Lawless Ones subverting the truth in Christ.

Paul said, "Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: (Col 3:2-3, 5-10).

The wrath of God comes against the deeds of the flesh.
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

That is why Paul is telling us to "put off" these things. Why do you think he is telling us all these works of the flesh to stay away from and then saying "for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh...?"

When you commit any act of the flesh such as is named above and you defraud your neighbor (which is not loving them), it is sin.
When this happens the hedge of protection will come down in your life and the powers of darkness will move in to attack you. This is a judgment and chastisement of God. He is allowing this to happen because His grace will not be complicit (or an accomplice) in your sin.

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

But when you love your neighbor, you are fulfilling the law and you are protected. The hedge (protection and blessing) of God are up in your life.


James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

James 2:9-10 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.(and the hedge of God's protection is removed).


James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Since the law commands us to love our neighbor, every work of the flesh, every act of selfishness will lower the hedge in your life and open you up to attacks from the powers of darkness.


Luke 6:36-38 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

God has lowered the hedge of protection against all those who do not overcome the flesh and bear the fruit of love to those around them. And you can see the powers of darkness today consuming and destroying people. There is no protection or deliverance for those who do not refuse to walk in the flesh and walk in covenant with the Lord Jesus Christ and be conformed to His image...perfected in love. Our hearts will either love our flesh and the nature of Satan or our hearts will love the Lord. This is how we will know them by their fruits.

Mat 7:17-20 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

The Church has failed to fulfill God's Law today (Love the Lord and Love your neighbor) and because of that the hedge of protection is down and the powers of darkness are destroying people. The powers of darkness build "strongholds" and "fortressess" in people's lives who walk in rebellion to God's laws. Only those who are fulfilling the law are protected by God.


Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

But if we break the law by defrauding our neighbor which is hating them and we break the law by not loving God, we open ourselves up to attacks from the enemy. All of God's commandments tell us that we must walk in love or else receive judgment. This has never changed. The law and its judgement still stand against all the works of the flesh which rise up in rebellion to God. A law is not a law without a penalty and the blessings of the law are still here today and so are the curses.

Now, do you understand what I am saying? The Law is fulfilled in two commands. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. But if, you engage in the works of the flesh and defraud your neighbor, you are now breaking the law of God, which tells you to love your neighbor.


Deu 28:45-48 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee: And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever. Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things; Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

The Church has lost the fear of God today, because they say that GRACE means we will no longer be held accountable for anything. We have lost the fear of God because we don't believe in God's righteous judgment upon sin anymore. We think that God has a different bucket for our sins than He does for the non-believer. So, that it would be like telling the non-believer, "hey, if you don't want any more trouble, come to Jesus and then if you sin, it's not a problem because you have Jesus, now!"

Isa 3:11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.

It is way past time to wake up, but wake up we must.


Axehead

rand said:

Moses and the Jews were under the law. There is a difference between the old and new covenant. That's what I've been trying toexplain. It is possible to mix the two that's what Paul was getting onto the Galians for. That's what it means to mix hot and cold (you get lukewarm), and that's why we are told to learn to seperate the truths of the old and the truths of the new covenants. By your last reply, you are still mixing them by explaining away a new covenate concept with something said under the old covenant.

and no, God did not get it wrong, but He never wanted to give the law, that's not where His heart was. Did you know that no one died in the wilderness until the law came? Did you know 3000 people died? Did you know 3000 people were saved when the Holy Spirit came? Did you know that Moses' firtst miracle was turning water into blood (death) and Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine (life). Law is the ministry of death and condemnation.

I'm really not writing all this for you, I'm pretty sure you will not see it. I'm writing that someone who knows the way they are believing is not working and that they might come to the truth.

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God never wanted to give the Law ?? you are rejecting Holy Moses ?
A true Christian does not mix the two as he knows how it works. it's over the Law, not mixed.
Is Satan at war with us ? has he ran away ?
Or is Satan in us, as in the stain of Original Sin, are we not on his side, but for the coming into Christ and we can see the truth as Jesus is our salvation.
Old mate Satan is just a pathetic robber, liar, cheat and a master of deception, he is our own worse enemy with in us.
Satan had a go at Christ to, but poor Satan was just cast aside as he had no hold on Christ. Poor Satan had no choice but to go away, as his power was defeated in Christ.
Jesus has given us the tools to deal with this Joker. but we have to use them.

I have an old friend that i went to Bible study with years ago and he believes (demands) in once saved always saved doctrine. and he will just give in to Satan's temptations and he is just so possessed by evil that all his friends will not go see him anymore and will runaway from him. one was filling his truck with fuel and drove off with the hose still in the tank, it busted off and diesel went everywhere and peter kept on driving off as he did not want to see him at all.

I thought that in Jesus, he strengthens us, not weakens us.

Remember how the Jews they were dragged down by the workings of Satan and if they were strong they seen Jesus as Christ and only some did, as the weak did not.( they were a true Israelite that came to Christ Jesus )

The major question to be answered in regards to the relationship of the Christian to the Old Covenant and Mosaic Law is: "What obligation does the Christian have to obey the Old Covenant and/or Mosaic Law?" The position that will be argued in these notes is that the Christian is under no obligation to obey the Old Covenant or Mosaic Law. The Christian has been set free from the bondage of the Law and is under obligation to the New Covenant and the teachings of Jesus Christ as stated in the New Testament. The Christian is not antinomian (opposed to the Law): "For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope" (Rom. 15:4). The Law, a reflection of God's spiritual standard, demonstrates to mankind the sinfulness of sin and convicts mankind of personal sin (Rom. 4:15; 5:19-21; 7:7-14; Gal. 3:19). The Law "has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith" (Gal. 3:24)." This does not mean that we are under obligation to it but affirms an important ministry of the Law in our salvation and sanctification. The unbeliever is under obligation to obey the whole Law, which is impossible to fulfill, therefore he is forced upon the mercy of God to trust God to save him from his sin (2 Cor. 3:4-18).
I do not believe that the Bible teaches that we can divide the Old Covenant and Mosaic Law into various segments (moral, civil, ceremonial, cultic, cultural, etc.) which must or must not be obeyed today on the basis of their classification. The New Testament presents the Law as a single and indivisible unit. I do not believe that there is any exegetical justification to divide the Old Covenant and Mosaic Law into categories in order to suggest that certain moral ones must be obeyed and other ceremonial or cultic motifs are abrogated. We are either obligated to the whole Law or set free from its absolute and complete mandate. Consider the following scriptures.

[sup]NAU [/sup]Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

[sup]NAU [/sup]Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.[sup] 14 [/sup]For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

[sup]NAU [/sup]James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Christians are not under the Old Covenant and Mosaic Law but are under the New Covenant, Grace, and the teachings of Jesus Christ. Consider the following scriptures.

[sup]NAU [/sup]Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.[sup] 15 [/sup]What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

[sup]NAU [/sup]Romans 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?[sup] 2 [/sup]For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.[sup] 3 [/sup]So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.[sup] 4 [/sup]Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.[sup] 5 [/sup]For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.[sup] 6 [/sup]But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.[sup] 7 [/sup]What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."[sup] 8 [/sup]But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.[sup] 9 [/sup]I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;[sup] 10 [/sup]and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;[sup] 11 [/sup]for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.[sup] 12 [/sup]So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

[sup]NAU [/sup]Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[sup] 2 [/sup]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.[sup] 3 [/sup]For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,[sup] 4 [/sup]so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

[sup]NAU [/sup]Galatians 2:19 "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.[sup] 20 [/sup]"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.[sup] 21 [/sup]"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

[sup]NAU [/sup]Galatians 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.[sup] 20 [/sup]Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.[sup] 21 [/sup]Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.[sup] 22 [/sup]But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.[sup] 23 [/sup]But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.[sup] 24 [/sup]Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.[sup] 25 [/sup]But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

[sup]NAU [/sup]Galatians 4:1 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything,[sup] 2 [/sup]but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.[sup] 3 [/sup]So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.[sup] 4 [/sup]But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,[sup] 5 [/sup]so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.[sup] 6 [/sup]Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"[sup] 7 [/sup]Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.[sup] 8 [/sup]However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.[sup] 9 [/sup]But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?[sup] 10 [/sup]You observe days and months and seasons and years.[sup] 11 [/sup]I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

[sup]NAU [/sup]Galatians 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.[sup] 17 [/sup]For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.[sup] 18 [/sup]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

[sup]NAU [/sup]Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,[sup] 16 [/sup]and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

[sup]NAU [/sup]Hebrews 7:11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?[sup] 12 [/sup]For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.[sup] 13 [/sup]For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.[sup] 14 [/sup]For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.[sup] 15 [/sup]And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek,[sup] 16 [/sup]who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life.[sup] 17 [/sup]For it is attested of Him, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."[sup] 18 [/sup]For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness[sup] 19 [/sup](for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.[sup] 20 [/sup]And inasmuch as it was not without an oath[sup] 21 [/sup](for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER '");[sup] 22 [/sup]so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

[sup]NAU [/sup]Hebrews 8:13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Acts 15 clearly affirmed that a Gentile did not have to become a Jew to become a Christian. There was no obligation to the Old Covenant or Mosaic Law.

[sup]NAU [/sup]Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."[sup] 2 [/sup]And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.[sup] 3 [/sup]Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.[sup] 4 [/sup]When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.[sup] 5 [/sup]But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."[sup] 6 [/sup]The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.[sup] 7 [/sup]After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.[sup] 8 [/sup]"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;[sup] 9 [/sup]and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.[sup] 10 [/sup]"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?[sup] 11 [/sup]"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."[sup] 12 [/sup]All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.[sup] 13 [/sup]After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.[sup] 14 [/sup]"Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.[sup] 15 [/sup]"With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,[sup] 16 [/sup]'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT,[sup] 17 [/sup]SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'[sup] 18 [/sup]SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.[sup] 19 [/sup]"Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,[sup] 20 [/sup]but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.[sup] 21 [/sup]"For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

The Gentiles were commanded to follow these principles in order to accommodate the Jewish communities.

[sup]NAU [/sup]Acts 21:17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.[sup] 18 [/sup]And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.[sup] 19 [/sup]After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.[sup] 20 [/sup]And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;[sup] 21 [/sup]and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.[sup] 22 [/sup]"What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.[sup] 23 [/sup]"Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;[sup] 24 [/sup]take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.[sup] 25 [/sup]"But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."[sup] 26 [/sup]Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.[sup] 27 [/sup]When the seven days were almost over, the Jews from Asia, upon seeing him in the temple, began to stir up all the crowd and laid hands on him,[sup] 28 [/sup]crying out, "Men of Israel, come to our aid! This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."

The Old Covenant and Mosaic Law have been superseded by the New Covenant and teachings of Jesus Christ. There is some continuity between the Old Covenant and New Covenant, but this continuity is not the basis for obedient obligation on the Christian today. The Old Covenant and Law has been fulfilled through the life of Christ and is being fulfilled in the Christian today by the indwelling and outworking of the spiritual living of Christ in our lives (Matt. 5:17-20; Rom. 8:1-4). Christians are New Covenant people, not Old Covenant people. The New Covenant sets a higher standard than the Mosaic Law as many commandments are elevated to a higher level. A man who looks on a woman to lust has committed adultery in his heart. A person who is angry with another can commit murder in his heart. There are several commands like this that are developed out of Mosaic laws, but that does not mean that we are under the Law. We must be careful about how we apply the Old Testament so that we do not contradict the New Testament or put people under an inappropriate burden.



I like this argument except this statement "The unbeliever is under obligation to obey the whole Law, which is impossible to fulfill, therefore he is forced upon the mercy of God to trust God to save him from his sin."
Personally I believe the unbeliever is under God and is a law to himself.

Condemnation is the outcome for unbelief.

The teaching of Jesus do not reject the Law as he said so. end of story. or he would of said the Law is useless etc, him self.

The NT abides in the OT as it is the same tree with the same roots.

The OT Law has been given life now in it's true sense as Christ shows.

If anyone wants to toss the Law away they are not of Gods people but worship there golden calf etc. as Holy Moses was of God.

One has to understand that i am not looking at this from the position of how some are mislead into believing that the Law is still in the OT understanding, no not at all ! but it is still there, but in a new position as a foundation and if you were to reject it's principles you are left with a lot of foundation missing. as i have said that the OT is a blueprint of the NT so you can not just toss away things in the Blueprint like that at all.

Why do people like to push that the position of Law is above Christ, as do you think the Law is competing with Christ or Grace, as it can't do that at all.

As DR J Mclean said that many commandments are elevated to a higher level now, setting a higher standard.

The problem with teaching people to try harder to keep the law is that causes them to look at themself instead of looking at Christ. God nailed the Ten Commandments to the Cross, and by doing so took the power that Satan had over us away. By working to keep the law we are not resting in God's Grace. It's grace that teaches us to say no to ungodlyness.

Under the law, they got blessings for repenting, under grace the blessings come first which is what causes repentance. remember Peter (was it?) when he had been out all night fishing and didn't catch anything. Jesus told him to try again, he did and caught so much they could barely bring it in. then Peter said Lord leave me, for I am a sinfull man. That's grace (blessings) then repentance. Also look at zac-----?, He was given no comands, no rules, only grace and he repented and he gave, and gave, and gave some more. This is what grace does to a person and God knows it. Anyone who doesn't believe that, doesn't understand grace.

The law causes one to be self-righteous if they think they are good at keeping the law, and it causes them to feel guilty and condemned when they are breaking the law. These feelings are not from the Holy Spirit, not if they are a Christian, these feelings are in fact the enemy's power over us. Titus 3:11 tells us that a self-condemned man is warped and sinfull. He's warped and sinful because he is self-condemned. He accepts His guilt (eventhough it's not from the Holy Spirit, but from the enemy --the accuser of the brethren) and He acts the way he believes he is. If He believed there is zero condemnation in Christ, and that He is royalty (a child of the Most High) then he would start thinking differently, then believing differently, then acting differently. This is what is meant by re-newing your mind, and repenting (change the way you think), it is also what Christ was talking about when He said first clean the inside of the cup and the outside would be clean also.

Thru Christ, the righteousness of the law is met in us. under the law, they had to work to be righteous, under grace it is a FREE GIFT! Under grace there is no condemnation, but the law is the ministry of condemnation

I think I missed it somewhere. Who is advocating "trying harder"? We are to come into His Rest and cease from our works, allowing Him to do His work in us and through us as we yield to His leading.

Good post, Episkopos.

We fulfill the righteousness of the law, through Christ.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

We cannot take any credit for anything. Our boast is only in Jesus.

Axehead

Episkopos said:

We obey the law of God by walking in Christ. You are right when you see that grace is first...and that should lead us to repentance. But this grace does not have this effect on everyone. Some will take the grace for granted as if God was become soft towards sin....that His love could afford us to become spoiled rotten by permitting us to have lawless behaviour and get away with it.

Your reasoning is good but only to the point of having come to Christ initially. After that we are to choose to surrender our lives so as to abide in Christ by the Spirit. Then the law shows that we have the righteousness of God because of the holiness power we are living in as we abide in Christ.

So grace is first that which wins us to Christ...but then it is the power to overcome sin....the sin that kept us far from God in the first place. Otherwise we should continue to sin so that more initial grace can be made manifest!!! But as Paul says...how should we rebuild again what we have died to???

So the purpose of grace is for us to become law keepers.

Law keepers through the power of Christ...

We overcome by grace through faith by abiding in Christ.

So the initial grace that leads us to repentance is like a starter motor that gets the engine to turn over! Then the ignition system kicks in and the engine itself starts being fueled by the Spirit.

Then as we keep trusting in God, the fuel supply from God continues to keep the engine running. The power of this engine keeps us from sin and empowers us to obey the law of God.

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Yes that is the whey i see it. and Grace must be fueled by the Holy Spirit.

Hi Mr.,

Exactly what do you mean, ' grace must be fueled by the Holy Spirit'?

The way I under stand grace it does not require anything from us but gives everything (good) to us as a free gift when we believe (by grace thru faith). Anything else is like Moses striking the rock (for water--blessings) the second time when the Father didn't tell him to strike it again, He told him to only speak to the rock (to receive from the rock) because the Rock had already been struck once. Aren't we all trying to strike the Rock again, and again, and again by not trusting that His first Strike was enough? It was more than the Father required to cover all of humanities sin debt. Jesus was more than enough and the Father is more than satisfied with Jesus' sacrifice. By adding anything to that, you are in effect taking away. The Father will never be satified with our works except the works of belief in the one He has sent. John 6:29 I think. Only our belief in His Son. That's it.

I can't remember the verse and it's too late to take the time and look it up, but one of Job's buddys said to him, ' So what if you had a big sin,how did that effect God? and so what if you had done such great deeds, How did that effect God?

I think Grace is much more powerful than most Christians believe it is, and I know The Father is so much better than we believe He is.. Grace IS the strength to overcome sin and by us giving grace to others, in the form of forgivness, is the way we grow in that strength; grace. But even if we fight that sin for several years before we overcome it, that sin is still covered by grace. Even if we fight it till we die, it's covered. So there is no need to feel condemned or guilty or to put guilt or condemnation on someone else for their sin. Because that Guilt is NOT from the Holy Spirit, it's from the accuser.

rand said:

Hi Mr.,

Exactly what do you mean, ' grace must be fueled by the Holy Spirit'?

The way I under stand grace it does not require anything from us but gives everything (good) to us as a free gift when we believe (by grace thru faith). Anything else is like Moses striking the rock (for water--blessings) the second time when the Father didn't tell him to strike it again, He told him to only speak to the rock (to receive from the rock) because the Rock had already been struck once. Aren't we all trying to strike the Rock again, and again, and again by not trusting that His first Strike was enough? It was more than the Father required to cover all of humanities sin debt. Jesus was more than enough and the Father is more than satisfied with Jesus' sacrifice. By adding anything to that, you are in effect taking away. The Father will never be satified with our works except the works of belief in the one He has sent. John 6:29 I think. Only our belief in His Son. That's it.

I can't remember the verse and it's too late to take the time and look it up, but one of Job's buddys said to him, ' So what if you had a big sin,how did that effect God? and so what if you had done such great deeds, How did that effect God?

I think Grace is much more powerful than most Christians believe it is, and I know The Father is so much better than we believe He is.. Grace IS the strength to overcome sin and by us giving grace to others, in the form of forgivness, is the way we grow in that strength; grace. But even if we fight that sin for several years before we overcome it, that sin is still covered by grace. Even if we fight it till we die, it's covered. So there is no need to feel condemned or guilty or to put guilt or condemnation on someone else for their sin. Because that Guilt is NOT from the Holy Spirit, it's from the accuser.

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Do you think that Grace is above the Holy Spirit ?
I think the Holy Spirit something that is needed always and if it is not there then it has noting to do with God at all.
One grows in Grace.
I may say the same to Hitler ( so what if you had a big sin ) and how did that affect God ?

No Mr. I think the Holy Spirit is Grace I think He's one of the ways God manifested His grace to us. I also think God loved Hitler more than you or I can imagine. I also think that Jesus is one day is going to tell Hitler to leave, that He never knew him, and that is going to be harder for Jesus than the cross was.

There was nothing Hitler did, that God would not have been glad to forgive. Was Paul any better? Are you? Am I? No! The Bible tell us that it is foolishness to compare ourselves to each other. We look at each other and think I'm better than that person, but not quite as good as that person. When the standard is so amazingly high above us all, we can't even see it. Yeah, we must look pretty silly to God when we compare ourselves that way.

as far as 'growing in grace' goes, wouldn't you have to grow in more sin, to grow in grace? where sin abounds, grace much more abounds. How else do we grow in grace? By going back under the law? No, that would be falling from grace. Grace, by definition is a free gift, and it can not be earned.

Hi rand,

as far as 'growing in grace' goes, wouldn't you have to grow in more sin, to grow in grace?

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A way of looking at 'growing in grace' would be to think of the 'grace' as the medium within which the person grows more like Jesus.

Faith is a grace
153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come "from flesh and blood", but from "my Father who is in heaven".[sup]24[/sup] Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and 'makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.'"[sup]25[/sup]

24 Matt 16:17; cf. Gal 1:15; Matt 11:25.
25 DV 5; cf. DS 377; 3010.

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2024 Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Episkopos said:

It seems this forum is like a magnet to the lawless ones who reduce Jesus Christ to an anarchist who tolerates sin...even dies to protect our right to sin. In this scheme men don't change or convert...GOD DOES! So the law or anything that shows the truth...is abolished. What a time we are living in. A time of no faith.

So do these busybodies coming here show the level of unbelief in the church as a whole?

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Yes they do. Some of them even come out on the streets to heckle, accuse and try to trip Gods messengers. They will even go as far as go get the news medias to chase you to try and do their bidding. they want you out of their face so that there pitiful little world can continue undisputed. But it doesn't really work that way because God will not be mocked and no one gets away with anything. the power of God ultimately wins. But do you think that they will ever repent, believe the gospel of Christ, ask God for his spirit and walk in it? One can only hope for their sake.