Lawless Ones subverting the truth in Christ.

Axehead · Sep 24, 2012

justaname said:
Axehead,

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

You speak of those who were/are never saved by effectual grace through true belief. I speak of those God foreknew and predestined for His purpose. In the likes of these salvation is as guaranteed as the good deposit that is in them. In these faith is life and to live is to have faith. To live is to Christ. To Christ is to love God and His creation but not this world.

Obviously, we know that everyone that has ever left our fellowship, we cannot say they are lost.

And, God knows them that are His and we don't. We do know that everyone that names the name of Christ should depart from sin, and if they don't they are on thin ice at best.

2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

God warns us through the scriptures so that we are assured who we are in Him, we have not fallen away. The falling back in the specific Hebrews passage you cite gives warning to not go (draw) back to Judaism and the Law.

Well, you are certainly free to hold that opinion, but I think the Great Falling Away includes more than Jews going back to Judaism. Why would Gentiles be excluded from falling from grace? The Jews are not more special than the Gentiles and besides, in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile so it refers to anyone that draws back into unbelief.

Many warnings are of losing faith. Faith is the basis of our salvation and God's warnings help the faithful, strengthening and convicting them. Those who are not of God will ultimately fail in heeding to the warnings given.

But we don't know who these will be. We are to have patience and love and not consign anyone to Hell.

Those saved are saved in a process of salvation that results in glorification, all glory be to Jesus Christ for His name sake. Not that we are glorified in these bodies, but we are made anew in the twinkling of an eye, be it we must be born again before we can be counted as sons of God.

1 Cor 6

12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
13 Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body.
14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power.

Well, like I said you are free to hold to your opinion, but it just seems that you are ignoring a lot of other words of Jesus.

Axehead

justaname · Sep 24, 2012

First to the Hebrews passage.
The author was a Christian from a Jewish background writing to Christians primarily from a Jewish background that underwent suffering:
Hebrews 10

32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,

33 partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.

34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.

The exhortation is to not throw away their confidence.

35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.

What is this confidence >>>>>>?
Hebrews 3:6
6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

1 Peter 3:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

If God is for us, who can be against us?

us2are1 · Sep 26, 2012

mark s said:
Trying to keep the Law cannot make you righteous. Grace is the only answer given in Scripture to make you righteous, both in standing and in behavior.

You do constantly misrepresent those who present God's grace as being lawless, failing to acknowledge that being personally ruled by Christ Himself is as far above trying to be perfected by works of Law as the heavens are higher than the earth.

Grace clears the way so that you can be righteous by following Christ.

Grace is not a cloak for sin.

rand · Sep 26, 2012

Hi Son-of-Man, What does it mean to you to follow Christ? Imitate Christ? Do you do that? Did Jesus live a life of divinity or did He live as a man. If it was divinity, then we have no hope of imitating Him, if as a man, then we should be able to do everything He did. Do you do that?

Also, grace is not a cloak for sin. True, I believe this will all my heart. I know there is the teaching of the Nicholations (Rev 2:15) that believes this, I do not.

Three people: Jesus, Simon, and the sinner woman.

Jesus= grace, truth, forgiveness, no condemnation

Simon= under the law, judgmental, self-righteous, no revelation of grace, thinks he has been forgiven little

Woman= knows she has received grace (a lot)

Which one of these (besides Jesus) is more likely to continue to sin?

Remember: where are those that condemn you? no one my lord. Neither do I condemn you, now go and sin no more.

Jesus gave her the power to stop sinning, then told her to go and sin no more. That power to stop sinning is that there is no condemnation. The law is the ministry of death and condemnation. We are not under the law, and if sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) and we are not under the law, (Romans 5:13) Then how can we break that law? Yes, there is still a law, but if we walk acording to the spirit, we are not under the law (Gal 5:18), and if we are not under the law (and walk according to the spirit) we will not fullfill our lust. Under the law, we WILL fulfill our lust--but we sure won't let anyone know about it. The law voids your faith, and where there is no law, there is no transgression (Romans 4:14-15). If we are dead to the law and to sin, how can we live any longer there in? How can we break a law that we don't have? We are not in that sin realm anymore.

Don't be the prodigal son's brother, be the prodigal son. Sin is not imputed to us (like David said, 'blessed is the man whos sin is not imputed unto him' that is us who are under grace). Even the Prodigal son's Father told the brother, 'why are you so upset, everything I have is yours, stop persecuting your brother and rejoyce with me.

If you are saved, and even if you are trying to mix the law with grace, you are still under grace and God is not angry with you and He is not holding you accountable to the law even if you think you're doing a fine job (you're not) , but you will never know the blessings He has for you because grace comes by faith, and the law kills that faith.

IF we are justified by His blood (only) then we will not see God's wrath (Romans 5:9)

Axehead · Sep 26, 2012

God's desire is to express His own character. Only God can express who He is. Man is not capable of creating the character of God. He should not try to imitate what he cannot generate. Man should not try to copy what he cannot manufacture. The Character of God is exclusive only to God. Many think that the objective of the Christian life is to imitate Christ. No one can imitate His actions, let alone His thoughts, so what is the Christian life? How is Christ's life (character, thoughts) reproduced in us?

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.(Isa. 42:8; 48:11).

But, Isaiah does say that we “were created for His glory” (Isa. 43:7); so the only way for God to be glorified is when He is allowed to express Himself, His character within His creation. Godliness, Holiness and Righteousness is God expressing His character in man. Man is not capable in the least of producing godly character. Man is called to yield (allow) to God and bring his will into harmony with God's will so that "the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us". God chose for His Life (Holy Spirit) to dwell in man and for man to yield to that life (to Him).

2Co_4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Whose life did Paul say he was living by, now?

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

We are to be receptive to the Spirit of God, yielding and surrendering ourselves to His will and purposes in our lives. This is how the character of God will be seen in us and this is how the Glory of God will abide amongst men.

"that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. " (Isa 61:3)

Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. (Isa 60:21)

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Axehead

us2are1 · Sep 27, 2012

rand said:
Hi Son-of-Man, What does it mean to you to follow Christ? Imitate Christ? Do you do that? Did Jesus live a life of divinity or did He live as a man. If it was divinity, then we have no hope of imitating Him, if as a man, then we should be able to do everything He did. Do you do that?

Also, grace is not a cloak for sin. True, I believe this will all my heart. I know there is the teaching of the Nicholations (Rev 2:15) that believes this, I do not.

Three people: Jesus, Simon, and the sinner woman.

Jesus= grace, truth, forgiveness, no condemnation

Simon= under the law, judgmental, self-righteous, no revelation of grace, thinks he has been forgiven little

Woman= knows she has received grace (a lot)

Which one of these (besides Jesus) is more likely to continue to sin?

Remember: where are those that condemn you? no one my lord. Neither do I condemn you, now go and sin no more.

Jesus gave her the power to stop sinning, then told her to go and sin no more. That power to stop sinning is that there is no condemnation. The law is the ministry of death and condemnation. We are not under the law, and if sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) and we are not under the law, (Romans 5:13) Then how can we break that law? Yes, there is still a law, but if we walk acording to the spirit, we are not under the law (Gal 5:18), and if we are not under the law (and walk according to the spirit) we will not fullfill our lust. Under the law, we WILL fulfill our lust--but we sure won't let anyone know about it. The law voids your faith, and where there is no law, there is no transgression (Romans 4:14-15). If we are dead to the law and to sin, how can we live any longer there in? How can we break a law that we don't have? We are not in that sin realm anymore.

Don't be the prodigal son's brother, be the prodigal son. Sin is not imputed to us (like David said, 'blessed is the man whos sin is not imputed unto him' that is us who are under grace). Even the Prodigal son's Father told the brother, 'why are you so upset, everything I have is yours, stop persecuting your brother and rejoyce with me.

If you are saved, and even if you are trying to mix the law with grace, you are still under grace and God is not angry with you and He is not holding you accountable to the law even if you think you're doing a fine job (you're not) , but you will never know the blessings He has for you because grace comes by faith, and the law kills that faith.

IF we are justified by His blood (only) then we will not see God's wrath (Romans 5:9)

If she would have continued sinning then once again she would have been tangled in condemnation. Christ cleansed her of all sin and she chose to stay clear of it and not sin again by following Christ.
Christ is indeed our example.
Ask God for His spirit and start imitating Him as dear children.
Push yourself away from the table of the beast (your nation) fast and pray in the wilderness and God will meet you there.
Don't set yourself up for failure by preparing your way back to the trough before you go.
Go with the knowledge that God will not leave you or forsake you.
God is Spirit He is always there.
He is always powerful.
He is always trustworthy even though we are not.
You will see Gods wrath even if it does not harm you. Everyone who is not a martyr will see Gods wrath. The martyrs will be brought back up in the first Resurrection to finish His wrath on the devil and His messengers.

1 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."
3 Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler And from the perilous pestilence.
4 He shall cover you with His feathers, And under His wings you shall take refuge; His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
5 You shall not be afraid of the terror by night, Nor of the arrow that flies by day,
6 Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness, Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side, And ten thousand at your right hand; But it shall not come near you.
8 Only with your eyes shall you look, And see the reward of the wicked.

dragonfly · Sep 27, 2012

Hi rand,

When you say

We are not in that sin realm any more.

I completely agree with you.

And so because of Christ's having come and dealt with sin on our behalf, Romans 5:13 is out of context completely, in the way you have used it (and Romans 4:15 would be too), because both of these verses refer to the era when death reigned; whereas now, Christ has abolished death for us, and He reigns in life, and we with Him. That is, we reign over sin and death in our lives, through His faith (Gal 2:20).

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Hi Son of Man,

You will see Gods wrath even if it does not harm you. Everyone who is not a martyr will see Gods wrath. The martyrs will be brought back up in the first Resurrection to finish His wrath on the devil and His messengers.

1 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."
3 Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler And from the perilous pestilence.
4 He shall cover you with His feathers, And under His wings you shall take refuge; His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
5 You shall not be afraid of the terror by night, Nor of the arrow that flies by day,
6 Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness, Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side, And ten thousand at your right hand; But it shall not come near you.
8 Only with your eyes shall you look, And see the reward of the wicked.

This is a powerful use of Psalm 91 within the context you've given it, and it blesses me.

But, what is your scriptural justification for the sentence I underlined, please?

justaname · Sep 27, 2012

It is not the Law of Moses we are under nor are we to obey it. We have a better covenant, a different high priest and a different law.

11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

Strat · Sep 27, 2012

All this talk of perfect people yet i have never met one.

us2are1 · Sep 27, 2012

justaname said:
It is not the Law of Moses we are under nor are we to obey it. We have a better covenant, a different high priest and a different law.

11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?
12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

According to your gospel Christ just led this young man astray. So someones understanding is tainted.

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,'
19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "
20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Strat said:
All this talk of perfect people yet i have never met one.

You don't know Christ? Or you don't believe what He taught?

justaname · Sep 27, 2012

Son of Man said:
[/size][/font]

According to your gospel Christ just led this young man astray. So someones understanding is tainted.

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,'
19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "
20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

You don't know Christ? Or you don't believe what He taught?

When the Christ was still present the new covenant was not in effect.

Hebrews 9:16

16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.

17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

Besides the commandments Jesus was speaking of is the same as my signature. I guess I could ask you, do you keep all the dietary laws, do you sacrifice or have a priest sacrifice at the temple? Do you wear clothes of different threads?

Hebrews 8:13

13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

I understand a common misconception to be that the commandments are equivalent to the Law.
The great Shema is on what the Law and prophets depend. Matthew 22:40

rand · Sep 27, 2012

Christ wasn't teaching the 10 Commandments. Jesus knew this man was neck-deep in the law and was proud of how well he was keeping the law. That is why Jesus listed 6 or 7 of the commandments but left out the 1st and most important commandment which is the one the guy had a problem with. No matter how good you think you are at keeping the commandments, Jesus will always be able to say, ' there is still one thing you lack.' In Revelation 3:2 Jesus was talking to a church that was known for it's works and had a name for itself based on those works, but Jesus said 'I have not found your works perfect.' Our works will never be found perfect by Christ. Never. Our faith will. The righteousness of God is in Christ, and that will always be found perfect because it is perfect. It has absolutely nothing to do with us except that it was given to us as a free gift. That's it. It's not our works, it's not our ability to keep the law, it's all Jesus and nothing more. the more you mix in the law with the gospel of grace, the more you will look at yourself and the less you will look at Christ.

Condemnation comes from being under the law, in Christ there is NO CONDEMNATION. None. There is plenty of condemnation from Christians but that is because they are keeping themselves under the law and walking more in the flesh than they are walking in the spirit. They walk more by sight in this world than they walk in faith.

Hi Dragonfly,
Please show me how I took the scriptures out of context. I really want to know. It says we are not under the law. and when we are not under the law, we are not responsible for the law. When we do one of things the law says we should not do, it is not counted against us because it is not our law. He has given us a new command--to love and if we do that, we keep all the law anyway.

When there is no law, there is no breaking of the law. Is that not what it says? Even if sin is in the world, it is not counted against the sinner because there is no law. Why would you put yourself back under the law, knowing you can't keep the law perfectly (and there is no such thing as good enough), because then you are responsible for all of the sin you know you are commiting and the sin you don't even reailize you're committing. Jesus died to take all that shakey ground away and put you on the solid rock.

YOu can keep the law in your doctrine if you like, but I'm here to tell you it's so much better in grace, God is so awesome.

Let me ask you a question. Why would you keep yourself from sinning? In other words, why would you not commint a sin on purpose? I'm trying to figure out what is going on in your head as you resist? Be as honest as possible.

us2are1 · Sep 27, 2012

justaname said:
When the Christ was still present the new covenant was not in effect.

Hebrews 9:16

16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

Besides the commandments Jesus was speaking of is the same as my signature. I guess I could ask you, do you keep all the dietary laws, do you sacrifice or have a priest sacrifice at the temple? Do you wear clothes of different threads?

Hebrews 8:13

13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

I understand a common misconception to be that the commandments are equivalent to the Law.
The great Shema is on what the Law and prophets depend. Matthew 22:40

So the Lord is not the same yesterday today and tomorrow? You are sadly mistaken. The new covenant is the covenant of perfection that Christ told the young man about. It is so far above the law because it fulfills the law. So now all you have to do to qualify is what Christ told the young man in the scripture. ""go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

rand said:
Condemnation comes from being under the law, in Christ there is NO CONDEMNATION. None.

You have to be in Christ before there is no condemnation. "Walking (that is right doing His will) according to the spirit of God."

Not living in the flesh giving mouth service deceiving yourselves.

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Mouth service avails nothing.

justaname · Sep 27, 2012

Son of Man said:
So the Lord is not the same yesterday today and tomorrow? You are sadly mistaken. The new covenant is the covenant of perfection that Christ told the young man about. It is so far above the law because it fulfills the law. So now all you have to do to qualify is what Christ told the young man in the scripture. ""go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

You have to be in Christ before there is no condemnation. "Walking (that is right doing His will) according to the spirit of God."

Not living in the flesh giving mouth service deceiving yourselves.

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Mouth service avails nothing.

The man Jesus spoke to was under the Law of Moses also. The man who was told to sell everything and give to the poor loved money more than God, and Jesus, being God knew that. God does not change but His revelation does. Some covenants are conditional, some are not.

A New Covenant

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

8 For finding fault with them, He says,

[indent=1.35]“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, [/indent]
[indent=1.35]When I will effect a new covenant [/indent]
[indent=1.35]With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; [/indent]
[indent=1.35]9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers [/indent]
[indent=1.35]On the day when I took them by the hand [/indent]
[indent=1.35]To lead them out of the land of Egypt; [/indent]
[indent=1.35]For they did not continue in My covenant, [/indent]
[indent=1.35]And I did not care for them, says the Lord. [/indent]
[indent=1.35]10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel [/indent]
[indent=1.35]After those days, says the Lord: [/indent]
[indent=1.35]I will put My laws into their minds, [/indent]
[indent=1.35]And I will write them on their hearts. [/indent]
[indent=1.35]And I will be their God, [/indent]
[indent=1.35]And they shall be My people. [/indent]
[indent=1.35]11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, [/indent]
[indent=1.35]And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ [/indent]
[indent=1.35]For all will know Me, [/indent]
[indent=1.35]From the least to the greatest of them. [/indent]
[indent=1.35]12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities, [/indent]
[indent=1.35]And I will remember their sins no more.” [/indent]

We, Christians, are under a new covenant. Aaron is not our high priest, rather Jesus Christ. The Law was fulfilled that is why we look to our rest. We await to see all things in subjection to Him, even though to Him all things are in subjection. We are outside the camp awaiting our heavenly city.

Since when did you become the one to set what qualifies someone to enter His rest?

us2are1 · Sep 28, 2012

justaname said:
The man Jesus spoke to was under the Law of Moses also. The man who was told to sell everything and give to the poor loved money more than God, and Jesus, being God knew that. God does not change but His revelation does. Some covenants are conditional, some are not.

A New Covenant

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, He says,
35]“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
35]When I will effect a new covenant
35]With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
35]9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
35]On the day when I took them by the hand
35]To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
35]For they did not continue in My covenant,
35]And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
35]10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
35]After those days, says the Lord:
35]I will put My laws into their minds,
35]And I will write them on their hearts.
35]And I will be their God,
35]And they shall be My people.
35]11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
35]And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
35]For all will know Me,
35]From the least to the greatest of them.
35]12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
35]And I will remember their sins no more.”

We, Christians, are under a new covenant. Aaron is not our high priest, rather Jesus Christ. The Law was fulfilled that is why we look to our rest. We await to see all things in subjection to Him, even though to Him all things are in subjection. We are outside the camp awaiting our heavenly city.

Since when did you become the one to set what qualifies someone to enter His rest?

Like I said all you have to do now to qualify is leave everything and follow Christ.

33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.
38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

There you go. There is only one new covenant. Christ wrote it.

justaname · Sep 28, 2012

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

This says the same thing you just posted. :lol:

lawrance · Sep 28, 2012

rand said:
So now you don't believe just in Christ? Only Christ is worthy and you too? Is that what you're saying? Maybe I misunderstand your opening sentence. The law's true postiion is to lead us to Christ (Gal 3:24). The law came by Moses and grace and truth came by Jesus. The Law is one covenant and grace is the new and better covenant. You can never live up to them, you can make youself think you can, but you can't. The good news is that you don't even have to try because you are dead to the law and no longer responible for it or to it. Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) and sin is not taken into account when there is no law (Romans 5:13) and sin apart from the law is dead (Romans 7:7) Galatians 3:10 says all who rely on observing the law are under a curse. Take a look at Deut chpter 28 and see if you have any of the curses of the law in you're life. I don't.

I am not lowering the law. The law is perfect, holy, and good. That's why it doesn't work for us, because we are not perfect, holy or good. That's why God nailed it to the cross, disarming the enemy of his power over us. This is what it means to rightly divide the word of truth between Old covenant teaching and new covenant teaching. This is the old wine skin and new wine, this is cold or hot and mixing the two you get lukewarm. This is the narrow gate that so few people (even Christians) find.

at the top of the mount of transfiguration, Jesus took Peter (stone = tablets= law), James (replace), and John (grace) (the law has been replaced by grace) and when moses showed up Peter wanted to build a shelter for Jesus and Moses and Elijah, sudenly they disappeared and only Jesus was left and then God said, 'this is my son, listen to Him.' Moses represents the law, and Elijah represents the prophets. Peter was trying to place all three on the same level, but the Father would have none of that.

I really think you ought to pray about this and ask Him to show you the truth that He died to give you. The bigest obstacle to finding the truth is to think you already have it.

The good news is that God is not mad at you, He's not waitin up there to punish you when you mess up. He loves you more than you can even know. And He wants you to have that easy and light life that Jesus said you can have in Him.

I used to think like you do--like most Christians do, but now I am more alive than I've ever been even after almost 40 years as a Christian. I've got pastors in my family (with doctorates) and they don't buy this grace stuff either, but Grace taught me to see myself as God sees me, and I know I am a Child of the most High God. I am Royalty. It's true, you will act like who you think you are. That's why we should renew our mind.

The Law is Gods Law. that is a foundation. and it does not matter if i think i can or can't at all but the fact is it is a foundation given by God and Jesus puts it in to perspective and Jesus makes the Law come alive in the Spirit. Jesus never tossed the Law away.
A Jew may think Jesus has tossed the Law away, and this is why they think he is not the one ! and they will not come to Jesus and become Christians because of it. they think christians are just stupid foolish idiots beyond belief and are angered by such simple minded trash that some christians ponce about with so they just role there eyes shaking there head and have no interest in conversing with us. because they think we are way off track.
Grace is above the Law, that's true.
The Law does work for us, under Grace ( under Grace you understand ?) and the enemy is still there against us every day in every way. and the OT is a blueprint, so it's not thrown away at all and we have made the transition to new skins because we are in Christ Jesus.

rand · Sep 28, 2012

I disagree, Mr. The law is not the foundation--Jesus is the foundation, He's the rock, He's the fortress, He's the strong tower. And the OT is there to reveal Jesus and Jesus is come to reveal the Father. Jesus did not throw away the Law, He fulfilled it. Then God nailed it (the 10 Commandments) to the cross disarming the enemy. When we re-introduce the law into grace we are giving back the enemy his arms against us. That's just what the enemy wants us to do.

Hi son of man,

What does it mean to you to be "in Christ"? I am in Christ because I follow (imitate) Him, because I believe in Him, and because He has forgiven all my sins and He washes me clean. Are you sugesting that being in Christ is by your works? You can do nothing apart from Him. Your righteousness by your works are like filthy rags to Him. If we walk in the light as He is in the light then He cleanses us from all unrighteousness. How can walking in the light be the same as not sinning? What is He cleansing us from, then?

I like to think of it this way: If we walk in the knowledge of the truth of Grace as He is, then He cleanses us from all our unrighteousness.

I hope that hleps.

justaname · Sep 28, 2012

MR ROSENBERGER said:
The Law is Gods Law. that is a foundation. and it does not matter if i think i can or can't at all but the fact is it is a foundation given by God and Jesus puts it in to perspective and Jesus makes the Law come alive in the Spirit. Jesus never tossed the Law away.
A Jew may think Jesus has tossed the Law away, and this is why they think he is not the one ! and they will not come to Jesus and become Christians because of it. they think christians are just stupid foolish idiots beyond belief and are angered by such simple minded trash that some christians ponce about with so they just role there eyes shaking there head and have no interest in conversing with us. because they think we are way off track.
Grace is above the Law, that's true.
The Law does work for us, under Grace ( under Grace you understand ?) and the enemy is still there against us every day in every way. and the OT is a blueprint, so it's not thrown away at all and we have made the transition to new skins because we are in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:19

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,

20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,

22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

epostle1 · Sep 29, 2012

Let's compare the Mosaic law with the weightier matters of the law (which rests in the crucible of the law)

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, *justice*, *mercy*, and *faith*: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Galatians 6:2 Bear you one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

The question is, how do we exercise *justice*, *mercy*, and *faith* by bearing on anothers burdens? What does "bearing one anthers burdens" mean to you?

Lawless Ones subverting the truth in Christ.

New Member

Disciple of Jesus Christ

Son Of Man

New Member

New Member

Son Of Man

Well-Known Member

Disciple of Jesus Christ

Active Member

Son Of Man

Disciple of Jesus Christ

New Member

Son Of Man

Disciple of Jesus Christ

Son Of Man

Disciple of Jesus Christ

New Member

New Member

Disciple of Jesus Christ

Well-Known Member

Similar threads