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haz

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Feb 17, 2011
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Hi Axehead,

I agree there is indoctrination leading people into error.
And our debate has been specifically over lifestyle/behavior and whether an imperfect lifetsyle proves one is unsaved. You argue for a 'reality' of a perfect lifestyle as evidence of salvation. This is the 'indoctrination' we disagree on.
'Warning people about the folly of their stance'....should be in reference to believing on Jesus for salvation instead of works of perfect lifestyle (being perfected by the flesh).

Hi dragonfly,

I note in the OP 'Sinless Perfection' that you expressed ignorance over what determines excessive 'sin'. This view suggests you follow a complicated gospel.

Instead we find 'sin' was dealt with once and for all on the cross. The 'sin' that remains that the world is convicted of is the sin of unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.
 

dragonfly

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Hi haz,

I note in the OP 'Sinless Perfection' that you expressed ignorance over what determines excessive 'sin'.

Please check. I did not write the OP to Sinless Perfection.


Regarding 'excessive sin' (I have not re-read the OP of Sinless Perfection to see what was said there), let me comment that the phrase implies there is a level of sin which is acceptable. I disagree.

However ...

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much:
but to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loveth little.



Luke 7:41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both.
Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that [he], to whom he forgave most.
And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
 

haz

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Feb 17, 2011
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Hi dragonfly,

Excuse my probable misuse of the term 'OP'.

What I meant was under the topic 'Sinless Perfection', you said, in regards to some examples of bad behaviors/lifestyles:
" I have no idea how to weigh these things in eternal terms."

I was questioning how such thinking about the gospel applies when 'sin' was dealt with on the cross?
 

dragonfly

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Apr 19, 2012
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Hi haz,

Excuse my probable misuse of the term 'OP'.

What I meant was under the topic 'Sinless Perfection', you said, in regards to some examples of bad behaviors/lifestyles:
" I have no idea how to weigh these things in eternal terms."

I was questioning how such thinking about the gospel applies when 'sin' was dealt with on the cross?

Sin was dealt with on the cross from God's point of view, but it is not dealt with in our lives until we have accepted His terms through which we may enter a relationship with Him.

This is why Paul wrote:

2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

And:

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as

named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.


Before going further with this narrative, I want you to see the Mosaic Law equivalent.

Leviticus 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness:

both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Deuteronomy 22:22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die,

[both] the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.


1 Corinthians 5:3 - 5 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying [is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven...'


I hope that you can see Paul is not in any confusion as to the issues at hand in that situation.

He is not talking about a man and woman who are free to commit themselves to each other to become one flesh and remain one flesh. He is talking about the younger man's fornication, which also consists of adultery against his father's marriage, causing his father's wife to break wedlock with (commit adultery against) her husband. This is all very serious. This young man gave his father grounds to divorce his wife, entirely through walking in the flesh instead of the Spirit. This sin had deeply damaging, life-changing consequences for two other people.

Do you see that?


1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous,
or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


Paul says the man's local assembly of which he is/was part, is to discipline both him, and themselves also, through repentance. We know he means repentance, from verses in his following epistle to them, when he says:

2 Corinthians 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance:

for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.


What do you think he means by 'that ye might receive damage by us in nothing'? Please answer.


Later in the same epistle he exhorts others thus (to repent and get right with God):

2 Corinthians 12:21 [And] lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and [that] I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.


Through this correspondence from Paul, we see that sins committed after first receiving Christ have to be dealt with appropriately both in relationship to the people they affect, and in relationship with God, having an understanding of the eternal consequences should repentance (and thereby, a change in behaviour), not have been sought by the man who had sinned in that way.


My comment which you quoted from Sinless Perfection, was put in two contexts: 1) that in giving an example of the sin, the potential narrative is incomplete. This is in keeping with Mark's example of wanting to know whether one sin condemns a Christian eternally. Unless we know how they behaved after they sinned, how can we begin to suggest the eternal outcome? Ezekiel 18 offers direction, but the Holy Spirit is not in view in Eze 18, and He may be - if all my examples were of Christians. 2) In the end, the only person with the whole overview of an individual's life and heart, is Jesus Christ, and my first priority is the salvation of my own soul; as Paul said 'a conscience void of offence toward God and men'. Acts 24:16.

The great difference between the Atonement made with the blood of animals, and the Atonement made by the blood of Jesus Christ, is that there was no clearing of the whole conscience under the Mosaic law. All the apostles comment on this in the NT.

Thus, it is not biblical theology to separate the experience of a clear conscience in the believer, from the Atonement made by Christ.

In the same way, it is not bibical theology to talk of the Atonement made by Christ once in history, for the redemption of all creation, as if its benefits can all be imputed to the believer free from any respons(ibility) on the believer's part to show by walking in newness of life (the resurrection of Jesus Christ at work in his heart being outworked through his body Rom 6:4) that he is now free from the power of sin as well as forgiven.

If he sins again, he must repent, (have a change of heart towards that behaviour) and when he knows he has been forgiven, live differently from his heart. This is the application of the gospel to the individual's life, without which it is fair to question his salvation. Why? Because Paul is clear in Romans 6 that if we are reckoning ourselves dead to sin, the consequence of yielding our bodies (members) to righteousness, is the production of non-sinful actions leading to eternal life. He calls it fruit unto God - holiness.


Here is what Paul said about the difference between the Mosaic law with regard to conscience, and the righteousness of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

By this we see that even under the law of Moses, there was a genuine longing in the hearts of those trying to keep it - created by the awareness of sin which it brought - to be delivered from both the contol of the fallen nature, and, the consciousness of past sins.

It is utter nonsense to talk of being freed from the consciousness of sins one has not yet committed. God is not so daft. He is the rawest, keenest, most piercingly primitive realist about the state of the human soul, and because of that, He give His own blood to redeem us from death and forgive us our sins. This redemption is the very opposite of a carte blanche to sin.
 

Episkopos

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Imagine a cinema giving out free tickets for a movie. The people rush to get a ticket and then walk away joyful. A very few of those people actually walk INTO the cinema to see the show.

The atonement is like this. Although the atonement was made for all men....most just rush to get the ticket but fail to ENTER into Jesus.
 

haz

Member
Feb 17, 2011
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Hi dragonfly,

As I don't have as much time for forums as you have, I cannot afford the same lengthy replies explaining things in detail.

With many of the scriptures you have quoted, what you apply to the physical, I see it in the spiritual.

I will of course point out 1Cor 2:12-14 which tells us that scripture is to be spiritually discerned, but on this I suspect we may differ.

Your preference for seeing scripture speaking of physical lifestyles/behavior, leads to a doctrine which places great doubt whether one is saved in Christ as it depends on whether one's physical lifestyle was perfect.
This is not reality, as even those here like yourself, Epi and friends, in arguing for perfection in the physical, have not even achieved this.


I believe the account of the salvation of the thief on the cross was given to counter such doctrines of perfect behavior proving one's salvation.
 

Axehead

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Imagine you were invited to participate in a race. When the Starter yells, "ready, set, go" and then fires his starter's pistol, everyone begins sprinting, but you just take one step and stop, imagining rather, in your mind that you are racing buy physically you are doing absolutely nothing. What is happening ONLY in your mind is no proof to the spectators that you are a legitimate racer, and God who sees both the physical and spiritual is certainly not fooled.

The thief on the cross had many visible and auditory proofs that evidenced (to God and people) his FAITH was FOR REAL. Unless He spoke to Christ, nothing would have happened to him. Yet, he went further and spoke to the other criminal, also. The thief's behavior, while he was dying, was perfect.

Axehead
 

dragonfly

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Apr 19, 2012
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Hi haz,

If you are not going to offer the courtesy of reading the finer detail of the answers to your questions, please stop asking questions. It's clear you think you are saved - by the gospel which you have believed - and that's great, if it's true. All we are saying is, having been saved and being saved, has an effect on your heart, your mind, your inner man, and your soul. Since your body obeys, co-operates and reflects these parts of you, how your body behaves should also be different - unless you were brought up to have culturally and spiritually correct behaviour, regardless of your heart-state.

I could be wrong, but I think you really do not understand something about being saved. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

When you receive cleansing from your sins, your soul is purged more deeply than you were aware your soul even exists. Parts of your being are touched by God Himself, and you cannot believe He loved you so much that He died for you to be this clean.

What that means is, it doesn't matter what you did before by way of sinning - you could be a sex offender, a murderer, an adulterer, a fornicator, a sorcerer, an armed robber, a sodomite, a man of violence, a religious hypocrite, a liar (and so on) and through coming to Christ and being washed in His blood stop ALL YOUR SINS AT ONCE. Obviously, there are temptations, and new challenges, but what we are talking about is a radical change of heart towards sin which God ratifies by His cleansing of our souls, making us genuinely new people with a new outlook.

Nothing that you have ever written in these discussions even slightly hints that you have experienced this or believe it possible.
 

haz

Member
Feb 17, 2011
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Hi dragonfly,

As it is the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world is convicted of (John 16:9), why would you then determine anyone's salvation by any other measure? What other measure is there to determine one's salvation by, since the cross?

Sin was dealt with once and for all on the cross. That's where it finished once we turn to Christ (Rom 3:25. 1Pet 4:1, 1John 3:9). This is not judged on our physical lifestyle. Christ is in us, so the body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10).

Heb 6:1-6 shows how repentance is of dead works and that it is a once only event. To fall away and then seek repentance again would be like crucifying the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. But you speak of repentance of sin again, after coming to Christ. This is not supported in scripture. If someone repents and turns to Christ then there is no turning back. Repentance is a change of mind.

As for your concerns about lifestyle, I have said many times before that this improves for Christians. Where we differ is on your claim that it must be a perfect lifestyle as evidence of salvation.

Hi Axehead,

Regarding the thief on the cross, you have misinterpreted his 'perfect' behavior. What the thief did is what all Christians did when they came to Christ. Believe on Jesus. This is the 'perfect' behavior God seeks from us. This is our works (John 6:29).

Your claim that perfect lifestyle is required as evidence of salvation incorrectly implies that God is unjust in blessing the thief on the cross more than those who live for years after coming to Christ. God is not unjust.
 

dragonfly

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Hi haz,

In post #704 of this page, I showed you how Paul called for the fornicator in the Corinthian church - and quite a few others in the Corinthian church - to repent. We are led to believe that the early churches were full of Christians, not non-Christians.

Your doctrine may make you very happy, but until it lines up with Jesus' and the apostles' doctrine, you should be ready to adjust it to theirs.
 

whitestone

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So Haz,

It seemed good to me to read extensively of what you say here on this forum, as you've taken up quite the position against the saints in their message of the gospel.
I thought to learn more of what motivated you for the last few days.
It seems obvious to me now after reading your posts and your replies to these men whom I've come to easily recognize as Spirit guided brethren, So if you would be so kind, let me ask you a couple questions;

1) Is Christ Jesus Come into you and Living inside your body of flesh as the Holy Spirit in His Temple?

In other words, do you confess Jesus is Come in your flesh? (1 Jo 4:3)

(forgive me, but it seems evident you do not, whether because of doctrine or rebellion I don't know)

But if you think so, if you think that your Holy Spirit is in fact Jesus Himself Come into you, then here is the next question;

2) What sin(s) is it that Christ in you is powerless to conquer and overcome in your day to day life?
Is it adultery? Theft? Lying? What is the sin that you confess not being delivered from by Christ?

Amongst brethren here, you will find helping hands to pull you from the fire. Lord knows their hearts are right for this. But obviously as you've stated, you do not comprehend this 'kind' of righteousness. Which can mean you haven't known how to "receive" Christ into your body or how to ask Him to 'come'.

You seem to have an understanding of "imputed righteousness" as most folk claim, but none concerning how Christ Himself Lives Perfectly sinless within you. You are incapable of fielding questions about this. You immediately twist it to make it seem as though one of us is saying that the "righteousness" we speak of comes from ourself instead of Christs for some reason, then condemn everyone here for claiming their own righteousness!

This is it in a nutshell. This is the big question then, can you answer these two questions? We will all gain from this...

Your answers to these questions are simple yes and no, and will tell you about yourself. We are all here on the same team, that is, if we let ourselves.

Christ's righteousness in us... is it from us? Or is it from Christ?

We all say it is from Christ Jesus Himself who dwells within us, thinking breathing and having His Being in us, doing HIS works in us.

Do you confess that Christ Jesus is come in your flesh?

If so, does He not have the power within you to do His own Righteousness out from within you?

Peace,
Whitestone
 

haz

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Feb 17, 2011
271
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Hi dragonfly,

The early Christian churches had a mix of people similar to what we see today. And scripture shows that false doctrines were creeping in to some of them. When doctrines of works of self-righteousness (dead works) were creeping in, this is what the calls for repentance were concerning.

Hi Whitestone,

Here are my answers to your 2 questions.
1: yes, I have confessed Jesus. It is no longer I that lives but Christ lives in me.
2: there is no sin (John 8:36, 1Pet 4:1, Rom 6:7, 1John 3:9) as that was dealt with on the cross. My life is hid with Christ in God and therein lies imputed righteousness.

Our physical lifestyles are not the determining evidence of someone's salvation. God is working in each Christian's life and any who do wrong will not profit by it. There are Christians who show great improvements in lifestyle, growth and understanding. And then there are others who show little improvement in lifestyle and growth. But in the end their salvation is determined by their standing in Christ.

Also, I have no doubt that some professing Christians may show little improvement in lifestyle, and when their faith is tested they will fall away. And then there are others who do show good lifestyles but follow false doctrines of being perfected by the flesh, revealing their unbelief in Jesus.
Heb 10:26-29 speaks of such people.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,........
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Here, you see 'sin' as some bad lifestyle behavior.
I see the 'sin' spoken of here as self-righteous dead works (unbelief in Jesus).

You claim that I am in rebellion and need help out of the fire. This is your view based on the doctrine you follow. My concern for you however is that you seem to be in rebellion and in need of help out of the fire. You do not seem to accept that in Christ we are righteous, holy, sanctified and perfected and that apart from any physical evidence in lifestyle (just as the thief on the cross).

BTW, Epi gave his testimony which was similar to my own and no doubt also for some others here. Many on this forum have lifestyles improve since coming to Christ (but we do not claim this is the evidence required to confirm one's salvation). Yet you reject our standing in Christ because we do not follow your doctrine of perfect behavior as evidence of salvation.

My concern is that you do not know what the will of God is for us.

Eph 5:17
Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.

John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”


1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication (dead works of being perfected by the flesh).
 

mark s

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But if you think so, if you think that your Holy Spirit is in fact Jesus Himself Come into you, then here is the next question;

Hi Whitestone,

What exactly do you mean here? What is "your Holy Spirit"?

Can you perhaps be specific and clear in your answer?

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

dragonfly

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Apr 19, 2012
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Hi haz,

The early Christian churches had a mix of people similar to what we see today. And scripture shows that false doctrines were creeping in to some of them. When doctrines of works of self-righteousness (dead works) were creeping in, this is what the calls for repentance were concerning.

It's true the writer to the Hebrews refers to Mosaic-law-keeping as 'dead works' (for Hebrews) in the context of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It would also apply to any other 'religious' 'works' generally, devised by humans, (idolatry) but not commanded by God.

These latter could also be called 'works of the flesh' - into which Paul puts a significant list of sinful behaviours, which you seem to be intent upon ignoring.

By the way, repentance from dead works, would be appropriate if fornication was being acted out in compliance with worship of idols, as we see defined in Leviticus 18. In fact, fornication is a form of idolatry - in its case. it's self-worship.

There is no getting away from named sins in scripture. The longer you avoid this issue, the more it seems you are implicated by it. Do you think you're alone? Don't you realise Paul's exhortations apply to the whole human race? Here's a scripture to cheer you up..... :)

Jeremiah 44:19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
 

williemac

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Apr 29, 2012
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Hi haz,



It's true the writer to the Hebrews refers to Mosaic-law-keeping as 'dead works' (for Hebrews) in the context of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It would also apply to any other 'religious' 'works' generally, devised by humans, (idolatry) but not commanded by God.

These latter could also be called 'works of the flesh' - into which Paul puts a significant list of sinful behaviours, which you seem to be intent upon ignoring.

By the way, repentance from dead works, would be appropriate if fornication was being acted out in compliance with worship of idols, as we see defined in Leviticus 18. In fact, fornication is a form of idolatry - in its case. it's self-worship.

There is no getting away from named sins in scripture. The longer you avoid this issue, the more it seems you are implicated by it. Do you think you're alone? Don't you realise Paul's exhortations apply to the whole human race? Here's a scripture to cheer you up..... :)

Jeremiah 44:19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
Paul's exhortation?
Paul also said that the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh so that you do not do the things you wish. He also acknowledged that although in his mind he served and agreed with the law, there was/is an opposing force within him, in his body, that prevented him from living the kind of life he wished he could. This is the mindset that he called "walking according to the Spirit", of which therefore, there is no condemnation for those.

He made mention of the new man in his letters and exhorted those to put off the old man and put on the new man " which was created according to God in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph.4:24). In 2Cor.4:7, he said that we have this treasure in earthen vessels.."that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us".

So here is the deal. We have within us, by way of His seed in us, a new man who is that which makes us a new creation. But until the resurrection, we also carry within us the old nature from Adam. It is our aim to walk according to the new nature as much as possible, and walk away from the old nature as much as possible. But if this was by some kind of empowerment from the Holy Spirit, then why did Paul not mention it to the Ephesians in ch.4? For the same reason that you are here exhorting people towards a sinless perfection in this life. In doing so, you as much as admit that it is up to the individual to get it done, as Paul also alluded to in telling them to "put on" the new man.

You are simply using different language to say the same thing. There is a matter of personal resolve involved with getting to this so called sinless perfection. You can call it empowerment all you want. But if we can lay blame on anyone for failing in this arena, then we admit that there is a personal strength involved in the success. So this "empowerment" becomes a matter of one's choice, but not only that, a matter on ongoing daily relentless choices....because the influences of the flesh and of the sins of this world are real, very present, and very relentless. ....sounds like a lot of work, to me.

Nonetheless, it is a noble and commendable goal to walk in holiness. We should all be encouraged to do so. But I must add and even insist that if this is done for the right reasons, we will profit, and if it is done for the wrong reasons, the profit will be diminished. Do we do it to save ourselves? Wrong reason!!

As well, if anyone feels he is walking a sinless life in this world, I suggest he has a low opinion or definition of sin. And if the same feels his life is equal to the glory of God, then I suggest he has a low opinion or definition of God's glory. For as much as we fall short of His glory, it is because of sin. Having begun in the Spirit are we being made perfect in the flesh?

By the way, FYI, and all that, I am a Spirit filled man. I do not deny but rather enjoy the presence of Jesus and the Father within me thanks to the Holy Spirit. But the empowerment in my view, and taken from scripture, is to go forth and impart life and truth to my fellow man. It is not about me. Love does not seek its own. Life does not exist merely for its own sake. It flows outward for the benefit of others. It bears fruit...."against such, there is no law"

" My bretheren, inasmuch as you did it to the least of these, you did it unto Me" . This, my friend, is the point of empowerment. Love is the fulfillment of the law. Apart from love, the rest is just a loud, annoying noise.
 

Episkopos

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BTW, Epi gave his testimony which was similar to my own and no doubt also for some others here. Many on this forum have lifestyles improve since coming to Christ (but we do not claim this is the evidence required to confirm one's salvation). Yet you reject our standing in Christ because we do not follow your doctrine of perfect behavior as evidence of salvation.

Haz, a testimony is an ongoing thing we are building on daily. So maybe up to this point you have not experienced the power of resurrection and the effect this has on your behaviour, If you are truly born from the Spirit then that power is latent in you still. Turn to the Lord while offering Him everything you are and have.

I think we have all been through times or a time where our walk did not line up with our faith. Salvation is a process as well as an event. The answer is the cross and the power it has in dealing with the old sinful nature. It's a well kept secret that is spoken of plainly in the biblical testimony. :)
 

Axehead

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Hi Axehead,

Regarding the thief on the cross, you have misinterpreted his 'perfect' behavior. What the thief did is what all Christians did when they came to Christ. Believe on Jesus. This is the 'perfect' behavior God seeks from us. This is our works (John 6:29).

Hi Haz,

I was using the phrase that you like to use. What I mean by "perfect behavior" is wholeheartedness. The thief demonstrated "wholeheartedness" towards the Lord. There was no vacillation on his part at all. When Jesus told the rich young man that "If ye would be perfect", He was saying, "If you want to demonstrate a whole heart instead of a divided heart towards the Lord then sell all you have".

Your claim that perfect lifestyle is required as evidence of salvation incorrectly implies that God is unjust in blessing the thief on the cross more than those who live for years after coming to Christ. God is not unjust.

I think you may have me mixed up. I don't claim perfect lifestyle. I believe the Lord wants us to come to Him with ALL of OUR HEART and not to give place to any idols in our heart.

As far as "improvement of lifestyle", I have never said a Believer's lifestyle improves. In fact, the lifestyle of many believers becomes pretty bad if you look at it on the outward. They are persecuted, lose their jobs, thrown in prison, etc. That is not improvement of lifestyle. Becoming a Believer brings a much deeper change in an individual that has nothing to do with their lifestyle. It has everything to do with their attitudes and behavior because they have been given a new heart and joined to Lord's Spirit. This brings radical change because their old man has died and all things have become new in Christ.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Here you can see that "old man" and "body of sin" are synonymous. I believe it was Trekson (possibly) in some other thread that said the "old man" and "sin nature" were two different things. They are not, otherwise Paul would not have been able to follow-up with these words.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

And he certainly would not be able to say the following things if our OLD MAN had not DIED and the BODY of SIN Destroyed.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

The Bible is clear that a Born-Again Child of God is free from sin. We don't have to obey our lusts anymore because we have been set free and are no longer slaves of unrighteousness, having become slaves of righteousness (Christ).

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

This is a immediate action that is performed by God when we receive Jesus Christ. This alone brings a deep change in a person since the powers of darkness no longer have control and influence over an individual. He is set free and that freedom from the powers of darkness will be manifested in his speech and actions and the way he thinks, now.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Again, another verse that implies great change in one's life.

It is impossible to become a truly born-again Christian and have no testimony of deliverance from the powers of darkness.

We overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the Word of our Testimony and if one has no testimony then one does not have Jesus Christ.

Axehead
 

Hepzibah

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Hi Axehead
The Bible is clear that a Born-Again Child of God is free from sin.

Is there the necessity of a `second blessing` generally?
 

haz

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Hi Haz,

I was using the phrase that you like to use. What I mean by "perfect behavior" is wholeheartedness. The thief demonstrated "wholeheartedness" towards the Lord. There was no vacillation on his part at all. When Jesus told the rich young man that "If ye would be perfect", He was saying, "If you want to demonstrate a whole heart instead of a divided heart towards the Lord then sell all you have".



I think you may have me mixed up. I don't claim perfect lifestyle. I believe the Lord wants us to come to Him with ALL of OUR HEART and not to give place to any idols in our heart.

As far as "improvement of lifestyle", I have never said a Believer's lifestyle improves. In fact, the lifestyle of many believers becomes pretty bad if you look at it on the outward. They are persecuted, lose their jobs, thrown in prison, etc. That is not improvement of lifestyle. Becoming a Believer brings a much deeper change in an individual that has nothing to do with their lifestyle. It has everything to do with their attitudes and behavior because they have been given a new heart and joined to Lord's Spirit. This brings radical change because their old man has died and all things have become new in Christ.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Here you can see that "old man" and "body of sin" are synonymous. I believe it was Trekson (possibly) in some other thread that said the "old man" and "sin nature" were two different things. They are not, otherwise Paul would not have been able to follow-up with these words.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

And he certainly would not be able to say the following things if our OLD MAN had not DIED and the BODY of SIN Destroyed.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

The Bible is clear that a Born-Again Child of God is free from sin. We don't have to obey our lusts anymore because we have been set free and are no longer slaves of unrighteousness, having become slaves of righteousness (Christ).

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

This is a immediate action that is performed by God when we receive Jesus Christ. This alone brings a deep change in a person since the powers of darkness no longer have control and influence over an individual. He is set free and that freedom from the powers of darkness will be manifested in his speech and actions and the way he thinks, now.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Again, another verse that implies great change in one's life.

It is impossible to become a truly born-again Christian and have no testimony of deliverance from the powers of darkness.

We overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the Word of our Testimony and if one has no testimony then one does not have Jesus Christ.

Axehead


Hi Axehead,

You said: 'I don't claim perfect lifestyle.'
I realise only whitestone has claimed perfect lifestyle/behavior/obedience (what he calls sinlessness). I know you and your friends have not claimed this.

But, Epi and some others have claimed that perfect lifestyle/behavior/obedience is required as evidence of abiding in Christ. If this is not acheived eventually and consistently, then that soul will die. Epi even claimed others here were in fantasy when believing on Jesus without such perfect lifestyle/behavior/obedience.
Do you differ from such doctrine?

You said 'It is impossible to become a truly born-again Christian and have no testimony of deliverance from the powers of darkness'.

The thief on the cross had the testimony of turning to Jesus as Lord, believing on Him (John 3:18). He understood what the will of God is.
1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication.

Others however reject sanctification through Christ's one offering (Heb 10:10).
Instead they turn to (spiritual) fornication.
Examples:
Esau sold his birthright for a morsel of food. He was a fornicator, Heb 12:16

Israel turned away from the Lord and walked after vanity (Jer 2:5) committing 2 evils (Jer 2:13). They committed adultery with stones and with stocks (Jer 3:9).


Through Christ's one offering we have been sanctified (Heb 10:10). This happens immediately when someone turns to Jesus (thief on the cross).
But it seems that you might be agreeing with the likes of Epi who denies this. Instead he claims that sanctification, holiness, righteousness is not acheived until a process is completed which is evidenced by perfect behavior/lifestyle/obedience. This is unbelief, seeking to be perfected by the flesh. It's fornication, which we should abstain from.
 

Episkopos

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May 17, 2011
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Hi Axehead,

You said: 'I don't claim perfect lifestyle.'
I realise only whitestone has claimed perfect lifestyle/behavior/obedience (what he calls sinlessness). I know you and your friends have not claimed this.

But, Epi and some others have claimed that perfect lifestyle/behavior/obedience is required as evidence of abiding in Christ. If this is not acheived eventually and consistently, then that soul will die. Epi even claimed others here were in fantasy when believing on Jesus without such perfect lifestyle/behavior/obedience.
Do you differ from such doctrine?

You said 'It is impossible to become a truly born-again Christian and have no testimony of deliverance from the powers of darkness'.

The thief on the cross had the testimony of turning to Jesus as Lord, believing on Him (John 3:18). He understood what the will of God is.
1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication.

Others however reject sanctification through Christ's one offering (Heb 10:10).
Instead they turn to (spiritual) fornication.
Examples:
Esau sold his birthright for a morsel of food. He was a fornicator, Heb 12:16

Israel turned away from the Lord and walked after vanity (Jer 2:5) committing 2 evils (Jer 2:13). They committed adultery with stones and with stocks (Jer 3:9).


Through Christ's one offering we have been sanctified (Heb 10:10). This happens immediately when someone turns to Jesus (thief on the cross).
But it seems that you might be agreeing with the likes of Epi who denies this. Instead he claims that sanctification, holiness, righteousness is not acheived until a process is completed which is evidenced by perfect behavior/lifestyle/obedience. This is unbelief, seeking to be perfected by the flesh. It's fornication, which we should abstain from.

Haz, you have certainly set your sights low. Why is the lowest possible standard important to you? Are there loafers in the kingdom?