Pre-Wrath Eschatology - a Sequence of Events Analysis

Still to many debased non scriptural beliefs going on in this outline.

Just one for instance:

Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.

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The scripture does not say that anyone arrives in heaven.

Much of your outline is based on predisposed misrepresentations.

Son of Man said:

Still to many debased non scriptural beliefs going on in this outline.

Just one for instance:


The scripture does not say that anyone arrives in heaven.

Much of your outline is based on predisposed misrepresentations.

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I tend to agree with you and then some, but Teliosis isn't completely off the rails.

The premise of his outline does indeed appear to be based upon the bias of John Nelson Darby's dispensationalist version of 19th century millennialism and the heavily disjointed tribulation/rapture conceptions of the Niagara Conferences held in the early twentieth century. In my point of view what teliosis is doing correctly is to assemble a compilation of his own philosophy and rendering it to public examination. Whatever else may be said of him, he is a scholar. Mostly off center, but a scholar. I am confident that he will continue in his studious ways and thus enable his own discovery of the truth which ties current events to Biblical projections of future events. Bottom line is that I respect teliosis' effort. There are few that go that far.

I do the same but with much more varied data.

Assigning a sequence of events to Biblical predictions of future events is difficult. As an exercise pick a major event that was predicted in the O.T. and which we all know happened in great detail. The birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus is the best event I can think of, but the predictions and sequences of events during and after His ministry are very very difficult to pick out of Old Testament scripture. Its not all there in a few places all neatly tied up in a bow and presented to the reader. The prophecies are scattered all about like gems in the rough. No wonder Jewish scholars had such a hard time accepting Jesus as the Christ.

At the time of Jesus' ministry the major flaw in Jewish understanding, apart from the political aspect, was current events. The scholars stuck steadfastly to their understanding of prophecies regarding the advent of the Christ. Their problem, you see, was time. Current events alone were sufficient to nail down the faith of many who witnessed Jesus. They didn't concern themselves with eschatological interpretations because they saw miracles and heard good words. They believed simply because of the truth and the light they saw right in front of them. Its nearly impossible to dissuade a reasonable man when he can truly testify to divine miracles, wisdom and authority. Such men were willing to die for their testimony. The problem, from the scholars' point of view was time or timing.

As we now know, prophecies of the advent of Jesus fall into two general groups; first coming/advent and second coming/advent. The first has come and gone with sufficient impact to persuade men for two thousand years. The second is yet to come and will be even greater than the first if we are to believe what scripture tells us. The problem that Jewish scholars have both then and now is the concept of time. Scripture makes no reference to the fact that thousands of years would separate the two appearances of the Christ, none that are glaring anyway. In Genesis there are passages that reference the two advents, mysterious suggestions about Daniels' clock or calendar of weeks as well as the confusing passages in Revelation. Nothing about Jesus seems to be in proper order. Perhaps its supposed to be that way. In my opinion, if it was shown to us in chronological order men would try to intervene and 'help God with His plan', thus totally screwing things up in the process. God seems to be one step ahead of us all the way.

Its about time or timing. We are creatures that learn by means of patterns, but strict adherence to written prophecy is not meant to show us everything that's coming down the road every step of the way. We need to keep those references and address current events as well. The newspapers tell us much that scripture alludes to. Study is always wise and that's why I think teliosis is working rightly. The most glaring and exciting interpretations of end times events are those that mix scripture and current events.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Shalom, teleiosis (aka Sinner-Saint?)

teleiosis said:

I've held more than one idea on the timing of the end would come about. One Amillennially-centered book made eschatology very simple: it simply threw out the books of Daniel and Revelation. Yeah, right. Reading another book by Marvin Rosenthal, I said he's onto something, but his book was disjointed. Later, I read a book by LaHaye and Ice, and I while I liked how he logically constructed his book and all the various bits of information included in it, I was astonished at a glaring error they made in 2Th chapter 2 about rebellion: apostesia. So I went about writing my own book.

The book soon got dragged down by all the word study; it gets downright monotonous and it loses the flavor of the end-times, it's dynamic nature and rapidity of its crescendo. So in explaining my larger work on message boards like this to get a sounding of my ideas, to hone my arguments for and against, and also receive correction which I did get and re-formulated my thinking on that constructive criticism when warranted - I have come to this compilation of major, linear narratives in end-time prophecy.

Getting to the point: I'll publish the whole of it here, and then, because having the same argument over and over again on the Trumpets is boring to me, I'll show how I developed this new paradigm in eschatology step-by-step. To be sure, this is going to sound amazing to some, but I can back up everything presented here in Scripture. And the wonderful thing about it all is that everything aligns! There is no need to ignore some passages or verses and discount others! This is really exciting for me and I hope you get something out of it too.

• War (on Terror) between North and South
• The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
• Covenant with many prevailed by the Roman ruler who will come.
• Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
  • The rebellion occurs
  • Opposition and exaltation
  • He wages war against the Saints.
  • We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15)
  • Temple w/ Gentiles 42 mos.
• Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
• The “one” removed from the midst
• Gog/Magog War - flash flood invasion of Holy Land.
• Armies surround Jerusalem - pitches his tent at the Holy Mountain.
• Midpoint Abomination - Setting up the talking image of the anti-Christ
  • Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution.
  • Mikael arises
  • Two Witnesses 1260 days - call down Wrath
  • Great Tribulation.
• Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD.
  • Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
  • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
  • Martyr's deeds will be remembered (Two Witnesses left behind).
  • Deliverance = Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds.
    • Dead in Christ
    • Those who are alive and are left
  • Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.
  • Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal.
  • First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned - undoing the wicked.
    • Avenging Angel - Blood for the Winepress of God's Wrath.
• Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood.
• Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter.
• Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck.
• Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment.
• Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3 of man killed.
• Seventh Trumpet
  • First Bowl - Sores on Man
  • Second Bowl - All sea to blood
  • Third Bowl - All water to blood
  • Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
  • Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
  • Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
    • Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss.
    • The Great Multitude and the 24 Elders rejoice in Heaven.
    • Jesus (and the 144,000 go) / goes out to do battle.
    • end with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator
  • Seventh Bowl –
    • Victory at Armageddon: anti-Christ and false prophet captured.
    • Two Witnesses arise
    • Earth changing earthquake.
• The Atonement: The Messiah King seen as the formerly rejected Servant Messiah; Kingdom of this world belongs to Christ.
• 30 day period
  • First three beasts are allowed to live a while.
  • Anti-Christ and false prophet are judged to Hell - done away with entirely.
  • Satan imprisoned
  • Martyrs made alive / First Resurrection complete.
  • The Trek
• 45 day period
  • Accounting of the Saints
  • The encampment Sukkot
• Millennium of Christ
  • From the "camp" at Jerusalem
  • The Elect rule in His stead.
  • Satan loosened
  • All come against the camp and are destroyed - no remnant
• The second Resurrection of both Living and Dead from the grave
  • The separation of the Sheep (Millennium Saints) from the Goats (Wicked of all time).
  • Hell done away
• New Earth and a New Heavens.

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This sound ironically like an analysis made by a poster who called himself "Sinner-Saint" on another board in the past ... right down to the same four beginning points with the same four color patterns!

However, it is as the poster who calls himself "Son of Man" said. "(There are) still too many debased, non-Scriptural beliefs going on in this outline!" He pointed out the one example of "The scripture does not say that anyone arrives in heaven," and I agree with him.

Furthermore, you've begun from a wrong premise right from the "get-go!" Sinner-Saint began with Dani'el 9, which was DEFINITELY the wrong chapter as verses 24-27 are primarily about the Messiah, not the "anti-Messiah" or the "antichrist." The "prince that shall come" is NOT the antecedent for the words "he" in verse 27! Now, it looks as though you've taken Dani'el 11 as your approach instead, but this is STILL fraught with problems, because this chapter has already been fulfilled in history! The verses which you use from this chapter were already fulfilled by the events in the life of Antiochus IV "Epiphanes."

Since you put this up in honesty, I'll critque it in honesty, pointing to errors in your view. I'll do it using simple speech, since I don't care to write a book because I believe God's Holy Writ should be enough for us.

teleiosis said:

War (on Terror) between North and South

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I assume you're referring to the prophecies in Dan.11 with that. I agree that the Dan.11 prophecy about the kings of the north and south apply to the incoming of the Antichrist for the future tribulation time. And that part of Dan.11 can be applied as a multiple-fulfillment type of pattern, what has been will be again type of thing. Antiochus IV comes to mind historically.

The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”

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Many miss the actual number of beast kingdoms Daniel was shown. The final beast kingdom in the last generation is really a 5th beast kingdom. That's determined by the separate pieces that make the statue image in Dan.2. There are 5 pieces, not 4. (1-head of gold; 2-breast and arms of silver, 3-belly and thigs of brass, 4-legs of iron, 5-feet of iron mixed with clay.) Per the Book of Daniel, Christ is to come and strike that symbolic statue upon its 'feet', and then the all the pieces 'together' come falling down (Dan.2:34-35). The idea is that all... five pieces representing symbolic kingdoms are established together for the end. Starting with the kingdom of Babylon, each successive beast kingdom covered a larger area. The final 5th one will engulf all the earth, all nations.

Covenant with many prevailed by the Roman ruler who will come.

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Linking the final 5th beast kingdom with Rome is a major error, even though many do it today (especially among the Pre-trib school). The matter of the "abomination of desolation" and daily sacrifice mentioned in Daniel in relation to the "vile person" who comes to power via the "league" made with "a small people" (small group) is in direct relation to the area of Jerusalem, not Rome. The "abomination of desolation" is about the setting up of an idol in a temple in Jerusalem per Scripture, and is... the Biblical pattern. It was also the historical pattern of Antiochus IV in 165-170 B.C. in Jerusalem. Thus the Roman connection some have today (Hal Lindsay, et al) is mere supposition based from the historical pagan Roman empire having been the 4th beast of Daniel.

Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
The rebellion occurs
Opposition and exaltation
He wages war against the Saints.
We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15)
Temple w/ Gentiles 42 mos.

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If those above sub-headings are a part of the top statement, then you've left quite a bit out. The Dan.9 prophecy is in relation to the "little horn" or "vile person" coming to power, and then in the middle of Daniel's final "one week" (7 years), the "vile person" is to setup the abomination that makes desolate, ending the daily sacrifice. The whole period of 7 years is thus divided into two separate 1260 day periods by that prophecy. The first period is a preparation time for the abomination of desolation being setup. The first 1260 day period will involve the "league" the "vile person" will make, preparing a temple and starting sacrifices again in Jerusalem. When those sacrifices are ended with the abomination idol being setup, that signifies the midpoint (middle of the "one week"), the last 1260 day period being the time of the false one's war against the saints, and the 42 months of the dragon's rule per Rev.13. This 1260 day period is when God's "two witnesses" will appear in Jerusalem, giving witness against the beast. This latter period Christ shortend for the sake of His elect.

Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
The “one” removed from the midst
Gog/Magog War - flash flood invasion of Holy Land.
Armies surround Jerusalem - pitches his tent at the Holy Mountain.

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The working of the false prophet, i.e., the "another beast" of Rev.13, is for the second half of Daniel's "one week". He comes to power in Jerusalem at the midpoint of Daniel's "one week". That's what begins the 2nd half of Daniel's "one week", along with his placing the abomination idol that makes desolate, ending the daily sacrifice in Jerusalem. And a very important aspect of his coming to power in Jerusalem per the Daniel prophecy is that he uses 'peace' and 'flatteries', not a conquering army (Dan.11:21). He comes to power in Jerusalem by politcal means, not by military strength. Thus your insert of the Gog/Magog event is a major error. The Gog/Magog event of Ezek.38 & 39 is for the very end of the final 1260 day period, for the time when Christ returns on the "day of the Lord". That event is the battle of Armaggedon per Rev.16. It ends the tribulation and this present world time, and the Antichrist's reign in Jerusalem. Per Dan.11, he uses an army against the king of the south after... he has already come to power in Jerusalem. Also, the destruction of the Gog/Magog army per Ezek.39 is a parallel Scripture event aligned with God's great supper for the fowls at the end of Rev.16. It's what ushers the earth into Christ's future Millennium reign.

Midpoint Abomination - Setting up the talking image of the anti-Christ
Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution.
Mikael arises
Two Witnesses 1260 days - call down Wrath
Great Tribulation.

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The Archangel Michael makes a 'stand' at the midpoint of the "one week", for that's what casts the 'dragon' down to the earth to directly persecute Christ's Church on earth (Rev.12:7 forward; Dan.12:1). That's when the "great tribulation" will begin with the requirement to bow in false worship and the setting up of the mark. God's two witnesses will begin their prophesying during that period for 1260 days (Rev.11).

Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD.
Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
Martyr's deeds will be remembered (Two Witnesses left behind).

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Firstly, the "day of the Lord" event is the time of Christ's coming to gather His Church, and His time of wrath upon the wicked on earth, and the end of the tribulation and antichrist's reign, and the end of this present world. All those events occur within the hour of the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period of Rev.11.

Secondly, the 144,000 elect of the seed of Israel are 'sealed' prior... to the "great tribulation", for as to make a stand during the trib. The so-called mustering upon Zion is for AFTER... Christ Jesus has returned. It's about the gathering of His saints to go to Jerualem on earth. So you've made a timing error with that.

Thirdly, the three angels declarations in Rev.14:6-12 are parallels to other Rev. events, two of them during tribulation time with The Gospel being heralded to the nations (Mark 13:9-13), and one for after God's cup of wrath has been poured out to destroy the symbolic Babylon of Revelation. So with the 2nd angel of Rev.14, it is error to include his particular Message being about warning during trib time, when his Message is declaration of Babylon is fallen.

And forthly, God's "two witnesses" of Rev.11 include the 'candlesticks' symbol which represent the Churches per Rev.1:20. Two specific type Churches out of the 7 Churches of Rev.2 & 3 make a stand along with the two witnesses. So if 2 Churches are with them for the tribulation period, guess what that means for the other 5 Churches of Rev.2 & 3? They are all still on earth during the 1260 days period like the two witnesses are. Thus that's another error you made by declaring that the two witnesses are 'left-behind'. With that you're wrongly inserting a 'rapture' for the Church where one does not exist per the Scripture.

Deliverance = Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds.
Dead in Christ
Those who are alive and are left
Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.

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Right there you are wrongly inserting a rapture of the Church, and God's "two wittnesses" of Rev.11 haven't even been killed in Jerusalem yet. It's also error to imply a rapture of the "great multitude" of Rev.7, since the idea about them is that they washed their robes in The Blood of The Lamb, meaning they went through the tribulation and overcame by Christ's Blood. They represent the elect sealed of the Gentiles. What God's sealing FOR per Revelation 9? It's a sealing by The Holy Spirit against...the dragon's deception during the tribulation. That's what the main subject of Rev.7 is about, the four winds held back until God's servants on earth are sealed for the tribulation. Got an election of Israel sealed to go through the tribulation, and also got an election among the Gentiles sealed to go through the tribulation, both together representing Christ's Church. They will be the only faithful ones to not bow to the coming false messiah/antichrist.

Also, you've made an error with the gathering to Christ. There's only 2 separate groups of saints Christ gathers on the last day, the asleep (dead) saints, and the saints still alive on earth when Christ comes. Both are gathered as one group at His coming. Those of the "great multitude" not killed during... the tribulation are that group of alive saints Christ gathers when He comes to end the tribulation (i.e., "day of the Lord" timing). Once gathered with Christ returning to this earth, they all go to Jerusalem with Him, not to Heaven away from the earth (Zech.14). Everyone else will suffer Christ's wrath at that moment.

Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal.
First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned - undoing the wicked.
Avenging Angel - Blood for the Winepress of God's Wrath.

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Here you've got the time of God's wrath upon the wicked on the very 1st Trumpet. That's totally... out of event order. Per Rev.11 God's "two witnesses" are still prophesying (1260 days) on earth against the 'beast' all the way up to the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period. That means the time of Christ's coming and wrath is not yet until the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe. But you're already putting that time of wrath at the 1st Trumpet? That's impossible. By that error you've made, It's very clear that you're following men's doctrines and agenda, and not God's Word on this.

Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood.
Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter.
Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck.
Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment.
Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3 of man killed.
Seventh Trumpet

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Clearly, you're trying to follow the exact written order but not the actual 'event' order of Revelation. You've made the error that many make with the timing of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials, that of thinking their events occur in the exact order they're written down in Revelation. The four angels at Euphrates are loosed on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, with the locust army doing its thing (stinging) by what comes out of their 'mouths' (Rev.9). Then in Rev.10 Christ warned us that everything is over by the sounding of the 7th angel (i.e., 7th Trumpet). Then Rev.11 picks the timing back up still within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. The Gentiles are still tredding the temple court and there's worship going on inside the temple on that 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period of Rev.11, and God's two witnesses are prophesying! What you've missed is that there is a specific point of Wrath on "the day of the Lord" when Christ returns, and it is not the prior times of wrath, not the trouble the two witnesses make, and not the wrath of the 6 Vials. The WWIII event (which is a battle that God fights, not us) occurs on the 7th Vial and 7th Trumpet and 6th-7th Seals. That's when Christ returns. So no need for me to go any further with this, since you've left the actual meaning of the 'events' given in Scripture in favor of a legalist chronologly from men's traditions.

You lost me here:

War (on Terror) between North and South

North and South what?

I knwo you knwo butyou seem to assume I'd know too,

Peace,Ted

veteran said:

...
I assume you're referring to the prophecies in Dan.11 with that. I agree that the Dan.11 prophecy about the kings of the north and south apply to the incoming of the Antichrist for the future tribulation time. And that part of Dan.11 can be applied as a multiple-fulfillment type of pattern, what has been will be again type of thing. Antiochus IV comes to mind historically.
...

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I'm just going to touch on this much for now.

"YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT, TOO!"

Ever hear that phrase? It was made before photography was invented. You can't have your beautifully decorated cake to admire and eat it as well! You have to make a choice. Either you have to keep the cake for admiration only or you have to break down and CUT THE CAKE! Well, this is a GOOD example of the intentions behind that phrase!

There's no such thing as a "multiple-fulfillment type of pattern" in prophecy! That's somebody's mixed-up way of trying to "have their cake" (have it still as an unfulfilled prophecy for the future) "and eat it, too" (have it be a fulfilled prophecy in the lifetime of Antiochus IV Epiphanes)!

Some well-meaning believers mix this up with a "double reference." They are NOT the same thing! Here's what Douglas Connelly said in his book, Bible Prophecy for Blockheads: A User-Friendly Look at the End Times (Zondervan, Grand Rapids, MI, 2002), on page 33:

Techno-Speak: Double Reference

The term double reference is used to describe a Scripture passage in which part of the passage is fulfilled at one time while another part is fulfilled at a later time. Zechariah 9:9-10 is a clear example. Verse 9 was fulfilled during Jesus' earthly ministry; verse 10 will be fulfilled at Jesus' second coming.

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And, to make this clear, here are the verses:

Zechariah 9:9-10
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV

Another VERY CLEAR example is Yeshua`s quotation of Isaiah 61:1-2 in Luke 4:18-19:

Isaiah 61:1-3
61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.
KJV

Luke 4:16-21
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
KJV

Yeshua` read until the first half of verse 2 but read no further. That much was fulfilled in Yeshua`s first coming. The rest would be fulfilled in the future, at His SECOND coming.

What you are suggesting in your statement "multiple-fulfillment type of pattern" is nothing short of CONFUSION! How can a prophecy have "multiple fulfillments?" You're suggesting that the first "fulfillment" wasn't the true "fulfillment!" OR, is it the SECOND "fulfillment" that isn't the true "fulfillment?" You can't have it both ways. Either the first historical fulfillment was the fulfillment of the prophecy or it was not! It HAS to be something that can DEFINITIVELY be said to be the prophecy's fulfillment! Consider God's orders about prophecy and prophets:

Deuteronomy 18:17-22
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
KJV

1 Samuel 3:19-20
19 And Samuel grew, and the Lord was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.
20 And all Israel from Dan even to Beer-sheba knew that Samuel was established to be a prophet of the Lord.
KJV

So, the prophecy must be able to be checked for accuracy in fulfillment in order to determine the validity of the prophet! That means that it MUST be fulfilled ONCE! That's not to say that PART of the prophecy could be fulfilled at one time and the rest fulfilled at a later date, but that is NOT what you are suggesting! YOU are suggesting that the ONE prophecy could be fulfilled MORE THAN ONCE! That begs the question, "Which fulfillment was intended by the prophet?!" Even more to the point, "which fulfillment was intended by the Author of the prophecy?!"

The concept of "double reference" is...

prophecy part A --> fulfillment A; prophecy part B --> fulfillment B.

You're suggesting...

fulfillment A <-- prophecy --> fulfillment B!

And, THAT is confusion and is WRONG!

Retrobyter said:

I'm just going to touch on this much for now.

"YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT, TOO!"

Ever hear that phrase? It was made before photography was invented. You can't have your beautifully decorated cake to admire and eat it as well! You have to make a choice. Either you have to keep the cake for admiration only or you have to break down and CUT THE CAKE! Well, this is a GOOD example of the intentions behind that phrase!

There's no such thing as a "multiple-fulfillment type of pattern" in prophecy! That's somebody's mixed-up way of trying to "have their cake" (have it still as an unfulfilled prophecy for the future) "and eat it, too" (have it be a fulfilled prophecy in the lifetime of Antiochus IV Epiphanes)!

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Obviously you don't understand about prophetic patterns in God's Word. Or subconsciously you do, but it's just not gotten to your subjective mind yet. Afterall, there's a reason why the Isaiah 21 phrase "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" is repeated in Revelation again because of the old Babylon pattern fitting events for the end. Same thing with the "abomination of desolation" prophecy which Jesus quoted AFTER... Antiochus had been dead for around 190 years. Same thing happens with the "day of the Lord" phrase, and God's consuming fire idea, and the Malachi 4 prophecy about Elijah coming prior to the end.

teleiosis said:

___________________________________________________

Veteran:

I am not wrong; you just see things through the lens of your own interpretation and eschatology. As I do not have the ability to raise your intelligence so you can see past your own eschatology, I suggest you try to show why the methodology is incorrect rather than have me argue from the basis of what you think is going on in Bible prophecy. Five Kingdoms... indeed!

____________________________________________________________________

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The reason why many stick with what is popular is because it supposes an element of safety. Interpretation of Revelation in the literal order it was given John, and in the order he wrote it down is a method that's popular with men, because there's an element of safety in it, they think. That's why those who do that don't understand our Lord's Revelation events. It's why so many different doctrinal stances have come about with Revealtion.

But concentrating on the actual Biblical events which many were first taught in the OT prophets is The Lord's Way. One MUST first understand the events as given, and then the order they occur can only be discovered after getting that understanding. That means the symbols and metaphors our Lord used elsewhere in His Word are of extreme importance in the discovery of the proper order of events in Revelation.

In the Bible Studies section I put up a quick study in Joel and Rev.9 about the locust army. The Rev.9 description of the locusts does not stand alone by itself, which is what trying to follow a "linear narrative" interpretation of Revelation forces one into. The greater definition of what the locusts of Rev.9 represent is written in the Book of Joel. Thus Christ giving John the vision of the locusts in Rev.9 automatically made the locust Message in the Book of Joel a part of Revelation 9.

By the descriptions of the locust working in the Book of Joel, God is only using the locust symbol as a metaphor for "a nation" that comes upon His land and His people in the last days. But not in the sense of WWIII like your "linear narrative" interpretation from men has led you to think. Those men who taught you that idea haven't heeded the Book of Joel about the locust metaphor any more than they have about the specific clues Christ gave in Rev.9 to show us the locusts are not about a literal military army, but they only act... like an army in how they devour people's minds and hearts through what comes out of their 'mouths' (words of lies).

In the first part of Rev.9, the locusts are commanded that they cannot hurt the grass of the earth, nor trees, nor any green thing, but only men, and only certain men, i.e., those NOT sealed with God's seal. Compare that then with what a literal military army would do, and a literal army idea won't fit.

If the locusts are only allowd to hurt men not sealed with God's seal, and only for a period of five months, what does that mean for those of God's servants that are... sealed? Again, compare that to a literal army, and it does not fit, for a one-third of men literally... slain by the locusts would have mean only those sealed by God only, i.e., Christ's servants.

The locusts have hair as the hair of women, but teeth as lions. That's heavy metaphor, some of it from the Book of Joel. That's only about how they attack their prey, and it's linked with the fire and brimstone that comes out of their mouths. It's about soothsayers, deceivers, come to destroy one's soul through deception, not WWIII with literal bullets.

The locusts have crowns of gold and faces of men. Those crowns can represent two things, either fake king rulers on the earth in the last days, like the ten kings of Rev.17, or... the idea of fake ministers of righteousness, a.k.a. Paul's Message in 2 Corinthians 11 about Satan's servants.

They have breastplates of iron. Again, more than one possible intepretation. A breastplate of the soldier for war is an easy interpretation, but not necessarily the right interpretation in the context of Rev.9. Another possibility is the OT Hebrew priest's breastplate. The breastplate joined with the previous metaphors suggest what they wear is more aligned with the Hebrew priest breastplate, but used for deception against God's people. Their's being of simple 'iron' instead of the beautiful Hebrew priest breastplate with precious jewels to represent the 12 tribes also aligns with the white horse riding conqueror of Rev.6 who comes wearing a crown with a cheap bow vs. how Christ comes on a white horse wearing many crowns and having a two-edged sword that cuts both ways (Rev.19).

Shalom, teleiosis.

teleiosis said:

Cameron Fultz, an architech, wrote a book entitled: Prophecy's Architecture and in it he said that we have to construct our eschatology like a bulding by concentrating on the load-bearing structure first - the columns and beams. In eschatology these columns and beams are the major narratives of end-time Bible prophecy - we do not start forming our eschatology on the figurative basis of locusts...

His list, not unlike mine in many ways, has the columns and beams of any good eschatology as being: the book of Revelation, Mt 24/Mk 13 (the Olivet Discourse), 2Th 2, Dan 12, and Daniel 9:24-27.

Now in my analysis, I had found parallel accounts, but another type of account is a multiple account. A multiple account is when another author describes the same series of events. This happens in they Synoptic Gospels a lot. The neat thing about different authors is that they will have slightly different takes on the action depending upon what theme is important for them to bring out. These differences do not show discrepancy; they can be added. For instance, in one account, an author might say: "...and then the Angel spoke," while in a multiple account of that same action being related, another author says: "Two Angels appeared." Is there a discrepancy? In one, all we have is an Angel speaking - in the other that there are two. Well in the first instance, what the Angel said is important; the other author, on the other hand, instead wants to emphasize that these Angels were reliable witnesses because there were two of them. Between the two multiple accounts, we can then relate that two Angels appeared and one spoke. Both accounts are true, and we add some information to our understanding.

So, so far I started with the Olivet Discourse of Mt 24. It boils down to these five specific and unique events:

v. 15 - The (midpoint) abomination.
v. 21-22 - The shortened Great Tribulation
v. 29 The sun/moon/star event
v. 30 Jesus on the clouds
v. 31 The gathering of the Elect

Now in Luke 21, he gives a slightly different picture of the end of the Church Age:

20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.
21 Then (you) let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, (you) let those in the city get out, and (you) let those in the country not enter the city.
22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.
23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.
24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.
26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

We have another sequence of events:

v. 21 - Jerusalem surrounded by armies
v. 23 - Great Tribulation
v. 25 - The sun/moon/star event
v. 27 - Jesus on the clouds
v. 28 - Redemption

Now four out of the five events are the same - but more importantly - they are in the same order!

This is what is exciting for me, because the Bible is wonderfully consistent in this regard!

Now between the first two events of each sequence between Matthew and Luke, which comes first?
They BOTH come before the Great Tribulation - that much we can be certain; but which precedes the other?

In this case, the King of the North, as is one of the anti-Christ's many titles in the Bible, is not germane to Israel - coming from a sea of peoples (Europe) - he must come to Jerusalem before he can enter the Temple and proclaim his godhood - which is part of the midpoint abomination.

So in preparing the overall sequence of events: we can integrate this other major, linear, multiple, narrative along these lines:

• Jerusalem surrounded by armies
• Midpoint Abomination
• Great Tribulation
• sun/moon/star event
• Jesus on the clouds
• Redemption - the gathering of the Elect.

In this way, we can start the long process of building up through combining specific and unique events in individual prophetic accounts which are linear in their narration - a holistic master sequence of events.

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Let me start by saying that whatever handle you go by, whatever your true name is, I love you just the same, brother! I'm proud of the way you handle the Scriptures, and I love your analytical mind!

Now, I've done a little editing/highlighting of the Luke passage you quoted above. If you will notice, please, the pronoun is "you" in translation (or a "you-understood" bound in the verbs) in verses 20 and 21. "Humeis, humoon, humoon, humin, humin, humin, humas" in Greek, if you prefer, and the "-ete" ending of the verbs. That's because verses 20-23 took place and were fulfilled in 66-70 A.D. He was talking to His listeners DIRECTLY at this point!

Verse 24 shoots the scope into the future. Notice carefully the wording...

24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Verse 24 will TAKE TIME to fulfill! "Prisoners to ALL the nations?" That trickle-down effect went on throughout the next two millennia, and the "times of the Gentiles" have YET to be fulfilled. Notice, too, the shift in pronoun! Now it is "THEY" instead of "YOU." And, the noun in the last sentence is "Jerusalem" with a reflexive verb! Thus, verse 24 is partially fulfilled, as well, but it is STILL IN PROGRESS! THAT'S where we are today, although we are probably getting close to the end of the "times of the Gentiles."

Preterists are not wrong about verses 20-23 being in the past; however, they miss-read verse 24 because it is HERE that Yeshua` changes the perspective from the first century to far in the future, even OUR future, and I believe that you and I are on the same page with verses 25-28.

Now, as far as your list of five events in Matthew 24, the last three MAY be considered to be events. I'll grant you those. HOWEVER, the first two are NOT events that are yet to happen. While the "abomination of desolation" WAS an event that took place in the first century, the "Great Tribulation" is a time PERIOD, not an event. Furthermore, it was neither fulfilled in the past as the preterists believe, nor is it yet to be fulfilled in the future, as most futurists believe. It BEGAN in the past and has continued now for almost 2,000 years and will continue until the sun, moon, and stars event occurs. Who ever said that it was 3.5 years?! There is NO proof whatsoever that there is ANY bond between the 70th seven of Dani'el 9 and the "Great Tribulation!" That is PURELY a fabrication from eschatology, a part of man's system of theology!

It is VERY important that you quit using the terms "abomination of desolation" and "the Great Tribulation" as labels! They're not just some TAGS that Yeshua` put on this event and time period! They MEANT something! They MEAN something! And, WHAT they mean is of paramount importance! Furthermore, just because those words "abomination" and "desolation" are used in a few verses, doesn't mean that those verses are necessarily related! As with ALL concepts in Scripture, one ABSOLUTELY MUST test what he thinks he knows against the CONTEXT of those verses!

Yeshua` was recorded in Greek as saying, "Hotan oun ideete to bdelugma tees ereemooseoos to reethen dia Danieel tou profeetou hestos en topoo hagioo,..." in Matthew 24:15, and "Hotan de ideete to bdelugma tees ereemooseoos hesteekota hopou ou dei,..." in Mark 13:14. The minor exception is Matthew's account using "oun" ("therefore") while Mark's account using "de" ("but"). The only other difference (outside of the questionable inclusion of whether Mark's account includes the words "that spoken though Daniel the prophet") are "hestos en topoo hagioo" and "hesteekota hopou ou dei." I'm of the opinion that BOTH are accurate inclusions of what Yeshua` actually said that day (in Hebrew). Therefore, we need to take the UNION of the two statements, including BOTH phrases in one statement: "But therefore when you-shall-see the detestation of devastation, that spoken through the prophet Dani'el, standing where it ought not, standing in the holy place,..."

Even here, the "detestation of devastation" does quite make it real to us. We need words that make it real for us and take this phrase out of the abstract. We DON'T USE THESE WORDS in normal conversation any more than we use "abomination of desolation!" The phrase in Hebrew and in Greek needs to become real for us!

"Desolation" has various synonyms in Roget's Thesaurus, namely, "waste, depopulation, dismalness, devastation, wretchedness, sadness, forlornness." The concept in Greek is "emptiness; plundered," and in Hebrew it's "stunned; stupefied." IF both are true because the Greek is an adequate translation of the Hebrew, then "shocked; devastated; plundered" may be among the best synonyms.

"Abomination" has various synonyms as well: "detestation, abhorrence, aversion, antipathy, loathing, execration, hate, hatred, dislike, disgusted, shuddered at" are among many. The concept in Greek is "loathing; detesting." The concept in Hebrew is "disgusting; filthy," which also applies to how they were supposed to feel about idols. Again, if BOTH are true, then "loathing; disgusting" may be among the best synonyms in English.

So, the phrase is best understood to mean it's the "disgusted loathing" of "shock at being plundered and devastated!"

And, as far as the book of Dani'el is concerned, the three places in the whole book that use both words in some fashion are 9:27; 11:31; and 12:11. HOWEVER, just because these are three verses that use both words in some fashion does NOT mean that all three or ANY of the three are related! We have to look closer at both the context and the way the words are used.

Two entirely different usages are employed between Dani'el 9 and Dani'el 11. Dani'el 9 uses the phrase, "v-`al k'naf shiqquwtsiym m'shomeem," which translates to "and-against a-spread-out-wing of-disgusting-and-filthy-(things) he-shall-make-stunned/stupefied!" Here, it is the PERSON that causes the stunning AGAINST the spread-out wing of disgusting things. Dani'el 11 uses the phrase, "v-naatnuw hashiqquwts m'showmeem," which translates to "and-they-shall-place the-disgusting-and-filthy-(thing) that-makes-stunned/stupefied!" In this phrase, it is the disgusting and filthy thing that CAUSES the stunning! Furthermore, this follows the phrase, "v-chililuw hamiqdaash hamaa`uwz," which translates to "and-they-shall-pollute the-sanctuary of-the-strength," implying the Temple.

It can be shown that Dani'el 11:31 was fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Furthermore, the rest of the chapter can also be shown to be fulfilled through several figures in history, from the last four Persian kings and Alexander the Great, to Herod the Great as he served under Caesar Augustus. Therefore, we can pull this passage OUT of the repertoire of unfulfilled prophecy.

HOWEVER, Dani'el 9:27 CAN apply to what Yeshua` was talking about! It is STILL not totally fulfilled (although much of the 70 sevens have been fulfilled)! And, it is my belief that it was for the abominations - the "disgusting and filthy things" - that the JEWS of Yeshua`s time did, that Yeshua` caused them to be "stunned/stupefied!" The word used in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 (ereemoseoos) is the noun form of the adjective (ereemos) used in Matthew 23:38! The SAME WORD used for "abominations" was also used in Luke 16:15:

Luke 16:13-15
13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
KJV

Can you see how well this all fits?

teleiosis said:

Cameron Fultz, an architech, wrote a book entitled: Prophecy's Architecture and in it he said that we have to construct our eschatology like a bulding by concentrating on the load-bearing structure first - the columns and beams. In eschatology these columns and beams are the major narratives of end-time Bible prophecy - we do not start forming our eschatology on the figurative basis of locusts...

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Well then, he too obviously missed God's Message in the Book of Joel about the locusts being figurative for "a nation", a certain people (Joel 1:6). Someone interpreting the many figurative symbols and metaphors God uses in His Word to explain an event must present folks like you're talking about with a whole lot of material for making wild monster movies.

His list, not unlike mine in many ways, has the columns and beams of any good eschatology as being: the book of Revelation, Mt 24/Mk 13 (the Olivet Discourse), 2Th 2, Dan 12, and Daniel 9:24-27.

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If you cannot fathom how God is using the locust idea in Joel and Rev.9 as a symbolic metaphor, then it means your foundation rests upon sand. That's why God links up the "nation" and "a great people and a strong" with the locust idea early in the Book of Joel.

Retrobyter said:

Now, I've done a little editing/highlighting of the Luke passage you quoted above. If you will notice, please, the pronoun is "you" in translation (or a "you-understood" bound in the verbs) in verses 20 and 21. "Humeis, humoon, humoon, humin, humin, humin, humas" in Greek, if you prefer, and the "-ete" ending of the verbs. That's because verses 20-23 took place and were fulfilled in 66-70 A.D. He was talking to His listeners DIRECTLY at this point!

Verse 24 shoots the scope into the future. Notice carefully the wording...

24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Verse 24 will TAKE TIME to fulfill! "Prisoners to ALL the nations?" That trickle-down effect went on throughout the next two millennia, and the "times of the Gentiles" have YET to be fulfilled. Notice, too, the shift in pronoun! Now it is "THEY" instead of "YOU." And, the noun in the last sentence is "Jerusalem" with a reflexive verb! Thus, verse 24 is partially fulfilled, as well, but it is STILL IN PROGRESS! THAT'S where we are today, although we are probably getting close to the end of the "times of the Gentiles."

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Forgive me, I've got to step in a bit.

The Luke 21:20-23 verses do point historically to the events of the Romans destroying Jerusalem and the temple in 69 A.D. But it ALSO points to a similar event to occur just prior to Christ's second coming also, for the armies of Gog-Magog are to come upon Israel on the last day of this present world (Ezek.38-39). That's the battle of Armageddon of Rev.16 on the "day of the Lord" which occurs on the 7th Vial. It's this event here...

Zeph 3:8-10
8 Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve Him with one consent.
10 From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My suppliants, even the daughter of My dispersed, shall bring Mine offering.
(KJV)


So I fail to grasp how someone that pretends to be so learned in God's Word has completely missed that future gathering of the nations around Jerusalem for God's pouring out His cup of Wrath upon them on the last day of this world.


It must be remembered that Jesus was giving endtime Signs there in Luke 21 that parallel the 7 Signs of Matt.24 and Mark 13, signs that align with the 7 Seals of Rev.6.

I know you have a problem with the idea of multiple fulfillments (partial fulfillments actually), but that's why that Luke 21:20-23 section is still applicable for future events just like the rest of it is.

Preterists are not wrong about verses 20-23 being in the past; however, they miss-read verse 24 because it is HERE that Yeshua` changes the perspective from the first century to far in the future, even OUR future, and I believe that you and I are on the same page with verses 25-28.

Now, as far as your list of five events in Matthew 24, the last three MAY be considered to be events. I'll grant you those. HOWEVER, the first two are NOT events that are yet to happen. While the "abomination of desolation" WAS an event that took place in the first century, the "Great Tribulation" is a time PERIOD, not an event.

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The "abomination of desolation" was NOT fulfilled in the 1st century. But a pattern for how it is to be fulfilled was given in 165-170 B.C. by Antiochus IV doing almost everything to fit it, almost everything in the prophecy that is. Treating the idea of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel as being about 'destruction' of the temple and Jerusalem by the Romans in 69 A.D. is NOT the Daniel prophecy.

The "abomination of desolation" per Daniel is about a false one setting up an IDOL INSIDE the temple at Jerusalem, causing false idol worship. And that's the pattern of what Antiochus IV did. Yet Christ warned of the "abomination of desolation" from Daniel long AFTER Antiochus had already done that. Per the Jewish historian Josephus, the Romans attempted to seize the 2nd temple in Jerusalem, not destroy it. The temple caught fire from the INSIDE before the Roman army could capture it. Thus the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from Daniel was never fulfilled by the Romans in 69 A.D.

The "abomination of desolation" prophecy is reserved for the coming Antichrist in the end of days just prior to Christ's return. That's what the "image of the beast" per Rev.13 is about, i.e., IDOL worship.

Furthermore, it was neither fulfilled in the past as the preterists believe, nor is it yet to be fulfilled in the future, as most futurists believe. It BEGAN in the past and has continued now for almost 2,000 years and will continue until the sun, moon, and stars event occurs. Who ever said that it was 3.5 years?! There is NO proof whatsoever that there is ANY bond between the 70th seven of Dani'el 9 and the "Great Tribulation!" That is PURELY a fabrication from eschatology, a part of man's system of theology!

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You're wrong about that too. Your problem is that you refuse to address the idea of the ending of the daily sacrifice and the placing of the abomination that maketh desolate that's written elsewhere in Daniel other than the Dan.9:27 verse.

It is VERY important that you quit using the terms "abomination of desolation" and "the Great Tribulation" as labels! They're not just some TAGS that Yeshua` put on this event and time period! They MEANT something! They MEAN something! And, WHAT they mean is of paramount importance! Furthermore, just because those words "abomination" and "desolation" are used in a few verses, doesn't mean that those verses are necessarily related! As with ALL concepts in Scripture, one ABSOLUTELY MUST test what he thinks he knows against the CONTEXT of those verses!

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Bad suggestion. The real "abomination of desolation" event per Daniel and per our Lord Jesus Christ in His Olivet Discourse is... for the time of the "great tribulation" He forewarned us about. It's even linked to the events of Ezekiel 8 & 9 about the end. That "abomination of desolation" is represented by the "image of jealousy", an IDOL setup for false worship in the temple in Jerusalem which makes God jealous.

In Ezekiel 8, God takes Ezekiel by vision inside the temple at Jerusalem to show him all sorts of pagan images and practices of idol worship inside the temple originating from pagan occult ideology. That's who is going to use the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem which Orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem are preparing to build, in prep for the coming false messiah/antichrist which Jesus warned us of for the end. Apostle Paul directly... warned of that event in 2 Thessalonians 2 with the "son of perdition" and "that Wicked" which is to come to sit in that temple, showing himself that he is God, exalting himself over all that is worshipped or called God.

And that's the REAL "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel, AND the prophetic event our Lord Jesus was referring to (Matt.24:23-26). Let's see you once again just skip over that specific Matt.24:21-28 and Mark 13:19-24 warning to hold to men's doctrines instead.

Shalom, teleiosis.

teleiosis said:

I see how you have fitted it all together and I still disagree with your Preterist notions.

First assumption: The second person conjugation of letting those in

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teleiosis said:

Judea in Lk 21:21 is addressed to the same person as is addressed in Lk 21:20.

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Well, duh! The verses are back to back; they are both in the second-person plural, and they are talking about the same kind of distress! If they are NOT addressed to the same personS, then the author should have been more specific! I'll give you that it's an "assumption," but it's a VALID assumption!

teleiosis said:

Second assumption: the FIRST Jewish Revolt of A.D. 67-70 results in the disapora. This is not true; there was a second Jewish Revolt the following century circa A.D. 132-135. Lk 21:24 does necessitate this time as being 2000 years long, it just has to go until the end.

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Look, as I said, 70 A.D. was the BEGINNING of the terrible distress ("tribulation"), and that distress, primarily on the Jewish people, has not finished, yet! I'd say 135 A.D. falls within that time period, wouldn't you? And it DID result in the diaspora! Without the central focal point of the Temple intact, the Jews were "fighting the wind," without direction and without bearing. It was the beginning of the end, so to speak, and when they listened to the false messiah, Shimown Bar Kokhba, their mission was doomed from the start! It doesn't matter that this was 65 years later, it is STILL the result of Yeshua` pronouncing and leaving them "desolate!" The "mered bar Kokhba" that they staged from 132 to 135 A.D. WAS JUST LIKE their ancestors did when after the spies returned from the Land of promise: God rejected that generation and THEN they were all "repentant" and tried to go into the Land without God's blessing or protection, and they got WHUPPED!

God had already given them the space of 40 years to repent before the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., and they REFUSED to repent! They had rejected God's Messiah! So, when another "messiah" came along, "Oh, we'll do better with THIS messiah!" And, Isra'el got WHUPPED again!

teleiosis said:

The "confirmation" of Daniel 9:27 third person singular conjugation (and 'confirm' is a lousy translation of gabar in this passage and another glaring error by the King James translators which has continued to confound ordinary people for 400 years) reverts back to the last person mentioned and that is the Prince who shall come out of the people who destroy the city and the sanctuary in Dan 9:26. That is a Hebrew grammar rule and it is exactly like the English.

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Ummm... no.

First, "gaavar" means "to be strong" and as such can also mean "to prevail" or "to conquer" or even "to act insolently." However, these are secondary definitions determined by the context. That's why Strong's says, "BY IMPLICATION, to prevail, act insolently!" So, when the wording is "v-higbiyr" in verse 27 it means "and-he-shall-make-strong." The next word is "b'riyt" meaning "a covenant." It is the direct object by position. It doesn't need the "et" pointer because there's nothing else in the verse that could be the direct object. So, the wording then is "and-he-shall-make-strong a-covenant." What does that sound like to you?

Now, you used to use the word "prevail" in a rather weird way. I forget exactly how you worded it, but I can remember thinking, "That's NOT how the word is normally used in conversation" (not that many people use the word in "normal conversation"), but when one makes a covenant strong, what does that imply? It does NOT mean to make a NEW covenant; it means to make an EXISTING covenant STRONG! I don't care if you want to use "confirm" or something more modern, like "ratify," but THAT is the intent of the phrase! It's to ESTABLISH it, to GIRD it up, to SUPPORT it, to make it STRONG!

Second, I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say this before it sticks: In a Hebrew "construct state," secondary nouns ALWAYS receive the word "of ..." in translation into English. For instance, "eeym Ya`qov" means "the mother OF Jacob," and "bat Yerushalayim" means "a daughter OF Jerusalem." Thus, the second and subsequent nouns in the construct state are SUBORDINATE to the first noun! They do NOT have recognition in the sentence, except as adjectival (or adverbial) words! Which mother? The mother of Jacob! Which daughter? A daughter of Jerusalem! They do NOT participate directly in the action of the sentence! Thus, they are NOT the subject for the verbs of that sentence or even a following sentence if the verb still refers to the same gender and number of the previous sentence's subject!

Let's use 2 Kings 25:8-9 for an example:

8 Uwvachodesh hachamiyshiy b-shiv`aah lachodesh hiy' shnat tsha` shaanaah lamelekh Nvukhadne'tsar melekh Baavel baa' Nvuwzar'adaan rav-Tabaachiym `eved melekh Baavel Y'ruwshaalaaim:
9 Vayisrof et-beeyt-YHWH v'et-beeyt hamelekh v'eet kaal-baateey Y'ruwshaalaim v'et-kaal-beeyt gaadowl saaraf baa'eesh:

Literally, it means...

8 And-in-month the-fifth in-seventh for-month which year of-nineteenth-year for-king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came Nebuzar-adaan captain-of-guards a-servant of-king of-Bavel to-Jerusalem:
9 And-he-burnt house-of-YHWH and house of-the-king and all-houses of-Jerusalem and-every-house great he-burnt in-fire.

Here we have a similar sentence structure. Nvuwzar'adaan, one of Nvukhadne'tsar's generals (a captain of guards) is said to be a servant of-king (of-Bavel). However, the "he" found in translation of verse 9's first word, "Vayisrof," is NOT associated with the "king of Bavel" but with that "servant!" Nobody questions who the antecedent of the "he" is!

It's the same sentence structure in Dani'el 9:26-27:

26 V'achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v'eeyn low v-haa`iyr v-haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa' v-qitsow basheTef v`ad qeets milchaamaah necheretset shomeemowt:
27 V-higbiyr briyt laarabiym shaavuwa` echaad ...

Literally,

26 And-after the-sevens sixty and-two shall-be-cut-off Messiah and-not for-himself and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people of-prince that-shall-come and-end with-a-flood and-to an-end of-the-war are-determined desolations:
27 And-he-shall-make-strong a-covenant with-many seven one ...

And yet, HERE, one has to question who is the "he?!" It CANNOT be the "prince!" It MUST refer back to the subject of the previous sentence, "Messiah!"

teleiosis said:

The destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70 merely fulfills Jesus' prophecy made before He gave the Olivet Discourse and it fulfills Dan 9:26 - which points out to us from whom the final anti-Christ will come - that "sea" of peoples = Europe.

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No. The "people of the prince that shall come" were the Romans, and the "prince that shall come" was Titus. The destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70 was also fulfilling Yeshua`s prophecy IN the Olivet Discourse as well!

teleiosis said:

The language of Daniel involving the abomination (of) desolation is slightly different in each case. Dan 11:31 is a specific abomination with the prefix "ha-" which acts like our article of speech: "the." It goes back to Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the second century B.C. He is the template in Daniel for the final anti-Christ of the end-times. He serves as the jumping off place for end-time events in Dan 11:31, or in other words, he acts as the lens for "dual focus" which allows the shift from Daniel's near-term to the far-term future. Dan 12:11 is a generic rendering of the Hebrew nouns without prefix or suffix. Dan 9:27 though, has the abomination in plural, showing how many - or how terrible (opposite of great for negative things/people) - it is. Desolation, like Dan 11:31 has the prefix "me-" which makes it a noun. Dan 9:27 can be rendered: "a desolator of abominations."

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Sorry, but here I have to disagree with you. You don't know what you're talking about when referring to the "m-" prefix. The "m-" prefix, short for "min," is sometimes an INSEPARABLE PREPOSITION, the preposition "FROM." Thus, "miyrushalaaim," sometimes transliterated as "m-Yrushalaaim" is the combination of "m-" and "Yerushalaaim" meaning "from Jerusalem." The combination of the "m-" and "shomeem" can mean "from desolation."

HOWEVER, another thought is that when one wishes to make a participle out of a verb in both the pi`eel and the pu`al patterns, they must always begin with an "m-." Thus, it can also mean "he shall be desolating [it]," which is why it was rendered, "he shall make it desolate."

teleiosis said:

The point is: the midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:24-27 is what is depicted in Mt 24:15. There was no setting up in the Temple by Titus; I've read Josepheus - nothing like what the anti-Christ will do was ever done in the sacking of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple. Titus did not stand in the Holy of Holies. He did not proclaim himself to be God.

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I agree with you that the "midpoint abomination of Dani'el 9:24-27 is what is depicted in Matthew 24:15. However,because you were EXPECTING to find (or rather NOT to find) Titus (or an idol erected by Titus) standing in the Holy of Holies, is why you MISSED the fulfillment!

In this particular case, quit looking for a concrete thing or person and look for an abstract concept, instead! You will find that the humiliation WAS erected in the temple!

teleiosis said:

Likewise: Luke 21 is a multiple account of Mt 24, and the events it described did not happen in Jesus' immediate future. They were not fulfilled in the fourth decade after Jesus' Resurrection; they are still to be fulfilled along with prohpecy in 2Th 2, and Rev 13:14-15.

The matter of abomination runs throughout the Bible; it is used for more than one thing. However, in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus refers us back to Daniel and by use of the specific and unique 'abomination of desolation,' we can go directly to one of the three times Daniel uses that phrase. You can point to all kinds of abomination, but that still does not mean this was accomplished in the past. Preterism remains, in my humble opinion, the worst possible eschatology and it stis right next to Amillennialism.

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Now, you're just looking for an excuse to divorce Luke 21 from Matthew 24 and Mark 13. Sorry, you can't do that. They ALL THREE are not only called the "Olivet Discourse," but it can be shown from the Greek that ALL THREE relate to the same events in history and in the future unfolding of history! Indeed, one will find the EXACT SAME PASSAGES in all three accounts! They ARE simply different versions of the same discourse!

I understand your aversion to preterism, but that is FULL preterism. Partial preterism is just being honest about the portions of the Olivet Discourse that WERE fulfilled in the past while recognizing that NOT EVERYTHING was fulfilled in the past! Just read the three accounts in Greek, will you? You will find that they are quite similar, right down the the EXACT SAME WORDS in many places!

Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:

Obviously you don't understand about prophetic patterns in God's Word. Or subconsciously you do, but it's just not gotten to your subjective mind yet. Afterall, there's a reason why the Isaiah 21 phrase "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" is repeated in Revelation again because of the old Babylon pattern fitting events for the end. Same thing with the "abomination of desolation" prophecy which Jesus quoted AFTER... Antiochus had been dead for around 190 years. Same thing happens with the "day of the Lord" phrase, and God's consuming fire idea, and the Malachi 4 prophecy about Elijah coming prior to the end.

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Now, let's get back to this little "gem." I understand THIS: I understand from Scripture that each prophecy must have its ONE AND ONLY fulfillment in order for that prophecy to be meaningful and testable. It is WRONG to think that a detailed prophecy could have more than one fulfillment! The ONLY exception to this is if the details of the prophecy can be broken up in human history as the prophecy unfolds. THEN AND ONLY THEN, a part of the prophecy could be already fulfilled in the past while other parts of the prophecy are left to be fulfilled in the future. THAT'S IT! If a "prophecy" can have multiple "fulfillments," then it's really a PRINCIPLE, a RULE, or a LAW that governs God's response to human failure and is NOT a prophecy AT ALL!

The only "pattern" to prophecies is that people sin and that God (a.) warns people of the consequences of sin, (b.) trains people not to sin, and (c.) provides for the Solution to that sin.

Next, let's look at the phrase "Babylon is fallen, is fallen." How many times can a person fall? Many times, right? As long as the person can get up again, he can fall again. It would only be if a prophecy said, "The man will fall and never be able to get up again," that one may conclude a termination, his death. It's true for a people, too. If a country, a government of a particular people, falls, it could yet fall again if it is able to get back up again. ONLY if a prophecy says that "a country will fall NEVER to get up again" will that country be terminated.

How many times has the city-state of Bavel risen and fallen? Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia's entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon:

Name
The Greek form Babylon (Βαβυλών) is an adaptation of Akkadian Babili. The Babylonian name as it stood in the 1st millennium BC had been changed from an earlier Babilli in early 2nd millennium BC, meaning "Gate of God" or "Gateway of the God" (bāb-ili) by popular etymology.[sup][2][/sup] The earlier name Babilla appears to be an adaptation of a non-Semitic source of unknown origin or meaning.[sup][3][/sup]

In the Hebrew Bible, the name appears as בָּבֶל (Babel; Tiberian בָּבֶל Bavel; Syriac ܒܒܠ Bāwēl), interpreted in the Book of Genesis (11:9) to mean "confusion" (viz. of languages), from the verb בלבל bilbél, "to confuse".

History

An indication of Babylon's early existence may be a later tablet describing the reign of Sargon of Akkad (ca. 23rd century BC short chronology). The so-called "Weidner Chronicle" states that it was Sargon himself who built Babylon "in front of Akkad" (ABC 19:51). Another later chronicle likewise states that Sargon "dug up the dirt of the pit of Babylon, and made a counterpart of Babylon next to Agade". (ABC 20:18–19). Van de Mieroop has suggested that those sources may refer to the much later Sargon II of the Neo-Assyrian Empire rather than Sargon of Akkad.[sup][4][/sup]
Some scholars, including linguist I.J. Gelb, have suggested that the name Babil is an echo of an earlier city name. Herzfeld wrote about Bawer in Iran, which was allegedly founded by Jamshid; the name Babil could be an echo of Bawer. David Rohl holds that the original Babylon is to be identified with Eridu. The Bible in Genesis 10 indicates that Nimrod was the original founder of Babel (Babylon). Joan Oates claims in her book Babylon that the rendering "Gateway of the gods" is no longer accepted by modern scholars.
By around the 19th century BC, much of Mesopotamia was occupied by Amorites, nomadic tribes from the west who were Semitic speakers like the Akkadians of Babylonia and Assyria, but at first did not practice agriculture like them, preferring to herd sheep. Over time, Amorite grain merchants rose to prominence and established their own independent dynasties in several Mesopotamian city-states, most notably Isin, Larsa and Babylon.

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So, one has Nimrod's Bavel, Sargon's Bavel, and the Neo-Babylonian Empire of Nebuchadnezzar. Add to that Saddam Husein's attempt to rebuild Bavel for himself (which may yet be completed for someone else), and it is certainly possible that the Babylon of Revelation will be the ACTUAL Babylon restored in the future!

As far as Dani'el's prophecies are concerned, it's unfortunate that the same two root words were used for Dan. 9:27 AND for 11:31 and 12:11. This is what throws people for a loop. It is also unfortunate that the translation of Yeshua`s Olivet Discourse into Greek looks more like the phrase in 11:31 and 12:11 than in 9:27. HOWEVER, they are SEPARATE! Dan. 9:27 was referred to by Yeshua` in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 (both corresponding to Luke 21:20). Dan. 11:31 and Dan. 12:11 both refer to the history of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and Judas Maccabees. However, neither touches the other! There is a WALL between them!

Dan. 9:27; Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20 || Dan. 11:31, Dan. 12:11, 1 Maccabees 1:20-24, 2 Maccabees 5:11-27

And, that WALL is a gap of, as you say, about 190 years! What Dani'el wrote about Antiochus in his future and in our past was fulfilled. What Dani'el wrote about the Messiah in his future and partially in our past and yet in our future as well has only been PARTIALLY fulfilled! Nevertheless, the portion of the prophecy in Dani'el 9:27 about "the abominations spreading out like a wing leading to desolation" has ALREADY HAPPENED! That happened in 70 A.D. Furthermore, the desolation CONTINUES TODAY and WILL CONTINUE until the sun, moon, and stars event that Yeshua` talked about.

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, veteran.

Now, let's get back to this little "gem." I understand THIS: I understand from Scripture that each prophecy must have its ONE AND ONLY fulfillment in order for that prophecy to be meaningful and testable. It is WRONG to think that a detailed prophecy could have more than one fulfillment! The ONLY exception to this is if the details of the prophecy can be broken up in human history as the prophecy unfolds. THEN AND ONLY THEN, a part of the prophecy could be already fulfilled in the past while other parts of the prophecy are left to be fulfilled in the future. THAT'S IT! If a "prophecy" can have multiple "fulfillments," then it's really a PRINCIPLE, a RULE, or a LAW that governs God's response to human failure and is NOT a prophecy AT ALL!

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No new thing under the sun, what has been shall be again, per Solomon, remember? God repeats Biblical patterns in His prophecies. Lot of truth to the old saying that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.


An example:

Matt 3:1-3
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His paths straight.
(KJV)

John the Baptist was declared as fulfilling the Isaiah 40 prophecy about one crying in the wilderness, prepare the way of The Lord. Jesus entered Jerusalem riding on an ass at His first coming per the Zech.9:9 prophecy.

Yet both John the Baptist and our Lord Jesus were rejected by those at Jerusalem. Thus the prophecy being meant to be fulfilled, was not fulfilled. The actual Isaiah 40 prophecy includes more parameters required for it to be fulfilled...

Isa 40:1-5
1 Comfort ye, comfort ye My people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.

Was Jerusalem's warfare accomplished when John the Baptist came to proclaim the next verse? No. So that's a parameter not yet fulfilled with this prophecy even to today.


3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

Was that part of the prophecy fulfilled by John the Baptist and our Lord Jesus at His first coming? Again no. That part about every valley being exalted and every mountain and hill being made low is to occur at Christ's 2nd coming in the near future. It's literal. It's about literal changes in the area of Jerusalem when Jesus returns with God's River and the tree of life established with the Millennium Sanctuary in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 40-47).


5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
(KJV)

Now just WHICH advent of our Lord Jesus Christ is that Isaiah 40:5 verse for? It's for BOTH advents of Christ, but moreso for His 2nd coming in context with the previous verse's parameters. So we see how with Christ's 1st coming, the Isaiah 40 did fulfill a pattern regarding Christ's coming to Jerusalem. Yet the actual parameters don't really line up because both John and our Lord Jesus were rejected and killed. IF Christ Jesus had been accepted by Jerusalem at His first coming, THEN John the Baptist would have fulfilled this Isaiah 40 section of prophecy. Yet the Isaiah 40 prophecy STILL served as a PATTERN at Christ's first coming. Thus this Isaiah 40 Scripture has a DUAL application. Absolute fulfillment sense with Christ's first coming no, but dual application yes.


So likewise with the events in 70 A.D. Jerusalem with the Roman army destroying Jerusalem and the temple. The events appear... to have fit Old Testament prophecy, but some very obvious parameters in the Daniel prophecy were not fulfilled, i.e., the specific "abomination of desolation" from Daniel. The Romans did NOT setup any abomination inside the temple in Jerusalem, for as per the Jewish historian Josephus, the temple caught fire inside and burned before the Romans could get control of it. And the Daniel abomination of desolation prophecy requires an abomination placed inside a standing temple in Jerusalem to be fulfilled. That did not happen in 70 A.D.

So the difference between what you're saying, and what I'm saying, is that you've been taught to think a prophecy fulfilled by circumstantial appearances, and not per the actual required parameters of the prophecy.

The only "pattern" to prophecies is that people sin and that God (a.) warns people of the consequences of sin, (b.) trains people not to sin, and (c.) provides for the Solution to that sin.

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that point is irrelevant to what we've been talking about.

Next, let's look at the phrase "Babylon is fallen, is fallen." How many times can a person fall? Many times, right? As long as the person can get up again, he can fall again. It would only be if a prophecy said, "The man will fall and never be able to get up again," that one may conclude a termination, his death. It's true for a people, too. If a country, a government of a particular people, falls, it could yet fall again if it is able to get back up again. ONLY if a prophecy says that "a country will fall NEVER to get up again" will that country be terminated.

Click to expand...

How many times has the city-state of Bavel risen and fallen? Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia's entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon:


So, one has Nimrod's Bavel, Sargon's Bavel, and the Neo-Babylonian Empire of Nebuchadnezzar. Add to that Saddam Husein's attempt to rebuild Bavel for himself (which may yet be completed for someone else), and it is certainly possible that the Babylon of Revelation will be the ACTUAL Babylon restored in the future!

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Amazing how you see all those old systems related to the idea of Babylon, yet cannot fathom how they establish a PATTERN per God's Word. With historical Babylon serving as a PATTERN for endtime Babylon, it has nothing to do with some idea that it must be exactly the same city or area. The point is, Christ used it as a symbol for an endtime structure related to the old ways... of historical Babylon! How is it you cannot see that?


Rev 14:8
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
(KJV)

Isa 21:9
9 And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.
(KJV)

Jer 51:7
7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
(KJV)

As far as Dani'el's prophecies are concerned, it's unfortunate that the same two root words were used for Dan. 9:27 AND for 11:31 and 12:11. This is what throws people for a loop. It is also unfortunate that the translation of Yeshua`s Olivet Discourse into Greek looks more like the phrase in 11:31 and 12:11 than in 9:27. HOWEVER, they are SEPARATE! Dan. 9:27 was referred to by Yeshua` in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 (both corresponding to Luke 21:20). Dan. 11:31 and Dan. 12:11 both refer to the history of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and Judas Maccabees. However, neither touches the other! There is a WALL between them!

Click to expand...

Dan. 9:27; Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20 || Dan. 11:31, Dan. 12:11, 1 Maccabees 1:20-24, 2 Maccabees 5:11-27

And, that WALL is a gap of, as you say, about 190 years! What Dani'el wrote about Antiochus in his future and in our past was fulfilled. What Dani'el wrote about the Messiah in his future and partially in our past and yet in our future as well has only been PARTIALLY fulfilled! Nevertheless, the portion of the prophecy in Dani'el 9:27 about "the abominations spreading out like a wing leading to desolation" has ALREADY HAPPENED! That happened in 70 A.D. Furthermore, the desolation CONTINUES TODAY and WILL CONTINUE until the sun, moon, and stars event that Yeshua` talked about.

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That argument is old hat by now. The Daniel prophecy of the setting up of an abomination idol to replace the daily sacrifice is very plain and easy to understand...

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

Dan 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(KJV)

Ezek 8:3-5
3 And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.
4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain.
5 Then said He unto me, "Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north." So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry.
(KJV)


Rev 13:14-15
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
(KJV)



Some kind of agenda of men you've latched onto is preventing you from seeing this.

Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:

No new thing under the sun, what has been shall be again, per Solomon, remember? God repeats Biblical patterns in His prophecies. Lot of truth to the old saying that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

An example:

Matt 3:1-3
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His paths straight.
(KJV)

John the Baptist was declared as fulfilling the Isaiah 40 prophecy about one crying in the wilderness, prepare the way of The Lord. Jesus entered Jerusalem riding on an ass at His first coming per the Zech.9:9 prophecy.

Yet both John the Baptist and our Lord Jesus were rejected by those at Jerusalem. Thus the prophecy being meant to be fulfilled, was not fulfilled. The actual Isaiah 40 prophecy includes more parameters required for it to be fulfilled...

Isa 40:1-5
1 Comfort ye, comfort ye My people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.

Was Jerusalem's warfare accomplished when John the Baptist came to proclaim the next verse? No. So that's a parameter not yet fulfilled with this prophecy even to today.

3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

Was that part of the prophecy fulfilled by John the Baptist and our Lord Jesus at His first coming? Again no. That part about every valley being exalted and every mountain and hill being made low is to occur at Christ's 2nd coming in the near future. It's literal. It's about literal changes in the area of Jerusalem when Jesus returns with God's River and the tree of life established with the Millennium Sanctuary in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 40-47).

5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
(KJV)

Now just WHICH advent of our Lord Jesus Christ is that Isaiah 40:5 verse for? It's for BOTH advents of Christ, but moreso for His 2nd coming in context with the previous verse's parameters. So we see how with Christ's 1st coming, the Isaiah 40 did fulfill a pattern regarding Christ's coming to Jerusalem. Yet the actual parameters don't really line up because both John and our Lord Jesus were rejected and killed. IF Christ Jesus had been accepted by Jerusalem at His first coming, THEN John the Baptist would have fulfilled this Isaiah 40 section of prophecy. Yet the Isaiah 40 prophecy STILL served as a PATTERN at Christ's first coming. Thus this Isaiah 40 Scripture has a DUAL application. Absolute fulfillment sense with Christ's first coming no, but dual application yes.

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While I understand Shlomo said, "there is no new thing under the sun," I also remember that Rav Sha'uwl Paulos (Paul) said to Timotheos,...

2 Tim 4:1-4
4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
KJV

And, so have they done many times on many topics over the past 2000 years! I'm not "forgetting history"; I'm just not gullable, naive, or willing to be as the Athenians, always wanting some new thing to hear:

Acts 17:16-21
16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
KJV

I'm not ignorant of Yochanan's INTENDED ministry as the "one crying in the wilderness," but that just EMPHASIZES what I was saying! You're right that the WHOLE prophecy was for both advents; however, Yochanan fulfilled only PART of the prophecy and the rest will be fulfilled by him or another at Yeshua`s return! You were right when you said, "IF Christ Jesus had been accepted by Jerusalem at His first coming, THEN John the Baptist would have fulfilled this Isaiah 40 section of prophecy." That's a correct assessment, but that is how the prophecy was SPLIT! Yochanan fulfilled PART of the prophecy, but the rest remains to be fulfilled at a later date! There's no "pattern" involved here! Some of the prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, and some of it will be fulfilled whenever our Master returns!

veteran said:

So likewise with the events in 70 A.D. Jerusalem with the Roman army destroying Jerusalem and the temple. The events appear... to have fit Old Testament prophecy, but some very obvious parameters in the Daniel prophecy were not fulfilled, i.e., the specific "abomination of desolation" from Daniel. The Romans did NOT setup any abomination inside the temple in Jerusalem, for as per the Jewish historian Josephus, the temple caught fire inside and burned before the Romans could get control of it. And the Daniel abomination of desolation prophecy requires an abomination placed inside a standing temple in Jerusalem to be fulfilled. That did not happen in 70 A.D.

So the difference between what you're saying, and what I'm saying, is that you've been taught to think a prophecy fulfilled by circumstantial appearances, and not per the actual required parameters of the prophecy.

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Not at all. Remember this little diagram from above?

Dan. 9:27; Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20 || Dan. 11:31, Dan. 12:11, 1 Maccabees 1:20-24, 2 Maccabees 5:11-27

That double vertical line in the middle is that WALL that I was talking about! You've again crossed over the wall! We were talking about the left hand side when discussing what Yeshua` pointed out in His Olivet Discourse, but you're dipping into the right hand side when you said,...

"The Romans did NOT setup any abomination inside the temple in Jerusalem, for as per the Jewish historian Josephus, the temple caught fire inside and burned before the Romans could get control of it. And the Daniel abomination of desolation prophecy requires an abomination placed inside a standing temple in Jerusalem to be fulfilled. That did not happen in 70 A.D."

NONE of that is seen nor required by the Dani'el 9:27 prophecy on the left hand side! When you dip into the right hand side, you are dipping into FULFILLED prophecy! You're dipping into the prophecies of Antiochus IV Epiphanes! THOSE ARE OVER AND COMPLETED! THOSE PROPHECIES ARE FULFILLED!

Do you know WHY we don't hear much about Nachum (Nahum) or Ts'fanyahu (Zephaniah) in our pulpits? It's because they are FULFILLED PROPHECIES! Except for small portions of the prophecy that haven't been completely fulfilled and won't be until the Messiah reigns in Yerushalayim, they are COMPLETED PROPHECIES! That doesn't make them less valuable, for they are now PROOF that God fulfills His prophecies and fulfills them literally, but they don't give people the fascination about the future that other prophecies hold.

Dani'el 11 and 12 should hold the SAME VALUE! They should NOT be looked at as though they were unfulfilled nor should people be fascinated about them as though they speak of the future! When one does, he or she is misusing Scripture! He or she is BEING one of those teachers, having itching ears, turning away their ears from the truth, and turning unto fables!

veteran said:

Amazing how you see all those old systems related to the idea of Babylon, yet cannot fathom how they establish a PATTERN per God's Word.

Click to expand...

veteran said:

With historical Babylon serving as a PATTERN for endtime Babylon, it has nothing to do with some idea that it must be exactly the same city or area. The point is, Christ used it as a symbol for an endtime structure related to the old ways... of historical Babylon! How is it you cannot see that?


Rev 14:8
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
(KJV)

Isa 21:9
9 And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground.
(KJV)

Jer 51:7
7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
(KJV)

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It is simply because they do not HAVE a "pattern!"


Now, to my statement,

As far as Dani'el's prophecies are concerned, it's unfortunate that the same two root words were used for Dan. 9:27 AND for 11:31 and 12:11. This is what throws people for a loop. It is also unfortunate that the translation of Yeshua`s Olivet Discourse into Greek looks more like the phrase in 11:31 and 12:11 than in 9:27. HOWEVER, they are SEPARATE! Dan. 9:27 was referred to by Yeshua` in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 (both corresponding to Luke 21:20). Dan. 11:31 and Dan. 12:11 both refer to the history of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and Judas Maccabees. However, neither touches the other! There is a WALL between them!


Dan. 9:27; Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20|| Dan. 11:31, Dan. 12:11, 1 Maccabees 1:20-24, 2 Maccabees 5:11-27

And, that WALL is a gap of, as you say, about 190 years! What Dani'el wrote about Antiochus in his future and in our past was fulfilled. What Dani'el wrote about the Messiah in his future and partially in our past and yet in our future as well has only been PARTIALLY fulfilled! Nevertheless, the portion of the prophecy in Dani'el 9:27 about "the abominations spreading out like a wing leading to desolation" has ALREADY HAPPENED! That happened in 70 A.D. Furthermore, the desolation CONTINUES TODAY and WILL CONTINUE until the sun, moon, and stars event that Yeshua` talked about.

Click to expand...

to which you answered,

veteran said:

That argument is old hat by now. The Daniel prophecy of the setting up of an abomination idol to replace the daily sacrifice is very plain and easy to understand...

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veteran said:

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

Dan 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(KJV),

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only serves to PROVE that you aren't listening to me, either because you CHOOSE not to or because you still don't quite grasp what I'm saying! You're still DIPPING into FULFILLED PROPHECY when you refer to Dani'el 11:31 or Dani'el 12:11! THEY ARE NOT FOR OUR FUTURE!!!!

To me, having to say this to you over and over again without the slightest inkling of intelligent response is getting to be "old hat!"

veteran said:

Ezek 8:3-5
3 And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.
4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain.
5 Then said He unto me, "Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north." So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry.
(KJV)

Rev 13:14-15
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
(KJV)

Some kind of agenda of men you've latched onto is preventing you from seeing this.

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Perhaps, you're the one who has been carried off by some lame "agenda of men" in all this "antichrist" interpretation of Dani'el! I'm just trying to get you back to see the Scriptures as they were intended! I left these two passages of Scripture out of the discussion above because I'm not ignorant that there will be such an image set up in the future, and it will be the fulfillment of these two passages, but to link them to the Dani'el passages is WRONG because THROUGH the Dani'el passages, many have linked the passages of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 to these same passages in Ezeki'el and Revelation, PARTICULARLY in Revelation! Yeshua` was NOT talking about these passages! Don't you think that He MIGHT HAVE mentioned Ezeki'el, if He was? I mean, after all, He DID mention Dani'el!

NO! Yeshua`s mention of Dani'el was to reinforce His warning to the Jews of His day, particularly the believing Jews who were on that mountain with Him that day, of what they were to expect in a mere 40 years from then! He had JUST FINISHED "leaving them DESOLATE," as predicted in that SAME PASSAGE OF DANI'EL (Matt. 23:37-39)!

Do you have my point, yet? Can you hear (or read) what I'm saying (or typing)?

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, veteran.

While I understand Shlomo said, "there is no new thing under the sun," I also remember that Rav Sha'uwl Paulos (Paul) said to Timotheos,...

2 Tim 4:1-4
4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
KJV

And, so have they done many times on many topics over the past 2000 years! I'm not "forgetting history"; I'm just not gullable, naive, or willing to be as the Athenians, always wanting some new thing to hear:

Acts 17:16-21
16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
KJV

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Well that above usage for those Scriptures is completely off the point of discussion, and not applicable, since those at Athens were following pagan philosophy, and not God's Word like I've been doing.

I'm not ignorant of Yochanan's INTENDED ministry as the "one crying in the wilderness," but that just EMPHASIZES what I was saying! You're right that the WHOLE prophecy was for both advents; however, Yochanan fulfilled only PART of the prophecy and the rest will be fulfilled by him or another at Yeshua`s return! You were right when you said, "IF Christ Jesus had been accepted by Jerusalem at His first coming, THEN John the Baptist would have fulfilled this Isaiah 40 section of prophecy." That's a correct assessment, but that is how the prophecy was SPLIT! Yochanan fulfilled PART of the prophecy, but the rest remains to be fulfilled at a later date! There's no "pattern" involved here! Some of the prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, and some of it will be fulfilled whenever our Master returns!

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How deceived can you be man? If the Isaiah 40 prophecy included anything... about the ministry of John the Baptist at Christ's 1st coming, and it also includes events to occur at Christ's 2nd coming, how can you say that Scripture has no prophetic PATTERN?

It's likewise with the Malachi 4 prophecy about God's promise to send Elijah before the great and terrible "day of the Lord". Christ said John the Baptist came in the role of Elijah to fulfill the Malachi 4 prophecy, yet he was rejected. Will there be another coming in the role of Elijah prior to Christ's 2nd coming? Yes!

I think you're just having trouble admitting that you're wrong being against the idea of Biblical patterns in God's Word.

Not at all. Remember this little diagram from above?

Dan. 9:27; Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20 || Dan. 11:31, Dan. 12:11, 1 Maccabees 1:20-24, 2 Maccabees 5:11-27

That double vertical line in the middle is that WALL that I was talking about! You've again crossed over the wall! We were talking about the left hand side when discussing what Yeshua` pointed out in His Olivet Discourse, but you're dipping into the right hand side when you said,...

"The Romans did NOT setup any abomination inside the temple in Jerusalem, for as per the Jewish historian Josephus, the temple caught fire inside and burned before the Romans could get control of it. And the Daniel abomination of desolation prophecy requires an abomination placed inside a standing temple in Jerusalem to be fulfilled. That did not happen in 70 A.D."

NONE of that is seen nor required by the Dani'el 9:27 prophecy on the left hand side! When you dip into the right hand side, you are dipping into FULFILLED prophecy! You're dipping into the prophecies of Antiochus IV Epiphanes! THOSE ARE OVER AND COMPLETED! THOSE PROPHECIES ARE FULFILLED!

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You keep wanting to get off track with your exposition of Dan.9:27, but I'm not going to allow that. You reference the "abomination of desolation" event in the Dan.11 and Dan.12 Scripture, but do not actually recognize it, instead treating the idea to mean a 'destruction'... of Jerusalem, when that's NOT what the "abomination of desolation" from Daniel is even about! Try again.

Do you know WHY we don't hear much about Nachum (Nahum) or Ts'fanyahu (Zephaniah) in our pulpits? It's because they are FULFILLED PROPHECIES! Except for small portions of the prophecy that haven't been completely fulfilled and won't be until the Messiah reigns in Yerushalayim, they are COMPLETED PROPHECIES! That doesn't make them less valuable, for they are now PROOF that God fulfills His prophecies and fulfills them literally, but they don't give people the fascination about the future that other prophecies hold.

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The Minor Prophets have a whole lot... that's never been fulfilled to this day.

Dani'el 11 and 12 should hold the SAME VALUE! They should NOT be looked at as though they were unfulfilled nor should people be fascinated about them as though they speak of the future! When one does, he or she is misusing Scripture! He or she is BEING one of those teachers, having itching ears, turning away their ears from the truth, and turning unto fables!

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That's your way of denying exactly what the "abomination of desolation" is about per the Book of Daniel. That ploy doesn't work, as it is not about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

Dan 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(KJV)

It is simply because they do not HAVE a "pattern!"

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Dream on.

to which you answered,



only serves to PROVE that you aren't listening to me, either because you CHOOSE not to or because you still don't quite grasp what I'm saying! You're still DIPPING into FULFILLED PROPHECY when you refer to Dani'el 11:31 or Dani'el 12:11! THEY ARE NOT FOR OUR FUTURE!!!!

To me, having to say this to you over and over again without the slightest inkling of intelligent response is getting to be "old hat!"

Click to expand...

The "abomination of desolation" prophecy of an idol setup inside the temple in Jerusalem WAS NOT fulfilled history! Christ Jesus SPECIFICALLY gave that event in His Olivet Discourse WHICH IS ONLY ABOUT THE END OF DAYS, the 7 Signs of the end per the 7 Seals of Revelation 6!

So go aheady, TRY to say the "abomination of desolation" prophecy was fulfilled already by one Antiochus IV, called Epiphanese. He DIED long before Christ Jesus gave... the "abomination of desolation" warning in Matthew 24!

Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:

Well that above usage for those Scriptures is completely off the point of discussion, and not applicable, since those at Athens were following pagan philosophy, and not God's Word like I've been doing.

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You've been "following God's Word" like a drunk walks the white chalk line in a sobriety test! When you PURPOSELY look for some new doctrine to tickle your ears and give you some EXCUSE for abusing Scripture, particularly using a passage of Scripture misapplied to the wrong time period in human history, how in the world can you sit there and say you've been "following God's Word" without shame?!

veteran said:

How deceived can you be man? If the Isaiah 40 prophecy included anything... about the ministry of John the Baptist at Christ's 1st coming, and it also includes events to occur at Christ's 2nd coming, how can you say that Scripture has no prophetic PATTERN?

It's likewise with the Malachi 4 prophecy about God's promise to send Elijah before the great and terrible "day of the Lord". Christ said John the Baptist came in the role of Elijah to fulfill the Malachi 4 prophecy, yet he was rejected. Will there be another coming in the role of Elijah prior to Christ's 2nd coming? Yes!

I think you're just having trouble admitting that you're wrong being against the idea of Biblical patterns in God's Word.

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No, I just REJECT your EXCUSE of "Biblical patterns" for using a prophecy more than once in human history, which goes AGAINST how God said His prophecies would apply! IT IS WRONG TO MISAPPLY THE PROPHECY ABOUT ANTIOCHUS IV TO SOME "ANTICHRIST" IN THE FUTURE!

veteran said:

You keep wanting to get off track with your exposition of Dan.9:27, but I'm not going to allow that. You reference the "abomination of desolation" event in the Dan.11 and Dan.12 Scripture, but do not actually recognize it, instead treating the idea to mean a 'destruction'... of Jerusalem, when that's NOT what the "abomination of desolation" from Daniel is even about! Try again.

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WAKE UP, SOLDIER! REVEILLE IS BEING SOUNDED! I have NOT been "referencing the 'abomination of desolation' event in the Dan. 11 and Dan. 12 Scriptures!" I have ONLY been referring to Dani'el 9:24-27 for Yeshua`s usage in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14! It's YOU who has been dipping into the Dan. 11 and Dan. 12 scriptures as though they have to do with Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14! THEY DON'T! And, SHAME ON YOU for teaching others that they do!

veteran said:

The Minor Prophets have a whole lot... that's never been fulfilled to this day.



That's your way of denying exactly what the "abomination of desolation" is about per the Book of Daniel. That ploy doesn't work, as it is not about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

Dan 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(KJV)

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And, that is EXACTLY what happened in Antiochus' day! They set up an image of Jupiter in the Temple, and they sacrificed an unclean pig upon the Altar to defile them both! How is it that you do not yet know this or that these Scripture verses are talking about those days?! Sometimes, you remind me of an old Dilbert comic:

"My name is 'Moe,' but everybody calls me 'Ron.' I don't know why." Maybe it's because you continue to say things like...

veteran said:

Dream on.

The "abomination of desolation" prophecy of an idol set up inside the temple in Jerusalem WAS NOT fulfilled history! Christ Jesus SPECIFICALLY gave that event in His Olivet Discourse WHICH IS ONLY ABOUT THE END OF DAYS, the 7 Signs of the end per the 7 Seals of Revelation 6!

So go aheady, TRY to say the "abomination of desolation" prophecy was fulfilled already by one Antiochus IV, called Epiphanese. He DIED long before Christ Jesus gave... the "abomination of desolation" warning in Matthew 24!

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("Aheady?" "Epiphanese?" Careful with your spelling.) No kidding! And THAT is why neither Dan. 11 nor Dan. 12 is that to which Yeshua` was referring in the Olivet Discourse! That's why we KNOW that He was referring to Dan. 9:24-27!