How to understand your sins.....now that you are born again.

us2are1 · Jul 4, 2012

The gift of salvation can only be accepted if you understand it.

The gift of salvation will replace everything you are, have and hold dear or you have understood nothing.

Luke 14
33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

Prentis · Jul 4, 2012

Those who are so stuck on salvation and devising a plan to declare themselves saved are seeking to save their life... And will in turn lose it.

Christianity is not about salvation first, but about intimacy with the Son and the Father. Salvation comes as a result, yes. We are saved from our old lives, from the world, to a new life in Christ Jesus, where we live by his Spirit.

To declare that we are saved from the condemnation that is given to the old life all the while not having to walk in the new life offered in Christ Jesus is akin to crying 'Peace, peace' when there is no peace.

The blind man who does not believe in the power of God to conform us to his Son by the Spirit believes this teaching to be legalism because he understands only and knows only the power of the flesh. Thus any form of godliness must to him be a lie, since in his experience, there is no power by which one may indeed truly be conformed to Christ, both in action and in Spirit. Thus a carnal man teaches carnal men that God is powerless to make us like his Son, and has in turn made a way whereby, though we remain corrupt, we save our wretched lives.

But this only reveals the mans unbelief towards the power of God. Christ not only died, but was resurrected, and this that men might share in the new life and be one with him in the Spirit.

us2are1 · Jul 4, 2012

The new testament scriptures are written to those who are and will become disciples and followers of Christ. The gifts and promises are not for everyone.

Luke 9
62 But Jesus said to him, "No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

jiggyfly · Jul 4, 2012

Episkopos said:
Episkopos sure would seem like a bad dude according to this proof!

This is the thing...nobody is going to wear a sign around their neck that says...Hey! I'm walking in Christ alone and no longer sinning!!! Someone who doesn't sin is not going to go around claiming this. If fact the proof we are looking for vanishes as it is being declared. So this is something we must accept by faith...that others are more advanced (if our egos let us) than us. A child can accept this...

As humans we can only see the outside actions of a person. But God looks at the heart and the real condition of a person. We can't see that. God's law looks into the secret parts of the heart. It is the bible that testifies that we are to be perfect as God is perfect. This is not made up...it can be actually read in the bible. Therefore, rather than seeking proof, which God will never provide us with without faith first, let us look at what the bible says...without watering down the message.

Christians are supposed to walk by faith...not be cynical and doubting. Does anyone believe they have entertained angels by inviting strangers to the table anymore? The bible says that this is possible! Why doubt and ask if anyone actually ever experienced this??? Where is the childlike acceptance of what the bible testifies to?

A sinner asumes that everyone is just like him...to one with a dark eye everything is dark.

To the one who has faith in God ALL things are possible. One either has this faith...or not.

So basically your saying there is no scriptural evidence that a person can walk perfectly as Christ did after being born again.

I believe that I am justified, righteous, holy, and faultless because of what Jesus did on the cross just as the scriptures declare. While it may yet to be fully realized doesn't change the fact that God is satisfied and at peace with me all because of what Christ did at the cross.

But it seems some hold to a religious paradigm that salvation must be earned.

mark s · Jul 4, 2012

Prentis said:
Those who are so stuck on salvation and devising a plan to declare themselves saved are seeking to save their life... And will in turn lose it.

Hi Prentis,

This first part is so obviously a red herring, there is no need to respond other than to point that out. We declare the Scriptures.

You know, it's very revealing to read through these threads of debates of salvation by grace versus works based salvation, and to see who's posts are filled with Scriptures, and who's posts are nearly devoid of Scripture.

But this is the part I particularly wanted to respond to:

Christianity is not about salvation first, but about intimacy with the Son and the Father. Salvation comes as a result, yes. We are saved from our old lives, from the world, to a new life in Christ Jesus, where we live by his Spirit.

How ever can you have intimacy with the Son and the Father without reconciliation first???

This brings up the question, how exactly are you defining "salvation"? What does this word mean to you?

To declare that we are saved from the condemnation that is given to the old life all the while not having to walk in the new life offered in Christ Jesus is akin to crying 'Peace, peace' when there is no peace.

This is that "works based salvation" I refer to.

Akin to crying "peace, when there is no peace"? Hardly.

If your salvation from condemnation is based on your future behavior, this is works based, and not grace. Plain and simple.

Also plain and simple:

Romans 5:1-2 ESV
(1) Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(2) Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Having been born again - regenerated as a child of God, we then receive the power to walk in the spirit, no longer a slave to sin. Salvation gives to us that ability, It is not dependant upon our having that ability.

Romans 6:6-7 ESV
(6) We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
(7) For one who has died has been set free from sin.

The blind man who does not believe in the power of God to conform us to his Son by the Spirit believes this teaching to be legalism because he understands only and knows only the power of the flesh. Thus any form of godliness must to him be a lie, since in his experience, there is no power by which one may indeed truly be conformed to Christ, both in action and in Spirit. Thus a carnal man teaches carnal men that God is powerless to make us like his Son, and has in turn made a way whereby, though we remain corrupt, we save our wretched lives.

This argument of yours here . . . how to untangle it?

Rather than try, I will simply continue to proclaim truth.

When we believe in Jesus, receiving His, God gives us rebirth. We cannot earn it. Our rebirth - salvation, that is, the forgiveness of sins, and becoming a child of God forever - is permanent, and enables us to live for God. The spiritual man teaches spiritual men that God's indwelling Spirit has given us new life, and that new life is ours eternally, and will change us to the image of Jesus Christ.

Love in Christ,
Mark

haz · Jul 4, 2012

Hi Episkopis,

You said regarding my previous post to Kidron: "Episkopos sure would seem like a bad dude according to this proof!"

Those on the forum here can decide for themselves looking back through your posts to confirm if what I said is correct.
Most here do know without having to check it out that you offer little to no scripture to support your works of the law gospel. Your main argument has been to consistently tell others (without scriptural support) they do not have the truth like you have.

As you prefer your own words instead of quoting God's word, I have taken the liberty of quoting some of your claims below. This is simply to confirm your lukewarm grace+works of the law gospel for others here on this forum:

"Grace is the power of God towards us that enables us to DO His commandments."
"So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it. Sin proves that we are not abiding in Christ. The law is simply revealing who we are."
"Nobody has immunity from any law"
"Grace is a MEANS of perfectly obeying the law of Christ."
"Your elimination of the law as a gauge shows that you espouse lawlessness."

The problem here Episkopis is that Christians are not under the law for righteousness (Gal 5:18, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, 1Tim 1:9, Gal 3:25). Why should it be a gauge that determines our righteousness?

You also said: "Jesus Christ doesn't sin and neither will we when we abide in Him."
"When you have truly experienced grace from heaven you will understand that sin finds no place in one that is filled with the Spirit"
"Those who have actually experienced this grace can testify of the overcoming power that accompanies a subsequent abiding in the presence of God."
"The soul that sins...it shall die"

As you yourself admit you "sin" (being lawless) then your own doctrine reveals that you do not abide in Christ (and should die). And in spite of not abiding in Christ/not walking in the Spirit, you claim to be one of the very few with understanding of the truth.
Sadly for you, your lukewarm grace+works of the law gospel is not truth.

Regarding the "bad dude" description you used, scripture uses even stronger words describing those who try to lead others away from grace and into works of the law.

Kidron · Jul 4, 2012

Episkopos said:
Statements such as this show a complete disregard for the truth.. You said

This is the very opposite of what Jesus said. He came not to abolish the law but fulfill the law. And grace causes us to fulfill the law in Christ and He in us. Notice this...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The law is not sinful...men are. Should we destroy the law so that sinners can hide their sins without any form of detection? God forbid! Are we coming to the light or looking to hide in darkness? There are lawless people here that think that is what Jesus did. The law is perfect. Men cannot follow it. So Jesus came to help us fulfill the law by dying for our past lives and being resurrected in order to impart new life... a life that overcomes sin and fulfills the law. Behold all things are become new....a new nature and a new power to do the commandments of God.
That is the gospel.

We are called to cease from our works and turn to the living God and become renewed through the Spirit in order to remain in Christ and live through Him doing exactly as He has done here on earth.

As He IS so are WE in this world. We have THIS treasure in earthen vessels.

Episkopos said:
This is the very opposite of what Jesus said. He came not to abolish the law but fulfill the law. And grace causes us to fulfill the law in Christ and He in us. Notice this...

Yes, he fulfilled the Law because he had to meet its standards so that his sacrifice was accepted by his Father.
And only he can meet it....you cant and i cant..
And in Romans, if you care to read chapter 7, you are shown how the Law is abolished and why.
For example.....Romans 7:4 you are told that "you are become DEAD TO THE LAW BY THE BODY OF CHRIST".
Got that???
The law has no power or dominion over a born again believer.....Romans 6:14
In verse 6 you are told that you are" DELIVERED FROM THE LAW."
Do you understand the words "Delivered", "from", "the", and "Law".????????????????
Do you understand this verse.......Romans 3:28., "therefore we CONCLUDE that a man is jusitfied by FAITH without the deeds of the LAW."
Do you understand that the promise of the Grace of God by Faith, was given to Abraham who is justified by Faith alone?, Romans 4:2-5
And that Abraham is the father of all who BELIEVE, that is to say, that Faith is what connects us to Abraham and to God....Romans 4:16
See, God gave righteousness to Abraham only for Faith, and he gives it to us, exactly the same way.
The law, is nowhere in the plan of Salvation.
All the law can do, is show you your sins..........it cant save you from them and it cant redeem you.
The Law has been abolished..,2nd Corinthinas 3,11,13,,. by the body of Christ, who fulfilled it, and died to redeem us from it....Romans 7:4,6..
And this is why we are under GRACE and not under the LAW... John 1:17 & Romans 6:14

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Exactly,....we are now made the Righteousness of God, because God through Christ has cleared us of all sin debt, as Christ has paid for all our sins by dying for them.
Christians ARE the righteousness of God........this is the Gift of Righteousness....Romans 5:17....and its a Free gift.
God sees us as Sinless based on the fact that we have been forgiven, redeemed, and cleared of all judgment regarding our sins.
This is what the sacrifice of Jesus did for all born again believers.

The law is not sinful...men are. Should we destroy the law??

The law is already abolished...2nd Corinthians 3:13....it is separated from us and us from it by the Body of Christ...Romans 7:4,6....."Wherefore my brethren, YOU ALSO are become DEAD to the LAW by the BODY of CHRIST..........and verse 6....."But now YOU are DELIVERED from the LAW"......Romans 6:14.."you are not under the LAW but under GRACE".

K

..................

Prentis said:
You have twisted the scriptures to fit your delusion, Kidron.
s>

Well then, 4 of us......Jesus, Paul, Kidron, and the Word of God.....we are all suffering the same delusion....as we all agree that we are saved by Grace through faith, and this is a Free Gift, and this free gift has delivered me from the "law" and has imputed me with the very Righteousness of God himself..
Im as sinless as Christ until eternity ends..., as ive his righteousness according to his Father.

But as Paul and Peter agree, the kingdom is in power, and not in word. The gospel is that we can now walk as he walked in the same life, in reality, and cease from sin to live unto God. Anything less than that is a powerless scheme whereby men are trying to save their own skin... But those who seek to save their life will lose it.

Prentis said:
II cant lose anything that Jesus died to provide me for Free..
And actually, Prentis, the "gospel" ...(Just so you know) is that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, died as a sacrifice for the sins of the world (John 3:16 & 1st Corinthians 15:3-8)), was buried and rose again by the power of God, and offers this sacrifice,>His Righteousness< to any and all who will by repentance and Faith receive this free gift of righteousness...Romans 5:17
And one more thing Prentis, you sin every single day by word, deed, or thought., and only the blood of Christ keeps you forgiven
Nothing you do can ever save you, so immediately give up trying to pretend you are anything other then a sinner who has and is saved by the mercy of a God who himself bore all those sins you committed today, and tomorrow and next week and next year.

K

You have twisted the scriptures to fit your delusion, Kidron.

Well then, 4 of us......Jesus, Paul, Kidron, and the Word of God........we are all suffering the same delusion.......as we all agree that we are saved by Grace through faith, and this is a Free Gift, and this free gift has delivered me and all believers from the "law" and has imputed me with the very Righteousness of God himself..
Im as sinless as Christ till eternity ends, as ive his righteousness according to his Father.

But as Paul and Peter agree, the kingdom is in power, and not in word. The gospel is that we can now walk as he walked in the same life, in reality, and cease from sin to live unto God. Anything less than that is a powerless scheme whereby men are trying to save their own skin... But those who seek to save their life will lose it.

I cant lose anything that Jesus died to give me for FREE.
And actually, Prentis, the "gospel",(just so you know) is that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, died as a sacrifice for the sins of the world (John 3:16), was buried and rose again by the power of God, and offers this sacrifice, >His Righteousness< to any and all who will by repentance and Faith receive it...(1st Corinthians 15:3-8)
And one more thing Prentis,.... you sin every single day by word, deed, or thought., and only the blood of Christ keeps you forgiven if you are actually saved.
Nothing you do can ever save you, so give immediately give up trying to pretend you are anything other then a sinner who has and is saved by the mercy of a God who himself bore all those sins on a Cross that you committed today, and tomorrow, and next week, and next year.

K

.....................

Son of Man said:
How did you become a born again person?

I took Jesus and God took me..
Thats the short version.
The longer version is that i realized that i was alone in the world without hope and without God and i needed to change this as i became aware of it.
So, i discovered that God had a plan to restore me to him, to save me, to pardon me, and to give me eternal life, and that this offer was FREE as it was based not on what i could do to deserve it, but it was based entirely on God loving me so much that he died for all my sins to prove it.
So, i did what he told me to do, i repented, and i by faith received his Son as my sin bearing savior and the very instant i did this, God accepted me and claimed me as his SON.

What gospel did you believe to be saved?

There is only 1 real one..........1st Corinthians 15:3-8

....................

Episkopos · Jul 4, 2012

jiggyfly said:
So basically your saying there is no scriptural evidence that a person can walk perfectly as Christ did after being born again.

I believe that I am justified, righteous, holy, and faultless because of what Jesus did on the cross just as the scriptures declare. While it may yet to be fully realized doesn't change the fact that God is satisfied and at peace with me all because of what Christ did at the cross.

But it seems some hold to a religious paradigm that salvation must be earned.

No..rather salvation must be real and have the power spoken of in the bible. We show we are saved from the world as we overcome sin. Otherwise what would stop everyone to claim they were saved without any sense of reality? The lawless see themselves being entitled to do anything they want. This is the opposite of Christianity...and yet so many are doing exactly that...whatever they want. It is a case of making Jesus be what we want Him to be...rather than making us what Jesus wants us to be. The latter in some strange twisted way is seen as legalistic.

The law is already abolished...2nd Corinthians 3:13....it is separated from us and us from it by the Body of Christ...Romans 7:4,6....."Wherefore my brethren, YOU ALSO are become DEAD to the LAW by the BODY of CHRIST..........and verse 6....."But now YOU are DELIVERED from the LAW"......Romans 6:14.."you are not under the LAW but under GRACE".

Being delivered from the law does not mean the law was abolished. Being dead to the law is something that happens when a person is set free. The law continues to do it's work but we have been given a greater power so that the law no longer holds us.

For your reasoning to work, someone who is released from jail could only be free if the jailhouse were burned down. But if we burn down the jailhouse than ALL the prisoners go free into a total anarchy situation. This is what universalists believe. Sin all you like it doesn't matter cause there is no longer any laws. Go rape steal and kill! It's ok!! We're IMMUNE from judgment!!!

Now how ridiculous is your position? Completely!

Prentis · Jul 4, 2012

mark s said:
Hi Prentis,

This first part is so obviously a red herring, there is no need to respond other than to point that out. We declare the Scriptures.

You know, it's very revealing to read through these threads of debates of salvation by grace versus works based salvation, and to see who's posts are filled with Scriptures, and who's posts are nearly devoid of Scripture.

But this is the part I particularly wanted to respond to:

How ever can you have intimacy with the Son and the Father without reconciliation first???

This brings up the question, how exactly are you defining "salvation"? What does this word mean to you?

This actually revealing of how you define salvation! You have just made salvation and reconciliation synonymous by your own words! And this is right as long as we do not tack on the assumption that 'salvation' means eternally secure. That is an added human understanding. One might be saved from drowning on Monday only to be hit by a car on Tuesday.

What good is it if men constantly quote scripture, but use one verse in a way that makes another verse to be a lie?

1 Peter 4 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
[sup]2 [/sup]That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

mark s said:
This is that "works based salvation" I refer to.

Akin to crying "peace, when there is no peace"? Hardly.

You admit then, as I posted, that you declare a salvation which is apart from walking in the new life offered in Christ Jesus.

mark s said:
If your salvation from condemnation is based on your future behavior, this is works based, and not grace. Plain and simple.

Also plain and simple:

Romans 5:1-2 ESV
(1) Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(2) Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Having been born again - regenerated as a child of God, we then receive the power to walk in the spirit, no longer a slave to sin. Salvation gives to us that ability, It is not dependant upon our having that ability.

Romans 6:6-7 ESV
(6) We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
(7) For one who has died has been set free from sin.

Amen to the verses! As those verses say, we are no longer slave to sin. If we are truly in Christ, we no longer walk in it, because we are dead to sin. We stand by grace indeed, that is, the power of God unto righteousness, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us.

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

But you yourself declare salvation in Christ apart from such a life... lived in Christ. Hereby, you short-circuit the gospel and render it powerless, turning it into a scheme to save carnal men.

mark s said:
When we believe in Jesus, receiving His, God gives us rebirth. We cannot earn it. Our rebirth - salvation, that is, the forgiveness of sins, and becoming a child of God forever - is permanent, and enables us to live for God. The spiritual man teaches spiritual men that God's indwelling Spirit has given us new life, and that new life is ours eternally, and will change us to the image of Jesus Christ.

Love in Christ,
Mark

You use the right words, and preach what seems right, but then declare it powerless. You say we are in Christ although we live by the power of the flesh and walk in sin, thus you cry peace peace, but again, there is no peace. You preach a gospel which makes men believe they are saved without them truly being regenerated, and thus immunizes them to the power of the gospel.

Kidron said:

I cant lose anything that Jesus died to give me for FREE.
And actually, Prentis, the "gospel",(just so you know) is that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, died as a sacrifice for the sins of the world (John 3:16), was buried and rose again by the power of God, and offers this sacrifice, >His Righteousness< to any and all who will by repentance and Faith receive it...(1st Corinthians 15:3-8)
And one more thing Prentis,.... you sin every single day by word, deed, or thought., and only the blood of Christ keeps you forgiven if you are actually saved.
Nothing you do can ever save you, so give immediately give up trying to pretend you are anything other then a sinner who has and is saved by the mercy of a God who himself bore all those sins on a Cross that you committed today, and tomorrow, and next week, and next year

By faith we receive the same power in which Christ was resurrected, not a free pass. So much for 'clothed with power from on high' as was with the disciples, according to you, that is impossible!

Again, you are claiming the benefits of a new life while still living in the old life... You are in unbelief as to the regenerating and saving power of Christ that actually conforms us to him.

Episkopos · Jul 4, 2012

Kidron said:
Yes, Episkopis, is typical of someone who, if they are saved, and im not saying they are not, nor am i saying they are..., is certainly mentally locked up in extreme legalism.
Ive not read their reply today, so, im hoping they have the courage to answer my question i posed to them 2 or 3 times about "salvation".
If they answered it, good for me, im certainly looking forward to hearing how they explain God's gift of Salvation now that ive discovered how deeply legalistic they are in their theology
And also,...there is one thing about it that has to be considered.
The Grace of God, as provided by the Cross, is a free Gift., and you cant receive it if you are trapped inside the type legalistic mindset that Episkopis has locked themselves into.

God set up the system of salvation based on Him dying for you, and providing it for free.
So, if a person cant understand this, and cant accept it, then how can they possess it?
If a person refuses to allow God's gift to be freely given and never earned, then how can they believe according to the truth?

This is why i keep asking Episkopis to explain his understanding of Salvation, so that i can see exactly what im dealing with , tho, im certain i already know.

If you were to find out all that he believes, i would wager a Mars bar and a Pepsi that Episkopis believes you can lose your salvation.
I would wager that Mars bar and a cold Pepsi that he would tell you that "no one can know for certain if they are going to heaven until after they die".
He believes that "only those who endure to the end can be saved".
He believes that water baptism saves you.
He believes that faith alone in the shed blood of Christ is not Salvation but rather its the cross and our "Living it", "confessing our sins", and so forth that defines salvation.
Episkopis, is not someone who is familiar with the gift of righteousness, nor is he familiar with our position "in Christ".
I wonder what part Mary plays in his theology...
It would be very interesting to find out what denomination he belong to,.(Legalistic Episcopalian)?????? as im certain this is where his issue accepting the free gift of salvation all began.

For my money, i could not ask for a better type to show up on my Thread.
He is exactly the extreme legalistic type that a faith based born again Christian who reads this thread needs to become exposed to, because in this any Christian who is interested in sound NT doctrine can learn what to avoid, why to avoid it, and how.
For me, its always interesting to read the scriptures one of these types uses to prove their mindset.
I can always count on the book of Hebrews to play a huge role in their mixed up theological mess.

K

You obviously have been indoctrinated by men against the truth. You have advanced into fables. I thank God that He has hidden the truth from seekers of their own advancement and revealed the truth to babes. It is marvelous and wonderful!!! Hallelujah!

brightmorningstar · Jul 4, 2012

I agree with Kidron's OP in the context of Mark S's response.
The key for me in the balance between licence and legalism is Galatians 5. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.

[sup]16 [/sup]So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. [sup]17 [/sup]For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[sup][c][/sup] you want. [sup]18 [/sup]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Episkopos · Jul 4, 2012

brightmorningstar said:
I agree with Kidron's OP in the context of Mark S's response.
The key for me in the balance between licence and legalism is Galatians 5. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.

[sup]16 [/sup]So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. [sup]17 [/sup]For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[sup][c][/sup] you want. [sup]18 [/sup]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Agreed! But that is not what the OP is about. The OP states that we need to do things for God AFTER we have claimed we are saved. That is like saying we can rob a bank if we do the sign of the cross first. The OP is based on a dark understanding that is not at all in the light.

veteran · Jul 4, 2012

It's very dangerous to take Paul's preaching in Romans 7 too far.

In Romans and Galatians, the matter never is that the law is dead, nor completely removed. What Paul taught was that IF... we walk by The Spirit, then WE are dead... to the law. Kidron, you've got it backwards.

The way Paul says WE become dead to the law by walking in The Spirit, is because by walking in The Spirit there is no law against it. That actually means being ALIGNED... with God's law when we walk by The Spirit.

Further in Gal.5, Paul confirms how the law is still very much alive, but FOR those who walk by their flesh instead.

Christ nailed the handwriting of ordinances of the law that was against us to His cross, but that was not all... that God's law contains.

mark s · Jul 4, 2012

The only fable here is the notion that you can somehow earn your salvation through a sufficient number of good works.

To anyone who thinks this is true, recommend the repeated reading of Galatians, Romans, and Colossians. Read every word. Listen to what it says. And let the truth of God's Word release you into God's glorious grace!

Love in Christ,
Mark

jiggyfly · Jul 5, 2012

Episkopos said:
No..rather salvation must be real and have the power spoken of in the bible. We show we are saved from the world as we overcome sin. Otherwise what would stop everyone to claim they were saved without any sense of reality? The lawless see themselves being entitled to do anything they want. This is the opposite of Christianity...and yet so many are doing exactly that...whatever they want. It is a case of making Jesus be what we want Him to be...rather than making us what Jesus wants us to be. The latter in some strange twisted way is seen as legalistic.

Have you read what Paul said here?

20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as,21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”?22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them.23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.
Col 2:20-23 (NLT)

Being delivered from the law does not mean the law was abolished. Being dead to the law is something that happens when a person is set free. The law continues to do it's work but we have been given a greater power so that the law no longer holds us.

For your reasoning to work, someone who is released from jail could only be free if the jailhouse were burned down. But if we burn down the jailhouse than ALL the prisoners go free into a total anarchy situation. This is what universalists believe. Sin all you like it doesn't matter cause there is no longer any laws. Go rape steal and kill! It's ok!! We're IMMUNE from judgment!!!

Now how ridiculous is your position? Completely!

Do you understand that the law was contained within the old covenant and that it was a contract with Israel?

1 : a usually formal, solemn, and binding agreement :

2

a : a written agreement or promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some actionb : the common-law action to recover damages for breach of such a contract

Once a contract has been fulfilled nothing more needs to be done regarding it. If you borrow from a bank and fulfill the contract do you continue to send the bank money???

Jesus fulfilled the old covenant containing the law in order to receive the benefits therein but had the covenant been abolished those benefits would have been lost.

You may think you know what universalists believe but you should investigate their own materials rather than just submitting an opinion based on hearsay.
You may just find that the term universalist is widely used to describe many different thoughts and beliefs of various groups much like christianity especially in religious circles. Is it fair to say that since you are a christian that you worship and believe the same as the catholics?

While I do believe in universal reconciliation I do not believe "Sin all you like it doesn't matter cause there is no longer any laws. Go rape steal and kill! It's ok!! We're IMMUNE from judgment!!!"

Episkopos · Jul 5, 2012

jiggyfly said:
Have you read what Paul said here?

20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as,21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”?22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them.23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.
Col 2:20-23 (NLT)

Do you understand that the law was contained within the old covenant and that it was a contract with Israel?

1 : a usually formal, solemn, and binding agreement :

2

a : a written agreement or promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some actionb : the common-law action to recover damages for breach of such a contract

Once a contract has been fulfilled nothing more needs to be done regarding it. If you borrow from a bank and fulfill the contract do you continue to send the bank money???

Jesus fulfilled the old covenant containing the law in order to receive the benefits therein but had the covenant been abolished those benefits would have been lost.

You may think you know what universalists believe but you should investigate their own materials rather than just submitting an opinion based on hearsay.
You may just find that the term universalist is widely used to describe many different thoughts and beliefs of various groups much like christianity especially in religious circles. Is it fair to say that since you are a christian that you worship and believe the same as the catholics?

While I do believe in universal reconciliation I do not believe "Sin all you like it doesn't matter cause there is no longer any laws. Go rape steal and kill! It's ok!! We're IMMUNE from judgment!!!"

As for the law....

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

The universe is held together by laws....there is no chaos in God. And even if there is...it has a purpose. God's ways are higher than our ways. His laws are immutable and unchanging...otherwise the universe would be thrown off balance.

The scheme that many adhere to instead of the true gospel makes God blind to the truth and changes God's law in order to protect a rebellious people. But this is folly. God did not spare natural Israel and He is not going to give the Gentiles an easier time. On the contrary Jesus went only to the people of the law while He was here. He was not teaching them to break the law...

So in Christ there is no difference...no respect of persons. We are all subject to the same laws. We all fall because of gravity and we all get older and die in the flesh.

The gospel is that Jesus Christ made a new way apart from the law that accomplishes the requirements of the law. Jesus came to fulfill the law in us!!! That is amazing. How does He do this? Through a new creation IN Himself. Is it according to a secret knowledge? No! It is published in the whole world. Is it according to a claim on the promises of scripture? It is the opposite. A Christian claims nothing for Himself.

So then Christ through the new creation causes men to walk as He walked on earth and do the things He did...perfectly. Through Christ we fulfill the law because we are walking already in the kingdom....and this is possible because our old natures are dead and we are living in a new life where ALL things are made into God's reality. We overcome sin in this way...by remaining in the presence of God.

veteran said:
It's very dangerous to take Paul's preaching in Romans 7 too far.

In Romans and Galatians, the matter never is that the law is dead, nor completely removed. What Paul taught was that IF... we walk by The Spirit, then WE are dead... to the law. Kidron, you've got it backwards.

The way Paul says WE become dead to the law by walking in The Spirit, is because by walking in The Spirit there is no law against it. That actually means being ALIGNED... with God's law when we walk by The Spirit.

Further in Gal.5, Paul confirms how the law is still very much alive, but FOR those who walk by their flesh instead.

Christ nailed the handwriting of ordinances of the law that was against us to His cross, but that was not all... that God's law contains.

Kudos here!!!

Axehead · Jul 7, 2012

Many Christians say, "God only requires one to be righteous. His Son". The thought goes that since He is righteous, God does not require me to be righteous. This is a typical response coming from Christendom, today.

Does God require men to be righteous? Here many Christians would respond, "No". They take a view called positional holiness that can be expressed as follows: "Oh, yes, I am very unholy and I commit sin; I sin in thought, word and deed every day, but by virtue of my position in Christ, all Christ's perfect righteousness is accredited to me so that God does not even see my sin; He sees only Christ and since I have my position in Christ, I remain holy before God."

The logic is, because of my position in Christ, God does not see me, He sees only Christ. Since Christ is righteous, I am righteous.

In this view one see righteousness as a legal position in Christ rather than a life of righteousness. They would say you cannot be righteous, only reckoned righteous. Faith enters into a legalistic reckoning of all sins, past, present and future, as already remitted. A permanent justification encompasses all the future sins he may commit, and nothing he does will change his position in Christ. Faith has completed the work, he no longer is responsible to repent.

Also a certain gnosticism has entered the church that says the knowledge of it makes it so. In this view, righteousness is just a matter of knowledge. If you know it, then it is yours. Confess it, and it will be so. This accomodates the positional view of righteousness. But, does a confession of righteousness make one righteous?

Let me say that again: Does a confession of righteousness make one righteous?

Is faith a substitute for repentance?

I think the church has given up on personal righteousness. Does God require men to be righteous or is it something that is impossible so we just say I am righteous because of Jesus Christ? We can't live half truths.

So, if Christ came to make men righteous, how does one experience righteousness as a work of the Spirit? Is this supposed to be an experiential reality in our lives or not?

Is there such a thing as the transformation of righteousness in a believer?

I believe there is because without righteousness the glory of God will not abide among men. It is not enough to be "declared righteous" and to say we are "justified", there must be real fruit. There must be some manifestation of the work of righteousness by the Spirit in a person. Otherwise, there is no reality of Christ in our lives and we just continue down the "happy" road of deception.

As the Church today is praying for revival the words of the prophet still speak with clear direction.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God

Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

True believing leads to the inworking (sanctification) and the outworking of our faith (true works authored by the Holy Spirit).

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. John 15:14

Obedience is not legalism.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Here is a question for you: Was Jesus' obedience to His Father a product of love or legalism?

Episkopos · Jul 7, 2012

Here is one of the few verses in the bible that are used as an argument for gnosticism. (We have at least one gnostic on this forum).

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This meaning of this verse is twisted to mean that Paul simultaneously is following 2 opposing laws. But this makes no sense as every other thing Paul says shows the opposite directions these take.

So why does Paul end a chapter on this note? Well first...Paul did not write in chapters and verses. He wrote a whole letter...the divisions were made to make things easier to find and study. So that verse in not a final conclusion but a clarification of the forces at work in all men who seek to follow God. .

Paul is making a distinction between the 2 forces at play in the lives of men. We can obey either the flesh...or the Lord. We can be led by the Spirit or else obey our own urges. The sheer lunacy of thinking that Paul is offering an excuse to let the body do it's own thing while claiming to walk in the Spirit is well....gnostic!!!

Prentis · Jul 7, 2012

Axehead said:
Many Christians say, "God only requires one to be righteous. His Son". The thought goes that since He is righteous, God does not require me to be righteous. This is a typical response coming from Christendom, today.

Does God require men to be righteous? Here many Christians would respond, "No". They take a view called positional holiness that can be expressed as follows: "Oh, yes, I am very unholy and I commit sin; I sin in thought, word and deed every day, but by virtue of my position in Christ, all Christ's perfect righteousness is accredited to me so that God does not even see my sin; He sees only Christ and since I have my position in Christ, I remain holy before God."

The logic is, because of my position in Christ, God does not see me, He sees only Christ. Since Christ is righteous, I am righteous.

In this view one see righteousness as a legal position in Christ rather than a life of righteousness. They would say you cannot be righteous, only reckoned righteous. Faith enters into a legalistic reckoning of all sins, past, present and future, as already remitted. A permanent justification encompasses all the future sins he may commit, and nothing he does will change his position in Christ. Faith has completed the work, he no longer is responsible to repent.

Also a certain gnosticism has entered the church that says the knowledge of it makes it so. In this view, righteousness is just a matter of knowledge. If you know it, then it is yours. Confess it, and it will be so. This accomodates the positional view of righteousness. But, does a confession of righteousness make one righteous?

Let me say that again: Does a confession of righteousness make one righteous?

Is faith a substitute for repentance?

I think the church has given up on personal righteousness. Does God require men to be righteous or is it something that is impossible so we just say I am righteous because of Jesus Christ? We can't live half truths.

So, if Christ came to make men righteous, how does one experience righteousness as a work of the Spirit? Is this supposed to be an experiential reality in our lives or not?

Is there such a thing as the transformation of righteousness in a believer?

I believe there is because without righteousness the glory of God will not abide among men. It is not enough to be "declared righteous" and to say we are "justified", there must be real fruit. There must be some manifestation of the work of righteousness by the Spirit in a person. Otherwise, there is no reality of Christ in our lives and we just continue down the "happy" road of deception.

As the Church today is praying for revival the words of the prophet still speak with clear direction.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God

Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

True believing leads to the inworking (sanctification) and the outworking of our faith (true works authored by the Holy Spirit).

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. John 15:14

Obedience is not legalism.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Here is a question for you: Was Jesus' obedience to His Father a product of love or legalism?

Amen Axehead!

Very well said...

How to understand your sins.....now that you are born again.

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