: What message are the preachers preaching? In the Gospels, Yeshua` initially sent out His "apostoloi" (Greek for "sent ones," transliterated as "apostles") as His heralds to the towns and villages through which He would pass to announce the arrival of the Messiah to be King - the Anointed to be King. As they went, God would authenticate their message with the miracles that Yeshua` could perform. They could...

Matt 10:8a
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils:...
KJV


And these miracles would prove to those who had an open heart for the Messiah that they were indeed His delegates, His ambassadors, His "apostoloi!" Yeshua` said that they wouldn't have gone through all the towns and villages of Y'hudah before He was on their heals coming into the towns and villages after them:

Matt 10:23
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
KJV


So, what message were they heralding? They were heralding the gospel of the Kingdom of heaven! The good news about the Kingdom from the sky! It was a message that the Isra'elites knew quite well, because they needed no introduction as to what it was! They only needed to change their minds about the message and believe it!

Mark 1:14-16
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
16 Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
KJV


THIS is the gospel that Yeshua`, Yochanan the Immerser, and the apostoloi heralded! And, what did the Isra'elites understand about the "kingdom of God" or "God's Kingdom?"

Isaiah 52:1-10
52:1 Awake! Awake, Tziyon!
Clothe yourself with your strength!
Dress in your splendid garments,
Yerushalayim, the holy city!
For the uncircumcised and the unclean
will enter you no more.
2 Shake off the dust! Arise!
Be enthroned, Yerushalayim!
Loosen the chains on your neck,
captive daughter of Tziyon!
3 For thus says ADONAI:
“You were sold for nothing,
and you will be redeemed without money.”
4 For thus says Adonai ELOHIM:
“Long ago my people went down to Egypt
to live there as aliens,
and Ashur oppressed them for no reason.
5 So now, what should I do here,” asks ADONAI,
“since my people were carried off for nothing?
Their oppressors are howling,” says ADONAI,
“and my name is always being insulted, daily.
6 Therefore my people will know my name;
therefore on that day they will know
that I, the one speaking — here I am!”

7 How beautiful on the mountains
are the feet of him who brings good news,
proclaiming shalom, bringing good news
of good things, announcing salvation
and saying to Tziyon, Your God is King!”
8 Listen! Your watchmen are raising their voices,
shouting for joy together.
For they will see, before their own eyes,
ADONAI returning to Tziyon.

9 Break out into joy! Sing together,
you ruins of Yerushalayim!
For ADONAI has comforted his people,
he has redeemed Yerushalayim!
10 ADONAI has bared his holy arm
in the sight of every nation,
and all the ends of the earth will see
the salvation (rescue) of our God.
CJB


So, THIS was the "gospel" that Yeshua` preached, announced or heralded. So was that different than the "gospel" that Paul preached?

No, it was the same based on the verses which Paul quoted! He quoted exactly the same type of verses that Yeshua` used! He quoted from this passage above in Romans 10:15:

Romans 10:13-16
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
KJV


And, Romans 10:13 was quoted from Jo'el 2:32:

Joel 2:32
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
KJV


Here's the verse within its context (in the Complete Jewish Bible):

Joel 3:1-4:2
3:1(2:28) “After this, I will pour out
my Spirit on all humanity.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions;
2(2:29) and also on male and female slaves
in those days I will pour out my Spirit.
3(2:30) I will show wonders in the sky and on earth —
blood, fire and columns of smoke.
4(2:31) The sun will be turned into darkness
and the moon into blood
before the coming of the great
and terrible Day of ADONAI.”

5(2:32) At that time, whoever calls
on the name of ADONAI will be saved (rescued).
For in Mount Tziyon and Yerushalayim
there will be those who escape,
as ADONAI has promised;
among the survivors will be those
whom ADONAI has called.

4(3):1 “For then, at that time, when I restore
the fortunes of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim,
2 I will gather all nations and bring them down
to the Valley of Y’hoshafat [Adonai judges].
I will enter into judgment there
for my people, my heritage Isra’el,
whom they scattered among the nations;
then they divided my land.
CJB


So, how does this figure with the gospel supposedly found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
KJV


The death, burial and particularly the resurrection of Yeshua` the Messiah IS good news, too, but it is in ADDITION to the "gospel" that Paul initially heralded to those in Korinth. Consider the following translation in the Complete Jewish Bible:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
15:1 Now, brothers, I must remind you of the Good News which I proclaimed to you, and which you received, and on which you have taken your stand, 2 and by which you are being saved — provided you keep holding fast to the message I proclaimed to you. For if you don’t, your trust will have been in vain. 3 For among the first things I passed on to you was what I also received, namely this: the Messiah died for our sins, in accordance with what the Tanakh says; 4 and he was buried; and he was raised on the third day, in accordance with what the Tanakh says; ...
CJB


Thus, the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua` the Messiah are not the ONLY things that were passed on to them from Paul. Remember that Paul's focus in 1 Corinthians is the RESURRECTION! So, naturally, He is going to focus on THAT portion of the Good News!

So, the bottom line:

Are our preachers heralding the good news as Yeshua`, Yochanan the Immerser, or Yeshua`s apostles heralded it? If not, then why should God want to authenticate it with His power or His blessings?
 

michaelvpardo

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Hello Retrobyter,
Peace and grace to you in all things. Thank you for your contribution to the message and I agree with you also with respect to the Lord's blessings upon His message. There are however, "churches" with very large congregations (or perhaps preachers with a very large audience) that are not preaching the gospel or even a biblical Christ. I've heard our blessed and Holy One spoken of in terms more appropriately describing Santa Claus or just someone to invoke when you desire to expand your bank account. In the end it will not go well with them, and I'm afraid that their end is not far off.
I've grown weary with seeing things like "Try Jesus" tee-shirts and bible verse candies, crass marketing of our Lord and Savior, indeed of the judge of all the earth. I've grown weary of self centered worship and the what have you done for me lately attitude, rather than simple gratitude to the One whose longsuffering is the only reason that we are not consumed. I'm not a good man and I own the evil things that I've done in my life, but I know the value of the gift that I've been given and it breaks my heart to see how the Lord is held in such low esteem, even by those that He died for. I tremble at the thought that I'm unworthy of the love that He has shed upon me, but grace has never been about worthiness, and I can never repay anything given me by Him. And that is Love. So I will give freely to those with no power to repay, because that is exactly what the Lord has done for me. The Lord forbid that I should ever be foolish enough to consider myself a profitable servant, but I know this: I may stand before the Lord with nothing in my hands to offer Him, but I shall not stand naked when clothed in His righteousness. This is the thing to cling to, for He has overcome the world and I am more than blessed to hide in His shadow and to serve at His call.
A day is coming and there are dark times before it, but still I long to see it, when all Israel shall be saved. Amen & Amen. I thank the Lord for men of understanding, may He always keep you near to His heart. Amen.
 

BeforeThereWas

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It's one thing to support those who go out and minister the Gospel, and quite another to hand over the primary portion of one's giving in support of dead buildings, lawn care, and all the other creature comforts and luxuries professing believers within institutionalized religion luxuriate BACK upon themselves by way of their alleged "giving."

I never could figure out how that could possibly be classified as "giving," unless one attaches "dues" to the end of the identification of what's handed over to organized religion.

I also can't find anyone who can offer a legitimate appologetic in defense of the traditional assumption that the wage-earning, ancient Israerlites allegedly handed over to the Levites a tenth of their monetary income, or that Abraham ever handed over to Melchizedek any portion of his personal property still located way up in northern Canaan when he met up with Melchizedek.

The glaring inconsistencies behind the teachings in support of a required tithe simply fall flat when stacked up next to the actual declarations and statements found all throughout scripture as a whole.

SW
 

biggandyy

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I take it then you all don't pay taxes to the Federal Government because some of that money goes to funding abortions and the like.
 

BeforeThereWas

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Taxation in America and tithing to religious organizations have no real parallel so far as I can see. Is there a prallel that helps make your observation relevant to this discussion?

Also, are you saying that institutionalized, religious organizations are somehow representative of the Church? If so, then how?

SW
 

biggandyy

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Just saying if one is going to object to money being wasted by one organization (grass cutting) should not that same reasoning be extended to another (abortion)? Just trying to find some consistency to the messages being sent.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Seasoned Warrior.

It's one thing to support those who go out and minister the Gospel, and quite another to hand over the primary portion of one's giving in support of dead buildings, lawn care, and all the other creature comforts and luxuries professing believers within institutionalized religion luxuriate BACK upon themselves by way of their alleged "giving."

I never could figure out how that could possibly be classified as "giving," unless one attaches "dues" to the end of the identification of what's handed over to organized religion.

While there are those who abuse the system, IF one is going to attend regularly a congregation that meets in a building with a lawn and creature comforts within that building, then there's no reason why that one shouldn't contribute their fair share to the support of the facilities. And, a "tax" of 10% is as good a "tax" as any; however, it would be nice if people called it what it is - a TAX! It just needs to be something that everyone in the congregation can agree upon and pledge to support. And, if that "tax" is enough for a pastor's salary as well, then, fine. The pastor SHOULD be able to live off of the rest. "A laborer is worthy of his wages" (Lev. 19:13; Matt. 10:10; Luke 10:7; 1 Tim. 5:18), and "muzzle not the ox that treadeth out the corn" (Deut. 25:4; 1 Cor. 9:9; 1 Tim. 5:18). Those are biblical principles, whether one wants to call it a "tithe" or not.

I also can't find anyone who can offer a legitimate apologetic in defense of the traditional assumption that the wage-earning, ancient Israelites allegedly handed over to the Levites a tenth of their monetary income, or that Abraham ever handed over to Melchizedek any portion of his personal property still located way up in northern Canaan when he met up with Melchizedek.

Why do you need an "apologetic?" With a simple concordance, you can look up the Scriptures that support the idea: Gen. 14:20; 28:22; Lev. 27:30-32; Num. 18:21-28; Deut. 12:6-17; 14:22-28; Deut. 26:12; 1 Sam. 8:15-17; 2 Chron. 31:5-12; Neh. 10:37-38; 12:44; 13:5-12; Amos 4:4; and Mal. 3:8-10 in the Tanakh (OT) and Matt. 23:23; Luke 11:42; 18:12; and Heb. 7:2-9 in the B'rit haChadashah (NT). And, by the way, Malkhiy-Tsedeq was not located in "northern Canaan"; he was located more in eastern Isra'el in what is now called the "West Bank," close to the vale of Siddim where S'dowm (Sodom) used to be. In fact, some believe that the "king of Salem" may have actually ruled in what was to become "Jeru-salem," when the Jebusites took over.

The glaring inconsistencies behind the teachings in support of a required tithe simply fall flat when stacked up next to the actual declarations and statements found all throughout scripture as a whole.

SW
Here, you're right. God owns EVERYTHING WE THINK WE "OWN," not just a tenth of our goods! We are His slaves, and any money or property which we have been given are LOANED to us, and we are to be His STEWARDS of those valuables! This, too, is biblical, but I have no time right now to look up the verses. I'll leave that to you.

God bless!
 

Axehead

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One of the facts that speak so loudly about the doctrine of tithing is the absolute silence of the New Testament.

We must be honest with ourselves and those we teach. When it comes to the topic of tithing, the New Testament is completely silent!

Throughout the NT there are many references to money and to giving, but not one reference to tithing is ever made in the context of those subjects. If the New Testament required Christians to practice the Old Testament Law of Tithes and Offerings, it would surely be mentioned within the passages of scripture that discuss money and giving. BUT IT NEVER IS.

The NT is NOT SILENT about money.
The NT is NOT SILENT about giving to support the local church.
The NT is NOT SILENT about supporting those who teach God's Word.
The NT is NOT SILENT about supporting spiritual leaders.
The NT is NOT SILENT about helping the poor.
The NT is NOT SILENT about supporting missionary endeavors.
The NT is NOT SILENT about supporting widows.
The NT is NOT SILENT about supporting parents.

THE NT IS TOTALLY SILENT ABOUT TITHING.


Also, since the New Covenant did away with the office of the "Priest" and because the New Covenant did away with the practice of sacrifices and offerings, it would be impossible for the the Old Testament law of "tithes and offerings" -- as they were commonly understood -- to be a part of the the practice of NT Christians. Therefore any law of "tithing" would have to be redefined and explained. The practice of "Tithes and Offerings", required the active ministry of the Levitical priesthood, the sacrifices of animals on the altar and many other aspects of Temple worship.

If tithing was meant to be an important part of a Christian's life, there would be numerous references to it in the New Testament.
 

BeforeThereWas

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While there are those who abuse the system, IF one is going to attend regularly a congregation that meets in a building with a lawn and creature comforts within that building, then there's no reason why that one shouldn't contribute their fair share to the support of the facilities.

I agree. Also, reading what I actually said, one would then notice that I said nothing about NOT supporting such things for those who reap benefit from such. I clearly stated what a travesty it is to hand over the primary portion of one's giving to such things, thus placing the meeting of needs as a far lesser priority. That's the key....the misaligned priorities in so many people's giving.

And, a "tax" of 10% is as good a "tax" as any; however, it would be nice if people called it what it is - a TAX!

The only difference being that not everyone can afford 10%, or even 5%. If 10% is so reasonable to those who can more than afford it, then those who can't should just stay home. Is that what you're saying? Please clarify.

It just needs to be something that everyone in the congregation can agree upon and pledge to support.

And what of those who can't afford it. Does the "congregation" then cast them out? What's your ecclesiastical ruling on that issue?

And, if that "tax" is enough for a pastor's salary as well, then, fine. The pastor SHOULD be able to live off of the rest.

As the CEO of an institutional organization, yes. However, just because some dude has a degree from a theological cemetery or Bible college, and an ordination certificate some some other man-made organization, doesn't mean he's a leader of biblical stature, nor chosen of the Lord.....no matter how eloquent his Aristotilian rhetoric.

"A laborer is worthy of his wages" (Lev. 19:13; Matt. 10:10; Luke 10:7; 1 Tim. 5:18), and "muzzle not the ox that treadeth out the corn" (Deut. 25:4; 1 Cor. 9:9; 1 Tim. 5:18). Those are biblical principles, whether one wants to call it a "tithe" or not.

That again assumes every one of them is a "worker" according to the Lord's choosing and calling. Those who teach handing over the primary portion of one's giving to the institution most generally is nothing more than a false teacher, and no more.

Why do you need an "apologetic?" With a simple concordance, you can look up the Scriptures that support the idea: Gen. 14:20; 28:22; Lev. 27:30-32; Num. 18:21-28; Deut. 12:6-17; 14:22-28; Deut. 26:12; 1 Sam. 8:15-17; 2 Chron. 31:5-12; Neh. 10:37-38; 12:44; 13:5-12; Amos 4:4; and Mal. 3:8-10 in the Tanakh (OT) and Matt. 23:23; Luke 11:42; 18:12; and Heb. 7:2-9 in the B'rit haChadashah (NT). And, by the way, Malkhiy-Tsedeq was not located in "northern Canaan"; he was located more in eastern Isra'el in what is now called the "West Bank," close to the vale of Siddim where S'dowm (Sodom) used to be. In fact, some believe that the "king of Salem" may have actually ruled in what was to become "Jeru-salem," when the Jebusites took over.

And yet not one of all those verses portray wage earners handing over one penny to the Levites in accordance with the Law. So, what, may I ask, is your point? If you deem I'm wrong, then I'd like to see quotes of the relevant verses and a short explanation of each as to where you see wage earners handing over a tithe to the Levites. Generalizations fail to provide the necessary conviction.

Blessings

SW

Just saying if one is going to object to money being wasted by one organization (grass cutting) should not that same reasoning be extended to another (abortion)? Just trying to find some consistency to the messages being sent.

Nope. We're not required to hand over to, much less to be members of, organized religion. We're members of the TRUE Church through Christ Jesus, not by our names being on the membership roles of some man-made "church" organization (so-called).

You failed to draw the parallels by way of explanatiom, which I figured would happen.

The consistency has nothing to do with anything but what's written in the word of God. Bringing worldly things into a realm where it doesn't belong speaks of a confusion I don't really know how to effectively address.

Next.....

SW
 

liz

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Interesting discussion. We are missionaries/volunteer Bible teachers in our church. We don't expect payment of any kind, nor have we ever benefited from any support toward our 14 mission trips to the Philippines since year 2000. We have never considered tithing, but have always given to the Lord's work and done everything unto Him alone. It is He who keeps the books, even though the church accountant gives us a statement of our offerings before the tax reporting time. It never reflects anything close to a tithe to this church or the other church we attend to teach and preach there (as volunteers). The reason is because God has HIS MONEY of which we are only stewards, go to the far reaches of the earth, to pastors in third world countries who often have no salaries, to individuals and groups doing GOD'S WORK, etc.

Imagine how ridiculous it sounds when folks say the tithe belongs to the church you attend. I share this with you because we are retired people with a fixed income, yet we are so blessed by God. Our money goes to pay for our trips; a lot of it stays in the mission field; what does it matter as long as we know that the Holy Spirit is in charge of our lives. Folks say, "Thank you for coming to bless us," but I say, "We are blessed more because we came." When we see people who have a lot less than us, who live by faith from day to day, our faith is stirred, the Word of God is made real to our hearts and minds. Church members share what they have with one another; some bring rice, eggs or fish to their pastor. It is amazing how simple and great their faith is in the places where we have ministered.

Back home in America, we give our weekly offering/gift towards the maintenance and expenses of the church. I think that brother who used the word 'faithlessness' hit the nail on the head. Tithing is preached because of lack of faith. And why is there lack of faith? It's because the Word of God is not taught in many churches. We all know the verse about faith and the Word go together as hand and glove. If Christians are full of the Word, they will be full of faith and will fall over each other to throw their hard earned cash into the offering basket, and some will not let the 10% tithe limit their giving, but will give according as God has blessed them! All expenses will be met; the pastor will be blessed and so would all of the church members. Those who demand tithes are faithless, looking to man rather than God. They mostly preach 'feel good' messages thinking that the members will keep coming to church to support the ministry and church programs. I should stop right here. The Holy Spirit is not present in many churches, and Jesus is outside knocking on the door to get in.
 

BeforeThereWas

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Liz, that was a good post.

Most folks assume that because I speak out against handing over to organized religion the primary portion of one's giving, that I espouse abandoning institutionalism altogether. Not so. I encourage people to be members of those things if they feel that they need them. I also encourage their memberships ensure they have their priorities in order in relation to giving. Institutional church organizations have taught the false doctrine of their being the storehouse for FAR too long. They're nothing of the kind.

Nowhere does the word of God say the institutional model is the expression of the Church on this earth. It's not. The Church is a living, breathing entity mankind isn't capable of modeling with anything he can build with his hands, no matter how much emotional wrapping one applies to his or her defense of them. Unbelievers can walk into any one of them, become a member, and warm the pews or chairs, but not so with the Church.

Organized religion and its traditions have enjoyed the seat of prominance for too long. It's high time those things be put into their proper perspective as the man-made organizations they are since they are nothing at all akin to a living organism.

SW
 

liz

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Thanks, SW! It befuddles my mind that Christians can get themselves into situations where they forget that God's desire is that we use the gifts He has given us- like wisdom and knowledge from the Holy Spirit, and discernment as well, plus put on the mind of Christ! Why has God even given us brains to think with, but alas, there are so many who are deceived by man and Satan. Of course, they don't believe they're deceived and they love their pastor (idolize him more). Sometimes I think it is hardly worth the trouble talking to some folks who don't use their brains to think sensibly and act responsibly, who will accept false teachings from false shepherds to their detriment.
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, Seasoned Warrior.

I agree. Also, reading what I actually said, one would then notice that I said nothing about NOT supporting such things for those who reap benefit from such. I clearly stated what a travesty it is to hand over the primary portion of one's giving to such things, thus placing the meeting of needs as a far lesser priority. That's the key....the misaligned priorities in so many people's giving.

That's cool. We're in agreement, then.


The only difference being that not everyone can afford 10%, or even 5%. If 10% is so reasonable to those who can more than afford it, then those who can't should just stay home. Is that what you're saying? Please clarify.

Sure. We are supposed to take care of the widows and orphans, and Yeshua` said, "The poor you have with you always," and that presents for us a great OPPORTUNITY to care for the poor, as well! If a person is truly indigent, then we as a family have a duty to the Messiah to take care of our brother or sister. We need to show him or her the same love that the Messiah showed to us! On the other hand, even the poor in Isra'el were required under the Law to give 10% because 10% of nothing is still nothing, and even 10% of a dollar is only a dime! IT IS FAIR, which is at least close to being just.

And what of those who can't afford it. Does the "congregation" then cast them out? What's your ecclesiastical ruling on that issue?

Oh, silly billy, since when has God EVER cast someone out who couldn't afford a free-will gift? And, God, through the Messiah, has permanently paid for everything more!

As the CEO of an institutional organization, yes. However, just because some dude has a degree from a theological cemetery or Bible college, and an ordination certificate some some other man-made organization, doesn't mean he's a leader of biblical stature, nor chosen of the Lord.....no matter how eloquent his Aristotilian rhetoric.

"CEO." Yuk! Yuk! And, what does Aristotle have to do with it?

That again assumes every one of them is a "worker" according to the Lord's choosing and calling. Those who teach handing over the primary portion of one's giving to the institution most generally is nothing more than a false teacher, and no more.

Not necessarily. Some are well-meaning teachers who just don't have a clear understanding of how God perceives giving. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. People learn at different rates and subjects are not always learned in the same order. Give 'em a break! And, again, this has to be something that all in the institution should talk out and agree upon.

There have been times when we've had church outings in the past that required $20/meal and my wife and I couldn't attend because it was out of our budget. I understand that that sort of thing is prohibitive and exclusive, and we've felt isolated and abandoned in that isolation. That should NEVER be how our organizations should behave. I much prefer pot-luck church meals where everybody just brings a little something. Then, even if they can't afford much more than a bag of chips or a packet of Cool-Aid, at least they can feel a part of the family.

In the churches of which I have been a part, although tithing has been taught, it was not something that was EVER policed! I think I might have used the wrong word when I said "pledge" earlier, because that assumes a commitment to human beings. It can be something as simple as a promise one makes to God in private that is only between God and that person, instead. We just need to give to God our best out of love for Him! And, if you don't know how to give to God directly, then the next best thing is to give it to an organization with which you can be comfortable in giving, i.e. you know where it is going and for what it will be used. If the organization to which you go doesn't provide such security, then go somewhere else!

And yet not one of all those verses portray wage earners handing over one penny to the Levites in accordance with the Law. So, what, may I ask, is your point? If you deem I'm wrong, then I'd like to see quotes of the relevant verses and a short explanation of each as to where you see wage earners handing over a tithe to the Levites. Generalizations fail to provide the necessary conviction.

Blessings

SW

Yeshua` said,

Matthew 23:23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
KJV


Luke 11:42
42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
KJV


Hebrews 7:1-17
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
KJV


The Pharisees were not chided for giving their tithes; they were bawled out because even though they gave their tithes, they didn't give even as much attention to the weightier matters, let alone MORE importance! In just looking at the tithing portion, He told the Pharisees that they SHOULD have given their tithes.

Consider how Avraham who believed God and God counted it to him as righteousness, Avraham who was great-grandfather to Leviy and owed Leviy nothing, Avraham who was the first Patriarch of the Isra'elites, Avraham who was not under the Law, paid tithes to Malkhiy-Tsedeq, which means "King of Righteousness." Was he required to do so? NO! They were given freely! Avraham just wanted to thank God for His protection and His provision!

There's nothing wrong with giving a tithe. One should just do his or her best to be sure that there is an accountability for the money, and then give it, trusting God to make sure it goes to where it is needed the most. There should be no pressure in one's giving, except what God has laid upon that person's heart to give.
 

BeforeThereWas

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...On the other hand, even the poor in Isra'el were required under the Law to give 10% because 10% of nothing is still nothing, and even 10% of a dollar is only a dime! IT IS FAIR, which is at least close to being just.

Can you show me where this is true? Please show me where wage earners, according the Law, were required to hand over 10% of their wages to the Levites. Got any references what speak directly to this, much less the poor?

The Law required every tenth that passed under the rod be handed over, but if a poor man had only nine lambs and nine calves born in a year, he was required to hand over NOTHING to the Levite.

What about wage earners, then? The Law is utterly silent about the wages of wage earners...considering that the tithe was a tenth ONLY of the INCREASE from producing fields, herds and flocks, NEVER wages from those with non-producing lands, herds and/or flocks.

So, how do you figure the poor in Israel handed over a tenth when most of them owned no producing lands, herds or flocks? Where does this come from...apart from assumptions about a non-existent teaching within scripture...otherwise known as a false doctrine?

There's nothing silly about false teachings. I take the commission of such things seriously.

"CEO." Yuk! Yuk! And, what does Aristotle have to do with it?

The model for sermons taught in theological cemetaries and bible colleges originated with him.

...Some are well-meaning teachers who just don't have a clear understanding of how God perceives giving.

True. That alone places into question their truly having been called by God. ANY false teaching originating from such a fundamentally flawed foundation of theological thought renders their service tainted by the leaven of which Jesus spoke.

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.

Is there a difference? Good grief, man! We're talking about those who aren't taking seriously the fact that they will be judged DOUBLY, and that each one they lead astray will answer for having blindly believed what is pattently false.

You may be one who belittles and powder-fulffs the seriousness of these horrible facts, but as I said earlier, I take them seriously.

People learn at different rates and subjects are not always learned in the same order. Give 'em a break! And, again, this has to be something that all in the institution should talk out and agree upon.

I once heard something very much like this from a bleeding-heart liberal who took seriously only what's a part of the platform of his own interests, not from one whose heart is sealed firmly in the foundation of scripture, the Spirit of the Lord, and the importance of TRUTH at all costs.

...If the organization to which you go doesn't provide such security, then go somewhere else!

You make it sound so easy. The problem for institutionalists is that they have few, if any, choices.

The Pharisees were not chided for giving their tithes; they were bawled out because even though they gave their tithes, they didn't give even as much attention to the weightier matters, let alone MORE importance! In just looking at the tithing portion, He told the Pharisees that they SHOULD have given their tithes.

For Him to have instructed them otherwise would have been a breach of the Law; considering it was still in effect at the time He spoke those words to them. He had not yet established the New Covenant until later.

Consider how Avraham who believed God and God counted it to him as righteousness, Avraham who was great-grandfather to Leviy and owed Leviy nothing, Avraham who was the first Patriarch of the Isra'elites, Avraham who was not under the Law, paid tithes to Malkhiy-Tsedeq, which means "King of Righteousness." Was he required to do so? NO! They were given freely! Avraham just wanted to thank God for His protection and His provision!

Abraham handed over a tenth of the SPOILS. Considering

1) the text nowhere indicates he ever had any thought in his head that the spoils were ever his property, and
2) nowhere are we told that Israel ever mimmicked what Abraham did,

...your point is rendered meaningless since it simplistically violates the context AND assumes what is pattenetly false..

There's nothing wrong with giving a tithe. One should just do his or her best to be sure that there is an accountability for the money,

If one chooses to set a tenth as the measure of what he or she purposes in his or her heart, that's fine. No problem.

I agree with your statement about accounability. Many place, by way of their very actions, the support of the buildings and the religious operations as higher priorities above the meeting of needs, and sometimes the needs of their own families, which, as Paul indicated, means they are WORSE than INFIDELS. (CAPS for emphasis only, not shouting)

Every believer who blindly hands over their primary giving to religious organizations, without ensuring the top priority for the meeting of meeds is observed, will be held accountable for such, which includes myself.

SW
 

Axehead

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I take it then you all don't pay taxes to the Federal Government because some of that money goes to funding abortions and the like.

If it wasn't for the Lord commanding us and showing us by example that we should render to Caesar, then YES, many of us would be in prison.

Caesar used taxes for continued oppression of the Jews, yet Jesus paid the tax and commanded us to do the same. But, unlike Caesar, He does not command us to pay a religious tax. Jesus did not pay the tax to Caesar and then turn around and complain or criticize how Caesar used the tax. That is Christ's example for us.

Axehead

Shabbat shalom, Seasoned Warrior.

Consider how Avraham who believed God and God counted it to him as righteousness, Avraham who was great-grandfather to Leviy and owed Leviy nothing, Avraham who was the first Patriarch of the Isra'elites, Avraham who was not under the Law, paid tithes to Malkhiy-Tsedeq, which means "King of Righteousness." Was he required to do so? NO! They were given freely! Avraham just wanted to thank God for His protection and His provision!

Yes, but you cannot use the fact that Abraham (who gave 10% of the spoils), who gave 1 time (as recorded) is a pattern of NT giving.

Read post #44 here: http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/15644-tithing/page__st__30

To read about Melchizedek and his giving.

Axehead
 

BeforeThereWas

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The "Abraham's tithe" dodge is a dead horse that's been dead for so long, beaten so often by so many ignorant people claiming to be followers of Christ, that the carcass is nothing but powder blowing in the winds of indifference to TRUTH.

SW
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Seasoned Warrior.

The "Abraham's tithe" dodge is a dead horse that's been dead for so long, beaten so often by so many ignorant people claiming to be followers of Christ, that the carcass is nothing but powder blowing in the winds of indifference to TRUTH.

SW

Wow. I'm GLAD Avraham paid tithes to Malkhiy-Tsedeq, and I hope you don't take that attitude toward Avraham when Paul talked about him in Romans chapter 4!

Romans 4:1-3
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
KJV

"Dead horse" indeed. Don't you understand that we're talking about a livestock herding community? How often does one have to pay tithes in a community in which wealth is measured by the number of livestock one has?
 

BeforeThereWas

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Wow. I'm GLAD Avraham paid tithes to Malkhiy-Tsedeq, and I hope you don't take that attitude toward Avraham when Paul talked about him in Romans chapter 4!

So, are you trying to say that Abraham was no better than any renegade one may see warring on the plains of his day?

Are you saying that he wasn't a cut above the run-of-the-mill vagabonds of his day...that he would EVER have considered property his own that he knew was not his in the first place, and that he chose to retrieve and return to the rightful owners from thieves?

Tell me: If you stopped a thief and took back from him property he had stolen from someone else, would YOU consider it yours for the keeping if you so chose, or would you return it to the rightful owners? Abraham ASKED that his men be allowed to take a portion for their efforts, he didn't tell them it was his to give to them until the point he chose to give what was left back to the rightful owners.

I marvel that so many people cast shadows upon a man they've never met, but only read about.

You say "tithes" (plural) as if to presume that he made routine journeys to meet Melchizedek and hand over a tithe of his own property (all of which was up in northern Canaan at the time he met up with Melchizedek in the southern cities of Sodom and Gamorrah).

Are you actually saying that his handing over a tithe was an on-going series of events? If so, then where did you get that, or are you merely relying upon the weaknesses of translations and assuming something out of thin air? I can't figure out where you get this stuff, unless I'm not understanding what your between-the-lines statements are trying to say.

Don't you understand that we're talking about a livestock herding community? How often does one have to pay tithes in a community in which wealth is measured by the number of livestock one has?

What I can say, with qualification, is that you avoided answering my question, which is typical of many who promote teachings that are nowhere stated in the Bible.

If your trying to say that currency wasn't what clinked in the pockets/bags of many people in Israel, then you clearly don't have a grasp of the historicity of that people or their culture. Even Abraham purchased Sarah's burial cave with MONEY!

Let's take a look at this from another angle:

CARPENTERS were not required to hand over a tenth of their income to the Levites.
FISHERMEN were not required to hand over a tenth of their income to the Levites.
CLOTHIERS were not required to hand over a tenth of their income to the Levites.
INN OWNERS were not required to hand over a tenth of their income to the Levites.
TRANSPORTERS (of goods) were not required to hand over a tenth of their income to the Levites.
SHIP MERCHANTS were not required to hand over a tenth of their income to the Levites.
SELLERS OF GOODS were not required to hand over a tenth of their income to the Levites.
HARVEST WORKERS were not required to hand over a tenth of their income to the Levites.

The list goes on and on, and NOWHERE does the Law require ANY of those people, and MANY others, to hand over to the Levites a tenth of their wages, profits, or currency of any kind.

Now, please put some substance behind what you appear to be assuming about the massive population of ancient Israel that in reality was NOT required by the Law to hand over a tithe to the Levites.

One or two phrase denials of the obvious don't make the case.

Where Abraham handed over a tenth of the spoils (other people's property) to Melchizedek, something NONE of us can mimmick, the nation of Israel NEVER practiced handing over to the priests or the Levites a tenth of the spoils from ANY war they fought.

So, from where is this allegedly enduring requirement coming?

Dead horse? You BET it's a dead horse because the usual teachings that rely on what Abraham did are absolutely indefensible from the very word of God. One must ignore many, many known facts in order to make sound more plausible the falsehoods of traditional teachings surrounding the tithe Abraham handed over to Melchizedek.

SW
 

michaelvpardo

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I think that the original point that I was trying to make was that the requirement of tithing in the new covenant churches is a misappropriation of scripture. The Law is good and it's application is good if it is used lawfully, but there is an unlawful use of law. In the body of Christ we are to follow the leading of the Spirit of God to life. The law condemns, the Spirit gives life. Even in the Church we have a law of sorts, a royal law decreed by the King. His commandment to His disciples is to love one another even as He loves them (He gave His life for us and so we should be willing to sacrifice for each other.) The problem that we tend to have is one of linguistics. We see the english word love and tend to think of a concept involving only emotional content rather than volitional content. The love of God in Christ is an act of His character and of His will: "Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”" Exodus 33:19
We have a commandment to love one another, not just with smiles and pleasant greetings,(not with warm fuzzies,) but with deeds, good works to meet the real needs of our brethren and not just them: And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith. Galatians 6:9-11
The problem is that when the leadership of a church starts to set down rules of acceptible behavior as requirements for membership, leadership, fellowship, etc., they are in effect doing what the pharisees did 2000 years ago, attempting to circumvent the commandment (of Jesus the Christ) and establishing a standard of righteousness of their own, comparing men with men, and forsaking the standard of the King, even our Lord Jesus (or Yahshua if you prefer.) The Apostle Paul gave us clear standards for church discipline and church leadership (based to some degree on his own background as a Pharisee), but we also have ample teaching about judging our brothers based upon our own standards and not upon the word of God. The rule that I see predominantly in the teachings of our Lord is one of grace and forgiveness and equity for all men. The tithe had it's good and lawful purpose under the law, but corrupt men (according to Josephus) ammassed wealth through the tithe and then used their wealth unlawfully, making loans to widows and then seizing their property in forfeiture, and other such evil things. I don't see contemporary ministries doing this sort of thing, but I have heard the suggestion made that someone should sell their home and move into a cheap apartment in order to have 10% to give to their church, an easy thing to suggest when the church pays for your own home, provides sufficient income for being a host to visitors, meeting your own needs and that of your family, and sufficient funds to tithe back 10% to the church (not an uncommon compensation package for a Pastor). Does this seem a little corrupt to you? It does to me. I won't blame a Pastor for accepting such a package, but when the same man preaches the giving of a tithe as a requiement, it would appear somewhat self serving. Please don't misunderstand my purpose here. I haven't come to attack the institutionalized church, but to call it to repentance. Judgment begins in the house of God.