Hi haz,
I'd intended to answer this earlier, but lost where you'd posted it. (I think it may be in another thread, also, but here is where I'm replying.)
Hi dragonfly and Axehead,
...
Are you both members of the same church and what is that church?
Yes, we are members of the same Church. As I said elsewhere, it is not a
denomination, (if this is what you are asking)?
Hi haz,
Thank you for your even response to my previous post. I will try to explain the difficulty I (and possibly the others, but in this case I am speaking only for myself) have with your approach. First, let me put this scripture at the top of what I want to say.
2 Corinthians 10:12
For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves:
but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
Way back at the start of 1 Corinthians 1, Paul writes this:
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you says, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
Understanding Paul's reasoning is going to help you understand mine. Paul was continually being accused of preaching a false gospel by unbelieving Jews, until it had been stripped of everything except
Christ crucified, the power of God and the wisdom of God. (My paraphrase.) By the time he was writing to the Galatians, he had circumcised Timothy. Now, he was having to explain why outward circumcision was unnecessary
for salvation.
Do you see the problem?
The scriptures plainly declare through both the law and the prophets the gospel which the apostles had come to understand through Christ's teaching to them after He had risen. This did not cover everything. Occasionally, they would remember something new, and put it together with the rest of their understanding. This is exactly what happens to us, as we go on with the Lord, being tutored by the Holy Spirit, and by those who are given understanding of scripture for the equipping of the saints and their ministry - one to another - within the body of Christ. We all need each other to have truth expounded to us in a fuller way; but this should lead us to focus again and again on
Christ, and not ourselves,
if it is of the Lord's leading.
Noting that you are in Australia, I can see there may be quite a mystery in your mind over what people 'over here' believe, and how it is expressed. As a Brit, I've had surprise after surprise about the way (what is seriously called) 'doctrine' has drifted from any scriptural roots it may once have had, in certain group mentalities which express themselves in parts of the 'church in America'. For instance, the Cal-Arm debate has been taken to extremes which are totally unknown in the UK, and would be considered indecent over here. (I speak for myself, anyway, because those who take into account the whole counsel of God, can see holes in the arguments through which a coach and horses would easily pass!)
I probably sound as if I'm ducking your questions, but I hope the foregoing is useful padding to our future discussions. And this is what I want to share - that I have been taught the Bible is the word of God, and I have found this to be so as I've learned to listen to Him speaking to me through it.
God has given every person the faculty to recognise when He speaks to them, and He does speak to everyone. But as Christians, (with the Holy Spirit), our challenge is to obey Him from the heart, and to keep bringing our lives into line with scripture's testimony as to what that should look like.
To me, this is the correct emphasis. John 3 contains a many verses which speak to this issue. What I've seen happening in the discussions here, (CyB), is a focus on earth instead of 'above'; on fallen man, instead of upon redeemed man; on redeemed man, instead of on the Redeemer. Do you catch my drift? We are looking in the wrong place for doctrine if it is to be based on the thinking of partly renewed minds, or, unregenerate minds.
Oswald Chambers' editors entitled one of the entries in
My Utmost for His Highest, 'Continuous Conversion'.
Here it is from utmost.org, Dec 28th.
. . . unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven —Matthew 18:3
These words of our Lord refer to our initial conversion, but we should continue to turn to God as children, being continuously converted every day of our lives. If we trust in our own abilities, instead of God’s, we produce consequences for which God will hold us responsible. When God through His sovereignty brings us into new situations, we should immediately make sure that our natural life submits to the spiritual, obeying the orders of the Spirit of God. Just because we have responded properly in the past is no guarantee that we will do so again. The response of the natural to the spiritual should be continuous conversion, but this is where we so often refuse to be obedient. No matter what our situation is, the Spirit of God remains unchanged and His salvation unaltered. But we must “put on the new man . . .” (
Ephesians 4:24). God holds us accountable every time we refuse to convert ourselves, and He sees our refusal as willful disobedience. Our natural life must not rule— God must rule in us.
To refuse to be continuously converted puts a stumbling block in the growth of our spiritual life. There are areas of self-will in our lives where our pride pours contempt on the throne of God and says, “I won’t submit.” We deify our independence and self-will and call them by the wrong name. What God sees as stubborn weakness, we call strength. There are whole areas of our lives that have not yet been brought into submission, and this can only be done by this continuous conversion. Slowly but surely we can claim the whole territory for the Spirit of God.
That said, I would point out to you that Oswald Chambers' unconcealed emphasis on the choices we make by ourselves for ourselves, is no less than Paul's. There are just a few places in the New Testament where 'yourself', 'yourselves', or 'ye' (KJV) meaning 'you all', are critical to grasping the live meaning of the verse - like taking hold of a live wire. Miss those emphases, and the same word is dead as a dodo.
Therefore, in the discussion about sin upon which you have been intent,
the operation of the
faith of God in me, is dependant on my submission to His death and His resurrection. It is not something which I 'do', in that sense, and yet it is entirely with my
active co-operation that He both slays me, and raises me to walk in newness of life. Without my co-operation, He can do nothing with me or through me. Romans 8:13. John 15:1 - 8.
Now sin is not all about
doing, just as the Day of Atonement was about sins of omission and sins in the realm of the mind. Therefore,
not sinning, is sometimes about
not doing what was used to be done,
and doing what was not used to being done - a revolution in both thinking and acting out the word of God as it comes to us continuously through our fellowship with Him in the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit has quite a few names, and even more operations available to Him as He moves upon and inside our hearts and lives. Every name He is given is relevant to His ministry - which is, after all else is said, to bring
Christ right into us, right alongside us, right into our full view, to comfort and strengthen, admonish and rebuke, convict and to heal. To God, the issue is not the sin from which we have been delivered in principle (if we will believe that part of the gospel at all - if we don't,
are we saved from sin and death?) but whether we are being obedient children -
Matthew 7:21, Ephesians 2:3 - or children of wrath (unbelief) - disobedient.
I will stop here. I hope you are getting a sense of my direction, and perspective.
