The Great Tribulation

Trekson · Jul 27, 2012

Why should the church endure the great tribulation?

I believe I can answer this question through God's word. "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." I think it's safe to assume that the whole bible is God's message to the church in one way or another via 2 Tim. 3:16 - “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (KJV)

A serious believer in a pre-trib rapture might pose this question: What is the purpose of the rapture, if not to keep us from the tribulation and the wrath to come?

My reply would be that this is the wrong question to ask. As a pre-wrath believer, I agree that the main reason for the rapture is to take us away from God's wrath, which is not for the church according to 1 Thess. 5:9 - “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” As stated earlier, I believe His wrath begins at the opening of the seventh seal. I think a better question the church of God should ask themselves is: Why must the church endure the great tribulation?

Let's take a trip down memory lane to the book of Job. You know the story, he was the richest man on earth yet he lost everything, family, house, possessions, etc. Similar to some of the losses we may face as believers in the midst of the great tribulation. He questions God about the unfairness and seeming injustice of all that befell him. Chapters 38-41 record God's answer to Job. But what brought about his calamity in the first place?

Job 1:8-11
- Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan re-plied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." (NIV)

To put it in a nutshell, Satan was testing Job's faith and God allowed it. During the great trib, Satan is again given permission to test our faith and this time he is allowed to harm our bodies and kill some of us! Why? Because now we are in Christ and our enemy; death, has been triumphed over through Jesus Christ.

Why must the church endure the great tribulation?
James 1:2-4 - "
Consider it pure joy, my brothers, when-ever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perse-verance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." (NIV)
Matt. 13:18-22
- "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. (NIV)

The 70th week will wean out those for whom Christianity is convenient or for those who use it as a means of good social standing. We will be purified as though with fire.
1 Peter 1:5-7
- ..."who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." (NIV)

We must also remember these words of Peter as well. They are of utmost importance.
1 Peter 4:12-19
- "Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good." (NIV)

There are many christians in the world that are suffering this very minute. When the great trib comes among them it will be like "business as usual", but for the other places in the world where christians have become lazy and complacent, it will be a time of severe testing. You may offer up Noah and Lot as examples of people who were rescued from tribulation but keep in mind they did not leave the earth. I offer up Job as an example that God does and will test his people through trials and tribulations, to wean out those who are christians in word only because it has not reached their heart.

A person may believe that God only does things involving christians for a purpose! His purpose in allowing christians to go through some of the 70th week is to provide a vast witness for Him. Some scholars believe the 144,000 of Rev. 7 fulfill that purpose but I disagree. They are sealed and protected and if they did witness (which scripture never says they do), just preaching the word will not be enough. The world has been preached to for millennia. What greater testimony can God have then people who are willing to lay down their lives for their Lord and Savior, The 144,000 will never become martyrs but as God is ending the world as we know it, in a final time of wrath, I think it only logical that prior to His wrath, God will show the world through the greater witness of martyrdom and other efforts of the church that He is real and that His Son Jesus is Lord of All!

However, not all will be martyrs! Some of us will just give up our luxuries and the simple things like a roof over our head and food in our stomach because we will refuse to accept the mark of the beast that will allow us those simples pleasures. Our faith will be in God to provide for us and He will!! Our insanity (from the world's point of view) will hit the news media big time. We will be talked about all over the world, our opportunity to witness will be sure. Some will fail, but hopefully, most of us won't and when judgment day comes for those who witness our seeming insanity because of our faith, it is our job to make sure they won't have an excuse when they stand before God! One final thought. When the church is persecuted and going through hard times, the power of the Holy Spirit is made more manifest and miracles will be witnessed around the world as well. So then it can be truly stated, "When the gates of hell came down to earth, they did not prevail against us!!" Something that could not be said if we were raptured prior to the 70th week!
A little about the timing of the great tribulation
Let’s see if we can narrow down the timing of the great trib. Matt. 24:21 - “For then shall be great tribulation…” This means that the great trib. happens after the events of vs. 4-20, including vs. 15, which has the abomination of desolation, which we know is at the midpoint of the 70th week. Now what does the following vs. 22 say, “...for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened“. This ties in the fact that the great trib. is affecting believers, not the world in general.
Mark 13:19 & 20 echoes this exact order, but uses the term affliction. Luke 21:22 does as well, using the term vengeance and shows in vs. 28, "And when all these things begin to come to pass, (everything mentioned in the previous verses) then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh." (KJV) (words in parenthesis mine) This great tribulation upon believers is the result of Satan's wrath as pictured in Rev. 12:17 - “Then the dragon was enraged at the woman (believing Israel) and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus (the church).” (NIV)

Here’s a theory I developed on why the new testament writers seemed to believe Christ’s return was imminent. Paul and other bible authors, in their writings, wrote as if Christ would return in their lifetime. (1 Thess. 4:15, note the word we) Now with that in mind read 1 Thess. 3: 3&4, "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass and ye know." (KJV)

I believe that Paul felt they were at the beginning of sorrows point (the first 3 1/2 yr. segment) of Daniel's 70th week and his followers did as well, hence the need for Paul to reassure them that that day (rapture/resurrection) would not occur until after the man of lawlessness is revealed at the mid-point of the 70[sup]th[/sup] week when the a/c sits on the throne and declares himself God and sets up the abomination of desolation.

There is one main reason why Paul and the early church thought Christ would return in their lifetime and that is because many of the signs that He told them about in the Olivet Discourse seemed to be happening. There was a great famine in the Jerusalem area, earthquakes had happened in diverse areas, Christians were being put to death and jailed because of their beliefs, and Jerusalem was soon to be under the Roman siege of A.D. 70. Paul in the next verse, describes how we’ll know when that event will occur, which we know takes place at the mid point of Daniel's 70th week.

Now we come to Rev. 7:9. This great multitude suddenly appears in heaven. They are identified in vs. 14 as "they which came out of great tribulation." Again confirming the great trib is upon believers and not the world in general. You have to go with the flow of all the scriptures, not just a select few. Nowhere in scripture does it say that tribulation or great tribulation will last seven years. Logically, there is only one conclusion and that is this multitude represents the rapture.

If it is not the rapture, then this also develops a couple of problems for the pre-trib rapture theory. One, is that there must be a second rapture that brings these folks to heaven at the same time before the conclusion of the rest of Revelations, which is not alluded to anywhere in scripture.
The other is, you can't have both a great apostasy and a great revival happening at the same time. Pre-trib rapturists believe that as a result of missing the rapture there will be a great revival that will sweep across the world but scripture never speaks of this. The scriptures do tell us that there will be a great falling away. 2 Thess. 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…“ (KJV) This is called the apostasy from the Greek word “apostasia“. My dictionary defines apostasy as, “the abandonment of a former allegiance as in turning away from one’s religious faith. This apostasy will be the result of many believers who feel that they have been misled or lied to by their pastors because they haven’t been raptured or rescued from these hard times as they had always been taught. They will begin to doubt all the other teachings and in the midst of trials and tribulations will fall away from the truth as the parable of the sower explains to us in Matt. 4.
Paul also says in 2 Thess. 2:11&12 - “God will send a delusion so that mankind will believe the lie, that they might be damned who believed not the truth” (NIV).

This theory of a second chance for a separate group of tribulation saints is not scriptural, especially a multi-national group so large they can't be numbered.

To conclude, the Great Tribulation is upon believers as explained in 1 Peter 1:5-7, "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (the real meaning of Rev. 3:10) In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith-of greater worth then gold, which perishes even though refined by fire-may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." (KJV)

This fact is also the basis of the wheat and tares parable. We will be sifted together and only the true spotless body of Christ will emerge from the great tribulation "...having washed our robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14 NIV)

Arnie Manitoba · Jul 27, 2012

Trekson .... so you are saying that Jesus saves us and forgives us .... then hurls his wrath at us .... then snatches us up only to bring us right back down again at the very end of the tribulation.

Yeah right.

The wrath of The Lamb is for the ungodly

The Lamb will not pour His wrath upon His own sheep .... whom He has already purchased with His own blood.

The groom does not shoot the bride before he marries her.

The whole purpose of the end-time wrath is to punish the ungodly ..... the church is not the ungodly. Are you sure you needed that pointed out ?

Best wishes in your studies.

Trekson · Jul 27, 2012

Did you even read what I wrote? I affirm that the church will not be here for the wrath of the Lamb and God's wrath. As for the church being the bride, that's another doubtful subject, altogether.

Jon-Marc · Jul 27, 2012

I don't believe that God's wrath (the great tribulation) is meant for the Church (the believers), but it is meant only for the unbelievers. That is why the church isn't mentioned in Rev. 4 through 18.

Trekson · Jul 27, 2012

God's wrath and the great trib are completely separate from each other. The great trib, imo, is satan's wrath upon the church per Rev. 12:17 and will end at the 7th seal rapture. Judgment and God's wrath comes after.

veteran · Jul 28, 2012

Trekson said:
Here’s a theory I developed on why the new testament writers seemed to believe Christ’s return was imminent. Paul and other bible authors, in their writings, wrote as if Christ would return in their lifetime. (1 Thess. 4:15, note the word we) Now with that in mind read 1 Thess. 3: 3&4, "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass and ye know." (KJV)

I believe that Paul felt they were at the beginning of sorrows point (the first 3 1/2 yr. segment) of Daniel's 70th week and his followers did as well, hence the need for Paul to reassure them that that day (rapture/resurrection) would not occur until after the man of lawlessness is revealed at the mid-point of the 70[sup]th[/sup] week when the a/c sits on the throne and declares himself God and sets up the abomination of desolation.

I don't think Paul thought the great tribulation was happenning in his days. Afterall, he was in Rome within his own tribulation. I think Paul understood the OT prophets well enough to know to be 'watching', and to know just what the days (seasons) were. Some Scriptures about the future he gives in a 'prophetic perfect' sense just like the OT prophets did, speaking as if some prophecies had already happened when it actually had not yet. He had to have understood about the coming pseudo-Christ, otherwise he couldn't have written the warnings of 2 Thess.2. Moreover, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple went directly against the Daniel "abomination of desolation" prophecy Jesus quoted, and Paul being a scholar would have understood a temple at Jerusalem was required (as he even declared that point in 2 Thess.2).

There is one main reason why Paul and the early church thought Christ would return in their lifetime and that is because many of the signs that He told them about in the Olivet Discourse seemed to be happening. There was a great famine in the Jerusalem area, earthquakes had happened in diverse areas, Christians were being put to death and jailed because of their beliefs, and Jerusalem was soon to be under the Roman siege of A.D. 70. Paul in the next verse, describes how we’ll know when that event will occur, which we know takes place at the mid point of Daniel's 70th week.

Like I showed before, that speculation doesn't truly fit Paul's Epistles. It's more of a popular idea today among the Preterist crowds.

Now we come to Rev. 7:9. This great multitude suddenly appears in heaven. They are identified in vs. 14 as "they which came out of great tribulation." Again confirming the great trib is upon believers and not the world in general. You have to go with the flow of all the scriptures, not just a select few. Nowhere in scripture does it say that tribulation or great tribulation will last seven years. Logically, there is only one conclusion and that is this multitude represents the rapture.

Going with the 'flow' of Bible Scripture then, how are the Books of the OT prophets laid out with giving prophecy of future events? They sometimes jump way... forward in the timeline, and then back. Why can't brethren understand our Lord's Revelation does that too? That's what the great multitude event of Rev.7:9 forward is, a jump forward in timeline to AFTER... Jesus has returned to gather His Church. That's a whole different idea than merely suggesting those of Rev.7:9 are 'raptured' there in the Rev.7 chapter. Afterall, the Pre-trib Rapture school believes it's evidence of the Church being gone prior to the great tribulation. But it's not. It's simply a future look forward after Christ has returned, and they are standing with Him upon Zion on earth.

If it is not the rapture, then this also develops a couple of problems for the pre-trib rapture theory. One, is that there must be a second rapture that brings these folks to heaven at the same time before the conclusion of the rest of Revelations, which is not alluded to anywhere in scripture.
The other is, you can't have both a great apostasy and a great revival happening at the same time. Pre-trib rapturists believe that as a result of missing the rapture there will be a great revival that will sweep across the world but scripture never speaks of this. The scriptures do tell us that there will be a great falling away. 2 Thess. 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…“ (KJV) This is called the apostasy from the Greek word “apostasia“. My dictionary defines apostasy as, “the abandonment of a former allegiance as in turning away from one’s religious faith. This apostasy will be the result of many believers who feel that they have been misled or lied to by their pastors because they haven’t been raptured or rescued from these hard times as they had always been taught. They will begin to doubt all the other teachings and in the midst of trials and tribulations will fall away from the truth as the parable of the sower explains to us in Matt. 4.
Paul also says in 2 Thess. 2:11&12 - “God will send a delusion so that mankind will believe the lie, that they might be damned who believed not the truth” (NIV).

This theory of a second chance for a separate group of tribulation saints is not scriptural, especially a multi-national group so large they can't be numbered.

To conclude, the Great Tribulation is upon believers as explained in 1 Peter 1:5-7, "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (the real meaning of Rev. 3:10) In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith-of greater worth then gold, which perishes even though refined by fire-may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." (KJV)

This fact is also the basis of the wheat and tares parable. We will be sifted together and only the true spotless body of Christ will emerge from the great tribulation "...having washed our robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14 NIV)

Now all that is pretty much in line with the actual Scriptures for the end. But it does not answer a lot of questions many have on what the great tribulation is, or how it will play out.

The time of "great tribulation" will upon both Christ's elect servants, His Church, and upon the wicked and unbelieving.

The difference will be in HOW it is designed to affect each group.

For the wicked, especially the "tares", it is their time, their acceptance of their 'rock' they have waited for, well knowing it won't be Christ Jesus.

For the unbelieving, they will have bowed in false worship to a false god. This they will learn when Jesus does return later. (There won't be any atheism during the coming tribulation; even atheists are going to wrongly admit the pseudo-messiah is God).

For the apostates in Christ's Church, they will be under the same condition as the unbelievers, not learning how they've succumbed to the "strong delusion" until Jesus returns.

For Christ's elect who are 'sealed' for this event, they will be persecuted by all the groups mentioned above, some even killed for making a stand for Christ Jesus in waiting for Him.

The trib is to be a time of "Peace and safety" per Paul in 1 Thess.5. That's what it will be for the deceived.

All we can do today is to prepare ourselves, and pray we will make a stand for Christ during the coming tribulation, and remain faithful in waiting for His return, even to the death if necessary. Our Lord Jesus did tell us to not fear those who can kill our flesh body, and not our soul.

Trekson · Jul 28, 2012

Veteran, Your words:"Why can't brethren understand our Lord's Revelation does that too? That's what the great multitude event of Rev.7:9 forward is, a jump forward in timeline to AFTER... Jesus has returned to gather His Church."

I'm aware that the OT prophets use what I call "telescoping" prophecy, where they see the peak top of events but not the valley of time between them. However, I do not believe Revelations goes back and forth. I believe it is mostly is chronological but pauses at times like Rev. 12 to explain in depth, times, characters, events, etc. They're not going back per se, just filling in more detail, imo.

Retrobyter · Jul 28, 2012

Shabbat shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:
Why should the church endure the great tribulation?

I believe I can answer this question through God's word. "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." I think it's safe to assume that the whole bible is God's message to the church in one way or another via 2 Tim. 3:16 - “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (KJV)

A serious believer in a pre-trib rapture might pose this question: What is the purpose of the rapture, if not to keep us from the tribulation and the wrath to come?

My reply would be that this is the wrong question to ask. As a pre-wrath believer, I agree that the main reason for the rapture is to take us away from God's wrath, which is not for the church according to 1 Thess. 5:9 - “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” As stated earlier, I believe His wrath begins at the opening of the seventh seal. I think a better question the church of God should ask themselves is: Why must the church endure the great tribulation?

Let's take a trip down memory lane to the book of Job. You know the story, he was the richest man on earth yet he lost everything, family, house, possessions, etc. Similar to some of the losses we may face as believers in the midst of the great tribulation. He questions God about the unfairness and seeming injustice of all that befell him. Chapters 38-41 record God's answer to Job. But what brought about his calamity in the first place?

Job 1:8-11
- Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan re-plied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." (NIV)

To put it in a nutshell, Satan was testing Job's faith and God allowed it. During the great trib, Satan is again given permission to test our faith and this time he is allowed to harm our bodies and kill some of us! Why? Because now we are in Christ and our enemy; death, has been triumphed over through Jesus Christ.

Why must the church endure the great tribulation?
James 1:2-4 - "
Consider it pure joy, my brothers, when-ever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perse-verance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." (NIV)
Matt. 13:18-22
- "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. (NIV)

The 70th week will wean out those for whom Christianity is convenient or for those who use it as a means of good social standing. We will be purified as though with fire.
1 Peter 1:5-7
- ..."who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." (NIV)

We must also remember these words of Peter as well. They are of utmost importance.
1 Peter 4:12-19
- "Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good." (NIV)

There are many christians in the world that are suffering this very minute. When the great trib comes among them it will be like "business as usual", but for the other places in the world where christians have become lazy and complacent, it will be a time of severe testing. You may offer up Noah and Lot as examples of people who were rescued from tribulation but keep in mind they did not leave the earth. I offer up Job as an example that God does and will test his people through trials and tribulations, to wean out those who are christians in word only because it has not reached their heart.

A person may believe that God only does things involving christians for a purpose! His purpose in allowing christians to go through some of the 70th week is to provide a vast witness for Him. Some scholars believe the 144,000 of Rev. 7 fulfill that purpose but I disagree. They are sealed and protected and if they did witness (which scripture never says they do), just preaching the word will not be enough. The world has been preached to for millennia. What greater testimony can God have then people who are willing to lay down their lives for their Lord and Savior, The 144,000 will never become martyrs but as God is ending the world as we know it, in a final time of wrath, I think it only logical that prior to His wrath, God will show the world through the greater witness of martyrdom and other efforts of the church that He is real and that His Son Jesus is Lord of All!

However, not all will be martyrs! Some of us will just give up our luxuries and the simple things like a roof over our head and food in our stomach because we will refuse to accept the mark of the beast that will allow us those simples pleasures. Our faith will be in God to provide for us and He will!! Our insanity (from the world's point of view) will hit the news media big time. We will be talked about all over the world, our opportunity to witness will be sure. Some will fail, but hopefully, most of us won't and when judgment day comes for those who witness our seeming insanity because of our faith, it is our job to make sure they won't have an excuse when they stand before God! One final thought. When the church is persecuted and going through hard times, the power of the Holy Spirit is made more manifest and miracles will be witnessed around the world as well. So then it can be truly stated, "When the gates of hell came down to earth, they did not prevail against us!!" Something that could not be said if we were raptured prior to the 70th week!
A little about the timing of the great tribulation
Let’s see if we can narrow down the timing of the great trib. Matt. 24:21 - “For then shall be great tribulation…” This means that the great trib. happens after the events of vs. 4-20, including vs. 15, which has the abomination of desolation, which we know is at the midpoint of the 70th week. Now what does the following vs. 22 say, “...for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened“. This ties in the fact that the great trib. is affecting believers, not the world in general.
Mark 13:19 & 20 echoes this exact order, but uses the term affliction. Luke 21:22 does as well, using the term vengeance and shows in vs. 28, "And when all these things begin to come to pass, (everything mentioned in the previous verses) then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh." (KJV) (words in parenthesis mine) This great tribulation upon believers is the result of Satan's wrath as pictured in Rev. 12:17 - “Then the dragon was enraged at the woman (believing Israel) and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus (the church).” (NIV)

Here’s a theory I developed on why the new testament writers seemed to believe Christ’s return was imminent. Paul and other bible authors, in their writings, wrote as if Christ would return in their lifetime. (1 Thess. 4:15, note the word we) Now with that in mind read 1 Thess. 3: 3&4, "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass and ye know." (KJV)

I believe that Paul felt they were at the beginning of sorrows point (the first 3 1/2 yr. segment) of Daniel's 70th week and his followers did as well, hence the need for Paul to reassure them that that day (rapture/resurrection) would not occur until after the man of lawlessness is revealed at the mid-point of the 70[sup]th[/sup] week when the a/c sits on the throne and declares himself God and sets up the abomination of desolation.

There is one main reason why Paul and the early church thought Christ would return in their lifetime and that is because many of the signs that He told them about in the Olivet Discourse seemed to be happening. There was a great famine in the Jerusalem area, earthquakes had happened in diverse areas, Christians were being put to death and jailed because of their beliefs, and Jerusalem was soon to be under the Roman siege of A.D. 70. Paul in the next verse, describes how we’ll know when that event will occur, which we know takes place at the mid point of Daniel's 70th week.

Now we come to Rev. 7:9. This great multitude suddenly appears in heaven. They are identified in vs. 14 as "they which came out of great tribulation." Again confirming the great trib is upon believers and not the world in general. You have to go with the flow of all the scriptures, not just a select few. Nowhere in scripture does it say that tribulation or great tribulation will last seven years. Logically, there is only one conclusion and that is this multitude represents the rapture.

If it is not the rapture, then this also develops a couple of problems for the pre-trib rapture theory. One, is that there must be a second rapture that brings these folks to heaven at the same time before the conclusion of the rest of Revelations, which is not alluded to anywhere in scripture.
The other is, you can't have both a great apostasy and a great revival happening at the same time. Pre-trib rapturists believe that as a result of missing the rapture there will be a great revival that will sweep across the world but scripture never speaks of this. The scriptures do tell us that there will be a great falling away. 2 Thess. 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…“ (KJV) This is called the apostasy from the Greek word “apostasia“. My dictionary defines apostasy as, “the abandonment of a former allegiance as in turning away from one’s religious faith. This apostasy will be the result of many believers who feel that they have been misled or lied to by their pastors because they haven’t been raptured or rescued from these hard times as they had always been taught. They will begin to doubt all the other teachings and in the midst of trials and tribulations will fall away from the truth as the parable of the sower explains to us in Matt. 4.
Paul also says in 2 Thess. 2:11&12 - “God will send a delusion so that mankind will believe the lie, that they might be damned who believed not the truth” (NIV).

This theory of a second chance for a separate group of tribulation saints is not scriptural, especially a multi-national group so large they can't be numbered.

To conclude, the Great Tribulation is upon believers as explained in 1 Peter 1:5-7, "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (the real meaning of Rev. 3:10) In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith-of greater worth then gold, which perishes even though refined by fire-may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." (KJV)

This fact is also the basis of the wheat and tares parable. We will be sifted together and only the true spotless body of Christ will emerge from the great tribulation "...having washed our robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14 NIV)

There are MANY things I find wrong in the above post; however, I'll only ask one question at this point: What makes you think that the "Tribulation" = the "Seventieth Seven (not 'Week')" of Dani'el 9:24-27?

I believe that as in building a huge castle, you guys are messing around with the turrets and high windows, wondering why they're not aligned, when there's something wrong with the FOUNDATION and LOWER BLOCKS of the building!

shilohsfoal · Jul 28, 2012

Trekson said:
Did you even read what I wrote? I affirm that the church will not be here for the wrath of the Lamb and God's wrath. As for the church being the bride, that's another doubtful subject, altogether.

You seem to miss whos Gods wrath is prepared for in scripture.
Luke 21;21
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and
wrath upon this people.

If you learned alittle more about the Israeli goverment which they serve with thier hearts and souls then maybe you could understand.

Trekson said:
God's wrath and the great trib are completely separate from each other. The great trib, imo, is satan's wrath upon the church per Rev. 12:17 and will end at the 7th seal rapture. Judgment and God's wrath comes after.

Jesus plainly states in the gospel who are the children of Satan and what they shall do in the future.
Jesus is prophesying of the tribulation in this verse.

Mathew 23;34
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Trekson · Jul 28, 2012

Retrobyter, Let's take a closer look Dan. 9:24-27 - Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
[sup]25 [/sup]Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
[sup]26 [/sup]And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[sup]27 [/sup]And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I don't know why you don't want to call them weeks since scripture does, however the math has been done and it was precisely 69 x 7 = 483 years from the decree to rebuild the temple to Christ's crucifixion. Since the first 69 weeks were seven years each than it is only logical to assume the 70th week to be a seven-year period. Since the above verses show that after seven and sixty-two weeks totaling 69, Messiah would be cut off, ie crucified and nothing significant happened the next seven years that it remains to be fulfilled.The only people who don't recognize this timeline in my opinion are preterists who have a gap of 35 yrs. and believe it is talking of the destruction of the temple in AD 70 or SDA's who really have their prophetic foundation askew and don't realize that starting in the latter half of vs. 26, it is introducing a new character, the anti-christ and is not still speaking of the Messiah.

Shilosfoal, If all the destruction prophesied all occurred in Israel then I would agree with you, but as scripture clearly shows the whole world is affected by His wrath and judgments, then it is obvious His wrath is on everyone, not just Israel.

shilohsfoal · Jul 28, 2012

I just showed you in scripture where God has wrath upon that people.
Now you show me where in scripture does it ay God shall have wrath upon the people of West Virginia
I backed my claim now you back yours.

Luke 21;21
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and
wrath upon this people.

Foreigner · Jul 28, 2012

For me, the verdict on the Rapture is still out.

I will mention two things though.

First, there are multiple warning about not knowing when Jesus will return. It is stressed that we should be ready because it can happen at any time / any moment.

If the only time Jesus is coming back is after the Tribulation, the Anti-Christ, etc. etc. etc., then we can watch/live the events and narrow down pretty closely the period of time when Jesus will be coming back and the "at any moment" passages are misleading.

If certain documented prophecies need to be fulfilled before He comes back once and for all, what about the scriptures stating he could return at any moment?

It makes it really difficult to believe that those scriptures can be reconciled into one event.

As far as the suffering Christians are going to have to suffer before Christ's return, there are already hundreds of thousands if not millions of Christians the world over who are currently suffering and dying for their faith.

I am of the opinion that there is going to be a great revival in the United States, like the the great explosion of Christianity that was mentioned in Acts. One last great pouring out of the Holy Spirit across the land. But then, just like in Acts, when the persecutions and difficulties for Christians began, many are going to fall away.

.

veteran · Jul 28, 2012

Trekson said:
Veteran, Your words:"Why can't brethren understand our Lord's Revelation does that too? That's what the great multitude event of Rev.7:9 forward is, a jump forward in timeline to AFTER... Jesus has returned to gather His Church."

I'm aware that the OT prophets use what I call "telescoping" prophecy, where they see the peak top of events but not the valley of time between them. However, I do not believe Revelations goes back and forth. I believe it is mostly is chronological but pauses at times like Rev. 12 to explain in depth, times, characters, events, etc. They're not going back per se, just filling in more detail, imo.

The idea of pauses are like parenthetical sections, but the timelines in Revelation do the same thing as the OT Books of the prophets. That's why we are given short summary sections of past events linked with future prophecy, like Rev.12:1-5. And that's why John is shown of things that only will occur after Christ's return involving the "great multitude" of Rev.7.

Also, with The Lamb standing upon Mount Sion with 144,000 per Rev.14, that is future for AFTER... Christ's return. That "Sion" (Zion) is about the Zion in the holy lands of promise, not away from the earth. In that future time, the heavenly is revealed upon... this earth with the holy city established in the holy land.

Foreigner said:
For me, the verdict on the Rapture is still out.

I will mention two things though.

First, there are multiple warning about not knowing when Jesus will return. It is stressed that we should be ready because it can happen at any time / any moment.

If the only time Jesus is coming back is after the Tribulation, the Anti-Christ, etc. etc. etc., then we can watch/live the events and narrow down pretty closely the period of time when Jesus will be coming back and the "at any moment" passages are misleading.

If certain documented prophecies need to be fulfilled before He comes back once and for all, what about the scriptures stating he could return at any moment?

It makes it really difficult to believe that those scriptures can be reconciled into one event.

As far as the suffering Christians are going to have to suffer before Christ's return, there are already hundreds of thousands if not millions of Christians the world over who are currently suffering and dying for their faith.

I am of the opinion that there is going to be a great revival in the United States, like the the great explosion of Christianity that was mentioned in Acts. One last great pouring out of the Holy Spirit across the land. But then, just like in Acts, when the persecutions and difficulties for Christians began, many are going to fall away.
.

It's true that no one knows the actual day and hour of Christ's coming. But Paul did cover the idea of "the times and the seasons", which is what The Lord has given us to watch for.

If the Imminent idea were true, then He would not have given us specific signs that must come to pass prior to His return.

Matt 24:33-34
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(KJV)

Jesus was talking about the last generation of this present world. When that final generation sees all those signs He covered there, only then... will that final generation pass, i.e., end. And the event that causes that generation to end is His second coming which will usher all into the Millennium timing.

shilohsfoal · Jul 28, 2012

Foreigner said:
For me, the verdict on the Rapture is still out.

I will mention two things though.

First, there are multiple warning about not knowing when Jesus will return. It is stressed that we should be ready because it can happen at any time / any moment.

If the only time Jesus is coming back is after the Tribulation, the Anti-Christ, etc. etc. etc., then we can watch/live the events and narrow down pretty closely the period of time when Jesus will be coming back and the "at any moment" passages are misleading.

If certain documented prophecies need to be fulfilled before He comes back once and for all, what about the scriptures stating he could return at any moment?

It makes it really difficult to believe that those scriptures can be reconciled into one event.

As far as the suffering Christians are going to have to suffer before Christ's return, there are already hundreds of thousands if not millions of Christians the world over who are currently suffering and dying for their faith.

I am of the opinion that there is going to be a great revival in the United States, like the the great explosion of Christianity that was mentioned in Acts. One last great pouring out of the Holy Spirit across the land. But then, just like in Acts, when the persecutions and difficulties for Christians began, many are going to fall away.

.

No jesus cannot return at any time.
And the end is at a time appoited.That is scripture.
All Jesus said is no one knows the day or the hour.Jesus never said no one could know the millinium ,century ,decade or even the year of his return.
Jesus himself said he would return after the tribulation.He made no secret of this fact and said it for all the world to hear.He hid nothing.

Mathew 24
[sup]29 [/sup]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[sup]30 [/sup]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Trekson · Jul 28, 2012

Veteran, Our differences mainly lies in how we see Christ's return. You see it as a singular event and I believe it's in two stages, a rapture, then His return to Earth for Armageddon. Why do I see it this way? Simply because the bible gives two completely different visions of His return. The first can be found in Acts 1:9-11 - "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[sup]10 [/sup]And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

[sup]11 [/sup]Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Now in the Olivet discourse Christ prophesies about His return as the angel of Acts spoke. Matt. 24:29-31 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken[sup]30 [/sup]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [sup]31 [/sup]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Vs. 29 is a description of the 6th seal which occurs right before the 7th seal rapture. Rev. 6:12-14 - "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
[sup]13 [/sup]And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
[sup]14 [/sup]And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

The second picture where He returns for Armageddon is quite different fro what we just saw. Rev. 19:11-16 - "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[sup]12 [/sup]His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[sup]13 [/sup]And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[sup]14 [/sup]And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[sup]15 [/sup]And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[sup]16 [/sup]And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

Shilofoals - Here are a few.

Rev. 8 - 1/3 of the earth is burned up, 1/3 of the sea turns to blood, 1/3 of the waters turned bitter, 1/3 of the lights of the sky are dimmed, vs. 13 "Woe to the inhabitants of the Earth" (not just Israel)

Rev. 9:15 - 1/3 of "MANKIND" are killed. Again, not just Israel.

Rev.13:3 "The whole WORLD was astonished and followed the beast." Speaking of the A/C vs. 7 says He was given authority over EVERY tribe, people, language and nation." vs. 8 says, "ALL inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast.

I think that's more than enough to show God's wrath and judgment are on the whole world, not just Israel.

Arnie Manitoba · Jul 28, 2012

Trekson said:
Did you even read what I wrote? I affirm that the church will not be here for the wrath of the Lamb and God's wrath. As for the church being the bride, that's another doubtful subject, altogether.

agreed ..... I withdraw my criticism (of your opening post) with an explanation as follows...

I did read it (skimmed) and stumbled when you started talking about tribulation we Christians encounter every day.

I automatically assumed you had everyday tribulation confused with The Great Tribulation.

Now that I have re-read slowly and carefully I see my mistake .... and that you had already addressed those issues.

So now I will say that I tend to agree and endorse most of what you have written.

I plead guilty to ignoring long and repetitious same-old posts we get here often.

But I now see you have put a lot of time and thought into what you wrote.

Continue as you are.

At another time I will point out and discuss the couple of things I am unsure of (in your opening post)

Maybe one point at a time to stay focused. thanks. I appreciate your deeper thinking on these issues.

shilohsfoal · Jul 29, 2012

Trekson You need to become more familiar with greek before making the assumption the the word 'earth'means the entire world as you claim.The word ghay can also mean country and in fact it does.

Rev.13:3 "The whole WORLD was astonished and followed the beast." Speaking of the A/C vs. 7 says He was given authority over EVERY tribe, people, language and nation." vs. 8 says, "ALL inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast.

Rev 13 is speaking of what you call national Israel.
The beast that was and then was not and yet is.
It was believed to have been killedby the Romans but it lives once more.When the beast reappeared the world wonderd because it once was and was not and yet is.Those who names are not written in the lambs book of life (antichrist judaism)worship the beast and followed it into the promised land.It is thier king they have chosen to serve.

All nations tongues and peoples who have followed the beast..
Languages
Main article: Languages of Israel
Israel has two official languages, Hebrew and Arabic.[1] Hebrew is the primary language of the state and is spoken by the majority of the population, and Arabic is spoken by the Arab minority. Many Israelis communicate reasonably well in English, as many television programs are broadcast in this language and English is taught from the early grades in elementary school. As a country of immigrants, many languages can be heard on the streets. Due to mass immigration from the former Soviet Union and Ethiopia (some 120,000 Ethiopian Jews live in Israel),[316] Russian and Amharic are widely spoken.[317] Between 1990 and 1994, the Russian immigration increased Israel's population by twelve percent.[318] Out of more than one million Russian-speaking immigrants in Israel,[319] about 300,000 are considered gentile by the Orthodox rabbinate, because, under the Orthodox interpretation, only children to Jewish mothers are considered Jews, while the Law of Return accepts those with Jewish fathers, grandparents, and spouses.[320][321]

If you are wanting to argue about the beast then you are barking up the wrong tree.
I have have been studying it for decades.I watch its every move.
The beast reigns from the seven hilled city of Jerusalem in place of Christ.

Luke 20;14
"But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.'

veteran · Jul 29, 2012

Trekson said:
Veteran, Our differences mainly lies in how we see Christ's return. You see it as a singular event and I believe it's in two stages, a rapture, then His return to Earth for Armageddon. Why do I see it this way? Simply because the bible gives two completely different visions of His return. The first can be found in Acts 1:9-11 - "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[sup]10 [/sup]And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

[sup]11 [/sup]Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

That Acts 1 example does not interfere with the Zech.14 example, but aligns with it. And the Zech.14 example of Christ's return aligns with the "day of the Lord" timing. So does Revelation, and so does what both Paul and Peter taught in 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3. Trying to create a partition in that like you're attempting does not align with the Scripture.

Now in the Olivet discourse Christ prophesies about His return as the angel of Acts spoke. Matt. 24:29-31 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken[sup]30 [/sup]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [sup]31 [/sup]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Vs. 29 is a description of the 6th seal which occurs right before the 7th seal rapture.

The 6th Seal of Rev.6 includes events of the tribulation, and events of Christ returning with His wrath upon the wicked. That's why the wicked are there wanting to hide from Him on that day. That's "day of the Lord" timing. The 7th Seal does not speak of the rapture; that has to be assumed. Yet I do believe Jesus returns on the 7th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial (777). Satan comes on the 6th Seal, 6th Trumpet, and 6th Vial (666).

Rev. 6:12-14 - "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
[sup]13 [/sup]And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
[sup]14 [/sup]And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

The part I underlined above is for tribulation timing.

The second picture where He returns for Armageddon is quite different fro what we just saw. Rev. 19:11-16 - "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[sup]12 [/sup]His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[sup]13 [/sup]And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[sup]14 [/sup]And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[sup]15 [/sup]And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[sup]16 [/sup]And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

That event is the "day of the Lord" event, when Jesus returns "as a thief in the night." That's when God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked on earth, on the 7th Vial. Notice the 7th Vial itself is poured out into the "air" per Rev.16. That represents the ending of this present world time, the 2 Peter 3:10 event.

The word "Armageddon" of Rev.16 is actually Hebrew for 'hill of Meggido', a place north of Jerusalem. However, the word transliterated to Greek used two Greek words that mean 'to surround' and 'to pour out'. That's the Zephaniah 3 event, the Zech.14:1-2 event, the 1 Thess.5:2 event, the 2 Pet.3:10 event, the 2 Thess.2:1-2 event, the Matt.24:29-31 event, the Mark 13:24-27 event, the Rev.11:14-15 7th Trumpet - Third Woe event, etc. All the same event.

Trekson · Jul 29, 2012

Veteran, again we have reached a stalemate but I want you to know that I appreciate the time and effort you put into your responses.

Shilofoals. There is none so blind as he who would not see.

Arnie, No problem, thanks for the re-consideration and I look forward to future discussions.

veteran · Jul 29, 2012

Trekson said:
Veteran, again we have reached a stalemate but I want you to know that I appreciate the time and effort you put into your responses.

I see no stalemate. But if you don't want to continue, that's alright too.

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