Facts about the book of James

RichardBurger · Jul 10, 2012

I hope this is not taken the wrong way. It is not intended to offend anyone. These are my personal thoughts based on what the scriptures actually say and put in this study.
*
The old saying that James and Paul were teaching the same thing, or that the word “works” each used do not mean the same thing, just doesn’t get it for me. --- One must understand that Paul addressed his letters to the Gentile churches he founded. James wrote his letter to the Jews who were scattered over the other countries (James 1:1). James’ letter was not addressed to the same churches that Paul’s letters were addressed
*
The study:
*
Was James
still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?
*
James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)
*
FACT! No, he was not!　 ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.　
*
Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)
*
FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did.　 There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this.　 It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15.　 It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.
*
　
James writes:
22　 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23　 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 [sup] [/sup]You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
*
FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.
*
FACT!

What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.
*
In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. However, it was compatible with the law. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on the truth and is highly suspect.
*
Here are some more facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.
*
1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)
6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned.
*
Romans 4:1-7 Abraham Justified by Faith.
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
*
David Celebrates the Same Truth
*
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
NKJV
*
Now put aside you desire to say the above is not true and search the scriptures to see if the facts support James ideas of works.

Episkopos · Jul 10, 2012

RichardBurger said:
I hope this is not taken the wrong way. It is not intended to offend anyone. These are my personal thoughts based on what the scriptures actually say and put in this study.
*
The old saying that James and Paul were teaching the same thing, or that the word “works” each used do not mean the same thing, just doesn’t get it for me. --- One must understand that Paul addressed his letters to the Gentile churches he founded. James wrote his letter to the Jews who were scattered over the other countries (James 1:1). James’ letter was not addressed to the same churches that Paul’s letters were addressed
*
The study:
*
Was James
still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?
*
James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)
*
FACT! No, he was not!　 ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.　
*
Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)
*
FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did.　 There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this.　 It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15.　 It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.
*
　
James writes:
22　 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23　 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 [sup] [/sup]You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
*
FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.
*
FACT!

What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.
*
In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. However, it was compatible with the law. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on the truth and is highly suspect.
*
Here are some more facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.
*
1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)
6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned.
*
Romans 4:1-7 Abraham Justified by Faith.
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
*
David Celebrates the Same Truth
*
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
NKJV
*
Now put aside you desire to say the above is not true and search the scriptures to see if the facts support James ideas of works.

The Jews did not meet in different churches from the Gentiles. I think you may be influenced by the Messianic movement of today, and denominationalism in general. There was no such division in the time of the apostles. The book of James is for all Christians as there is no division between Jew and Gentile in Christ.

You are really missing the message of the bible to seek to bring a heresy (division) into the message of the gospel of Christ. Paul preached the gospel of Christ as well as James. I suggest you look at Phinehas who was also declared righteous by God and using the same language as He did for Abraham. Check it out.

Num 25:7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
Num 25:8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
Num 25:9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
Num 25:10 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 25:11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
Num 25:12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
Num 25:13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.

Now here is the kicker...

Psa 106:30 Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.
Psa 106:31 And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.

So using the bible to interpret itself we see that Phinehas was awarded an eternal righteousness for the act of slaying the offenders of God's law. We then can understand that God did likewise with Abraham KNOWING that he would do as He said. God IS God and can see what we will do. There is no evidence whatsoever (the opposite actually) that had Abraham NOT offered his only son that God would have yet counted him as righteous. The bible is clear that we are justified by our actions...one of these is to believe....but God decides which actions justify us...not us. So you can't make a biblical system of justfying oneself through a belief in God.

RichardBurger · Jul 10, 2012

Episkopos said:
The Jews did not meet in different churches from the Gentiles. I think you may be influenced by the Messianic movement of today, and denominationalism in general. There was no such division in the time of the apostles. The book of James is for all Christians as there is no division between Jew and Gentile in Christ.

You are really missing the message of the bible to seek to bring a heresy (division) into the message of the gospel of Christ. Paul preached the gospel of Christ as well as James. I suggest you look at Phinehas who was also declared righteous by God and using the same language as He did for Abraham. Check it out.

Num 25:7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
Num 25:8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
Num 25:9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
Num 25:10 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 25:11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
Num 25:12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
Num 25:13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.

Now here is the kicker...

Psa 106:30 Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.
Psa 106:31 And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.

So using the bible to interpret itself we see that Phinehas was awarded an eternal righteousness for the act of slaying the offenders of God's law. We then can understand that God did likewise with Abraham KNOWING that he would do as He said. God IS God and can see what we will do. There is no evidence whatsoever (the opposite actually) that had Abraham NOT offered his only son that God would have yet counted him as righteous. The bible is clear that we are justified by our actions...one of these is to believe....but God decides which actions justify us...not us. So you can't make a biblical system of justfying oneself through a belief in God.

Just the FACTS, just the FACTS! You just refuse to see the FACTS in the study that are plain to see. You made no comment on them. Paul wrote of Abraham and his faith. James wrote of Abraham and his works. But you will not see what is written in the study because you just don't want to. You just want to miss-direct it to something else and I am not going there.

Episkopos · Jul 11, 2012

RichardBurger said:
Just the FACTS, just the FACTS! You just refuse to see the FACTS in the study that are plain to see. You made no comment on them. Paul wrote of Abraham and his faith. James wrote of Abraham and his works. But you will not see what is written in the study because you just don't want to. You just want to miss-direct it to something else and I am not going there.

I know!

Ironically, Phinehas was awarded an eternal righteousness for putting to death those who were taking the grace thing too far in continuing in iniquity!!! Oh, the irony!!!

Butch5 · Jul 11, 2012

RichardBurger said:
I hope this is not taken the wrong way. It is not intended to offend anyone. These are my personal thoughts based on what the scriptures actually say and put in this study.
*
The old saying that James and Paul were teaching the same thing, or that the word “works” each used do not mean the same thing, just doesn’t get it for me. --- One must understand that Paul addressed his letters to the Gentile churches he founded. James wrote his letter to the Jews who were scattered over the other countries (James 1:1). James’ letter was not addressed to the same churches that Paul’s letters were addressed
*
The study:
*
Was James
still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?
*
James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)
*
FACT! No, he was not!　 ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.　
*
Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)
*
FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did.　 There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this.　 It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15.　 It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.
*
　
James writes:
22　 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23　 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
*
FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.
*
FACT!

What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.
*
In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. However, it was compatible with the law. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on the truth and is highly suspect.
*
Here are some more facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.
*
1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)
6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned.
*
Romans 4:1-7 Abraham Justified by Faith.
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
*
David Celebrates the Same Truth
*
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
NKJV
*
Now put aside you desire to say the above is not true and search the scriptures to see if the facts support James ideas of works.

Hi Richard,

I would suggest that you are misunderstanding Paul. James and Paul are not in disagreement at all. You reject James yet mauch of what he said can be found coming from the lips of Jesus also. Would you reject Jesus' words in favor of Paul? James said a man is justified by works, Jesus said,

[sup]28[/sup] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [sup]29[/sup] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Joh 5:1 KJV)

According to Jesus one's eternal destiny does depend on one's works. Paul also agrees with this,

the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

[sup]6[/sup] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

[sup]7[/sup] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

[sup]8[/sup] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

[sup]9[/sup] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; {Gentile: Gr. Greek}

[sup]10[/sup] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: {Gentile: Gr. Greek}

(Rom 2:5-10 KJV)

So, we see Jesus, James, and Paul all in agreement. I would be happy to discuss how to reconcile the statements from Paul that you've posted, but you'd have to put aside the conclusions you've already drawn.

RichardBurger · Jul 11, 2012

Butch5 said:
Hi Richard,

I would suggest that you are misunderstanding Paul. James and Paul are not in disagreement at all. You reject James yet mauch of what he said can be found coming from the lips of Jesus also. Would you reject Jesus' words in favor of Paul? James said a man is justified by works, Jesus said,

[sup]28[/sup] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [sup]29[/sup] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Joh 5:1 KJV)

According to Jesus one's eternal destiny does depend on one's works. Paul also agrees with this,

the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
[sup]6[/sup] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[sup]7[/sup] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
[sup]8[/sup] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[sup]9[/sup] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; {Gentile: Gr. Greek}
[sup]10[/sup] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: {Gentile: Gr. Greek}
(Rom 2:5-10 KJV)

So, we see Jesus, James, and Paul all in agreement. I would be happy to discuss how to reconcile the statements from Paul that you've posted, but you'd have to put aside the conclusions you've already drawn.

So I must put aside my conclusions and just focus on yours? Sorry, I started this thread and I will only discuss the FACTS "I" presented in it.

I dfisagree, Paul and James were under 2 dispensations. James under the law and Paul under grace.

I am not on here to argue as to whether James and Paul taught the same thing. I see the FACTS given in the O.P. establishing that James and Paul were certainly NOT teaching the same thing. Go back and read the FACTS. Talk about the FACTS that are clearly presented in the O.P. I don't want just opinions trying to place a smoke screen to dismiss the FACTS. The FACTS are the important items.

RichardBurger · Jul 14, 2012

I am not on here to argue as to whether James and Paul taught the same thing.

I see the FACTS given in the O.P. establishing that James and Paul were certainly NOT teaching the same thing.

Go back and read the FACTS. Talk about the FACTS that are clearly presented in the O.P.

I don't want just opinions trying to place a smoke screen to dismiss the FACTS. The FACTS are the important items.

I take it that no one can dispute the FACTS given in the O.P.

FACT! No, he was not!　 ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.　
*
FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did.　 There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this.　 It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15.　 It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.
*
FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the
Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.
*
FACT! What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

Episkopos · Jul 14, 2012

I guess to some..facts are the same thing as truth... :unsure:

seekandfind · Jul 15, 2012

Genesis Ch.15 is well into the story of Abram/Abraham.

In Genesis 12 God tells Abram to leave the land where he dwelt.

Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee:
Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

If Abram hadn't believed God and obeyed him, he wouldn't have left to begin with.

In Genesis 15, Abram's name hadn't yet been changed to Abraham.

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

It isn't until later as the story carries through, in Ch 17 That Abram's name is changed.

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Genesis 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Genesis 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
Genesis 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Genesis 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

The story of Abraham isn't confined to Genesis Ch. 15

RichardBurger · Jul 15, 2012

seekandfind said:
Genesis Ch.15 is well into the story of Abram/Abraham.

In Genesis 12 God tells Abram to leave the land where he dwelt.

Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee:
Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

If Abram hadn't believed God and obeyed him, he wouldn't have left to begin with.

In Genesis 15, Abram's name hadn't yet been changed to Abraham.

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

It isn't until later as the story carries through, in Ch 17 That Abram's name is changed.

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Genesis 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Genesis 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
Genesis 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Genesis 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

The story of Abraham isn't confined to Genesis Ch. 15

No one has said it was. But your reply said nothing about the FACTS in the O.P. so you are just trying to change the subject.

Rach1370 · Jul 15, 2012

Hi Richard. You have repeatedly stated you will not address anyone unless they answer your "facts"...so:

RichardBurger said:
The study:
*
Was James
still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?
*
James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)
*
FACT! No, he was not!　 ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.　

Ok, agreed. Abraham was seen as righteous beforehand. But we still must keep in mind that this occasion with Isaac was fairly significant....

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)
*
FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did.　 There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this.　 It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15.　 It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.
*

Again, agreed that Abraham was counted righteous for his faith. Paul stresses this very strongly. But James does not dismiss this...again we need to see what he is heading towards with his focus on Isaac...

　
James writes:
22　 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 　 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 [sup] [/sup]You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
*
FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

Why must we automatically assume that James is speaking of Genesis 15:4-6 specifically? That's a fairly small amount of scripture. I hope you are not basing all this on the premise that James is mistakenly focusing on this two verse section, rather than an overview of Abraham's life...which paints a wonderful picture of faith and obedience working together.

*
FACT!

What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.
*

Actually, I disagree. Again you are just presuming that both James and Paul have to be talking about that one small section of scripture. It's a pretty important part of scripture, which is why we see Paul focusing on it for his point. If indeed James is also focusing on this particular verse, than yes, I can see problems arising. But if not, then what we see is a beautiful harmony of a particular important moment in Abraham's life, followed by the broad view of God's covenant with Abraham in his life.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?...So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
(James 2:14,17-18 ESV)

When we look closely at the beginning of that James passage, we see where he is heading. Some people say they have faith, but if we don't have an outpouring of works...or fruit, to show our truly regenerated heart, then that faith is 'dead'...it's not real. He says that people who claim this unreal faith will try to show it by things apart from this fruit. They may be able to say all the right words, they may even do a darn good job at following some laws. But ultimately it is done by their own will, and not the empowering of the Holy Spirit. James says that people with a truly regenerate faith will be able to be seen for their works, which comes as an outpouring of their true faith.

So honestly, I see this passage holding hands with what Paul says quite happily. In fact I would say the reference to Abraham just backs that up. What Paul says is absolutely true, but if not careful it can be taken as licence to do whatever we want and live in whatever way we want. James' letter is the perfect companion to this and Abraham is the perfect example. He is justified by faith, yes. But with that comes a life of obedience. He's not perfect, which is another perfect example for us, of God's love, patience and forgiveness. But he still spends his whole life following God...his faith has an outpouring in his life, shown in that obedience...in his works, as you were.

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. However, it was compatible with the law. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on the truth and is highly suspect.
*
Here are some more facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.
*
1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)
6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned.
*

Yes, it is your opinion. And you know, that's ok. Everyone has their opinion and their right to it. But I do not think that you can pass it all of as indisputable fact.
Take the words above...yes...those may be 'factual'...but does it have any impingement on intent? No. Do a word study of all of scripture and you come up with some amazing things, but not many of them have an effect on the message. Jesus talks of hell more than anyone, but it doesn't mean those who believe in him are going there!

Romans 4:1-7 Abraham Justified by Faith.
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
*
David Celebrates the Same Truth
*
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
NKJV
*
Now put aside you desire to say the above is not true and search the scriptures to see if the facts support James ideas of works.

It's got nothing to do with 'desire'. It has everything to do with rationality. I see absolutely no evidence in scripture to support that there is 2 gospels. In fact, I find it interesting that Paul, in Romans, when talking of Abraham, says this:

What then can we say that Abraham, our physical ancestor, has found - Rom 4:1

Isn't Paul, according to you, only speaking to the Gentiles? Why on earth would Abraham be a physical ancestor of the Gentiles?

So yeah, it just doesn't add up for me. To me, the facts seem to line up for Paul and James complimenting each other. It fits with what the rest of scripture tells us of how a Christian is both saved, and yet should live.

RichardBurger · Jul 16, 2012

Rach said:
Hi Richard. You have repeatedly stated you will not address anyone unless they answer your "facts"...so:

Ok, agreed. Abraham was seen as righteous beforehand. But we still must keep in mind that this occasion with Isaac was fairly significant....

Again, agreed that Abraham was counted righteous for his faith. Paul stresses this very strongly. But James does not dismiss this...again we need to see what he is heading towards with his focus on Isaac...

Why must we automatically assume that James is speaking of Genesis 15:4-6 specifically? That's a fairly small amount of scripture. I hope you are not basing all this on the premise that James is mistakenly focusing on this two verse section, rather than an overview of Abraham's life...which paints a wonderful picture of faith and obedience working together.

Actually, I disagree. Again you are just presuming that both James and Paul have to be talking about that one small section of scripture. It's a pretty important part of scripture, which is why we see Paul focusing on it for his point. If indeed James is also focusing on this particular verse, than yes, I can see problems arising. But if not, then what we see is a beautiful harmony of a particular important moment in Abraham's life, followed by the broad view of God's covenant with Abraham in his life.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?...So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
(James 2:14,17-18 ESV)

When we look closely at the beginning of that James passage, we see where he is heading. Some people say they have faith, but if we don't have an outpouring of works...or fruit, to show our truly regenerated heart, then that faith is 'dead'...it's not real. He says that people who claim this unreal faith will try to show it by things apart from this fruit. They may be able to say all the right words, they may even do a darn good job at following some laws. But ultimately it is done by their own will, and not the empowering of the Holy Spirit. James says that people with a truly regenerate faith will be able to be seen for their works, which comes as an outpouring of their true faith.

So honestly, I see this passage holding hands with what Paul says quite happily. In fact I would say the reference to Abraham just backs that up. What Paul says is absolutely true, but if not careful it can be taken as licence to do whatever we want and live in whatever way we want. James' letter is the perfect companion to this and Abraham is the perfect example. He is justified by faith, yes. But with that comes a life of obedience. He's not perfect, which is another perfect example for us, of God's love, patience and forgiveness. But he still spends his whole life following God...his faith has an outpouring in his life, shown in that obedience...in his works, as you were.

Yes, it is your opinion. And you know, that's ok. Everyone has their opinion and their right to it. But I do not think that you can pass it all of as indisputable fact.
Take the words above...yes...those may be 'factual'...but does it have any impingement on intent? No. Do a word study of all of scripture and you come up with some amazing things, but not many of them have an effect on the message. Jesus talks of hell more than anyone, but it doesn't mean those who believe in him are going there!

It's got nothing to do with 'desire'. It has everything to do with rationality. I see absolutely no evidence in scripture to support that there is 2 gospels. In fact, I find it interesting that Paul, in Romans, when talking of Abraham, says this:

What then can we say that Abraham, our physical ancestor, has found - Rom 4:1

Isn't Paul, according to you, only speaking to the Gentiles? Why on earth would Abraham be a physical ancestor of the Gentiles?

So yeah, it just doesn't add up for me. To me, the facts seem to line up for Paul and James complimenting each other. It fits with what the rest of scripture tells us of how a Christian is both saved, and yet should live.

You said: "Actually, I disagree. Again you are just presuming that both James and Paul have to be talking about that one small section of scripture"

Actually, what I said was that Paul used Gen 15 for what he wrote and that James used Gen. 22 for what he wrote. In Gen. 15 Abraham was righteous before God by his belief (faith) that God would keep His promise. --- James used Gen. 22 to support the idea that Abraham was righteous before God because of what he (Abraham) did.

I am amazied how the religious will not let the FACTS speak for the truth. Actually they rationalize that because they believe both Paul and James were speaking the same gospel they must make the truth into a lie.

jiggyfly · Jul 16, 2012

RichardBurger said:
I hope this is not taken the wrong way. It is not intended to offend anyone. These are my personal thoughts based on what the scriptures actually say and put in this study.
*
The old saying that James and Paul were teaching the same thing, or that the word “works” each used do not mean the same thing, just doesn’t get it for me. --- One must understand that Paul addressed his letters to the Gentile churches he founded. James wrote his letter to the Jews who were scattered over the other countries (James 1:1). James’ letter was not addressed to the same churches that Paul’s letters were addressed
*
The study:
*
Was James
still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?
*
James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)
*
FACT! No, he was not!　 ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.　
*
Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)
*
FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did.　 There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this.　 It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15.　 It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.
*
　
James writes:
22　 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23　 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 [sup] [/sup]You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
*
FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.
*
FACT!

What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.
*
In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. However, it was compatible with the law. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on the truth and is highly suspect.
*
Here are some more facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.
*
1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)
6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned.
*
Romans 4:1-7 Abraham Justified by Faith.
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
*
David Celebrates the Same Truth
*
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
NKJV
*
Now put aside you desire to say the above is not true and search the scriptures to see if the facts support James ideas of works.

I think I understand your points and I too see the conflict. But I think to make comparisons between the writings of Paul and of James using an error ridden translation like the KJV will only result in more error. In order to state the facts, Richard, you should use more a accurate translation.

Rach1370 · Jul 16, 2012

RichardBurger said:
You said: "Actually, I disagree. Again you are just presuming that both James and Paul have to be talking about that one small section of scripture"

Actually, what I said was that Paul used Gen 15 for what he wrote and that James used Gen. 22 for what he wrote. In Gen. 15 Abraham was righteous before God by his belief (faith) that God would keep His promise. --- James used Gen. 22 to support the idea that Abraham was righteous before God because of what he (Abraham) did.

I am amazied how the religious will not let the FACTS speak for the truth. Actually they rationalize that because they believe both Paul and James were speaking the same gospel they must make the truth into a lie.

Actually, my point remains the same...as my point was that they weren't speaking of the same moment in Abraham's life. I suppose the question remains, why are you so persistently saying that "two different things can't be the same!".....do you see the problem with that whole idea? Of course two different things aren't going to be the same...otherwise they wouldn't be called 'different'. The whole picture that I am supporting is not that hard to comprehend. Lets for a moment pretend I'm speaking about my daughter. I say 'she went to a maths tutor the other day, and I don't know what he told her, but she suddenly says she gets it!'....There is a truth...she is given something of value, she suddenly understands something. If I then say a few weeks later that she totally blitzed a maths exam, I am not saying that that special understanding is moot. In fact, I'm saying that her 'understanding' is realized in her work....it has been proved!
Paul uses Gen 15 to say Abraham was saved by faith. We know this to be true...we are saved by faith. James uses Gen 22 to show that Abraham's faith is shown by his obedience...his works. This was James' whole point. Faith that does not show an outpouring, is not true faith. There must be a true change in heart, which is shown in actions, or the regeneration is not real. This is a crucial argument against those who would use the gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone for licentiousness. Now, I'm in no way saying that Paul argues for licentiousness, but just as some people will 'use' James to head towards works based salvation, so too will people 'use' Paul's message to justify any kind of sinful life they want. It's the two working in harmony that brings to life the wonder of the gospel.

My problem here, and just in general, really, is that you are still pushing this whole '2 gospels' thing. You can call me a liar...oh wait, you already did. You can say I'm ignoring 'fact'...which is only mistaken belief on your part. But the simple 'fact' is this: Jesus preached Himself as the only way...so did Paul. Jesus preached that salvation was only by His work...so did Paul. Now those 'facts' can actually be backed up by scripture. I have absolutely no need to resort to calling you a liar...don't need to, don't want to. I have no need or want to catalogue how many times Paul used a certain word, or what word Jesus used, to back up my claim...all of scripture points to my claim....Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. It was the gospel preached by God himself to Eve, it was the gospel David looked forward to with longing and faith, it was the gospel Jesus himself preached, and it most certainly was a gospel Paul preached. It's the same gospel that everyone, everywhere today needs, and the only one that will see us right with God.

Here's the thing Richard....clearly you have a one track mind. You are focused on this two gospel thing, and you know, it's your right to do so. But when you start thread after thread on the same topic, and then think you can be king over how people respond, and accuse people who disagree with you of being liars and religious uptights....well; here's the deal. This is a forum. It's a debate forum. Everyone here has the right to respond as they choose (within board rule reason). What you really need, is a blog. There you can say what you want, preach what you want and kick out those who disagree. But please do remember that as long as you are posting here, you do not get to launch into accusation mode just because someone hasn't answered your questions in the exact manner you demand.

RichardBurger · Jul 16, 2012

jiggyfly said:
I think I understand your points and I too see the conflict. But I think to make comparisons between the writings of Paul and of James using an error ridden translation like the KJV will only result in more error. In order to state the facts, Richard, you should use more a accurate translation.

So it is the translater's fault that Paul used Gen.15 to support salvation by faith (believing God) only and James used Gen. 22 to support a works based religion.

Man will always harden his/her heart to the truth of God.

Rach said:
Here's the thing Richard....clearly you have a one track mind. You are focused on this two gospel thing, and you know, it's your right to do so. But when you start thread after thread on the same topic, and then think you can be king over how people respond, and accuse people who disagree with you of being liars and religious uptights....well; here's the deal. This is a forum. It's a debate forum. Everyone here has the right to respond as they choose (within board rule reason). What you really need, is a blog. There you can say what you want, preach what you want and kick out those who disagree. But please do remember that as long as you are posting here, you do not get to launch into accusation mode just because someone hasn't answered your questions in the exact manner you demand.

You said: “My problem here, and just in general, really, is that you are still pushing this whole '2 gospels' thing. You can call me a liar...oh wait, you already did. You can say I'm ignoring 'fact'...which is only mistaken belief on your part. But the simple 'fact' is this: Jesus preached Himself as the only way...so did Paul. Jesus preached that salvation was only by His work...so did Paul. Now those 'facts' can actually be backed up by scripture. I have absolutely no need to resort to calling you a liar...don't need to, don't want to.
*
My comment: But you are calling me a liar too aren’t you? Are you overlooking the fact that you are saying what I believe is not right and is a lie?
*
Here's the thing Richard....clearly you have a one track mind. You are focused on this two gospel thing, and you know, it's your right to do so.
*
My comment: Aren’t you focusing on the single gospel thing? Why ridicule me for doing the same thing you are doing?
*
But when you start thread after thread on the same topic, and then think you can be king over how people respond, and accuse people who disagree with you of being liars and religious uptights.
*
My comment: I don’t think I have accused you of anything directly. If you feel I have it must be that what I said impacted you. If you can see it, you are accusing me of being a lair because what I write, to you, is not the truth.
*
...well; here's the deal. This is a forum. It's a debate forum. Everyone here has the right to respond as they choose (within board rule reason).
*
My comment: Obviously not. You are on this thread telling me how I am to use this forum.
*
But please do remember that as long as you are posting here, you do not get to launch into accusation mode just because someone hasn't answered your questions in the exact manner you demand.
*
I am not here to get along in order to get along. I post what I see in the scriptures but some, and I guess you are included, do not wish for me to do so. You, and they, wish to silence what I write.
*
I sate that I believe the scriptures and other do too. But who actually believes them? Those that ignore them, those that rationalize that they don’t mean what they say or those that actually believe what they say. -- Oh I get it, I am using the wrong translation.
*
FACT: The scripture says that the gospel given to Paul WAS HIDDEN IN GOD and revealed to him. -- If you do not believe what is says you do not believe the scriptures.
*
FACT: The scripture says that Paul was the first to be saved under the gospel of grace and that he (Paul) was the pattern for all those that would come after him.-- If you do not believe what is says you do not believe the scriptures.
*
FACT: James 1:1 says that what he (James) wrote was to the Jews. -- If you do not believe what is says you do not believe the scriptures.
*
FACT: In Gen.15 Abraham was called righteous before God just because he believed God’s word.
*
FACT: When James used Gen.22 to establish works it did not do away with Gen.15.
*
FACT: Nowhere in M.M.L.J. and the first 9 chapters of Acts do we see Jesus and the 12 say that justification before God was by faith and not by the works of the Law. Jesus and the 12 never rescinded the Law of Moses.
*
FACT: The gospel of grace that was given to Paul did away with the law as justification before God. Under grace we are justified by our faith in the promise of God contained in the gospel of grace that was given to Paul, FOR US. WE are justified by faith in the work of God on the cross.
*
FACT: The reason most do not like what I write is that they can not accept a salvation that they can not control. They are like the man who refused to wear the wedding garment given by the host in the Wedding Parable. He refused the gift from the host and wanted to be accepted in what he wore instead of what the host wanted him to wear.
*
But I am sure that all this will make you even more want to get rid of me.
*
John 7:12-13
2 And there was much complaining among the people concerning Him. Some said, "He is good"; others said, "No, on the contrary, He deceives the people."
13 However, no one spoke openly of Him for fear of the Jews.
NKJV

If you wish have me thrown off the forum. It will be my notice, from God, that I am no longer required to preach the gospel of Grace to those who will not hear it.

7angels · Jul 16, 2012

richard

if you are correct in your beliefs then tell me a few things. first, how often are your prays answered? how often does the supernatural occur within your life? when was the last time something supernatural happened to you? how often do you hear the voice of God?

these should be enough question for now

God bless

jiggyfly · Jul 16, 2012

RichardBurger said:
So it is the translater's fault that Paul used Gen.15 to support salvation by faith (believing God) only and James used Gen. 22 to support a works based religion.

Not at all, but the KJV translation does add to the conflicts you have pointed out between Paul's writings and James' writings. The earlier suggestion of using more accurate translations would might help in making your case more clear and credible.

Man will always harden his/her heart to the truth of God.

Surely your not suggesting that the KJV is the inerrant truth of God.

RichardBurger · Jul 16, 2012

7angels said:
richard

if you are correct in your beliefs then tell me a few things. first, how often are your prays answered? how often does the supernatural occur within your life? when was the last time something supernatural happened to you? how often do you hear the voice of God?

these should be enough question for now

God bless

Are you fishing for something to dis-credit me with? I think you are and your questions are personal. I have not asked you personal questions have I.

What I will say is that I do not need physical things to tell me of the presence of the Holy Spirit. Paul said I am sealed with the Holy Spirit and since I believe the word of God I believe him. -- Do you?

jiggyfly said:
Not at all, but the KJV translation does add to the conflicts you have pointed out between Paul's writings and James' writings. The earlier suggestion of using more accurate translations would might help in making your case more clear and credible.

Surely your not suggesting that the KJV is the inerrant truth of God.

If it isn't then what do you place your faith in? I believe that God, the Holy Spirit, reveals the truth in the word of God to the believer. Who reveals it to you?

7angels · Jul 16, 2012

RichardBurger said:
Are you fishing for something to dis-credit me with? I think you are and your questions are personal. I have not asked you personal questions have I.

What I will say is that I do not need physical things to tell me of the presence of the Holy Spirit. Paul said I am sealed with the Holy Spirit and since I believe the word of God I believe him. -- Do you?

richard

i just wanted to know where you are spiritually in your walk with the Lord. the word teaches we are to glory in our weaknesses not in our strengths. the word also teaches we are to have the supernatural confirm that God's words are true. this supernatural confirmation is what is supposed to show others that what we say is true. if you have nothing going on supernaturally within your life then you need to be searching your heart and praying for God to reveal what is wrong. without the supernatural to confirm our words then all christians are is another religious theology no different from atheism or anything else. how are we to preach healing or anything else when we don't even have in in our own life? that equates to being a hypocrite. searching for true is all well and good but it is supposed to be the supernatural that draws people to God.

that richard is why i was asking you how much of it is going on within your lifestyle. i was not trying to dupe you into anything.

God bless

RichardBurger · Jul 16, 2012

7angels said:
richard

i just wanted to know where you are spiritually in your walk with the Lord. the word teaches we are to glory in our weaknesses not in our strengths. the word also teaches we are to have the supernatural confirm that God's words are true. this supernatural confirmation is what is supposed to show others that what we say is true. if you have nothing going on supernaturally within your life then you need to be searching your heart and praying for God to reveal what is wrong. without the supernatural to confirm our words then all christians are is another religious theology no different from atheism or anything else. how are we to preach healing or anything else when we don't even have in in our own life? that equates to being a hypocrite. searching for true is all well and good but it is supposed to be the supernatural that draws people to God.

that richard is why i was asking you how much of it is going on within your lifestyle. i was not trying to dupe you into anything.

God bless

You have placed yourself in the same group as the Pharisees below. I didn't do it, you did.

I will let scripture speak to you:

Matthew 12:38-40
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."
39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
NKJV

Mark 8:11-12
11 Then the Pharisees came out and began to dispute with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, testing Him.
12 But He sighed deeply in His spirit, and said, "Why does this generation seek a sign? Assuredly, I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation."
NKJV

1 Corinthians 1:21-25
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
NKJV

Perhaps you wish for me to preach "tongues" or perhaps "picking up snakes". What I teach is the word of God in the scriptures. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to draw men and women to the truth. I am just a messager.

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