Facts about the book of James

RichardBurger said:

My comment: But you are calling me a liar too aren’t you? Are you overlooking the fact that you are saying what I believe is not right and is a lie?

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Uh, no...no I'm not calling you a liar. I believe that you believe what you're saying. That's why I said I disagreed with you, rather than calling you a liar....I don't believe you're lying. You, however, outright called me a liar. Which means you think that even though I am saying one thing, I really mean another...that's lying. Since I honestly believe what I'm saying, and really think the bible backs up my claim...I'm not lying. At all.

If you wish have me thrown off the forum. It will be my notice, from God, that I am no longer required to preach the gospel of Grace to those who will not hear it.

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I have no desire to get you 'thrown off'. It's not within my authority to point a finger and have someone booted. That's not how the admin team works. I don't even mind you having an agenda here...everyone does in one way or another. The thing I object to, and the thing that is within my authority to say, is that your response to people is unacceptable. You tell people you will only deign to answer them if they address you in the manner you deem worthy. When they do so, you are blunt, arrogant and accuse them of lying. To be perfectly honest, it seems you are more concerned with how you want to have things, rather than how the bible presents them. You are not even open to honest discussion about what others see within scripture. That's not debating, it tyranny.

Now, I'm all for preaching the gospel, and not straying from it's lines...but I honestly don't think your message is the good news Jesus, Peter and Paul were teaching. It doesn't matter which audience you are speaking about, if you are talking about a works based salvation, you are not preaching the gospel.

Perhaps you should think about this....if you should be booted off the board (and I have no reason to suppose you will be), maybe it's God giving you a different kind of message. All the admin here, and our statement of faith here, is orthodox Christian. Salvation by grace through faith alone....for all...Jew and Gentile alike. What you are doing by dividing '2' gospels, is putting up walls that Paul and Peter worked so hard to tear down in the NT. You are in fact advocating the renewal of the 'circumcision party'...where for Jews works are 'still' needed for salvation. Paul kills that thought dead in the water. That is why I disagree with you...not because I believe you to be a liar...I don't believe that...but because the bible refutes all you say in regards to 2 gospels.

The bible interprets us. Those who think they have the market cornered on bible interpretation are deceived. So a divisive person will interpret the bible in a way that divides the brethren. God Himself will separate the sheep from the goats...that is best left to Him.

RichardBurger said:

I will not continue your personal character study about me. I am not going to spend my efforts trying to convice you that you do the same things to me. What would be the result? You won't believe me. I will not to be the subject of a discussion. It takes away from the discussion about the scriptures.

Show me where Jesus, and Peter taught the gospel of grace. Did Jesus and the 12 tell the Jews they no longer had to keep the Law of Moses? Of course not! Did Jesus and Peter teach that a person is no longer under the law but under grace, that salvation is by faith in Jesus' work on the cross, that his shed blood reconciles men to God? No they didn't --- but Paul did. So how can they be teaching the same thing? Common sense tells us they were not teaching the same thing. But a person with a religous mind will never see it.

If you can't show me then accept the idea that the way God deals with mankind, today, changed and that means the gospel changed. It changed from law to grace. Paul's gospel of grace was not the same as that of Jesus and the 12. --- If you would see it, the gospel was that the kingdom was at hand and Jesus was the king but the Jews rejected Jesus as their king and God turned to the Gentiles with a message of salvation thru faith in Him only. Jesus, himself sent this message thru Paul who the very scriptures everyone says they believe was sent to the Gentiles with a new message from God. The scriptures tell us that this new message was HIDDEN IN GOD AND REVEALED TO PAUL FOR US. But the religious will never see the words "hidden in God and revealed to Paul" just because they refuse to see them.

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dogmatism 1. a statement of a point of view as if it were an established fact.
2. Arrogant, stubborn assertion of opinion or belief.

RichardBurger said:

So I must put aside my conclusions and just focus on yours? Sorry, I started this thread and I will only discuss the FACTS "I" presented in it.

I dfisagree, Paul and James were under 2 dispensations. James under the law and Paul under grace.

I am not on here to argue as to whether James and Paul taught the same thing. I see the FACTS given in the O.P. establishing that James and Paul were certainly NOT teaching the same thing. Go back and read the FACTS. Talk about the FACTS that are clearly presented in the O.P. I don't want just opinions trying to place a smoke screen to dismiss the FACTS. The FACTS are the important items.

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Richard, your conclusions aren't "FACTS". If you don't want to disucss evidence that goes against your conclusions that's fine, just let me know.

RichardBurger said:

You posted: dogmatism 1. a statement of a point of view as if it were an established fact. 2. Arrogant, stubborn assertion of opinion or belief.

You think that this applies to just me but it also applies to you. You are doing the same thing you are accusing me of doing but you are blind to what you do. You look into the mirror and see only what you wish to see.

Since you wish to continue this assault on my character let me say that all you did was to make an unfounded accusation that I said you are a liar. Unfounded because you have shown no evidence that I said it.

I challenge you to cut and paste where I said, directly to you, that you are a liar. You can cut and paste as well as I can so I challenge you to go back and prove your accusation by cutting and pasting where I called you, directly, a liar and be sure that you add the post # in which you cut it out of since, in context, it may not mean the same thing.

If you can not prove your accusation then you are baring false witness against me just as the Jews did to Jesus.



Okay then that means that all your conclusions are not facts either, doesn't it. Why should I accept what you say when they are just your conclusions. LOL

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Richard I posted a fact!!! Where's the rejoicing!!!!

RichardBurger said:

Okay then that means that all your conclusions are not facts either, doesn't it. Why should I accept what you say when they are just your conclusions. LOL

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I didn't say my conclusions were facts. However, to dismiss evidence from Scripture is an different matter.

RichardBurger said:

What you see as evidence in scriptures are not what I see.

Such arragance! You seem to be saying that my conclusions are not facts.Your saying that can only mean you think your conclusions are facts. You didn't say it directly but that is the indication. Since you will never see what I say as having any truth in it there is not much reason for me to discuss anything with you.

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That's a convenint way to avoid discussing things that present problems to your theology. Also, again, I didn't say my conclusions were facts. However, this is a fact,

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; [sup]6[/sup] Who will render to every man according to his deeds: [sup]7[/sup] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: [sup]8[/sup] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, [sup]9[/sup] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; {Gentile: Gr. Greek} [sup]10[/sup] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (Rom 2:1 KJV)

No interpretation necessary, it's a clear statement. This agrees with James and disagrees with what you've stated.

RichardBurger said:

I will not continue your personal character study about me. I am not going to spend my efforts trying to convice you that you do the same things to me. What would be the result? You won't believe me. I will not to be the subject of a discussion. It takes away from the discussion about the scriptures.

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You know how sometimes when you're speaking, you feel like something other than English is coming out of your mouth? That's how I feel right now. Dude...you called me a liar. The definition of 'liar' is saying something you know to be untrue. I am not lying, as I believe what I am saying IS true. I am also NOT calling you a liar, as I believe that you truly believe what you are saying. That means I think you are mistaken, not lying. Get the difference?
For you to say that I am indeed calling you a liar, is ridiculous...go back and read. But the 'fact', since you like them so much, is that you did call me a liar. So your protestations of my slandering of your character are unfounded....I did not call you a liar, stop pretending I did.

Show me where Jesus, and Peter taught the gospel of grace. Did Jesus and the 12 tell the Jews they no longer had to keep the Law of Moses? Of course not! Did Jesus and Peter teach that a person is no longer under the law but under grace, that salvation is by faith in Jesus' work on the cross, that his shed blood reconciles men to God? No they didn't --- but Paul did. So how can they be teaching the same thing? Common sense tells us they were not teaching the same thing. But a person with a religous mind will never see it.

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Ok....let's have a very brief look:
What Jesus taught about Himself:
That He is the only way to the Father: John 3:16-18; John 14:6 John 6:35, 47
That He baptises with the Holy Spirit: John 14:15-15; Mark 1:4
That He would suffer and die: Matt 16:21; Matt 17:22-23; Matt 20:18-19

What Peter taught:
That Jesus is the only way to the Father: Acts 4:12
That Jesus would send the Holy Spirit: Acts 2:33, Acts 2:38
That Jesus had suffered and died for us: Acts 2:23, Acts 3:13-15,18
That salvation is through faith in Christ: Acts 2:38, 3:16, 19, 4:12, 1 Peter 1:8

What Paul taught:
Salvation through Christ alone, for all people: Rom 1:1-7; Eph 1:13-14; 2 Thess 2:13-14..all of Galatians; Eph 2:8
That in believing we receive the Holy Spirit: Eph 1:13
That is was necessary for Christ to suffer and die: Acts 17:2-3


And let's not forget this: Jesus chose Peter to reveal to the Jews that the gospel was also for Gentiles: Acts 10; Acts 15:7-11
And in Acts we see Paul, everywhere he goes, he first travels to the Jewish synagogues and preaches the gospel to them, only turning to the Gentiles after he is sent away: Acts 13:5,14; Acts 14:1-4.
We also know in Galatians that Paul warns them that ANY other gospel is a false one (Gal 1:6-9). You may say, sure...any other gospel preached to Gentiles is a false one...but consider this: Paul himself is a Jew...a 'Jew of Jews'. What makes him exempt from the 'Jewish' gospel of yours? Why would he say this then: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave or free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

If Paul was teaching a different message than Peter, why would Paul think that he had the right or authority to oppose him? Why would Paul call Peter out for what, in effect, is the message you are pushing....that there is difference and division between Jew and Gentile? Paul is very clear...what Peter is doing is wrong (Gal 2:11-14).

If you can't show me then accept the idea that the way God deals with mankind, today, changed and that means the gospel changed. It changed from law to grace. Paul's gospel of grace was not the same as that of Jesus and the 12. --- If you would see it, the gospel was that the kingdom was at hand and Jesus was the king but the Jews rejected Jesus as their king and God turned to the Gentiles with a message of salvation thru faith in Him only. Jesus, himself sent this message thru Paul who the very scriptures everyone says they believe was sent to the Gentiles with a new message from God. The scriptures tell us that this new message was HIDDEN IN GOD AND REVEALED TO PAUL FOR US. But the religious will never see the words "hidden in God and revealed to Paul" just because they refuse to see them.

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"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." Gal 1:6-8

"We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." - Gal 2:14

Seems pretty cut and dried to me....factual almost.

RichardBurger said:

If it isn't then what do you place your faith in? I believe that God, the Holy Spirit, reveals the truth in the word of God to the believer. Who reveals it to you?

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I think it is important, when it comes to faith in God that it be directed in much the same manner as Abraham, the "father of faith".
I agree with you that HolySpirit is the One who reals truth. Do you read the mormon bible? How about the JW's bible?

RichardBurger said:

And you think this applies to me, right?

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The passage I posted is contradictory to what you've said. Paul did teach that one must do works to obtain eternal life.

The gospel is according to LIFE...a new life in the power of Christ...not a new doctrinal position. THAT life shows itself by it's fruit. The world SEES that fruit and they testify that it is of God. It is not about a stubborn refusal to see what we are actually doing. It is not about blindly following a way that has no witness in reality. We are ALL known by our works. Are we doing the works that are prepared from heaven...or are we still walking in the fulility and weakness of the flesh but now with great boastings?

RichardBurger said:

As I told you before, show me where I called you a liar. Cut and paste what I said and show it to me. Be sure and say which post contained your cut and paste so I can see it in context. If you refuse to do it then you are baring false witness against me. Put up, or shut up, is the saying that comes to mind.

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Post #12

RichardBurger said:

I am amazied how the religious will not let the FACTS speak for the truth. Actually they rationalize that because they believe both Paul and James were speaking the same gospel they must make the truth into a lie.

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You are speaking to me here...you're basically calling me a religious liar...a Pharisee.

Richard said:
Show me where Jesus, and Peter taught the gospel of grace. Did Jesus and the 12 tell the Jews they no longer had to keep the Law of Moses? Of course not! Did Jesus and Peter teach that a person is no longer under the law but under grace, that salvation is by faith in Jesus' work on the cross, that his shed blood reconciles men to God? No they didn't --- but Paul did. So how can they be teaching the same thing? Common sense tells us they were not teaching the same thing. But a person with a religous mind will never see it.
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Rach said:
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Ok....let's have a very brief look:
What Jesus taught about Himself:
That He is the only way to the Father:
John 3:16-18; John 14:6 John 6:35, 47
That He baptises with the Holy Spirit: John 14:15-15; Mark 1:4
That He would suffer and die: Matt 16:21; Matt 17:22-23; Matt 20:18-19
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My comment; No one has said Jesus did not come to the Jews as their promised Messiah and King. However, Jesus, Himself, said He came only to the lost sheep of Israel. Don’t you believe Him???
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Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
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Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
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Yes I believe Jesus, and yes, he came to the lost sheep of Israel. But that is not all he came for, and the above is not all he said. Consider:

We are told often in the OT, when Christ is prophecied or promised, that He will save and bless "All Nations". He will come through Israel, but for all.

Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
(Genesis 12:1-3 ESV)

Paul here quotes from Isaiah:

For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written,
“Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles,
and sing to your name.”
And again it is said,
“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”
And again,
“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and let all the peoples extol him.”
And again Isaiah says,
“The root of Jesse will come,
even he who arises to rule the Gentiles;
in him will the Gentiles hope.”
(Romans 15:8-12 ESV)

So clearly it was always God's plan to bring salvation to the Gentiles as well as the Jews...its was not a back up plan quickly devised when the Jews denied Christ.

Now, it's quite obvious that Jesus began his ministry with Jews, as he was one himself. When you wake up one morning and decide change is needed, you start with your own house, you don't leave it disorganised and head to someone else's house! But even though Jesus started with and had a definite heart for Israel, he did not exclude the Gentiles.


On the way to Jerusalem he was passing along between Samaria and Galilee. And as he entered a village, he was met by ten lepers, who stood at a distance and lifted up their voices, saying, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.” When he saw them he said to them, “Go and show yourselves to the priests.” And as they went they were cleansed. Then one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, praising God with a loud voice; and he fell on his face at Jesus' feet, giving him thanks. Now he was a Samaritan. Then Jesus answered, “Were not ten cleansed? Where are the nine? Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?” And he said to him, “Rise and go your way; your faith has made you well.” (Luke 16:11-19 ESV)

The Samaritan woman said to him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” (John 4:9-10 ESV)

Jesus preached the gospel to this Samaritan woman. If he had not come to save everyone, this would have been completely pointless for him...he would have told her...seek out Paul in a couple of years.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:14 ESV)

Truly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will also be told in memory of her.” (Matthew 26:13 ESV)

And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. (Mark 13:10 ESV)

and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. (Luke 24:46-47 ESV)

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:8 ESV)

Now, all of these things are things Jesus said as well. Sure sounds to me like while he began a work close to home, his sights were set on the larger picture. He made good and sure his disciples knew that Jerusalem was just the start.

What Peter taught:
That Jesus is the only way to the Father:
Acts 4:12
That Jesus would send the Holy Spirit: Acts 2:33, Acts 2:38
That Jesus had suffered and died for us: Acts 2:23, Acts 3:13-15,18
That salvation is through faith in Christ: Acts 2:38, 3:16, 19, 4:12, 1 Peter 1:8
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My comment: Both Jesus and Peter were preaching that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and King and that the kingdom was at hand; meaning He was there to set up the kingdom. There is no mention of salvation thru faith alone, that we are no longer under the Law of Moses. No where did Jesus or the 12 rescinded the Law of Moses. Neither of them said we are dead to the Law.
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I find it quite interesting that Peter doesn't say anywhere that they need to contiune in their laws. He goes on quite a bit about how a Christian should live though...why do you suppose he would do that if they could rely on the laws to tell them how to live?

As far as Peter mentioning faith or grace:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:3-5 ESV)

Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:8-9 ESV)

knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. (1 Peter 1:18-19 ESV)

By Silvanus, a faithful brother as I regard him, I have written briefly to you, exhorting and declaring that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it. (1 Peter 5:12 ESV)

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
(2 Peter 1:1-2 ESV)

Peter also goes on a lot about how in Christ we have been cleansed of sin. If they were required to keep the law still....wouldn't it be a bit premature to anounce that?

... having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. (2 Peter 1:9b ESV)

Last but not least, Peter acknowledges Paul in his second letter. Not only that but he shows us that Paul has written to the same audience about the same matters! Now why on earth would he do that if he was preaching a different gospel?

And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
(2 Peter 3:15-16 ESV)

What Paul taught:
Salvation through Christ alone, for all people: Rom 1:1-7; Eph 1:13-14; 2 Thess 2:13-14..all of Galatians; Eph 2:8
That in believing we receive the Holy Spirit: Eph 1:13
That is was necessary for Christ to suffer and die: Acts 17:2-3
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My comment: Paul was given a gospel of grace that was hidden in God and revealed to him by Jesus. Paul said he was the first to be justified under grace as a pattern for those that would follow under grace.
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1 Timothy 1:15-16
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
NKJV

Do you believe 1 Timothy 1:15-16?????????

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Of course I believe Timothy....I believe the whole bible. But Paul here is not saying he was the first to be saved under the 'grace pattern'. Not even a little. Perhaps other translations might help you here:

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. (1 Timothy 1:15-16 ESV)

This saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance: “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners”—and I am the worst of them. But I received mercy for this reason, so that in me, the worst of them, Christ Jesus might demonstrate His extraordinary patience as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life. (HCSB)

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. (NIV 1984)

The meaning of the word used here (protos)

Definition:
contracted superlative of <G4253> (pro); foremost (in time, place, order or importance) :- before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.

Considering we already know how Paul looked apon himself....:

For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. (1 Corinthians 15:9 ESV)

You are taking one word and builing a whole doctrine on it. 'Mystery' does not make a seperate gospel. Especially in light of the evidence I showed above that tells us that there is THE gospel...singular. Jesus said the gospel he was preaching right then, to be the gospel that was given to both Jew and Gentile.

Considering all this, I would say your supposition based on one word is very flimsy indeed. And I would very much like you to comment on these texts, since I doubt you can refute them:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave or free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." Gal 1:6-8

"We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." - Gal 2:14

May I give you a few Bible verses, first of all, the Catholic view of salvation is not faith plus works, if by works you mean purely human efforts to win God's favor.
Catholics believe in salvation by grace alone, yet grace must not be resisted, either before justification (by remaining in unbelief) or after (by engaging in serious sin). Read carefully 1 Corinthians 6, Galatians 5, and Ephesians 5.
Second, the Bible nowhere uses the expressions "justification by faith alone" or "salvation by faith alone." The first was directly the invention of Luther; the second his by implication. Luther inserted "alone" into the German translation of Romans 3:23 to give credence to his new doctrine.
But your question deals with John 3:16. Yes, this passage does speak of the saving power of faith, but in no sense does it diminish the role of obedience to Christ in the process of getting to heaven.
In fact, it assumes it. Just as you non-Catholics overlook the rest of the chapter in connection with what being born of water and the Holy Spirit really means--you ignore the water part, which refers to baptism--you also overlook the context when interpreting Christ's words about obtaining eternal life in John 3:16.
In John 3:36 we are told, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him."
This expands on John 3:16. It is another way of saying what Paul says in Romans 6:23: "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Although we cannot earn God's unmerited favor by our good works, we can reject his love by our sins (that is, by our evil works) and thereby lose the eternal life he freely offers us in Christ.

RichardBurger said:

This is poat #12.

You said: "Actually, I disagree. Again you are just presuming that both James and Paul have to be talking about that one small section of scripture"
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Richard said: Actually, what I said was that Paul used Gen 15 for what he wrote and that James used Gen. 22 for what he wrote. In Gen. 15 Abraham was righteous before God by his belief (faith) that God would keep His promise. --- James used Gen. 22 to support the idea that Abraham was righteous before God because of what he (Abraham) did.

I am amazied how the religious will not let the FACTS speak for the truth. Actually they rationalize that because they believe both Paul and James were speaking the same gospel they must make the truth into a lie.
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Now I see why you did not cut and paste what I said in post #12.

Your claim that I called you, specifically, a liar is false and you are a false witness. No where did I mention your name. I said the religious (A GROUP) I certainly do not see any reason to discuss anything with you when you do these things. And I bet you are thinking you have not commited a sin.

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Oh snort! Come on! That's the worst cop out I've ever heard! "Yeah I was answering you directly, and yeah I was calling what your answer was religious and lying...but I never said your name directly, so you can't prove I was directing it at you".... ^_^ Whatever...comfort yourself with this view if you need to. I honestly don't care what you call me, I just found it strange you would say I was calling you a liar...since I never even hinted at the word! I also find it interesting that you didn't start insisting that you hadn't called me that until you needed something else to have a go at me with. All the verses I'm posting makes it pretty hard for a biblical come back, I suppose. Calling me a false witness (which incidentally is a liar...sorry, I see humour in that!) and going on about me needing to repent just seems an 'oh my goodness, look over there!' tactic. As I said...comfort yourself!

But never mind all that. You still haven't answered these verses...at all, let alone to my satisfaction. Until you do, there is no way your idea of '2' gospels can even crawl, let alone get up and walk.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave or free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." Gal 1:6-8

"We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." - Gal 2:14

And those are just three passages that I've posted...you haven't even refuted all the other ones I put there as well. Smells to me like you cannot refute them...which sits well with me, as I fully believe that you have nothing to refute them with...