Does the bible prohibit a woman from being a "pastor"?

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neophyte

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Jesus along with His true followers = ordination of men [ Biblical ] for His One True Church, along with ''one" interpretation of Holy Scripture.

Mere-men along with their true followers = ordination of women [ unbiblical ] amongst many of their 30,000 unbiblical churches and cults along with about as many conflicting interpretations of Scripture.
 

th1b.taylor

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Well put OP, Kidron. I was saved 1/1/90, just 24 days short of my 45th. I have devoted the interviening time to the study of my copy of te scriptures and am presently, at the age of 67 and in a wheelchair, egaged in pulpit supply, as needed. Each Sunday Morning I teach the Grumpy Old Men´s class with my Deacon co-teacher. I am guilty of, consistantly, teaching submission to the will of God in ¨all¨ matters.

A note on the teaching of Paul, and worthy of consideration, is the truth that he was seated at the foot of Christ for three years of study, one on one. (Gal. 1:16-18) And when we consider Mal. 3:6a and allow the light of this passage to shine on all of the New Testament, it is not hard for the Spirit of God to teach us the truth of women pastors, there is no such thing that is of God.
 

dragonfly

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Hi Kidron,

That was quite a rant about money! And poverty! And sickness! All because I quoted a few words from our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ?

then why castigate any believer whom God wants to bless financially?

I don't think I did.

Look, you know what poverty does?
It traps you into a survival situation, and in this situation you are not able to give most of your time to God, because you are spending all your time trying to survive.
Listen, TIME is how you spend your Christianity........understand?
And if you have a life that is spent trying to survive, then all your time is not being spent for God.

'Listen, TIME is how you spend your Christianity....'

And guess what? God is with the poor in their poverty every second of the day and night. It is not a sin to be poor. God is looking on the heart of the 'poor' person, to see whether it is circumcised with the circumcision of Jesus Christ.

He is not counting the seconds that they are farming, or serving or however they earn money, thinking that they are not also serving Him in that situation. It's not a matter of either/or. Life is all of Him and for Him.

Colossians 3:17
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
 

biggandyy

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I aspire to be rich monetarily. But in my giving I don't let my right hand let my left hand know what it's doing. Joyce and Benny and the others are receiving their reward now. I don't envy them, I pity them. They are giving up eternal reward for the admiration of men.

----------You know I'm right.
 

neophyte

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Topic is: "Does the bible prohibit a woman from being a 'pastor' . Answer is found in post #21
 

mjrhealth

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Lets see, the apostles where jewish, their " tradition" did not allow women, the only thing that stops a women from becoming a pastor is men. Lets see someone take this dispute up with God and ask Him for His opinion, what do you think He would say,If they have a willing heart why should He not use them, we are free under Christ, God is free to choose whom He pleases and He cares not for mens traditions and opinions.

In all His love
 

dragonfly

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Hi Nomad,

In post #5 you stated:
Notice how Paul appeals to the order of creation as well as the fact that Eve was deceived. Neither of these are exclusively "Jewish" concepts.

Paul made this comment in reference to teachers specifically. This thread is about pastors. They are two entirely different callings, and God equips each with very different gifts and burdens for the flock, appropriate to the calling.
 

Nomad

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Paul made this comment in reference to teachers specifically. This thread is about pastors. They are two entirely different callings, and God equips each with very different gifts and burdens for the flock, appropriate to the calling.

No, Paul did not limit his comments to teachers specifically as you can see below. A pastor, Biblically speaking, is an "overseer." This is a position of authority. Exercising authority is an inherent function of an overseer. Therefore, a woman cannot be a pastor.

1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
 

dragonfly

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Hi again Nomad,

Exercising authority is an inherent function of an overseer.

I would be interested to hear how you interpret 'exercising authority', using scriptural examples (OT and NT) to show a 'pastor' 'exercising' 'authority' over either individual sheep, or, the flock. What I'm looking for, is the normal everyday of what a pastor would 'do', rather than exceptions.

Many thanks.
 

Winnetou

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Apostle Paul was clear 1 Timothy 2 about women not making up the Christian authority over men, nor as teachers over men (i.e., the pastor office). But he did not prohibit women from witnessing The Gospel of Jesus Christ, nor with their wanting to learn.

Even Paul knews that in the early church were women as Diacons, local church leader (house church) and Apostles (e.g. Junia from Romans 16:7). It changed after the first century.. Why? Different reasons such as: male want to have had the only power, the Apostles are death, Christ doesn't come back to earth (as they expected it).
 

dragonfly

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Hi Winnetou,

and Apostles (e.g. Junia from Romans 16:7)


1 Corinthians 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death:
for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers,
after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues


I'm not making a case for women in authority over men, but, what can a sister in the Lord do, if God gives her a ministry which seems to fly in the face of Paul's teaching, especially if she is in submission to a husband or local elders, or has oversight from a mature brother in the Lord?

Should she go by the letter, or by the Spirit? Should she question her leading and refuse to go, and risk having to explain her decision in terms of 'doctrine' when she meets her Maker, or should she go, but be willing to have God remove her when she has completed what He sent her to do?

The idea that we become something, because God has commanded us to speak or act for Him in a new situation, is, I think, a mistake. We do not gain 'status' or 'title', by obeying the Lord, or, by walking in the Spirit. Men give titles. The Lord reserves our reward for another day. The appelations which Paul uses are a simple way to distinguish between different roles and ministries in the body, the local church.
 

HammerStone

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Luke 2:36-38 ESV And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from when she was a virgin, and then as a widow until she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day. And coming up at that very hour she began to give thanks to God and to speak of him to all who were waiting for the redemption of Jerusalem.

I'll be totally blunt on this one. This is a topic in which I struggle. I've gone into Scripture time and again with the conservative/reformed position on women, but I find the usual citations of Paul's letters lacking in a number of regards.

First and foremost, is the above passage. Anna's called a prophetess by the Bible. If you look at that along with I Corinthians 12:28, then I think it speaks volumes what a woman can do. I don't think I need to remind anyone what a prophet does. If you examine what Paul said in passages like I Timothy 2:12 and try to read it as women cannot speak - then these two verses (Luke 2:38 & I Timothy 2:12) would necessarily be in conflict - something I think most of us here will say that the Bible doesn't do. For in Luke, it clearly says she speaks of God to all and not just women. There must be a more specific line of reasoning behind what Paul says in Timothy, then. (This is admittedly a rhetorical statement, my study yields that Paul made the statement about gossiping women contradicting what their Godly husbands were preaching).

Second is Junia. It's not Junias, it's Junia. I don't see a reason to make the name masculine.

Third is the story of Priscilla (aka Prisca) and Aquilla.

I Corinthians 16:19 ESV The churches of Asia send you greetings. Aquila and Prisca, together with the church in their house, send you hearty greetings in the Lord.

Note the position of Aquila and Prisca in this passage. Check it out in your Bibles, but in both Romans 16:3 and II Timothy 4:19, the names are inverted. This was not done because Paul (or a scribe) got lazy or didn't care. In this culture, this was a deliberate move. In addition, Paul goes a long way to say "together" in I Corinthians, certainly implying she had involved duties with the church. Again, if you follow an ultra-conservative/ultra-literal rendering of what Paul said in Timothy, then why would he mention the wife?

And last, but not least, Timothy's faith was shepherded by the women in his family:

II Timothy 1:5-6 ESV I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well. For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands...
 

revturmoil

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This is probably one of the most controvercial issues in the church. The following is something I posted some time ago.

Women were ordained as deacons. The word servant is one word for deacon and minister.

Romans 16:1 ??¶I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: 2That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Priscilla and her husband Aquila were workers in the church.

Romans 16:3-6 ??Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.

Women were the first to go to the tomb and the first to see the resurrected Christ (John 20:11-18 and were also persecuted for their faith.

There was a wealthy unmarried woman named Lydia who had church services at her home not only with her household but also with 'the brethren'

Acts 16:14-15 ??And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Acts 16:40 ??And they went out of the prison, and entered into the house of Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed.

Women were also presecuted.

Acts 8:3 ??As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

1 Corinthians 16:19 ??¶The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

In the ancient world the place of women was low and the Jews had even a lower idea of them. In Jewish culture to teach the law to a women was to cast pearls before swine and it was forbidden to speak to a woman on the street. And the Corinthian church was mostly made up of Jewish believers who came out of the paganistic practices of the city of Corinth.

Paul mentions how he was taught in the Scriptures by Timothy's mother and grandmother.

Philippians 4:2-3 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Women were also able to receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:17 ??And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

We need to remember that Paul was dealing with an infant church in a paganistic city whose influence infiltrated the church. So we shouldn't take this out of context and consider when and to whom it was written. There were a host of problems in the Corinthian church including a host of sexual problems. It was filled with paganism and the city is best known for it's immorality. Much of these paganistic practices were brought into the church. Sexual sins of all kinds were commonly practiced and accepted. The city had 1000 sacred prostitutes that would walk the streets at night. These were just some of the problems Paul had to deal with in the Corinthian church. We should not make this issue of women preachers a universal rule for the church. Women keeping their silence and usurping authority to men was more applicable to the Church at Corinth.

The gifts of the Spirit was not only avaliable to men but also to women.
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:.

What seems to be prohibitted in the Corinthian church was women speaking. In the home, the teaching of men by women was prohibitted since men had authority over them in spiritual things. And this was largely influenced by Jewish culture and the background of the city of Corinth, and the condition of the church and all of it's problems. He is not prohibiting a woman from evangelizing or sharing with men since there are several instances of women having the brethren in their home. Women were responsible for bearing and teaching children and keeping the household. They had more responsibility than men at home. Couple that with the sexual issues of the Corinthian church one can understand why Paul found it fitting for women to keep silent in the Corinthian church.

Titus 2:1-5 ??¶But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Paul's conception of the role of women in the Corinthian church was influenced by the background of the age, the low status Jews held toward women, and the paganism of the city of Corinth and how that infiltrated the church. It shouldn't be a universal teaching about women in the church.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Chuch Smith said,

Paul in writing to the Corinthians mentions the women praying or prophesying in a public assembly and he doesn't come down on them for that. He doesn't say that that's prohibited. And "he that prophesies speaks to the church for edification, for comfort, for exhortation" (I Corinthians 14:3), and I see these as areas where women can minister effectively.


I have said that servant was one word for minister and deacon. But the point is this. You have to look at the context and setting. The Corinthian church was mostly Jews in a paganistic culture. The Jews already had an even lower view of women. You couldn't talk to a woman on the street and teaching the law to women was considered casting pearls before swine. We have to consider all of this in Paul's teaching.

I think this is why certain limitations are placed on the women at Corinth.

Women usually make up more than half the congregation in todays churches. So I see it as a plus. And I think there are different roles for men and women anyway.

This was the bible in it's infancy and in today's world those limitations are gone.
 

neophyte

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The following is the real deal on who received the only "Teaching Authority" direct from Jesus-

Matthew 16:18-19 / Isaiah 22:22

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
"And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open."
Most Protestants believe that "church" refers to the mass of Christian believers throughout the world, loosely connected to each other by their faith in the Bible alone. But these verses demonstrate that the "Church" Jesus Christ founded is not an invisible body of loosely-connected believers, but a visible and hierarchical institution built upon the person of Peter, who was given supreme authority, an office for dynastic succession, and the gift of infallibility. This Church can only be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
In these verses, we see the following. First, Jesus builds His Church (“ecclesia”) upon the person of Peter. As we learned in the previous link on The Church, Jesus changes Simon's name to "Kepha," and says that on this "Kepha" He will build the Church. Kepha, in Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke), means a massive rock formation, and Jesus' use of Kepha to rename Peter signifies Peter's foundational leadership in the Church. (See also Mark 3:16 and John 1:42 where Jesus renames Simon "Cephas" which is a transliteration of the Aramaic "Kepha."). Only the Catholic Church recognizes and proves through an unbroken lineage of successors that her foundation is Peter.
Secondly, Jesus says the powers of death will never prevail against the Church. So even though Jesus appoints sinful human beings such as Peter to lead the Church, Jesus promises that hell will not prevail against her. Because the powers of hell refer to the supernatural, this must mean that the Church, although lead by sinful people, is divinely protected. Because she is so protected, the Church cannot lead the faithful into supernatural error. That is, she is unable to teach error on matters of faith and morals. This inability to teach error on faith and morals is called "infallibility" (it has nothing to do with the sinfulness of the Church's leaders, which deals with "impeccability"). If the Church were not infallible, the powers of death would indeed prevail over her sinful members. The consistent, 2,000 years of the Church’s teaching on faith and morals proves that Jesus has kept His promise.
Third, Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven. While many Protestants think that the gift of the "keys" means that Jesus appointed Peter as the guardian of the gates of heaven, the "keys" actually refer to Peter's authority over the earthly Church (which Jesus often described as the "kingdom of heaven." Matthew 13:24-52; 25:1-2; Mark 4:26-32; Luke 9:27; 13:19-20, etc.) In the Old Davidic kingdom, the king had a prime minister on whose shoulder God placed the keys of the kingdom (Isaiah 22:22). Similarly, the new kingdom of Christ also has a prime minister (Peter and his successors) who is given the keys of the kingdom. The keys not only represent the authority the prime minister has to rule over God's people in the king's absence, but also the means of effecting dynastic succession to the prime minister's office (for example, in Isaiah 22:20-22, Eliakim replaces Shebna as prime minister in the Old Davidic kingdom). Only the Catholic Church claims and proves a succession of prime ministers (popes) all the way back to Peter, and this succession is facilitated by the passing of the keys of the kingdom.
Finally, Jesus declares to Peter that whatever he binds and looses on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. As in the Old Davidic kingdom, whenever Peter the prime minister opens, no one shall shut, and whenever he shuts, no one shall open. Jesus, therefore, gives Peter the authority to make decisions that will be ratified in eternity. In order for sinful Peter (and his successors through the passing on of the "keys") to make such decisions, he must be divinely protected. Once again, this evidences Jesus' gift of infallibility to the Church. Only the Catholic Church claims and has proven that her 2,000 year-old teachings on faith and morals, which have never changed, are infallibly proclaimed.​
Written by John Salza at Scripture Catholic
 

dragonfly

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Hi Kaoticprofit,

teaching the law to women was considered casting pearls before swine

What is your authority for saying this? Perhaps the scripture gives a rosier picture than real life.

Another way of interpreting Paul's instruction for women to keep silence, is that in synagogues the men and women sat separately (as they still do in some churches today), and the men did all the talking and leading. I've never been to a synagogue, so I don't know quite what this looks like, or whether women are allowed to pray. We know from scripture there were times when they could pray, and prophecy was always welcome, even under the Old Covenant.

Now having received the Holy Spirit, they have a part to play in the body, and they need to be waiting on the Lord just as much as the men, so that they are ready to pray or prophesy when moved by the Holy Spirit; and they need to be listening to the teaching and exposition of scriptures so that they are properly instructed in doctrine, and can teach their children at home, in the New Covenant.
 

revturmoil

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Hi Kaoticprofit,



What is your authority for saying this? Perhaps the scripture gives a rosier picture than real life.

Another way of interpreting Paul's instruction for women to keep silence, is that in synagogues the men and women sat separately (as they still do in some churches today), and the men did all the talking and leading. I've never been to a synagogue, so I don't know quite what this looks like, or whether women are allowed to pray. We know from scripture there were times when they could pray, and prophecy was always welcome, even under the Old Covenant.

Now having received the Holy Spirit, they have a part to play in the body, and they need to be waiting on the Lord just as much as the men, so that they are ready to pray or prophesy when moved by the Holy Spirit; and they need to be listening to the teaching and exposition of scriptures so that they are properly instructed in doctrine, and can teach their children at home, in the New Covenant.

There are a host of sites that say the same as this one...
Read #1.

http://www.ankerberg...es/BD2W0600.pdf
 

Hollyrock

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Now, this is an interesting topic, isnt it?

Ive 2 best friends who belong to different churches which both have a woman as the pastor.

Is this biblical, .....unbiblical?
Is this heresy or "out of order"?

Well, im an evangelist and a teacher and a minstrel, and ive been to seminary and ive studied the word for a long time.
I know what it says about this issue, but, im someone who would not condemn a woman if she felt called to be a pastor.
I would not encourage her to do it, because i can find no scriptural evidence to support this position as given by Paul.
As far as i can tell, Paul is pretty negative specific about women even being teachers in the body of Christ.....but on the other hand, i have to realize that Paul was also a jew, a pharisee, who was steeped in a very deep jewish theocracy which did not accept the liferole of a woman to be anything other then a baby maker or ministry helper, pretty much..
Maybe by now, had Paul lived another 2000 years, he would have softened his positioned a bit about woman being "teachers", as he said it was "him" who didnt let a woman teach, ....he never said this was a revelation from God he was sharing.
Did you notice this???
Would Paul in 2012 say that a woman cannot be a Pastor?..........yeah..
And the bible says clearly that a pastor/bishop is to be the , "husband of one wife"...
So, im pretty sure that eliminates a woman as a Pastor/Bishop..
So, unless you are a transsexual/transgender-minded girl you are not going to qualify for that scripture and if you are a transsexual/transgender-minded, you probably should not try to qualify, as a matter of fact, im certain you should not.

On the other hand, a woman can be in the ministry as any of the other 4 fold ministers.......she can evangelize, she can be an apostle, a teacher, (tho Paul might argue with this one)...
Certainly she can be a missionary, tho missionary/apostle are the back and front of the same coin.
She can do everything but be a pastor or perhaps a deacon, and yes there are some who are Pastors/deacons, however, this is not supported by Paul or the scriptures.
Does God allow it?........yeah, but this is not the same as him condoning it or approving it....tho he might bless it. (tho I really cant answer that one.)


Would i go to hear a woman preach?.... Sure, i would go hear Joyce Meyers if she came to Israel, however, Joyce does not claim to be a pastor., and this is because she understands God's perspective.
Would i go to hear the women pastors who i mentioned that pastor my 2 best friends?.... Sure i would..
However, I would have a problem with joining their church.
And if ither of the those women asked me my opinion about their position, i would just tell them what Paul says...
I would say........."are you a male by birth husband of one wife"?..........well, until you are, next subject please......"
However, i would not try to talk them out of their situation.
And the reason is......i think that (if they are really born again and have their NT doctrine in order) they are doing a good work, even if the work they are doing is not completely in alignment with Paul.
After all, Jesus himself said that if someone is not against us they are for us, and certainly a woman pastor who has given her life to the Lord is not against him.
Maybe she is out of >order, but at least she is on the right side.





K
I grew up having a woman as a co-pastor with her husband and I never saw anything wrong with it. If anything, I am grateful because they both were excellent teachers...Rhema Graduates from Kenneth E.Hagin Bible School.