The Role of the Anti-Christ

MR ROSENBERGER said:

And if there were many strong Christians the Anti-Christ would not have a hope of coming about , now would he ?
So today people are so weak and the time is ripe.
We in Australia have a PM leader who is not only not married but a full on Atheist and the people just sit back and let this nonsense happen. and we can not say anything Christian for fear of, offending the trash it wants to live hear. due to there PC fascist madness.

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The coming Antichrist will not be a flesh born man. That's been one of the problems in the Church in the past with many looking for some flesh man coming in that role. The role is specific per Scripture that the coming Antichrist will work miracles on earth like God would, and succeed with deceiving the majority of the world into thinking he is God, including orthodox Jews and Christians. Only Satan himself could do that, which is why that role is reserved for him.


Rev 12:7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(KJV)

veteran said:

The coming Antichrist will not be a flesh born man. That's been one of the problems in the Church in the past with many looking for some flesh man coming in that role. The role is specific per Scripture that the coming Antichrist will work miracles on earth like God would, and succeed with deceiving the majority of the world into thinking he is God, including orthodox Jews and Christians. Only Satan himself could do that, which is why that role is reserved for him.


Rev 12:7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(KJV)

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The role is in play now. me thinks. Dear veteran.
I have always thought of a man like Hitler at the head but it's the works in play that are at the foremost.

MR ROSENBERGER said:

The role is in play now. me thinks. Dear veteran.
I have always thought of a man like Hitler at the head but it's the works in play that are at the foremost.

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The event of 2 Thess.2:3-4 and the setting up of the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel has not happened yet. The time of the "strong delusion" is still yet to come, and that will occur when the devil himself comes to this earth with his angels, per the Rev.12:7 forward Scripture. As of right now, and from ancient times, the many antichrists have already been here at work for him, and that's the point you're talking about, the 'forerunners' of the Antichrist.

No flesh born man will be able to work the miracles and wonders Satan will do as the coming false messiah to play God on earth. Many seem to forget the prophecy that the majority of the world is going bow to him thinking he is God, which includes deceived Christian brethren and even Orthodox Jews. And you ought to know the Orthodox Jews would be the most difficult to convince, for they are looking for the coming of Messiah, not another Hitler type nor some Islamic messiah. And that's the kind of event the Scripture is pointing to, a pseudo Christ working miracles and wonders that would almost deceive even Christ's own elect (as per Matt.24:23-26).

MR ROSENBERGER said:

I have always thought of a man like Hitler at the head but it's the works in play that are at the foremost.

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I expect that as well.

Hitler captured and mesmerized the German people to a very high degree. His initial ideas and plans were seen as good. He was the savior. Can you imagine the popularity he would have had if he was able to perform a few miracles . The whole world would follow him.

I think that the leader to come (antichrist) will have a magnetizing personality similar to the original Hitler as well as being able to perform acts of the supernatural (to prove to the world he is a god.)

We even got a glimpse of the adoration a man can receive in modern time when Barack Obama became president. A good portion of America practically worshiped the guy , and when he traveled Europe they drooled all over him. A handsome blend of black and white race , nobody knows if he is muslim or christian , can you imagine if he had performed a few miracles , maybe united Islam and Christianity into a new religion , guaranteed peace for Israel , and supplied a financial solution for the world ??

Then if he could obtain support from the pope he could add another billion people in an instant. Its just that easy , the minds of the people are captured very easily. Hitler knew that.

Once he (antichrist) starts demanding worship some people will put the brakes on , but the majority will follow with adoration and worship.

It was Winston Churchill alone who saw the evil in Hitler early on , and he was ridiculed .

Only a few Christians today see clearly where the world is heading. And they are ridiculed.

Some things never change.

.......................

At the end of his life Winston Churchill was being interviewed and was asked some deep probing and personal questions about his purpose and his life accomplishments. He replied ....

"...... "It was my destiny .... My Creator placed me here for a specific purpose .... and I have accomplished it .... "

Shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:

Hi Arnie, I agree with your assessment. I too have said the same things about Obama. I believe he is a modern day type for what we are to look for. I mean, as you pointed out, how can a guy do absolutely nothing, yet have an 85% global approval rating.

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It's called "playing with the numbers." He just has numbers men, statistical manipulators, that change the true rating by playing with the numbers. Tell a big lie often enough...

Shalom, again, Trekson.

Trekson said:

Hi Veteran, Your words: The coming Antichrist will not be a flesh born man.

I disagree with you on this one. I believe he will be human but will be fully possessed by satan when he is killed and raised up the third day. I believe vs. 12 takes effect at the point of Rev. 13:3.

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The "antichrist," or rather the "beast," will be fully human; sure, he'll be a "flesh born man!" HaSatan does NOT have the ability to "kill him and raise him up the third day!" That is a CREATIVE act that only the God of gods, El Elyown, YHWH can perform! You're giving haSatan the very credit he so desires - to BE AS GOD! Don't fall prey to his lies and fall into that trap!!! He is not the "yin" to God's "yang" (or vice versa)! He is NOT the "anti-God!" He's the "HOLE IN THE DONUT!" If righteousness is the donut, sin is the hole in the doughnut! It's the LACK of righteousness! Only GOD is the Eternal Substance!

THINK ABOUT IT!

*****

Shalom, Mr. Rosenberger.

MR ROSENBERGER said:

And if there were many strong Christians the Anti-Christ would not have a hope of coming about , now would he ?
So today people are so weak and the time is ripe.
We in Australia have a PM leader who is not only not married but a full on Atheist and the people just sit back and let this nonsense happen. and we can not say anything Christian for fear of, offending the trash it wants to live hear. due to there PC fascist madness.

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That depends on what a "strong Christian" is. While I'm sorry about what you have to face there in Australia, remember what Yochanan (John) said was an "antichrist" or who was demonstrating the "spirit of antichrist":

1 John 2:18-23
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
KJV

1 John 4:1-4
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
KJV

2 John 5-7
5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
KJV

When one comes to understand that "christ" means "anointed one" just the same as "messiah" does, then one comes to under stand these statements as "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Messiah? He is anti-Messiah, that denieth the Father and the Son," "Every spirit (attitude) that confesseth that Jesus the Messiah is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit (attitude) that confesseth not that Jesus the Messiah is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit (attitude) of anti-Messiah, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world," and "many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus the Messiah is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an anti-Messiah."

So, I ask you this: How many "strong Christians" understand that "Messiah" is the Jewish Messiah promised first to Isra'el to be their King? How many "strong Christians" recognize that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah? How many "strong Christians" are not opposed to a Jewish Messiah? Perhaps, the "spirit" or attitude of being opposed to the Messiah is ALREADY among us!

Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:

Paul is SPECIFICALLY talking to believing Gentiles with saying that "commonwealth of Israel" phrase to point to Christ's Church which they had become part of. Anyone not of that particular "commonwealth of Israel" Paul mentions is cut off from Christ's Church. So yes, that phrase is a LABEL that represents Yehovah's Israel under Christ Jesus, His Church. The idea of a label is neutral; it's what a label represents where meaning originates, so your words against the mere word label is a straw man argument.

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It's hardly a "straw man argument." Just look objectively at what you wrote above! What a "convenient" way for you to change the "citizenship of Isra'el" into a phrase that means "becoming a part of Christ's CHURCH!" ?? What in the world is THAT all about?! Can you not see how that you've turned the phrase into something that was NOT originally meant by turning it into a label and then re-defining the label?! Sheesh!

veteran said:

The ten tribes of Israel that were scattered primarily to the West and became the "multitude of nations" per the Gen.48 prophecy to Ephraim, do represent that "commonwealth of Israel" today, which is why it was with them that Christ established His Church centuries ago. But they are not alone, as all believing Gentiles everywhere have been graffed in also, which is why it is a label for Christ's Church, and NOT the nation state of Israel in the holy land today which houses a majority of unbelievers.

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So, now we're going to make a "multitude of nations" into a label so we can re-define that one, too?! Which is it: Have you no shame? or Have you no sense? READ FOR UNDERSTANDING!!! Let the Scriptures speak to YOU; don't put your words into what you're reading! The former is exogesis; the latter is eisogesis.

veteran said:

Levites there is not only about blood Israelites. Otherwise Christians leaders today that lead astray would be walking with the Zadok who will serve Christ in His Presence then. The fact that the Zadok represent the righteous elect priests that will reign with Christ then reveals this cannot be tied to bloodline seed theories, even though David himself will be our prince then too.

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Salami, Salami, BALONEY!

Have you heard about the politician that was promising the moon to the native American tribe in a speech while the people were cheering, "Hoyadah! Hoyadah!"?

Feeling very proud of himself after his speech, while he and the chief of the tribe were walking back to the chief's house, the chief quickly grabbed his arm and said, "Careful! Don't step in hoyadah!"

I feel the same way when I see you misusing the terms "Levites" and "sons of Zadok." That's "hoyadah," brother!

veteran said:

And yet, the Ezek.44 Scripture reveals the Levites are saved, yet not allowed to approach Christ in that time, but ONLY the Zadok may approach Christ then. And that Scripture is clear that the Levite priests will bear their iniquity by those duties assigned to them. Thus they are under a probation in that time. It is in that... sense, that they are still cut off.

Rev.20 gives more detail about that difference too, with those of the "first resurrection" vs. everyone else. Only those of the first resurrection will reign with Christ as kings and priests. That means everyone else will STILL be subject to the "second death".

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No, you've GOT to be more careful in what you read! "YHWH" is God the Father, the "Prince" is the Messiah, "Sar Shalom," the "Prince of Peace."

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, veteran.


It's hardly a "straw man argument." Just look objectively at what you wrote above! What a "convenient" way for you to change the "citizenship of Isra'el" into a phrase that means "becoming a part of Christ's CHURCH!" ?? What in the world is THAT all about?! Can you not see how that you've turned the phrase into something that was NOT originally meant by turning it into a label and then re-defining the label?! Sheesh!

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I didn't change the citizenship of Israel, our Lord Jesus Christ did. Those who refuse Him are doomed to perish, like He said. That's why I believe the true elect of the seed of Israel will eventually come to believe on Him as God The Saviour.

The "commonwealth of Israel" is terminology by Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2, not from me. All I did was to REMIND you of it and how Paul applied it there to believing Gentiles on Christ Jesus, which apparently you have a problem with. So you need to get your facts straight before going off on some ignorant tangent.

So, now we're going to make a "multitude of nations" into a label so we can re-define that one, too?! Which is it: Have you no shame? or Have you no sense? READ FOR UNDERSTANDING!!! Let the Scriptures speak to YOU; don't put your words into what you're reading! The former is exogesis; the latter is eisogesis.

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No mystery about the "multitude of nations" prophecy to Ephraim from God through Jacob (Gen.48). It means ISRAELITE nations (plural), and not the nation state called Israel in the middleast either. That's why the Western Christian Nations since The Gospel have possessed the best land resources and blessings of plenty, controlled the gates of their enemies, house the multitude of the seed of Israel via the migrations of the ten tribed house of Israel, and possess Christian kings and queens upon thrones, and most importantly are the main possessors and benefactors of preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ to the nations.

Sorry you hate all that; doesn't change the reality of it though. God didn't give His Birthright to the Jews, He gave it to the sons of Joseph whose son Ephraim became head over the ten tribed house of Israel (1 Chronicles 5).

Trekson said:

For satan to possess the body of the a/c, all he has to do is move his own spirit into that body and that act will quicken the lifeblood of the fleshly body in restoration, thus no act of creation is needed.

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I know many believe that's how the Antichrist will manifest, but that's not how the prophecy is written. The final Antichrist role is reserved for Satan himself in person on earth. He himself is coming here once Michael boots him out of the heavenly (Rev.12:7 forward).

That is how he will deceive the majority of the whole world into thinking he is God, and they will worship him as God because of the miracles and wonders he's going to do in person here on earth in the sight of men.

There's only two dimensions of existence, this earthly dimension we live in, and the heavenly dimension where God and His angels are, which is also where Satan and his angels are but in a place of separation in the heavenly apart from God (shown by our Lord Jesus in Luke 16, and by Peter in 1 Peter 3:19, and by Satan's casting out of the heavenly per Rev.12:7-9). So if he is de facto cast out of the heavenly, that leaves only one other place he can go to, this earthly dimension we live in.

This event is hard-linked to how Satan first rebelled against God in the world that then was. In Rev.12:3-4 we were shown a beast kingdom he had when he drew a third of the stars (angels) into rebellion with him in that time of old, and it had only seven crowns. The reason why our Lord gave us that beast kingdom example related to Satan's first rebellion was so we'd understand how God is going to allow Satan to do that kind of rebellion again with the end days Rev.13:1 beast kingdom that has ten crowns instead, which is the world system being setup over all the earth today in prep for Satan's coming.

Son of Man said:

That is the reason for the resurrection from the dead. They were in heaven before they died and from heaven they will be brought back to life from death. There is no consciousness in death. No life at all. Only the living are in heaven. Written in the palm of God. Sealed By The Spirit Of "The Living God" for the day of redemption.
Matthew 22
32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.".

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Those who are written in the palm of God will be brought back to life when Christ returns.In a moment, In the twinkling of an eye, In a flash of Lightning.

24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Shalom, "Son of Man."

Son of Man said:

Those who are written in the palm of God will be brought back to life when Christ returns.In a moment, In the twinkling of an eye, In a flash of Lightning.

24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

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Sorry, but you've misunderstood the lightning analogy. Yeshua` was not saying that He was returning as quickly as a flash of lightning; He was saying that His coming was going to be that OBVIOUS as lightning flashing in the dark at one horizon and being so bright that it is reflected by mountains near the opposite horizon!

And, why pull the "2 Peter 3:8" card? It doesn't have anything to do with the passage in Matthew 24!

Strong Christians as in tightly knit in Christ. as opposed to loose, weak Christians. as ones who do little, like thinking it been done and dusted, go back to sleep types. i am saved so why bother types.
So there are people 'in Christ' do and obey. and others say Lord Lord ! and only that.

Hi Trekson,

Trekson said:

Hi Faithful, I think I agree with most of what you wrote but assuredly you know the a/c will have great influence on unsaved people. That's how he will rise to power. The church has nothing to fear from him, except for the trials and tribulations of being persecuted for our beliefs, but with that comes great rewards.

You asked this question: "What authority, seat and power has Satan got?"

He has the keys to the kingdoms of this earth. He is presently the ruler of this earth ceded to him by Adam. That is why he was able to tempt Christ in this manner: Matt. 4:8-9 - "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
[sup]9 [/sup]And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me."

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What good does it do a man if gain the whole world but loseth his soul?

Satan may have have control over the physical earth but has never had control over life and death or who goes to heaven or hell. "Fear not those who kill the body but rather fear God who after death has the power to throw both body and soul into hell.
There is no Keys to the earth. It has been in decay and suffered death and sickness since the fall. It is a fallen world.
But Christ by his death and resurrection is now the one person who is the way for the soul to be saved from Adams sin.
He is the way by which death and hell cannot hold the human soul.

Satan could tempt Christ because like Adam he was a human being. Adam had no sin and neither did Eve when tempted.
So Satan could tempt everyone but not God. So what does he really have to rule? Christians belong to God and those who do not belong to Christ still have to face judgement. Do you think that Jesus was wrong when he said that the prince of this world has already been judged?

John 16:11
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

A prince not the King because the world and everything in it, belongs to God.

1 Corinthians 10:26.


[sup]26 [/sup]For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

We need to realise that God never lost ownership of his world. Man fell and the became cursed. But Satan has no power if man does not exist. He is subject to God and his will. Satan never made God fall in any way or won any kind of bet.
He simply made man sin. God still have power over all of his creation. But everything must run it's course and Satan has already been judged. Prince of this world but never king.

Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:

I didn't change the citizenship of Israel, our Lord Jesus Christ did. Those who refuse Him are doomed to perish, like He said. That's why I believe the true elect of the seed of Israel will eventually come to believe on Him as God The Saviour.

The "commonwealth of Israel" is terminology by Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2, not from me. All I did was to REMIND you of it and how Paul applied it there to believing Gentiles on Christ Jesus, which apparently you have a problem with. So you need to get your facts straight before going off on some ignorant tangent.

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Yeshua`, who is both God's Messiah to be Isra'el's King and Master of us His servants, changed NOTHING! What changed was God opening the door for Goyim to provoke Isra'el to jealousy and to become grafted into the same "Olive Tree" which was/is Isra'el as it was meant to be under David and under the Son of David. However, Goyim (Gentiles) were grafted in PRECISELY for that purpose - to provoke Isra'el to jealousy!!! Strictly speaking, there is NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE that Isra'el will eventually come to believe on the Master, Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym as "God the Savior!" Indeed, there is not one verse in Scripture that requires one to see our Master, Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym as "God the Savior!" He is the SON OF God, and He will be the Savior when He rescues (saves) His people from oppression!

As I've said before, "salvation" is the WRONG WORD when it comes to one's personal relationship with God! Such a relationship with God is called "being justified by God!" "Salvation," particularly in prophecies, refers to the "rescue" of His people Isra'el (all twelve tribes + Levites) when Yeshua` comes again! That is KEY and CRUCIAL to this discussion!

The "church" is not the catch-all basket into which all believers fall. National Isra'el is the catch-all basket! Believers in the churchES are mostly believing Goyim. Believing Isra'el is IN ADDITION TO these churches! And, BOTH shall be placed into the Messiah's Kingdom when He has established it after the rest of the 70th Seven is fulfilled!

Therefore, to suggest that the "citizenship of Isra'el" is anything else IS to change that "citizenship!"

veteran said:

No mystery about the "multitude of nations" prophecy to Ephraim from God through Jacob (Gen.48). It means ISRAELITE nations (plural), and not the nation state called Israel in the middleast either. That's why the Western Christian Nations since The Gospel have possessed the best land resources and blessings of plenty, controlled the gates of their enemies, house the multitude of the seed of Israel via the migrations of the ten tribed house of Israel, and possess Christian kings and queens upon thrones, and most importantly are the main possessors and benefactors of preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ to the nations.

Sorry you hate all that; doesn't change the reality of it though. God didn't give His Birthright to the Jews, He gave it to the sons of Joseph whose son Ephraim became head over the ten tribed house of Israel (1 Chronicles 5).

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You truly don't understand Beresheeyt 48 and 49:

Genesis 48:8-49:28
8 And Israel beheld Joseph's sons, and said, Who are these?
9 And Joseph said unto his father, They are my sons, whom God hath given me in this place. And he said, Bring them, I pray thee, unto me, and I will bless them.
10 Now the eyes of Israel were dim for age, so that he could not see. And he brought them near unto him; and he kissed them, and embraced them.
11 And Israel said unto Joseph, I had not thought to see thy face: and, lo, God hath shewed me also thy seed.
12 And Joseph brought them out from between his knees, and he bowed himself with his face to the earth.
13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought them near unto him.
14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations (Hebrew: "v-zar`ow yihyeh mlo' hagoyim" = "and-his-seed shall-become a-fulness of-the-Gentiles").
20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
21 And Israel said unto Joseph, Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
22 Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow.
49 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.

3 Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:
4 Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.

5 Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations.
6 O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.
7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

13 Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for an haven of ships; and his border shall be unto Zidon.

14 Issachar is a strong ass couching down between two burdens:
15 And he saw that rest was good, and the land that it was pleasant; and bowed his shoulder to bear, and became a servant unto tribute.

16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
18 I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord.

19 Gad, a troop shall overcome him: but he shall overcome at the last.

20 Out of Asher his bread shall be fat, and he shall yield royal dainties.

21 Naphtali is a hind let loose: he giveth goodly words.

22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel
25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

27 Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.

28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.
KJV

Thus, they ALL received a blessing! However, it was Y'hudah (Judah) who was given the kingship of the nation of Isra'el.

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, "Son of Man."



Sorry, but you've misunderstood the lightning analogy. Yeshua` was not saying that He was returning as quickly as a flash of lightning; He was saying that His coming was going to be that OBVIOUS as lightning flashing in the dark at one horizon and being so bright that it is reflected by mountains near the opposite horizon!

And, why pull the "2 Peter 3:8" card? It doesn't have anything to do with the passage in Matthew 24!

Click to expand...

The scripture means exactly what it said. there is no hidden meaning.

Matthew 24
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1 Corinthians 15
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Shalom, "Son of Man."

Son of Man said:

The scripture means exactly what it said. there is no hidden meaning.

Matthew 24
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1 Corinthians 15
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's true! But, God expects you to use your head about this, too! Open up the context of Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:23-31
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

What Yeshua` was saying is this: 'If any man says to you, "Look! Here's the Messiah!" or "There He is!" Don't you believe it! There shall arise pseudo-messiahs and pseudo-prophets, and they'll show great miracles and awesome deeds; so much so that, if it was possible, they should fool even the chosen ones! Pay attention! I've told you this beforehand! So, if they shall say to you, "Look! He's out in the desert!" DON'T GO OUT THERE! "Look! He's in the storage rooms!" DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT! For as lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, THAT'S how the coming of the Son of Man will be! "Wherever the meat is, that's where the vultures will flock!" (I.e., and YOU'RE the meat!) Immediately after the pressure of those days, the sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not reflect its light, and the stars (meteorites) shall fall from the sky and the weather of the skies shall be disrupted! Then the miracle of the Son of Man shall appear in the sky, and then all families of the Land shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the sky with power and intense brightness! He shall send out His messengers with the loud blare of a trumpet (shofar), and they shall collect His chosen ones from the four compass directions, from the lowest point of the sky to the highest point of the sky!'

What you SHOULD be comparing between Matthew 24 and 1 Corinthians 15 is not the "lightning" of Matthew 24:27 to the "twinkling of an eye" of 1 Corinthians 15:52, but rather "the loud blare of a trumpet" of Matthew 24:29-31 to "the trumpet shall blare" of 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, adding to this the additional information of "look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh" of Luke 21:28 to "the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" of 1 Corinthians 15:52-54:

Luke 21:25-28
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV


1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV

Paul was saying, 'Look, I'll tell you a secret: We're not all going to "sleep" (i.e. in death), but we shall all be transformed in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trumpeting: The trumpet (shofar) shall blare, and the dead (believers) shall be raised indestructible, and we shall be transformed, because this decayable (body) must put on indestructibility, and this mortal (body) must put on immortality. And, when this decayable (body) shall have put on indestructibility, and this mortal (body) shall have put on immortality, then the saying that was written, "Death is swallowed up in victory," shall be fulfilled!'

That IS the redemption (the "buying-back") of our bodies!

Son of Man said:

The scripture means exactly what it said. there is no hidden meaning.

Matthew 24
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1 Corinthians 15
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Click to expand...

Christ was saying that as we all see the lightening from where we are that we shall see the son of man come.
But the only sign of the Son of man known to man on earth in the Sky was the Star the wise men followed.

Paul is referring to the believers being raise incorruptible for they have already passed from judgement.
But Revelation 20 shows that those who are not in the books are already judged and go into the lake of fire with hell
and the world of the dead. The false prophet and Satan already being in there.

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, "Son of Man."



Yes, that's true! But, God expects you to use your head about this, too! Open up the context of Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:23-31
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

What Yeshua` was saying is this: 'If any man says to you, "Look! Here's the Messiah!" or "There He is!" Don't you believe it! There shall arise pseudo-messiahs and pseudo-prophets, and they'll show great miracles and awesome deeds; so much so that, if it was possible, they should fool even the chosen ones! Pay attention! I've told you this beforehand! So, if they shall say to you, "Look! He's out in the desert!" DON'T GO OUT THERE! "Look! He's in the storage rooms!" DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT! For as lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, THAT'S how the coming of the Son of Man will be! "Wherever the meat is, that's where the vultures will flock!" (I.e., and YOU'RE the meat!) Immediately after the pressure of those days, the sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not reflect its light, and the stars (meteorites) shall fall from the sky and the weather of the skies shall be disrupted! Then the miracle of the Son of Man shall appear in the sky, and then all families of the Land shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the sky with power and intense brightness! He shall send out His messengers with the loud blare of a trumpet (shofar), and they shall collect His chosen ones from the four compass directions, from the lowest point of the sky to the highest point of the sky!'

What you SHOULD be comparing between Matthew 24 and 1 Corinthians 15 is not the "lightning" of Matthew 24:27 to the "twinkling of an eye" of 1 Corinthians 15:52, but rather "the loud blare of a trumpet" of Matthew 24:29-31 to "the trumpet shall blare" of 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, adding to this the additional information of "look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh" of Luke 21:28 to "the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" of 1 Corinthians 15:52-54:

Luke 21:25-28
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV


1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV

Paul was saying, 'Look, I'll tell you a secret: We're not all going to "sleep" (i.e. in death), but we shall all be transformed in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trumpeting: The trumpet (shofar) shall blare, and the dead (believers) shall be raised indestructible, and we shall be transformed, because this decayable (body) must put on indestructibility, and this mortal (body) must put on immortality. And, when this decayable (body) shall have put on indestructibility, and this mortal (body) shall have put on immortality, then the saying that was written, "Death is swallowed up in victory," shall be fulfilled!'

That IS the redemption (the "buying-back") of our bodies!

Click to expand...

My original point was that the elect are here through the whole thing. They stand fast in the faith until Christ returns to set up his kingdom on earth. Everyone left alive, after the slaughter of the great tribulation will be in one area of earth. Two camps will be there. The camp of the saints and the camp of the devils. Approximately two billion people left on earth at that time.

All being fed and watered by Gods true shepherds who were ready in due season. All accept the camp of the devils who will have been surviving on eating people and drinking their blood.

Shalom, "Son of Man."

Son of Man said:

My original point was that the elect are here through the whole thing. They stand fast in the faith until Christ returns to set up his kingdom on earth. Everyone left alive, after the slaughter of the great tribulation will be in one area of earth. Two camps will be there. The camp of the saints and the camp of the devils. Approximately two billion people left on earth at that time.

All being fed and watered by Gods true shepherds who were ready in due season. All accept the camp of the devils who will have been surviving on eating people and drinking their blood.

Click to expand...

Sorry to be blunt, but that's just nuts! How'd you arrive at THAT "gem" of a conclusion?! I doubt very much that you will find that anywhere in the Scriptures! And, you've COMPLETELY left out the first 1000 years of Yeshua`s reign! It's time to get back into the Scriptures; you've cut the last line of your moorings and have radically drifted away from the solid foundation of the Truth of God's Word. It's time to throw out an anchor so it can wedge once again into the bedrock of Scripture!