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Episkopos

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Can anyone be a Christian if they do not believe and/or accept what Moses wrote ? -winc

What in particular would one have to accept in the writings of Moses in order to be a Christian?
 

bosco

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You would have to accept all of it, but as a Christian-- that is, the way that Christ fulfilled it, taught it & transmitted it to His disciples.
 

dragonfly

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Hi Episkopos,

What in particular would one have to accept in the writings of Moses in order to be a Christian?

I have a few thoughts on this. One is that Jesus Christ came in fulfilment of a mountain of sure prophecy through the woman and men to whom God had spoken since the Fall; this is of relevance to a Christian's on-going faith. Another is - that for Jesus Christ to be recognised as an historical figure with a unique identity which fulfilled all prophecy about Him - He had to have a family with a genealogy. In this respect, Jesus was closely related to Moses and it's not surprising He threw into one of His parables - 'If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead', in that Moses prophesied of Him in no uncertain terms.

I do realise one can 'be a Christian' without any of this background, but I believe the background plays a part in renewing the mind.
 

Couppy

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Can anyone be a Christian if they do not believe and/or accept what Moses wrote ? -winc

I have been trying to figure out what exactly did Moses write. From my point of view Moses wrote about God, God's love for His people, and how God revealed himself to Israel. Apart from giving the ten commandments, was there anything else?

Couppy
 

dragonfly

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was there anything else?

A huge amount! It's not just what he wrote of the world's beginnings in Genesis, but the exercise of faith and his relationship with God which is recorded through Exodus - the first Passover, the crossing of the Red Sea, the refining of the Law, the confirming of Israel as a nation for the first time, the design of the Tabernacle, the development of the priesthood - and many key expressions of truth which Paul drew upon in his epistles.

Deuteronomy is full of prophecy, some of which is still being fulfilled today.

The man was awesome! And yet he was only a type of Christ.
 

Axehead

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If a new Christian rejected what Moses wrote because they believed he was a myth then God would correct that as the Holy Spirit begins to teach him the Word.

But, the OP did not imply this.
Can anyone be a Christian if they do not believe and/or accept what Moses wrote?

The OP implies that they know what Moses wrote and they have chosen not to believe or accept this. I still think if someone repented and believed on the Lord Jesus and truly received His Spirit, that the Spirit of God in him would soon adjust his thinking. The Great Interpreter would witness to this young Christian that the Pentateuch (First 5 books) were indeed written by Him (Spirit of God).

You don't have to know too much to enter into covenant with the Lord. Thank God we don't have to go to classes. I would guess most of us can't stand "seminars". And most of us just knew we were lost, desperate, sinful, doomed to hell and in need of Jesus (and we really did not even know what it meant to be born-again or all that the Christian life entailed. But God, quickly enrolls us in the His "School of the Spirit" and performs over time a total renewing of our minds.

Axehead
 
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Arnie Manitoba

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i know serious and devout Christians who do not believe what Paul the apostle wrote.

I still expect they will be "saved" .

They do not accept what Paul wrote .... because it appears to be at odds with other gospel accounts .... which of course is true because most of the gospels are written to a Jewish audience , and Paul focused teaching for the non Jewish audience.

I feel they can accept the gospels , reject Paul .... and still be saved. Their sin is not knowing how to read scripture in proper context.

Besides .... is it not fair to say that most of the Jews who knew the writings of Moses ....yet ... did not believe in Christ when He came .... thus missed out on salvation ..... the pharisees were a good example .... they were experts in Moses' laws .... right ?.

Even today we have devout believers who think the book of revelation is hogwash. Never mind what they think of Moses.

So ... yes .... i feel a person can believe in Christ and be saved even if they dismiss Moses.


================================

edit

an additional thought ..... do you know any Christians who do not believe in the literal 6 days of creation in Genesis?

...... plenty of them around. Are they saved ?

Moses supposedly wrote Genesis .
.
 

us2are1

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i know serious and devout Christians who do not believe what Paul the apostle wrote.

I still expect they will be "saved" .

They do not accept what Paul wrote .... because it appears to be at odds with other gospel accounts .... which of course is true because most of the gospels are written to a Jewish audience , and Paul focused teaching for the non Jewish audience.

I feel they can accept the gospels , reject Paul .... and still be saved. Their sin is not knowing how to read scripture in proper context.

Besides .... is it not fair to say that most of the Jews who knew the writings of Moses ....yet ... did not believe in Christ when He came .... thus missed out on salvation ..... the pharisees were a good example .... they were experts in Moses' laws .... right ?.

Even today we have devout believers who think the book of revelation is hogwash. Never mind what they think of Moses.

So ... yes .... i feel a person can believe in Christ and be saved even if they dismiss Moses.


================================

edit

an additional thought ..... do you know any Christians who do not believe in the literal 6 days of creation in Genesis?

...... plenty of them around. Are they saved ?

Moses supposedly wrote Genesis .
.

The gospel according to Paul has no discrepancies in it when set along side of Matthew, Mark, john, Peter, Jude.
Luke has discrepancies with all of the other accounts of the gospel. Luke and parts of the acts which Luke also copied and wrote in 160 AD are the total of discrepancies in the new testament.






.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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The gospel according to Paul has no discrepancies in it when set along side of Matthew, Mark, john, Peter, Jude.
Luke has discrepancies with all of the other accounts of the gospel. Luke and parts of the acts which Luke also copied and wrote in 160 AD are the total of discrepancies in the new testament..
never said they did .... I said some Christians disregard Paul because he often writes to a non Jewish audience and Matthew is written to a Jewish audience.

Not sure if they are still around , but in the 1980's there was a group who only used the book of John as the basis for all their knowledge. Not sure if I agree with that .... but I observed they had a "pure" Christianity without arguments or misunderstandings about all the other (hard to understand) stuff in the bible.

Out of curiosity ... do you believe the writings of Moses and his literal 6 days of creation ?

Do you agree that many Christians do not believe Moses , and are probably still saved ?
 

mjrhealth

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If you have never being to church, never read a bible, yet when someone told you about Jesus and you accepted what He did for you, then well you are saved, then if you have time its good to know the things of God, thats why christians spend so much time in conversation and prayer with Jesus, so they can know Gods will.

In All His Love
 

us2are1

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never said they did .... I said some Christians disregard Paul because he often writes to a non Jewish audience and Matthew is written to a Jewish audience.

Not sure if they are still around , but in the 1980's there was a group who only used the book of John as the basis for all their knowledge. Not sure if I agree with that .... but I observed they had a "pure" Christianity without arguments or misunderstandings about all the other (hard to understand) stuff in the bible.

Out of curiosity ... do you believe the writings of Moses and his literal 6 days of creation ?

Do you agree that many Christians do not believe Moses , and are probably still saved ?

Moses didn't write about a literal six days of creation. He wrote about a six thousand year creation which hasn't finished yet. He wrote about God creating a mature earth around six thousand years ago. He wrote about God's resting on the seventh Day which has not come yet but who's light is just about to dawn. Only those who have the Spirit of Christ are saved. Those who have the Spirit of truth know what the gospel is.

17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;
 

rand

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Hi Son or Man,

13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all truths.

I agree and I believe it with all that I am, but my question is this: why is it that not all people have the same truth? Not even all Christians believe the same truths. However, all these Christians believe that they believe the 'truth' that the Holy Spirit is guiding them into.

I personally believe the reason is that they have hardened their heart to the real truth and in their pride are trusting in their own knowledg more that they trust the word. I could give examples but I fear that would lead this debate in a direction it was not intended. So, I'm not trying to change the debate I just want to clarify what I'm talking about.

'By His stripes we are healed' That is what it says. Not all Christians believe it means what it says. instead they use other scriptures to prove it means we are healed in the spirit, not in the physical body. However, they don't give a verse that says we are healed only in the spirit, or we are not heald in the body. Some believe it is a promise of healing from God, some of us don't believe it that way. Does that make sense?

I guess what I'm asking here is how do we know for sure when we have the truth the Spirit reveals, and not just a truth that makes sense? Some truths won't make sense without revelation From the Spirit. That's why the world doesn't understand us.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Moses didn't write about a literal six days of creation. He wrote about a six thousand year creation which hasn't finished yet. He wrote about God creating a mature earth around six thousand years ago. He wrote about God's resting on the seventh Day which has not come yet but who's light is just about to dawn.

Do I believe anything you say ? NO

Do I believe everything Moses says ? YES
 

dragonfly

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Hi rand,


13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all truths.

I agree and I believe it with all that I am, but my question is this: why is it that not all people have the same truth? Not even all Christians believe the same truths. However, all these Christians believe that they believe the 'truth' that the Holy Spirit is guiding them into.

I personally believe the reason is that they have hardened their heart to the real truth and in their pride are trusting in their own knowledg more that they trust the word. I could give examples but I fear that would lead this debate in a direction it was not intended. So, I'm not trying to change the debate I just want to clarify what I'm talking about.

'By His stripes we are healed' That is what it says. Not all Christians believe it means what it says. instead they use other scriptures to prove it means we are healed in the spirit, not in the physical body. However, they don't give a verse that says we are healed only in the spirit, or we are not heald in the body. Some believe it is a promise of healing from God, some of us don't believe it that way. Does that make sense?

I guess what I'm asking here is how do we know for sure when we have the truth the Spirit reveals, and not just a truth that makes sense? Some truths won't make sense without revelation From the Spirit. That's why the world doesn't understand us.
Enjoyed your post. What you said about healing is very valid. I believe in both healing of the body, and the spirit, and, restoration of the soul.

I think the reason that people seem to believe 'different' truths, is manifold. It takes a very thorough thinker to sort through the differences between what they think they believe because they think a certain tennet is part of what it means to be a Christian, (It could be a doctrine, or, a particular interpretation of a passage in scripture.) from what they believe because they know God gave revelation to their understanding.

It seems to me that God has His own priorities with each of us as individuals, and He causes us to address things in the order that pleases Him, regardless of what He is causing another brother to confront. The witness of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, will inform us whether He is in agreement with what another puts forward as 'revelation'. The Holy Spirit recognises truth instantly, and we have to accept His guidance, I think, especially when it seems that a person's testimony makes no sense to us. God is trying to bring us all through to wholeness in Himself, and as He works in our lives, He builds more carefully and with greater sustained attention than we are capable of comprehending, imho.

Generally speaking, people who have had the same experience (at least in a measure), will give a similar testimony. Even then, the background of their lives and how they used to think will greatly affect the emphasis they bring to their account of God's work and how they understand it.
 

us2are1

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Hi Son or Man,

13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all truths.

I agree and I believe it with all that I am, but my question is this: why is it that not all people have the same truth? Not even all Christians believe the same truths. However, all these Christians believe that they believe the 'truth' that the Holy Spirit is guiding them into.

I personally believe the reason is that they have hardened their heart to the real truth and in their pride are trusting in their own knowledg more that they trust the word. I could give examples but I fear that would lead this debate in a direction it was not intended. So, I'm not trying to change the debate I just want to clarify what I'm talking about.

'By His stripes we are healed' That is what it says. Not all Christians believe it means what it says. instead they use other scriptures to prove it means we are healed in the spirit, not in the physical body. However, they don't give a verse that says we are healed only in the spirit, or we are not heald in the body. Some believe it is a promise of healing from God, some of us don't believe it that way. Does that make sense?

I guess what I'm asking here is how do we know for sure when we have the truth the Spirit reveals, and not just a truth that makes sense? Some truths won't make sense without revelation From the Spirit. That's why the world doesn't understand us.

Yes it makes total sense.
Most people fixate on what interests them the most. This includes scripture and of course the lies about scripture that circulate through the christian communities. It mostly boils down to their own lusts and needs. Those who truly Love the Lord fixate on Him and are led into His deep truths that no one is willing to hear.
 

Adstar

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May people unfortunatly use the Bible as a kind of smorgasboard accepting some parts and rejecting other parts depending on their own measure of what should be and what should not be the message of God.

When people do they all they are doing is creating a relifon in their own image. I guess people can go read the books of 20 different religions and come up with a personal composite personal religion that suits themselves, But all they are really doing is declaring themsleves god by making a religion that conforms to their own measure.

Being a Christian is about accepting in trust the Words of God as delivered by the prophets.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

aspen

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I really dislike the 'buffet' analogy when describing some people's method of reading the Bible or listening to a sermon. As if, people are purposely rejecting the healthy items and gorging on the desert....The fact is, we can only use information that we understand in the context of our lives and worldview - who is another person to judge what one person emphasizes and another person may not use at the moment?

God's Word is like a multi-vitamin; our bodies only use what it needs at the moment.- our minds only pick up on relevant ideas and scripture in the moment - doesn't mean the same person will always pass up the same truths again.
 

Adstar

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Apologies for the terrible typing of my last post. I wish i edited it.

Quote
who is another person to judge what one person emphasizes and another person may not use at the moment



Let each person Judge themselves upon receiving knowledge.

And let the warning givers give their warnings.

For if a warning giver withholds a warning their conscience towards God is telling them to give, then they are in rebellion against God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

dragonfly

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The fact is, we can only use information that we understand in the context of our lives and worldview

While this is true, God's idea is that we adopt His worldview in all its fulness, asap.