Does the bible prohibit a woman from being a "pastor"?

neophyte said:

Winnetou, you are half-correct, Junias was a female , but not an apostle . Junias was well known among the apostles as a very devout Christian , but not an apostle.

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Johannes Crysostomos (German writing) wa an ancient Bishop of the RCC, and HE said, that she was an APOSTLE!
And this was a church believing until the 13th century.

According to the bible I would say, No. I believe the bible makes it quite clear that as Christians we are all equal members in the body of Christ. Being in Christ, Christ becomes our new identity.

It is the "way of the world" to be identified by sex, race or class. Shamefully, just as these are some of the very things that divide the world today and bring about wars, these are also, equally some of the very things that bring about division in the church and the body of Christ.

As for the Christian, who's mind has been renewed according to the scripture, our perspective of identity should differ from that, of this world.

26 For you are ALL sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:26-28 (NKJV)

<neither Jew nor Greek> =difference of race/culture
<neither slave nor free> =difference of class/standard of life
<neither male nor female> =difference in sex/gender

I believe this verse couldn't be any clearer. For those of us who are in Christ. There no longer lies between ANY OF US any difference or dividing wall in regards to sex, race, or class. Our identity now is in CHRIST ALONE!

We are all knit together. We are all the hands and feet that move upon this earth as the body of Christ...each called to minister to a lost and dying world...according to the call and purpose of God on our lives... not our sex.

Drawing lots to determine who is the next in line is gambling, certainly not God. And our Lords Church is built upon revelation, and Jesus is the corner stone. There is no apostolic succession, its not even biblical.

In all His Love

Hello Kidron,

Really?
Well, i wouldn't place my bet on it.

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Up until Luther (who was later) the Roman Church was closer to the scriptural Christianity that those of us with a reliable BIble know it today. There is no question that Junia was female apostle, just as there are female apostles today: that is, women whom God has called to a certain task and sent them out with His full blessing upon their lives.

Would any of you Sola Scriptura followers show me where Jesus gave His power and authority to any female apostle in this verse of [ Luke 10: 16 ] also show me where Jesus gave this same authority and power to any future church besides that Church which Jesus founded on His Apostles. Only one Church exists today and that is only any Church that can trace it's lineage back to the apostles of Jesus- " Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you " [ Matthew 28: 20 ] "As the Father has sent me, I also send you " [ John 20:21 ] Unity of His "One" Apostolic Church [ John 17: 20-21 ]

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Hi neophyte,

I noticed that you deny that the Holy Spirit fell on the women amongst the 120 'disciples' on the day of Pentecost. No doubt this is because the New Jerusalem Bible's footnote directs you to disbelieve Luke's account so that it agrees with Roman Catholic doctrine. You would rather take the word of men who did not even live in the same century, over a brother in Christ who was in a face-to-face relationship with those disciples of whom he wrote?

That's up to you. I believe Luke.

As far as 'authority' goes, there is a difference between 'power' and 'authority', which you will pick up by looking into the Greek for these English words when they appear in the text.

In general though, authority is a sign that a higher authority (God) has delegated someone to a task which He wants them to do. Intrinsically, it assumes that the person God is sending, has been obedient to God in the past, such that He trusts them to carry out His bidding again, and that the person obeying God will make whatever sacrifice is necessary to uphold His name and reputation.

We tend to think of 'authority' being about having power over others, and this is true regarding the authority of a Christian over evil spirits, but in the New Testament, the receiving of authority from God means becoming His servant, servant to his people, and servant to others in general. It is not a high place, but a low place - a place of washing dirty feet.

dragonfly, No one else besides the apostles received the Tongues of Fire on Pentecost. Yes the 120 were in the same house, but only the apostles were in the upper chamber/room and only they received the Holy Spirit. Read [ Acts 2: 1-4 ] + ] only those apostles were speaking as if drunk [ speaking in tongues ] and criticized by the other 120.Read [ Acts 2: 38 ]

Hi neophyte,

There is no reason to suppose they were not in the same room. The New Jerusalem Bible doesn't seek to change that. It merely seeks to direct the reader away from the plain truth of the translation, to those listed in Acts 1:13. I believe what the apostle wrote. Luke knew those whom you have been taught were the only ones to receive baptism in the Holy Spirit. But what say the scriptures?


Acts 1
13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room,
where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas,
Bartholomew, and Matthew, James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas [the brother] of James.

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication,
with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said,
(the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) ...'


Acts 2
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


There is no reason to change the 'all' at the beginning of v 4, to the eleven (v 13) by the end of the same sentence.

Luke lists at least fifteen different language groups, later in the chapter.

dragonfly, the following was written by a Protestant, not sure of what denomination, but certainly not a Catholic---by Mike Derewianka

Did women speak on the day of Pentecost?
The Bible gives us enough information to have a good idea of who spoke in tongues at Pentecost.
The Facts:

1. The speakers were either the 12 apostles or the 120 disciples (Acts 1:15, 26; Acts 2:1).
2. The group was small enough so that they could all sit in a house (Acts 2:2)
3. The eyewitnesses thought that all who spoke in tongues were Galileans. (Acts 2:7)
4. Some of the eyewitnesses were Judeans, who we would expect to know the difference between a Judean and a Galilean. (Acts 2:9)
5. Jesus told the apostles to wait for the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:2-5) Then two angels spoke to the apostles and called them “men of Galilee”. (Acts 2:11)
6. Joseph of Arimathea and Mary, Martha, and Lazarus of Bethany were not Galileans, but were close to Jesus in His last days.
7. The twelve apostles are specifically mentioned as being in the house at Pentecost, no one else is. (Acts 2:14)
8. When Peter explains the tongues speaking, he is described as “standing up with the eleven” and says “these are not drunk, as you suppose”. (Acts 2:14-15)

The Conclusion

The facts support that it was the twelve apostles who spoke in tongues, not the 120. The facts do not support the idea that women spoke in tongues in Acts 2:4 at Pentecost.
To insist that it was the 120, one would have to make a series of unreasonable claims, as below.
Unreasonable Claim #1

a. Either the eyewitnesses were wrong in thinking the speakers were all Galileans or
b. B) all of the 120 were Galileans
Comment
Since the whole point of the tongues here depends on the identity of the speakers (it was supernatural for Galileans to speak in other languages), the former, a), is unreasonable. Also, does it seem reasonable that the Holy Spirit would record that the eyewitnesses thought that all the speakers were Galileans if He did not want us reach that conclusion? It is also irresponsible to assert that none of the 120 disciples of Acts 1:15-26 were from somewhere other than Galilee. How could someone teach as truth a conclusion that is based on the claim that neither Joseph of Arimathea nor Mary, Martha, and Lazarus of Bethany nor any disciple from anywhere but Galilee was among the 120?
Improbable Claim #2

They were in a very large house where 120 people could all sit.
Comment

• This is possible, but improbable. How many houses have you seen in the modern day could seat that many? How much less so in that day?
• In Acts 2:15, when the 120 met, it does not specify where they met.
• The apostles and possibly their wives were in the upper room of Acts 2:13. There is nothing in the text that makes it clear the 120 met there.

Unreasonable Claim #3

(Acts 2:14-15) When Peter explains the tongues speaking, and he is described as “standing up with the eleven” and says “these are not drunk, as you suppose”, he is really referring to the 120 who are not mentioned, instead the eleven who are mentioned.
Comment
The Holy Spirit is a good communicator. If He wanted us to think of the 120 speaking, do you think He would have said 120 instead of eleven?
Unreasonable Claim #4 Ignore Patriarchal Culture

An important principle of Bible interpretation is to ask yourself, “What would the original audience have thought this means?”
Would the patriarchal Mid-East readers of the day have read this and understood that women spoke in public if it were not explicitly stated in the text? No.
Improbable Claim #5 Implausible to identify 120 stranges as Galileans

How likely is it that someone could see 120 strangers and conclude that they all are Galileans? Possible, but not likely. This would be a much more reasonable task with a group of 12.
Sons and daughters

Does the reference to “sons and daughters” prophesying in Acts 2:17-21 indicate that women spoke at Pentecost?
No. This passage is telling us of things that will happen during the entire church age, beginning at Pentecost and ending with the Lord’s return. Was the Spirit poured out on “all flesh” (all nations, including Gentiles) at Pentecost? Did the moon turn to blood at Pentecost? Did old men dream dreams at Pentecost? No, no, and no. Yet all these are in that same passage. The apostles spoke in tongues at Pentecost as a beginning of the fulfillment of this prophecy of Joel, which Peter quoted. It does not prove that women spoke that day any more that it proves that the Spirit came upon Gentiles (“all flesh”) that day.
15 Regions, but only 12 apostles

Acts 2:8-11 says 15 different regions heard the apostles speak in their own languages, but there were only 12 apostles. It is entirely possible that a single apostle was enabled to speak in more than one language. Paul said “I speak in tongues (foreign languages) more than you all.” (1 Cor 14:18)
A possible timeline of events at Pentecost.

• Before Pentecost (Acts chapter 1), the Galilean apostles were off by themselves (seemingly alone) when the Lord appeared to them, hence they are referred to as “men of Galilee”. (Acts 1:11)
• At the end of the same day (Acts 1:12) that the Lord ascended, they returned to the place where they were staying, rejoining their wives (and children?) and Mary, the brothers of the Lord, and possibly other disciples there.
• Some days later, 120 “names”, possibly 120 men, met together to choose a successor to Judas. There might have been women present in addition to the men, but such a decision probably would have been made by men in that culture. Adam Clarke’s Commentary comments: “It is remarkable that this (120) was the number which the Jews required to form a council in any city.” The phrase “in these days” does not require that the women mentioned in Acts 1:14 be present. On the single day of Acts 1:1-14 we see a period where the apostles (“men of Galilee”) were seemingly off by themselves, then later rejoined the women.
• On the morning of Pentecost, the apostles were worshiping by themselves in a house that had enough room for them all to sit. (Acts 2:1, 14)
• When the Holy Spirit arrived (Praise God!), Jews in the city gathered to where the apostles were speaking in tongues and heard them. Quite possibly the apostles remained in the house, because in many translations in Acts 2:14, we get the impression that Peter and the eleven were moving from a sitting to a standing position after the tongues speaking event.
• 3,000 believed and were baptized that day. Possibly not all 3,000 personally heard the tongues speaking. Some of these may have been persuaded by the testimony of those Jews who were there and told their friends and families

Hi neophyte,

It doesn't really matter whether Mike Derewianka is a Protestant if he has any other agenda than to believe what the scriptures say.

His comments about whether those speaking in tongues were Gallileans or not, because of what the text says, is totally wiped out by bringing in Mary, Martha and Lazarus - who are not mentioned in the text. Remember, the people who came to Jerusalem for Passover were from other countries. They were probably familiar with a Judaean accent, and that's why the Gallileans stood out to them. But baptism in the Spirit has nothing to do with the nationality/dialect of the people receiving the baptism, but it has to do with the Baptiser, who sees hearts that are prepared for Him.

There is nothing in the text which remotely implies that the women present did not receive baptism in the Spirit. At no time during Jesus' earthly ministry were women excluded from receiving the whole meaning of the gospel. MD's suggestion that when Peter spoke about those who appeared drunk, he was only referring to the other eleven, is very unlikely, as vast majority of the approximately 120 did appear drunk.

All that about the size of the house indicates MD has not considered the difference in construction of 'houses' in warm countries. I believe the 120 went outside where crowds were already gathered for the festival.

[quote name='dragonfly' timestamp='1342089095' post='156281']
Hi neophyte,

It doesn't really matter whether Mike Derewianka is a Protestant if he has any other agenda than to believe what the scriptures say.

His comments about whether those speaking in tongues were Gallileans or not, because of what the text says, is totally wiped out by bringing in Mary, Martha and Lazarus - who are not mentioned in the text. Remember, the people who came to Jerusalem for Passover were from other countries. They were probably familiar with a Judaean accent, and that's why the Gallileans stood out to them. But baptism in the Spirit has nothing to do with the nationality/dialect of the people receiving the baptism, but it has to do with the Baptiser, who sees hearts that are prepared for Him.

There is nothing in the text which remotely implies that the women present did not receive baptism in the Spirit. At no time during Jesus' earthly ministry were women excluded from receiving the whole meaning of the gospel. MD's suggestion that when Peter spoke about those who appeared drunk, he was only referring to the other eleven, is very unlikely, as vast majority of the approximately 120 did appear drunk.

All that about the size of the house indicates MD has not considered the difference in construction of 'houses' in warm countries. I believe the 120 went outside where crowds were already gathered for the festival.
[/quote]

dragonfly, I agree with you on this statement that you wrote :"All that about the size of the house indicates MD has not considered the difference in construction of 'houses' in warm countries. I believe the 120 went outside where crowds were already gathered for the festival. "

Eactly, that is why only the apostles, who were all up in the upper chamber/room , received the Tongues of Fire , because the HS only came to those men in the upper room.

Hi neophyte,

It's great that you see some of the points that I made, but please could you just read Luke's account, laying aside what men who were not there, think about it. Think as if you were there yourself.... It doesn't take a huge amount of room to seat 10 x 12 people, as long as there's little or no furniture. And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas [the brother] of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Where do you see the men and women splitting into two, three, or more groups, in the above verses?

dragonfly said:

Hi neophyte,

It's great that you see some of the points that I made, but please could you just read Luke's account, laying aside what men who were not there, think about it. Think as if you were there yourself.... It doesn't take a huge amount of room to seat 10 x 12 people, as long as there's little or no furniture. And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas [the brother] of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Where do you see the men and women splitting into two, three, or more groups, in the above verses?

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It is very clear that only the twelve apostles received the Tongues of Fire on them and only them. Read from Acts 2:1-47

It is very clear that only the twelve apostles received the Tongues of Fire on them and only them.

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The problem with this interpretation, (referring back to the article by MD), is that it is God's intention that everyone should be baptised in the Spirit. This is clear from other verses in the New Testament. To suggest that those who knew Jesus personally, and who obeyed His command to wait in Jerusalem (together in the upper room) until they had received 'the promise of the Father', and been 'endued with power from on high', is to alter and damage the whole gospel message.

In Luke 24, Jesus Himself expounded the scriptures to Peter and other disciples, and continued to teach them during the following weeks before His Ascension. This is one reason Peter knew that Joel had prophesied this event. In many places in the New Testament we find women being preached to and believing the message of salvation through apostles (not only the twelve, but many others). The message was: Repent and be baptised, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2)

When the Holy Spirit fell at Cornelius' house, (Acts 10:44 on), it didn't fall on only the males present, it fell on everybody. When Peter later explained what had happened, part of his defence was that what had happened to the Gentiles, was exactly what had happened to those gathered in the upper room on the day of Pentecost: the Holy Spirit had fallen on them all.

Later we find the apostle Paul writing this:

Galatians 3
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

There are no second class Christians in the Church, although there are different ministries and roles which God chooses to distribute amongst believers according to His purposes. It is God who baptises both men and women in the Holy Spirit.

We confirm this from the other verses which mention women excerising the gifts of the Spirit. If we believe the word of God is true, then it is futile to try to resist God and His purposes by diminishing the reach the gospel's promises, to fit our small mindedness.

dragonfly,
The New Testament offers several lists of the names of Christ’s apostles, all of whom were men (Matt. 10:2–3; Luke 6:13–16; Acts 1:13, 26), and records that they were specifically chosen by Christ from among his disciples. It is the responsibility of those who claim that the New Testament is at best incorrect or at worst a falsified document to prove that assertion.

Maybe you all need to do the one thing you have not done. Take it before the Lord, then you will see your foolishness. Next time you sit and ponder why God does not seem to be doing anything in this world today, why dont you ask Him how you have limited Him. You are not God, but its you who Limit Him.God is God, He will do as He pleases, but its the ack of faith in men that limits what He can do, He asked us to Pray for His will to be done, His ways are not our ways His thoughts not our thoughts, so stop doing the thinking for Him and let Him do what He needs to do.


In All His Love

And if you are a women, and you ask God why are you not using me, Just remember its you who said He cant.

Hello neophyte,

I have no idea why you are keen to dispute what the scriptures plainly say. What advantage is it to fight with God?


apostle = sent one

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...'
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them ...'

Clearly, if the disciples do what Jesus just commanded them before He ascended, they will have to teach others to go.


Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said,
Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Romans 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners,
who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.


1 Corinthians 12:12, 13 For as the body is one, and hath many members,
and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles,
whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

27Now you all are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers,
after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

dragonfly said:

Hello neophyte,

I have no idea why you are keen to dispute what the scriptures plainly say. What advantage is it to fight with God?


apostle = sent one

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...'
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them ...'

Clearly, if the disciples do what Jesus just commanded them before He ascended, they will have to teach others to go.


Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said,
Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Romans 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners,
who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.


1 Corinthians 12:12, 13 For as the body is one, and hath many members,
and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles,
whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

27Now you all are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers,
after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

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Junia is a womans name, but many ancient versions including an ancient Greek manuscript read the name as a man's name , Junias.
That body mentioned ,yes , is one and that is : "All members of the One True [ Catholic] Apostolic Church", for this was the only church in existance back when that was penned. Your non - apostolic churches started around the sixteenth century. None of the above verses that you have submitted pertain [ non-applicable] to any Protestant or any other personal version of a Christian belief way of worshipping.
No where in the bible is there a woman who was an apostle. Sorry, but it's not my choice, the choice was entirely Christ's, as per bible.

If someone can show me where in the bible Jesus said women couldnt be pastors please show me where. If not stop assuming things.