The Gospel of Grace:

haz · Aug 18, 2012

dragonfly said:
Hi haz,

As Prentis said, 'lawlessness' means the person does not obey any law.

Regarding the detail of the 'law of God', this is where you need the Holy Spirit to explain things to you. I've already given you the verses (twice) that contain relevant references to law under the New Covenant. Unless you spend time meditatng about them and building on what you already know of God, it is going to remain a mystery to you. In the New Covenant God's law is written on our hearts by Him. If you had this law written on your heart, you'd know.

Do you know you can read through any of the gospels in less than an hour? Most of the other books in the NT are shorter, and all you need to do is read them carefully, paying attention to the information you're looking for. Maybe it would help to write down your findings as you go? Everyone has their own way of learning.

Thank you for this, but you seem to have neglected that the Gentiles achieved the law of righteousness by faith. This is why your continual returning to the 10 commandments (Law of Moses) is baffling.

Again, no it is not the 10 commandments.

The details are in the NT particularly, but the OT is helpful for a different perspective on all the same things. There is no shortcut to BIble knowledge. You either have to read the books like the narratives they are, or, you have to pick a theme or topic of interest, and find out what the Bible actually says about it using a word search and literally reading all the verses it pulls, to see how they connect, thus building up comprehension of your topic.

One way to find out the things we don't do, is to search for Paul's lists of sins, and pray for yourself on all the ones that trip you up. A way to see the things we do do, is to consider Jesus, of whom John said, 'but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ'. What did His grace look like? What are the graces He gives His people? He was the Truth about everything. It's important that we become the truth where we have been something other than true.

These would all be possible places to start, but it's usually best to start with a matter than genuinely concerns you so that you're motivated to wrestle with its implications for your own life. That way, your study is most meaningful and will probably yield the quickest results in terms of good fruit.

Hi dragonfly,

The issue remains that the likes of Epi, prentis, whitestone, yourself, etc accuse Christians of being lawless and therefore lost. And that without any foundation.
Yet none of you have achieved the perfect behavior you claim is evidence of salvation.

My concern throughout this discussion is that this gospel you guys offer is one of being perfected by the flesh (Gal 3:3).

dragonfly · Aug 19, 2012

Hi haz,

Hi dragonfly,

The issue remains that the likes of Epi, prentis, whitestone, yourself, etc accuse Christians of being lawless and therefore lost. And that without any foundation.
Yet none of you have achieved the perfect behavior you claim is evidence of salvation.

My concern throughout this discussion is that this gospel you guys offer is one of being perfected by the flesh (Gal 3:3).

I have referred you to eight scriptures which allude to laws relevant to being a Christian. If these laws are not operating in a Christian's life at all, then maybe they are lawless, but I, personally, have not accused you, personally, of being lawless. But you, through claiming that there is no law applicable to Christians, make yourself sound as if you do not abide by any laws.

You have yourself to thank for this impression, and especially it is compounded by your use of Romans 4:15, which refers to the era before the Mosaic Law. Even this, though, is not strictly a time when there were no rules. Genesis 26:5

You need to read the Bible until you get understanding (Proverbs 4:7, Proverbs 16:16) of the basic continuity of all the books as a record of history through which God's relationship with mankind is described. Don't stop reading until at least the end of Acts. You could probably miss out the minor prophets without coming to any harm, but look online for a chronological guide, and read the books in that order.

The doctrine that salvation by faith does not include righteous works, is a lie. Not only Jesus, but James, John, Peter, and Paul, all preach that obedience to God's commands is essential to the exercise of faith. Faith which does not result in practical obedience, is meaningless. That's because the gospel is about salvation from the power of sin. While under the power of sin, we produced sins (bad works). Once free from the power of sin, we produce good works, because we are serving our Father in heaven, not, our old father, the devil. Matt 7:21, Mark 3:33, 34, 35. Note: this is Jesus' teaching. It has not been added by the apostles. All they have done is relay what Jesus taught them, to us.

Even the thief on the cross had a new right attitude to Jesus, and this came out in how he spoke both to Jesus and the other thief. The attitude of his heart towards sin, had changed and this is what Jesus acknowledged. James 3:11, 12.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God:

and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?

What do you think it means to 'obey the gospel of God'?

haz · Aug 19, 2012

Hi dragonfly,

My apologies for putting you in the same category as Epi and whitestone. True, you have not directly accused others here of lawlessness as they did. But your support for their doctrine and your subtle suggestions that others here, like myself, are lawless, led me to put you guys all in the same basket.

I don't know why you claim I said Christians are not under any law. Scripture clearly shows which laws are working in our lives (law of liberty, law of Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, law of faith). And, my having quoted 1John 3:23 (believe on Jesus and love one another) many times, you should recall.

Christians do obey the will of God (the gospel of God).
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;

Eph 5:17
Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.

And what are our works? It's the will of our Father.
John 6:29
that you believe in Him whom He sent

I agree that faith without works is dead. And clearly believing on Jesus is a work rejected by those who seek to be perfected by the flesh.
Unbelief, is mixing grace with works of self-righteousness. Grace and works don't mix, Rom 11:6, James 3:11. This is being lukewarm, Rev 3:15,16.

Episkopos · Aug 19, 2012

Unbelief, is mixing grace with works of self-righteousness. Grace and works don't mix, Rom 11:6, James 3:11. This is being lukewarm, Rev 3:15,16.

Lukewarmness is in the claiming of something one doesn't have. It is like the person who says I've done it but without having done anything.

You are seeing every thing through a skewed perspective. You do not see how you are re-orienting scriptures to suit your views. You fail at every turn to see that faith without works is dead as it is written in your own bible. You again confuse works of the law like circumcision with acts of faith.

There is a book in the bible called ACTS. You will not find a book called BELIEFS!

dragonfly · Aug 19, 2012

There is a book in the bible called ACTS. You will not find a book called BELIEFS!

Brother, you just made my day!

Hi haz,

I don't know why you claim I said Christians are not under any law.

It's because I read your post in Kidron's thread called; How to understand sin, now that you are a born again person....
http://www.christian...are-born-again/

I think it's worth re-reading it, to reflect on Episkopos' comment that you 'skew the scriptures'.

I agree that faith without works is dead. And clearly believing on Jesus is a work rejected by those who seek to be perfected by the flesh.

No, I don't think so. I think those who seek to be perfected by the flesh would claim to believe in Jesus, as well. The difference is, in this case, that you think believing in Jesus neither leads to a cessation from sin, nor good works, and you cover both of these by an array of BIble verses, mostly plucked from somewhere other than their original context.

'Believing on Jesus' is not a work. If you read John 6:30 you'll realise the people to whom Jesus was speaking did understand His reply - that they could do nothing without God. In other words, they could not copy God's 'works'. None of us can. But God has a plan for each one of us, which involves active obedience to His calling on our lives. This includes using the gifts of the Holy Spirit, 'given to every man to profit withal'. Eph 4:16.

Axehead · Aug 19, 2012

haz said:
Hi Axehead and dragonfly,

You worry so much over a 'lawless life' amongst Christians.

I am concerned about it because God is concerned about it, Haz. I care about what God cares about because He lives in me.

BTW, can you explain what is a 'lawless life'? What law are you speaking of?

A lawless life is disregarding the spiritual laws of God concerning sowing and reaping thinking that you are "covered" and "safe" and don't really have to be concerned about sin, because we prayed a prayer, live a good enough life and are members of the club (Christendom). That is lawlessness. Lawlessness is thinking that in the New Covenant there are only BLESSINGS and not CURSES, regardless of how one lives who is naming the name of CHRIST!

Lawlessness is FAITH without WORKS. The Thief on the cross HAD WORKS and every generation remembers the good confession that he spoke. The Faith in his heart was manifested when he rebuked the other criminal and confessed Jesus Christ publicly to all, that HE had done no wrong. That was a righteous work of declaration springing up out of that man's heart. And the fact that he was dying on the cross and he turns to another man who is completely emaciated and dying and being mocked by the throng, and he turns to this despised and rejected man and confesses that He is a LORD and has a Kingdom.

Haz, you completely miss the works of righteousness that God wrought in and through the thief on the cross by His Holy Spirit and have created your own doctrine of a "form of godliness" that seems to have no power to perform the works that God is after.

2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Just as the thief on the cross, all who turn to Christ have the firstfruit, Christ Jesus. This makes them righteous, holy, sanctified, perfected and without sin.

But your insistence that in this imperfect physical life we live now, perfect behavior (or almost perfect behavior as I understand dragonfly puts it) is needed as evdience of ones salvation, this is not even witnessed in the lives of of you and your friends here (including whitestone).

You are not answering my questions. You constantly resurrect your "strawman" of perfect behaviour.

If you ask any Christians here they will all say that their lifestyle has improved just as you guys claim yours has. BUT, the difference between us is that you guys claim this is evidence of salvation, whereas others here make no such claims. God does work in our lives and lifestyles do improve, but your argument that ones salvation is evidenced by a perfect lifestyle a misunderstanding of scripture.

Again, the "strawman" of perfect lifestyle.

Regarding James 2:14-26, our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29. And faith without works is dead.

So, our only "works" are to believe on Jesus? Then what does it mean to believe on Jesus. Could you explain what belief means to you?

Does it mean that Jesus existed, He is the Savior of Sinners and I believe He saves me? Is that what belief means to you? I am sincerely trying to understand since you say, "Works" are "Belief", what does your "belief" look like (not necessarily physically). Can you explain your belief?

But believing on Jesus is harder than it appears, as some still turn back to works of self-righteousness (although they won't call it self-righteousness) to be perfected by the flesh, Gal 3:3.

Yes, many turn back. What will happen to them?

In the following verses where the word "works" is mentioned, would you call these works of self-righteousness"?

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1Ti_2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1Ti_5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

1Ti_5:25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.
1Ti_6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

2Ti_3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Tit_2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tit_2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Tit_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Tit_3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Heb_10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Jas_2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas_2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas_2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Jas_3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
1Pe_2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Haz, in light of the previous scriptures, can you tell me if TRUE FAITH produces GOOD WORKS?

Also, have you thought about what JESUS was interested in and highlighted to the SEVEN CHURCHES in REVELATION? WORKS!!!

Rev_2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev_2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev_2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev_2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev_2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Rev_2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev_2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev_3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev_3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev_3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev_3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Is Jesus being self-righteous because He is focusing on WORKS?

Don't you see by now that if you continue to label everyone on this forum self-righteous who talks about Godly works, and works generated and produced by the Holy Spirit with man in union with God, then you have to call all the Apostles SELF-RIGHTEOUS because they spoke of WORKS!!

AND WORST OF ALL, YOU HAVE TO CALL JESUS CHRIST SELF-RIGHTEOUS because of His OBSESSION with WORKS.

Rev_2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

These works that Jesus is talking about are works that He is doing in and through His children, but some don't want to cooperate with Him and submit to Him and so they have created their own doctrine of "just believe".

Axehead

Hepzibah · Aug 20, 2012

Maybe I can throw in my understanding.

There have been two laws since the begining - the law of life and the law of sin and death. They are depicted in the garden of Eden where we know of course that Adam ate from the wrong one. The one is walking in the flesh and the other is walking in the Spirit. No other option - one or the other.

We draw our `power` from one of either sources. There is no in between, its black and white.

The problem that many believers have, is to think that the flesh is just the sinful nature. They think that coming to Christ for forgiveness of past sins, is the end of it but many have found out that their experience of walking in the Spirit does not match many scriptures.

Romans 6:6 says that the sin nature is destroyed yet they find that they are having problems with continuing sins, even though the sins themselves have changed. Its no longer addictions and whatever sinful lifestyle we led, but now are sins of the heart, They are now lack of love and devotion to Christ leading to doubts and fears.

What remains to be realized is that the flesh is also the workings of the human soul which may have good motivations, but they remain human. Christ is not being the actual source of all things. There is a mixture and such mixtures are dangerous as Paul describes in Romans 7.

There is a very easy way to tell which law we are under. The result of one is sin and the result of the other is holiness. It is not sinful lifestyle on one hand and aiming for holiness on the other. This is a bending of scripture. If one is walking in the Spirit there is no mixture. The sin nature is in actuality, dead. Thre truth is pure and simple. If we sin we are still operating from our human source and therefore walking in the flesh.

Walking in the Spirit means absolute purity. Mixture has ceased and this is the message of the whole of scripture for those who have ears to hear. It was banned in the OT and even more so now.

Many are in error because they believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that they came to Him once for forgiveness but they are in great danger of falling into the fires of hell if God gives up one day on them and lets go of His hold. It is true th at once we are saved we can feel secure so long as we remain in His hands but people, if you are still in the flesh you are not saved (from sin).

The distaste one feels when hearing this, is your alarm call. The devil does not want you to be saved.

haz · Aug 20, 2012

Hi Axehead and dragonfly,

Again, we differ in understanding on scriptures. You quote scriptures from the wrong perspective, that of being perfected by the flesh. I find your doctrine confusing based on the contrdictory claims made by you guys.

The likes of Epi, whitestone, Prentis, claim perfection is necessary (sorry Axehead, but there is no strawman argument as Epi, Prentis, whitestone have consistently claimed we must have perfect obedience, even though they have not acheived it themselves).
BUT, dragonfly and Axehead seem to suggest almost perfect is near enough. Perhaps you can confirm if this is true so as to differentiate yourselves from the likes of Epi and Co.

Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29. But it's seems that we differ on what this is.

For most believers here we believe that in Christ's one offering we have been sanctified (Heb 10:10) and perfected (Heb 10:14), we are righteous and holy (Rom 11:16).

But, based on what you and your friends have said, I understand that you don't believe this, claiming instead that unless this physical is perfect in behavior/lifestyle/obedience, then we are lost.

So, what happened regarding Christ's one offering in your life?
Mark s in the 'Sinless Perfection' topic questioned your doctrine in relation to Christ's one offering. Mark S said:

If Jesus' death did not provide forgiveness for all of your sins, then where will you obtain more forgiveness? You would have to crucify Jesus again, that that won't be happening.

I note you guys still sin, and you are still waiting for that righteousness/holiness/perfection in lifestyle/behavior as evidence. And, as Epi's own doctrine states, he is not abiding in Christ because he still sins.

If someone can't believe that in Christ they are righteous, holy, sanctified, perfected, and clean, etc, then that would count as unbelief. They have not ceased from sin.

As for the lifestyle you guys are so eager to judge everyone by, God works in each Christian's life to build them up. Let Him do it.

dragonfly · Aug 20, 2012

Hi Hepzibah,

There is a very easy way to tell which law we are under. The result of one is sin and the result of the other is holiness. It is not sinful lifestyle on one hand and aiming for holiness on the other. This is a bending of scripture. If one is walking in the Spirit there is no mixture. The sin nature is in actuality, dead. Thre truth is pure and simple. If we sin we are still operating from our human source and therefore walking in the flesh.

Walking in the Spirit means absolute purity. Mixture has ceased and this is the message of the whole of scripture for those who have ears to hear. It was banned in the OT and even more so now.

Many are in error because they believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that they came to Him once for forgiveness but they are in great danger of falling into the fires of hell if God gives up one day on them and lets go of His hold. It is true th at once we are saved we can feel secure so long as we remain in His hands but people, if you are still in the flesh you are not saved (from sin).

The distaste one feels when hearing this, is your alarm call. The devil does not want you to be saved.

That was very well put!

' If one is walking in the Spirit there is no mixture. The sin nature is in actuality, dead.' I would add 'to us'.

We are walking efficaciously in Christ's death; because by walking in the Spirit we are deriving our life from the tree of life, not from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which is 'mixture', as you said.

'But God forbid if I should glory save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ by whom the world is crucified to me and I to the world. For in Christ Jesus shall nothing avail .... but a new creation.' Gal 6:14, 15

Episkopos · Aug 20, 2012

Hepzibah said:
Maybe I can throw in my understanding.

There have been two laws since the begining - the law of life and the law of sin and death. They are depicted in the garden of Eden where we know of course that Adam ate from the wrong one. The one is walking in the flesh and the other is walking in the Spirit. No other option - one or the other.

We draw our `power` from one of either sources. There is no in between, its black and white.

The problem that many believers have, is to think that the flesh is just the sinful nature. They think that coming to Christ for forgiveness of past sins, is the end of it but many have found out that their experience of walking in the Spirit does not match many scriptures.

Romans 6:6 says that the sin nature is destroyed yet they find that they are having problems with continuing sins, even though the sins themselves have changed. Its no longer addictions and whatever sinful lifestyle we led, but now are sins of the heart, They are now lack of love and devotion to Christ leading to doubts and fears.

What remains to be realized is that the flesh is also the workings of the human soul which may have good motivations, but they remain human. Christ is not being the actual source of all things. There is a mixture and such mixtures are dangerous as Paul describes in Romans 7.

There is a very easy way to tell which law we are under. The result of one is sin and the result of the other is holiness. It is not sinful lifestyle on one hand and aiming for holiness on the other. This is a bending of scripture. If one is walking in the Spirit there is no mixture. The sin nature is in actuality, dead. Thre truth is pure and simple. If we sin we are still operating from our human source and therefore walking in the flesh.

Walking in the Spirit means absolute purity. Mixture has ceased and this is the message of the whole of scripture for those who have ears to hear. It was banned in the OT and even more so now.

Many are in error because they believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that they came to Him once for forgiveness but they are in great danger of falling into the fires of hell if God gives up one day on them and lets go of His hold. It is true th at once we are saved we can feel secure so long as we remain in His hands but people, if you are still in the flesh you are not saved (from sin).

The distaste one feels when hearing this, is your alarm call. The devil does not want you to be saved.

Amen Hep!! We are called to be sober and awake and seek after God through the Spirit. We are to exhort one another daily to pursue the good fight of faith and either get into or remain in the Spirit. This is seeking the kingdom and His righteousness that we abide in close proximity to Him...kept by His keeping power of grace in His love.

dragonfly said:
Hi Hepzibah,

That was very well put!

' If one is walking in the Spirit there is no mixture. The sin nature is in actuality, dead.' I would add 'to us'.

We are walking efficaciously in Christ's death; because by walking in the Spirit we are deriving our life from the tree of life, not from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which is 'mixture', as you said.

'But God forbid if I should glory save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ by whom the world is crucified to me and I to the world. For in Christ Jesus shall nothing avail .... but a new creation.' Gal 6:14, 15

Very good!!

To Haz!!!!!

Again, we differ in understanding on scriptures. You quote scriptures from the wrong perspective, that of being perfected by the flesh. I find your doctrine confusing based on the contrdictory claims made by you g

You misunderstood our message the way you misunderstand the bible message my dear Haz!!!

No one has said they are being perfected by the flesh. We are being perfected through Christ while IN the flesh. In other words we are not walking by a future hope but a quickened faith to seek after the power of the gospel which is by grace.

dragonfly · Aug 20, 2012

Hi haz,

Right here is your confusion:

If someone can't believe that in Christ they are righteous, holy, sanctified, perfected, and clean, etc, then that would count as unbelief. They have not ceased from sin.

The first sentence is correct. I agree with you. But.... only believing those effects of Christ's death, and not actually walking in them by not sinning.... also counts as unbelief.

Peter understands that to cease from sin means the flesh will suffer. Paul calls abstinence from the flesh, the 'mortification' of it. It's the same thing though, in the context of not sinning.

In order to enter an agreement with God that you will 'cease from sin', not only do you have to believe your own statement in the first sentence of my quote from your post, but you have to be baptised into Christ's death.

For many people who desire this baptism, true, deep, heartfelt repentance from 'the sin' life is experienced first, (as they hear the gospel and understand their own part in Christ's death), but for others, it's not until they attempt to 'walk in the Spirit', that (as Hebzibah noted) they begin to really understand the sinfulness of their own heart, and to understand why Christ had to die, to free them from it.

In other words, you, as an individual, cannot appropriate the benefits of Christ's death in a theoretical way, purely through being intelligent enough to understand the gospel with your fallen mind.

You have to give your whole being to Jesus Christ - heart, mind, soul, strength (of your body/flesh) - including all the things you 'think' are good or neutral - your whole being, and plunge into, or, receive - whichever seems more accessible to you - His whole death. He really died. You - the 'I' which orders the direction of each of your milliseconds - must lose your whole life into Christ's death and leave it there.

Only then can you begin to walk in real newness of life, where your whole perspective on sin is different from what it is right now.

All your questions about who (of us on CyB) believes what, serve to show us that your hope is not yet in Christ Jesus. Your natural man is looking for the right formula of do's, don'ts and beliefs, so that he can try to live a day longer without facing the awful reality that an innocent Man had to die for you to be able to be released from the power of sin which resides in you - not just your flesh. Your flesh serves you like a hand in a glove, and your flesh won't behave any differently until you, the hand, the guiding force, have lost your life in Christ's death.

This is what He was talking about in John 12:24. The seed is not functioning as it should, while it remains unburied in its grave. But once buried, a wonderful new life springs up, by which it is multiplied into more seed contained in fresh fruit. It is a miracle. Your life, buried in Christ, is supposed to result in a similar new life which does not resemble the visual appearance of the seed, nevertheless, bearing seed-bearing fruit. Your flesh will become the servant of God's will instead of your own, and you will bear the fruit of righteousness and holiness.

Once you see Christ as your great Deliverer from the power of sin, and you actually desire with your inner heart - your inner man - to be changed into His likeness - plunging into His death will seem like a great idea. Till then, you're in no-man's land.

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind:

for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

3 For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in

lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

Peter is saying they don't do any of that any more.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from

the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Episkopos · Aug 20, 2012

Axehead said:
I am concerned about it because God is concerned about it, Haz. I care about what God cares about because He lives in me.

A lawless life is disregarding the spiritual laws of God concerning sowing and reaping thinking that you are "covered" and "safe" and don't really have to be concerned about sin, because we prayed a prayer, live a good enough life and are members of the club (Christendom). That is lawlessness. Lawlessness is thinking that in the New Covenant there are only BLESSINGS and not CURSES, regardless of how one lives who is naming the name of CHRIST!

Lawlessness is FAITH without WORKS. The Thief on the cross HAD WORKS and every generation remembers the good confession that he spoke. The Faith in his heart was manifested when he rebuked the other criminal and confessed Jesus Christ publicly to all, that HE had done no wrong. That was a righteous work of declaration springing up out of that man's heart. And the fact that he was dying on the cross and he turns to another man who is completely emaciated and dying and being mocked by the throng, and he turns to this despised and rejected man and confesses that He is a LORD and has a Kingdom.

Haz, you completely miss the works of righteousness that God wrought in and through the thief on the cross by His Holy Spirit and have created your own doctrine of a "form of godliness" that seems to have no power to perform the works that God is after.

2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

You are not answering my questions. You constantly resurrect your "strawman" of perfect behaviour.

Again, the "strawman" of perfect lifestyle.

So, our only "works" are to believe on Jesus? Then what does it mean to believe on Jesus. Could you explain what belief means to you?

Does it mean that Jesus existed, He is the Savior of Sinners and I believe He saves me? Is that what belief means to you? I am sincerely trying to understand since you say, "Works" are "Belief", what does your "belief" look like (not necessarily physically). Can you explain your belief?

Yes, many turn back. What will happen to them?

In the following verses where the word "works" is mentioned, would you call these works of self-righteousness"?

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1Ti_2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1Ti_5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

1Ti_5:25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.
1Ti_6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

2Ti_3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Tit_2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tit_2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Tit_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Tit_3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Heb_10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Jas_2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas_2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas_2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas_2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Jas_3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
1Pe_2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Haz, in light of the previous scriptures, can you tell me if TRUE FAITH produces GOOD WORKS?

Also, have you thought about what JESUS was interested in and highlighted to the SEVEN CHURCHES in REVELATION? WORKS!!!

Rev_2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev_2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev_2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev_2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev_2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Rev_2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev_2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev_3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev_3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev_3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev_3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Is Jesus being self-righteous because He is focusing on WORKS?

Don't you see by now that if you continue to label everyone on this forum self-righteous who talks about Godly works, and works generated and produced by the Holy Spirit with man in union with God, then you have to call all the Apostles SELF-RIGHTEOUS because they spoke of WORKS!!

AND WORST OF ALL, YOU HAVE TO CALL JESUS CHRIST SELF-RIGHTEOUS because of His OBSESSION with WORKS.

Rev_2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

These works that Jesus is talking about are works that He is doing in and through His children, but some don't want to cooperate with Him and submit to Him and so they have created their own doctrine of "just believe".

Axehead

Brother I don't know how much clearer anyone can put it than that .

There is a phenomenon we deal with in regards to religious indoctrination. Indoctrination is a very difficult obstacle to overcome. Once the mind clasps onto an idea, especially if it is hypnotically repeated over and over again, anything that contradicts it will be seen as wrong even before the mind can properly hear what the new message is saying. It is like...first come first served for the brain. I hate it when preachers get people to repeat verses over and over again in order to brainwash their hearers into an indoctrinated grasp of what is true...but what is not meant to be grasped by a religious indoctrination of the mind. It takes an experience of the cross to be able to stop trusting our own minds and the deep ruts that continual repetition creates. O the deep work of God.

Axehead · Aug 20, 2012

[sub]Haz,[/sub]

[sub]Is there any other verses in the NT that you read, besides John 6:29? [/sub]

[sub]Axehead[/sub]

haz · Aug 20, 2012

Hi dragonfly, Axehead, and Epi

Our gospels differ greatly.
Your gospel requires perfect behavior as evidence of salvation, whilst for others here, like myself, we believe in the salvation as demonstrated through the thief on the cross.

Dragonfly's claim that not actually walking in perfect behavior (what you describe as righteousness/holiness etc) counts as unbelief, is unsupported in scripture.
And as you guys have not ceased from 'sin' yourselves, then your own doctrine shows that you are in unbelief.

The doctrine you offer denies the salvation that comes through Christ. You quote scripture without spiritual understanding and then use it to claim a re-badged works of self-righteousness. A process of being perfected by the flesh. This is walking in the flesh, of which there are many warnings in scripture that we must avoid. The deeds of the body have not been mortified under such doctrines. By these works Christ is being denied. This is unbelief.

Sin was dealt with once and for all on the cross. In Christ's one offering we have become righteous, holy, sanctified, perfected and without sin. Just as the thief on the cross likewise received. You guys however don't believe this until you see evidence of continual perfect behavior which you hope one day in the future to achieve. Under this doctrine your 'sin' remains due to unbelief.

Your accusation/suggestion that others here are lost if they do not follow your path, shows you clearly assume that others here are living some selfish/bad lifestyle. Yet from what you guys have shared here we see that your lifestyle is no better than ours.

BTW, a Christian's lifestyle/behavior does improve, as many here can testify to. And this will vary depending on where they are at, their growth, etc. But it is not the evidence of one's salvation. The thief on the cross confirms this (in spite of your misguided efforts to explain away this inconvenient truth).

Episkopos · Aug 21, 2012

haz said:
Hi dragonfly, Axehead, and Epi

Our gospels differ greatly.
Your gospel requires perfect behavior as evidence of salvation, whilst for others here, like myself, we believe in the salvation as demonstrated through the thief on the cross.

Dragonfly's claim that not actually walking in perfect behavior (what you describe as righteousness/holiness etc) counts as unbelief, is unsupported in scripture.
And as you guys have not ceased from 'sin' yourselves, then your own doctrine shows that you are in unbelief.

The doctrine you offer denies the salvation that comes through Christ. You quote scripture without spiritual understanding and then use it to claim a re-badged works of self-righteousness. A process of being perfected by the flesh. This is walking in the flesh, of which there are many warnings in scripture that we must avoid. The deeds of the body have not been mortified under such doctrines. By these works Christ is being denied. This is unbelief.

Sin was dealt with once and for all on the cross. In Christ's one offering we have become righteous, holy, sanctified, perfected and without sin. Just as the thief on the cross likewise received. You guys however don't believe this until you see evidence of continual perfect behavior which you hope one day in the future to achieve. Under this doctrine your 'sin' remains due to unbelief.

Your accusation/suggestion that others here are lost if they do not follow your path, shows you clearly assume that others here are living some selfish/bad lifestyle. Yet from what you guys have shared here we see that your lifestyle is no better than ours.

BTW, a Christian's lifestyle/behavior does improve, as many here can testify to. And this will vary depending on where they are at, their growth, etc. But it is not the evidence of one's salvation. The thief on the cross confirms this (in spite of your misguided efforts to explain away this inconvenient truth).

You can't control your own salvation method. You are not the thief on the cross...you are you. You can't choose your own role by pointing to the easiest way you've read about. Have you also decided to die on a cross?

Axehead · Aug 21, 2012

haz said:
Hi dragonfly, Axehead, and Epi

Our gospels differ greatly.
Your gospel requires perfect behavior as evidence of salvation, whilst for others here, like myself, we believe in the salvation as demonstrated through the thief on the cross.

Dragonfly's claim that not actually walking in perfect behavior (what you describe as righteousness/holiness etc) counts as unbelief, is unsupported in scripture.
And as you guys have not ceased from 'sin' yourselves, then your own doctrine shows that you are in unbelief.

The doctrine you offer denies the salvation that comes through Christ. You quote scripture without spiritual understanding and then use it to claim a re-badged works of self-righteousness. A process of being perfected by the flesh. This is walking in the flesh, of which there are many warnings in scripture that we must avoid. The deeds of the body have not been mortified under such doctrines. By these works Christ is being denied. This is unbelief.

Sin was dealt with once and for all on the cross. In Christ's one offering we have become righteous, holy, sanctified, perfected and without sin. Just as the thief on the cross likewise received. You guys however don't believe this until you see evidence of continual perfect behavior which you hope one day in the future to achieve. Under this doctrine your 'sin' remains due to unbelief.

Your accusation/suggestion that others here are lost if they do not follow your path, shows you clearly assume that others here are living some selfish/bad lifestyle. Yet from what you guys have shared here we see that your lifestyle is no better than ours.

BTW, a Christian's lifestyle/behavior does improve, as many here can testify to. And this will vary depending on where they are at, their growth, etc. But it is not the evidence of one's salvation. The thief on the cross confirms this (in spite of your misguided efforts to explain away this inconvenient truth).

Hi Haz,

All I can do right now is just leave you to yourself since you just keep "pasting" your same response to me without entering into any meaningful dialogue of the scriptures. Your standard response twists what we say.

Axehead

dragonfly · Aug 21, 2012

Hi haz,

I have a question.

If you have found the fulness of your heart's desire in Jesus Christ, and you are walking in the Spirit as you claim, why are you on CyB following Episkopos from thread to thread, and any other Spirit-filled believers where you can find them, moaning about the way they explain the life into which God has brought them?

If you are one of us, you should feel a deep sense of fellowship with us in the Spirit - as we do with others whose relationship with the Lord has delivered them also, from sin and the flesh and the devil.

haz · Aug 21, 2012

Axehead said:
Hi Haz,

All I can do right now is just leave you to yourself since you just keep "pasting" your same response to me without entering into any meaningful dialogue of the scriptures. Your standard response twists what we say.

Axehead

Hi Axehead,

Regarding your allegation that I twist what you guys are saying, I refer you to dragonfly's post #691 which confirms what I understand about your doctrine. There was no twisting of what you said.

Meaningful dialogue on scriptures was always going to be difficult because, as you said, it's like we speak 2 different languages. It's the Spirit within a person that gives them understanding. Quoting scriptures will either be understood if one is walking in the Spirit or rejected as foolishness if one is walking in the flesh.

Hi dragonfly,

When I first joined this forum about 2 months ago I noted Epi's attack against others here. He was always undermining their faith claiming that they were into fantasy for believing on Jesus. I questioned him on his doctrine and finally, after sifting through his ambiguous messages, I concluded that he was pushing works of being perfected by the flesh.

Scripture speaks of how we should encourage each other in the faith. Epi did the exact opposite, trying to undermine the faith of others and then leading into a similar doctrine as Gal 3:3 speaks of.

Whilst we both believe that the Lord has delivered us from sin and the flesh and the devil, we both see this differently. My hope and prayer is that we will agree and see that through Christ's one offereing sin has been dealt with once and for all. He has set us free from sin as the old man has been crucified. And he that is dead is freed from sin.

Episkopos · Aug 21, 2012

haz said:
Hi Axehead,

Regarding your allegation that I twist what you guys are saying, I refer you to dragonfly's post #691 which confirms what I understand about your doctrine. There was no twisting of what you said.

Meaningful dialogue on scriptures was always going to be difficult because, as you said, it's like we speak 2 different languages. It's the Spirit within a person that gives them understanding. Quoting scriptures will either be understood if one is walking in the Spirit or rejected as foolishness if one is walking in the flesh.

Hi dragonfly,

When I first joined this forum about 2 months ago I noted Epi's attack against others here. He was always undermining their faith claiming that they were into fantasy for believing on Jesus. I questioned him on his doctrine and finally, after sifting through his ambiguous messages, I concluded that he was pushing works of being perfected by the flesh.

Scripture speaks of how we should encourage each other in the faith. Epi did the exact opposite, trying to undermine the faith of others and then leading into a similar doctrine as Gal 3:3 speaks of.

Whilst we both believe that the Lord has delivered us from sin and the flesh and the devil, we both see this differently. My hope and prayer is that we will agree and see that through Christ's one offereing sin has been dealt with once and for all. He has set us free from sin as the old man has been crucified. And he that is dead is freed from sin.

My "attack" on others is, as I've said many times in different ways...the helping hand that a fish caught on dry land tries to avoid. I'm trying to help people in their walk. I may appear as a drill sergeant to some... but a drill sergeant is trying to help you survive in combat.

You quoted/......he that is dead is freed from sin.

Yes this is biblical...

He who has walked on the moon has experienced weightlessness

This is not biblical...but logical. An indoctrinated person cannot see how that last statement relates to the first. He just sees that the moon statement is not biblical therefore can be ignored. There is no reality check...just the swallowing of whatever has been ingrained in the mind through repetitive reinforcement.

There are a number of indoctrinated people on this forum. As long as we use bible phrases, the mind quickly switches to the pleasure verses. Now, as a brother, why would I want to encourage people to remain indoctrinated??? No one likes getting awakened out of a deep sleep. If you would promise me that you would not hold it against me on judgment day for not warning people about the folly of their stance...

dragonfly · Aug 21, 2012

Hi haz,

Your accusation/suggestion that others here are lost if they do not follow your path...'

Brother, you are responding humanly instead of spiritually. If you have your eyes on Jesus Christ and you are following Him intently, you are safely in 'the Way', and your role in His body is to do what He's told you to do.

If you have not noticed the false doctrines on CyB, perhaps it is not in your gift and ministry to help others at this time, to see what the Bible teaches about the correct way to understand the claim of Jesus Christ on one's whole life.

You have never been asked to follow one (or all) of us rather than Jesus Christ. But you, instead of a legitimate comparison between doctrines, have made the discussion into a comparison between men, which we genuinely try to avoid, because Paul said:

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves:

but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

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