The Gospel of Grace:

Axehead · Aug 7, 2012

Hey there Dave,

You forgot some scriptures. You need the whole counsel of God in order to have an appreciation of who the REAL Jesus is and what the REAL Gospel is all about.

brother dave said:
Gal 5:4

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Joh 15:3 Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you.

Here you stopped short. I will continue for you. John 15:4,5 and 6 and others in John 15. Now, don't you be cutting scriptures out of the Bible.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Great conversing with you,

Axehead

brother dave · Aug 8, 2012

Axehead said:
Hey there Dave,

You forgot some scriptures. You need the whole counsel of God in order to have an appreciation of who the REAL Jesus is and what the REAL Gospel is all about.

Here you stopped short. I will continue for you. John 15:4,5 and 6 and others in John 15. Now, don't you be cutting scriptures out of the Bible.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Great conversing with you,

Axehead

Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Joh 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Joh 8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
Ye are severed from Christ (katērgēthēte apo Christou). First aorist passive of katargeō, to make null and void

UNSAVED! you are lost! who turn from faith to law!

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

ev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

" But the fearful, and unbelieving"

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

CHRIST! gets all the glory! for He does all the work! i just believe!
The simplicity of Christ! Bless and praise Him!

brother dave said:
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Joh 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Joh 8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
Ye are severed from Christ (katērgēthēte apo Christou). First aorist passive of katargeō, to make null and void

UNSAVED! you are lost! who turn from faith to law!

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

ev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

" But the fearful, and unbelieving"

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

CHRIST! gets all the glory! for He does all the work! i just believe!
The simplicity of Christ! Bless and praise Him!

I THINK YOU LORD, FOR YOU HAVE GIVEN me YOUR POWER OVER sin!

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

dragonfly · Aug 8, 2012

1 John 2

15 Love not the world,

neither the things [that are] in the world.

If any man love the world,

the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that [is] in the world,

the lust of the flesh,

and the lust of the eyes,

and the pride of life,

is not of the Father,

but is of the world.

17 And the world passes away, and the lust thereof:

but he that does the will of God abides for ever.

Amen.

Episkopos · Aug 8, 2012

....he that does the will of God abides for ever.

haz · Aug 8, 2012

dragonfly said:
Thanks for your answer, haz,

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Please read the harshness of Jesus' teaching in John 15 to see what happens to branches which/who don't abide in Him.

This is real eternal life or real eternal death. There is nothing between.

When a branch is grafted into a tree, a cut is made in the tree to receive the grafted branch. Then the branch is bound tightly into the cut, so that the sap from the tree will start to nourish it. This is a common style of improving the performance of the branch without adding any burden to the branch other than to rest in place, and be a branch. It is clear though, that if the branch is removed (in our case, removes itself) from the cut which was made to receive it, then its fruitfulness becomes impossible. Jesus is even speaking about branches which remain in place, but turn out not to bear fruit. Even these will be pruned away to keep the tree fruitful. Because that's what a fruit tree is for - fruit.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and

every [branch] that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine;

no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit:

for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;

and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will,

and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples

Hi dragonfly,

Just a quick answer as it's late here and I really need to do my back exercises too.

Christ is our firstfruit (1Cor 15:20).
And 'if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy', Rom 11:16

Now the thief on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' had Christ the firstfruit and he was therefore holy. So, why would those who confess Christ BEFORE their deathbed have to do extra in going through a process of perfect obedience to that list of works I asked you about, to confirm that they are abiding in Christ?

thanks

Episkopos · Aug 8, 2012

haz said:
Hi dragonfly,

Just a quick answer as it's late here and I really need to do my back exercises too.

Christ is our firstfruit (1Cor 15:20).
And 'if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy', Rom 11:16

Now the thief on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' had Christ the firstfruit and he was therefore holy. So, why would those who confess Christ BEFORE their deathbed have to do extra in going through a process of perfect obedience to that list of works I asked you about, to confirm that they are abiding in Christ?

thanks

One does not have to be holy to be saved. To be saved one needs to do what is right and please God. Holiness is both an event and a process that prepares people to become the Bride of Christ.

Axehead · Aug 8, 2012

Episkopos said:
One does not have to be holy to be saved. To be saved one needs to do what is right and please God. Holiness is both an event and a process that prepares people to become the Bride of Christ.

Amen, Episkopos.

Haz and Dave,

Can you explain this verse?
Tit_1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Axehead

Episkopos · Aug 8, 2012

Lifted this from another site...

A blood covenant is the union of two parties into one new person. In this union all assets, liabilities and resources become common. It is an exchange of life.

Episkopos, on 08 August 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:
One does not have to be holy to be saved. To be saved one needs to do what is right and please God. Holiness is both an event and a process that prepares people to become the Bride of Christ.

But those who claim to be saved and live without holiness are in for judgment.

dragonfly · Aug 8, 2012

Hi haz,

Christ is our firstfruit (1Cor 15:20).
And 'if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy', Rom 11:16

The picture of the true Vine and the olive tree are very similar, in that it is sin and unbelief which cause a branch to be in danger of being cut of by our Father, the husbandman. And in case you think He's nicer than that, let me remind you of how an unprofitable son [branch] was treated under the law of Moses.

I have the impression that - because you believe Rom 4:15 is relevant to Christians, and that there being no law no sin can be imputed to believers - you may be of the opinion that the standard for son under the New Covenant is lower than under the law of Moses. But for the same reason as the writer to the Hebrews quoted the law of Moses in ch 10 of that epistle, stating 'v 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?' I am bringing this to your attention.

Deuteronomy 21:18 - 21
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; and they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

brother dave · Aug 8, 2012

epi! saw on the news that there was some UFOs sighted up north! did you see any? :wacko:

Axehead said:
Amen, Episkopos.

Haz and Dave,

Can you explain this verse?
Tit_1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Axehead

Rom 3:27 What, then, is there to boast about? That has been eliminated. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on the principle of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works prescribed by the law.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he would have had something to boast about-though not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:4 Now to someone who works, wages are not considered a gift but an obligation.
Rom 4:5 However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Likewise, David also speaks of the blessedness of the person whom God regards as righteous apart from works:

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
it 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

i could on and on! what is it about the Word of God that you reject what is written? Do you think you are wiser than He is? stronger? or is the gospel just foolish to you?

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

repent of your unbelief! go to His Cross and tell Him of ALL YOUR GOOD WORKS!

how clear can the scriptures be? and im sorry until you accept the fact that this is by faith! YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THE WORKS OF FAITH!

dragonfly said:
Hi haz,

The picture of the true Vine and the olive tree are very similar, in that it is sin and unbelief which cause a branch to be in danger of being cut of by our Father, the husbandman. And in case you think He's nicer than that, let me remind you of how an unprofitable son [branch] was treated under the law of Moses.

I have the impression that - because you believe Rom 4:15 is relevant to Christians, and that there being no law no sin can be imputed to believers - you may be of the opinion that the standard for son under the New Covenant is lower than under the law of Moses. But for the same reason as the writer to the Hebrews quoted the law of Moses in ch 10 of that epistle, stating 'v 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?' I am bringing this to your attention.

Deuteronomy 21:18 - 21
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; and they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Again ? moses before Abraham!

Gal 5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.

Gal 5:4 Ye are deprived of all profit from the Christ as separated from him , as many as are justified by law; ye have fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 Those of you who are trying to be justified by the law have been cut off from Christ. You have fallen away from grace.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

here is four different ways of saying "you are missing God"! and your own pride and desire to justify yourself by keeping your standard of righteousness! (what ever you call it) is a SIN against His Blood!

brother dave said:
epi! saw on the news that there was some UFOs sighted up north! did you see any? :wacko:

Rom 3:27 What, then, is there to boast about? That has been eliminated. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on the principle of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works prescribed by the law.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he would have had something to boast about-though not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:4 Now to someone who works, wages are not considered a gift but an obligation.
Rom 4:5 However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Likewise, David also speaks of the blessedness of the person whom God regards as righteous apart from works:

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
it 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

i could on and on! what is it about the Word of God that you reject what is written? Do you think you are wiser than He is? stronger? or is the gospel just foolish to you?

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

repent of your unbelief! go to His Cross and tell Him of ALL YOUR GOOD WORKS!

how clear can the scriptures be? and im sorry until you accept the fact that this is by faith! YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THE WORKS OF FAITH!

Again ? moses before Abraham!

Gal 5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.

Gal 5:4 Ye are deprived of all profit from the Christ as separated from him , as many as are justified by law; ye have fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 Those of you who are trying to be justified by the law have been cut off from Christ. You have fallen away from grace.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

here is four different ways of saying "you are missing God"! and your own pride and desire to justify yourself by keeping your standard of righteousness! (what ever you call it) is a SIN against His Blood!
Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Isa 59:3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
Isa 59:4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
Isa 59:5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.
Isa 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.
Isa 59:7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.
Isa 59:8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Isa 59:3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
Isa 59:4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
Isa 59:5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.
Isa 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.
Isa 59:7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.
Isa 59:8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.

us2are1 · Aug 8, 2012

Episkopos said:
But those who claim to be saved and live without holiness are in for judgment.

Amen Episkopos

That is just plain truth.

1 Corinthians 3
17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

Axehead · Aug 8, 2012

It takes real living faith to stay in relationship with Jesus Christ and bless and praise Him in the midst of trials and trbulations. Real faith abides in Christ, false faith hides because it doesn't know Him.

Job 13:15
Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him:

Axehead

haz · Aug 9, 2012

dragonfly said:
Hi haz,

The picture of the true Vine and the olive tree are very similar, in that it is sin and unbelief which cause a branch to be in danger of being cut of by our Father, the husbandman. And in case you think He's nicer than that, let me remind you of how an unprofitable son [branch] was treated under the law of Moses.

I have the impression that - because you believe Rom 4:15 is relevant to Christians, and that there being no law no sin can be imputed to believers - you may be of the opinion that the standard for son under the New Covenant is lower than under the law of Moses. But for the same reason as the writer to the Hebrews quoted the law of Moses in ch 10 of that epistle, stating 'v 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?' I am bringing this to your attention.

Deuteronomy 21:18 - 21
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; and they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Hi dragonfly,

You obsess over standards of perfection for us in this imperfect physical state and promote Epi’s gospel of judgement/condemnation/death.

But, what are God’s standards? 1John 3:23
Believe on Jesus and Love one another.
In loving one another we keep His commandments stated above (1John 5:2)

We forgive 7x70 (instead of judging righteousness by works of the law resulting in condemnation/death).
We share the gospel of grace to the unsaved and encourage one another in the faith.
And yes, our lifestyles improve also.

It's interesting that Jesus said we should forgive 7x70 and yet you claim that God will not forgive His children 7x70 for an imperfect liefstyle. It's seems like your saying that we are more forgiving than God is.

You quoted Heb 10 for my attention. I likewise bring it to you, Epi and Co. for your attention.
Heb 10:26-
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

As you and Epi have heard the gospel of Christ you have a choice. Believe that you have been sanctified by Christ’s one offering (Heb 10:10) or reject it (believing that you have to see perfection in the flesh i.e self-righteous works, Gal 3:3), which is sin.

Heb 10:26 states, if you sin (self-righteousness by works, which is unbelief) willfully after having the knowledge of the truth (gospel of Christ)…..you know the rest. This is counting the blood of the covenant by which we he was sanctified a common thing and insulted the Spirit of grace.

As Axehead said, "It takes real living faith to stay in relationship with Jesus Christ and bless and praise Him in the midst of trials and trbulations. Real faith abides in Christ..."
Sadly for some the flesh takes over, and having started in the Spirit they seek to be perfected by the flesh such as described in Gal 3:3.

Son of Man quoted:
1 Corinthians 3
17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

Yes, we are the temple of God.
BUT, if you rebuild that which you destroyed you make yourself a transgressor (Gal 2:18)
This is fornication. This is defiling the temple of God.

Axehead · Aug 9, 2012

brother dave said:
epi! saw on the news that there was some UFOs sighted up north! did you see any? :wacko:

Rom 3:27 What, then, is there to boast about? That has been eliminated. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on the principle of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works prescribed by the law.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he would have had something to boast about-though not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:4 Now to someone who works, wages are not considered a gift but an obligation.
Rom 4:5 However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Likewise, David also speaks of the blessedness of the person whom God regards as righteous apart from works:

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
it 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

i could on and on! what is it about the Word of God that you reject what is written? Do you think you are wiser than He is? stronger? or is the gospel just foolish to you?

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

repent of your unbelief! go to His Cross and tell Him of ALL YOUR GOOD WORKS!

how clear can the scriptures be? and im sorry until you accept the fact that this is by faith! YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THE WORKS OF FAITH!

Again ? moses before Abraham!

Gal 5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.

Gal 5:4 Ye are deprived of all profit from the Christ as separated from him , as many as are justified by law; ye have fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 Those of you who are trying to be justified by the law have been cut off from Christ. You have fallen away from grace.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

here is four different ways of saying "you are missing God"! and your own pride and desire to justify yourself by keeping your standard of righteousness! (what ever you call it) is a SIN against His Blood!

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Isa 59:3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
Isa 59:4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
Isa 59:5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.
Isa 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.
Isa 59:7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.
Isa 59:8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.

Dave,

I don't have any "good works" to boast about. I boast in Jesus. You did not answer my question and that is because you cannot explain Titus 1:16 and in your "works" (at least on this forum you deny Him.).

Axehead

haz · Aug 9, 2012

Axehead said:
Dave,

I don't have any "good works" to boast about. I boast in Jesus. You did not answer my question and that is because you cannot explain Titus 1:16 and in your "works" (at least on this forum you deny Him.).

Axehead

Howdy Axehead,

My hope is that you do boast in Jesus.

So how can people show by 'works' that they deny Him?

Gal 2:18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
Rev 3:15,16 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.[sup] [/sup]So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Is your boast in Jesus, having the righteousness which is of God by faith OR is it your flesh bewitching you like in Gal 3:3?

us2are1 · Aug 9, 2012

haz said:
Howdy Axehead,

My hope is that you do boast in Jesus.

So how can people show by 'works' that they deny Him?

Gal 2:18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
Rev 3:15,16 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.[sup] [/sup]So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Is your boast in Jesus, having the righteousness which is of God by faith OR is it your flesh bewitching you like in Gal 3:3?

No one is talking about the works of the Mosaic law. No one knows what that law is anymore. We are talking about the works of the Spirit of God.

If you deny those works you show that you deny Him. If you preach against the works where God bears you witness. You preach against Him.

James 2
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

.

haz · Aug 9, 2012

Son of Man said:
No one is talking about the works of the Mosaic law. No one knows what that law is anymore. We are talking about the works of the Spirit of God.

If you deny those works you show that you deny Him. If you preach against the works where God bears you witness. You preach against Him.

James 2
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

.

Hi Son of Man,

And what are these works?

Believe on Jesus, John 6:29.

This is what the thief on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' did.

If you deny these works, looking for perfection in the flesh, you deny Him.

us2are1 · Aug 9, 2012

haz said:
Hi Son of Man,

And what are these works?

Believe on Jesus, John 6:29.

This is what the thief on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' did.

If you deny these works, looking for perfection in the flesh, you deny Him.

He laid down his life for Christ in faith knowing it was his last day on earth alive. Abraham was willing to slay His son.
Christ showed many works of the spirit to the eye witnesses. The eye witnesses wrote it down for you to read and believe. It is all in the bible. There are those who believe who are displaying them on the streets here and there.

The mouth service crowd is about to fade away while those of true faith in the Lord alone are about to come forth and lay the planet waste.

John 20
29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

1 Corinthians 2
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

It will take real faith and real foundation of belief in Christ to make it through what is coming up here on earth. Christ's two witnesses are about to remove the water and food from the planet by shutting up the heavens and turning the water to blood. No one is going anywhere and only those of faith will not be harmed.

.

brother dave · Aug 9, 2012

Son of Man said:
Amen Episkopos

That is just plain truth.

1 Corinthians 3
17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mat 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are the things which defile a man

Col 2:20 If ye died with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do ye subject yourselves to ordinances,
Col 2:21 Handle not, nor taste, nor touch
Col 2:22 (all which things are to perish with the using), after the precepts and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and severity to the body; but are not of any value against the indulgence of the flesh.

you dont seem to have much understanding? could you define holiness?

Axehead said:
Dave,

I don't have any "good works" to boast about. I boast in Jesus. You did not answer my question and that is because you cannot explain Titus 1:16 and in your "works" (at least on this forum you deny Him.).

Axehead

1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing against myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Wherefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall each man have his praise from God.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand.

Rom 14:10 But thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or thou again, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment-seat of God.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, to me every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge ye this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock in his brother's way, or an occasion of falling.

Axehead said:
It takes real living faith to stay in relationship with Jesus Christ and bless and praise Him in the midst of trials and trbulations. Real faith abides in Christ, false faith hides because it doesn't know Him.

Job 13:15
Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him:

AxeheadGal 5:4 Ye are deprived of all profit from the Christ as separated from him , as many as are justified by law; ye have fallen from grace.

Gal 3:12 and the law is not of faith;
Gal 5:4

Ye are deprived of all profit from the Christ as separated from him , as many as are justified by law; ye have fallen from grace.

Maybe? you guys could define for Haz and i what your definitions of "holiness" and "works of faith" are?
Also could one of you explain your understanding of "walking in the Spirit"?

maybe we agree on more than you think? and maybe none of you would dare to define these things because it would reveal your darkened spiritual condition? :blink:

dragonfly · Aug 9, 2012

Hi haz,

There is something that you're missing in your understanding, or you would not be hammering away with the same argument after all these days. Even when it has been pointed out to you repeatedly that we are not talking about fulfilling the Law of Moses, you keep returning to it. I can only assume this is something to do with doctrine you have received separately from having studied scripture, and you have not been guided in your studies by those who are filled with the Holy Spirit's illumination.

You have consciously and deliberately chosen - in this discussion - to aligne yourself with the term 'gospel of grace', regardless of the details believed by some here who proclaim what they call 'the gospel of grace'. That's interfered with our discussion, too. As a result, I agree we've been circling the same issues with no progress. You've aligned yourself with a group who either do not believe in victory over sin, or, who do not believe all NT teachings. But, if you would be willing to apply yourself to understanding the 'gospel of grace' which the apostles preached, and re-aligning your statement of faith with it, we will find all the common ground which the New Testament offers.

It's interesting that Jesus said we should forgive 7x70 and yet you claim that God will not forgive His children 7x70 for an imperfect liefstyle.

Here is an example of the divisions within the faulty gospel of grace camp, in that you are talking about forgiveness, whereas some don't believe forgiveness is necessary. Or, don't believe the need to approach Him for for forgiveness even if they believe forgiveness is necessary. They think it happens automatically. But I'm glad you don't agree with that, and you take the teachings of Jesus Christ, seriously.

I have never said God will not forgive. Episkopos has never said God will not forgive. What Episkopos is saying is, that the believers who believe it's okay to continue in sin, are in for a shock when they discover it was not okay to sin as a lifestyle; it was not okay to sin sometimes; it was not okay to go from one sin to the next with an unrepentant heart towards God; and it was not okay to do their own will. Are you following? If you are, you will see that a believer who discounts the teachings of Jesus Christ, and who misunderstands the true gospel of grace which the apostles preached, is laying themselves open to becoming a branch that has been cut off by the Father because they are ignorant of His ways. 1 John 2:6

Regarding this perfection of lifestyle which troubles you, it is really not what you think it is. You are correct to begin with Heb 10:14 which defines our condition in the spiritual realm. This is not imputed righteousness - it is imparted to us because the Holy Spirit makes it real in us. Here is one way to understand this: Christ in you. (Col 1:27). If you don't believe Christ is in you, His life being given not only to you but to the world through your body - treasure in earthen vessels - that is a blockage to the freedom which can be found in Christ, to do His will continuously as we are commanded.

It is not uncommon for Christians to disbelieve that Christ is in them. Sometimes it's because Christ is not in them. They have not received the Holy Spirit at all, or, they have no idea what the Bible tells Christians to be. As a result, they carry on living the way they were, with a new label stuck to their lives. Sometimes the Holy Spirit has come to them and they feel worse than they did before they believed, because now Christ in them is ordering all the garbage to be carried out of the temple of their lives, and they don't necessarily want to see it go! This is a common battle, which Paul describes in 2 Corinthians 10:3 - 6 - a battle which we have to allow God to win in us, for His glory to show through more and more. 2 Cor 3:18.

After all our posts to each other, I still can't understand why you do not agree that a Christian should 'do' things differently as a natural response to becoming in right relationship with God through faith. The thing which comes through by what you have not said - is that it is something to do with giving up sinning. Either you don't believe that's possible, or, you don't want to stop. It seems there is a focus by Christians today, on sin in the flesh, which is the exact opposite of what the apostles experienced after they received the power of the Holy Spirit. I (speaking for myself) believe that wrong focus is spiritually unhealthy. No-one who is looking at a sin and longing for it has the same hope of overcoming it, as if they stop looking at it and look to the Lord, and pray to be delivered from that temptation and go do something God can approve, instead. That is the way to live free from sin.

Every sin separates us from God, and in order to be right with God, all sin has to be removed - not just with regard to our sinful actions, but the bondage to sin itself, which causes us to sin - this has to be addressed. This is what Jesus Christ addressed on the cross. He did not just die as a sacrifice for our sins - sins being the actions which flow from a sinful nature - but He defeated the power of the sin nature - the devil - while He was on the cross. We do not just waltz into resurrection life and the power to live free from sin, without also accepting the death sentence within ourselves to our own sinful nature. This is the portal to victory over sin.

This is where the faulty 'gospel of grace' falters, in that it seems to resist the outworking in our flesh of victory over sin, while wanting to claim that through God's endless grace, sin is accounted for by Christ's death. That is true at the first coming, but after that we can no longer claim to be ignorant of, or powerless, to fulfil God's demands upon us as His sons.

Example - a man who beats his wife every night after taking too much alcohol, who one day becomes a Christian, is expected to stop consuming too much alcohol and to stop beating his wife. Such changes would be the life of Christ working in him (grace) - his faith, in action. Philippians 4:13, Deuteronomy 30:14, Romans 10:8.

What's the problem with that, haz? Please explain?

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